MK5 Golf GTI
General => Random Chat => Topic started by: QD MBE on January 05, 2011, 12:23:49 pm
-
As above, I have just returned from France after visiting some friends.
We took the GF's A3 TDi and despite Mr Dunlops attempts to de-rail the whole trip, we arrived in one piece. (Both front tyres developed Bulges in the sidewall - Correct pressure - 1000 miles old etc)
We managed to get 2 PS2's from a French tyre place for 200€ fitted - Bargain 225/40/18's! he was selling cheap in order to fully stock the PS3 and the new sport tyre.
The weather was lovely, we left the UK at -2/+2 and when we arrived in the SW region of France it was +12, and had been getting warmer all the way. We spent a week with my friends and left yesterday morning and took a detour to visit a village called Oradour-Sur-Glanes.
The SS Panzer Division visited the village in June 1944, and when they left 6 hours later 642 people were dead.
I cannot express the feeling of the place, it has been left as it was in 1944, as a memorial to the dead. Sewing machines are still on tables, cars parked in court-yards, Bicycles hanging on walls, Tables and chairs litter the houses. The most poignant building was the Church, or what was left of it.
The SS herded all the women and children, and held them there, until they shot them, and set the place alight. The men were still alive at this point, having been shot in the legs, so they could not run etc, and so they could hear the women and children.
The village is NW of Limoges, and was virtually empty when we arrived. I have tried to convey the despair of the place, and have tried to explain each photo.
The Post office is one of the first buildings you come to. It was also the telephone switchboard. M Odette Boulliere was held and killed here, after she had been made to ensure they could still use the switchboard (manual in those days)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fv211%2Fstokeballoon%2FIMG_0518.jpg&hash=547ff5e70ac21b9222e325c404d484c0fc47fb4b)
Various cars like this are still in the driveways
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fv211%2Fstokeballoon%2FIMG_0620.jpg&hash=f2678b153bf498c241c8209dc3baf630adb2cdf2)
Village Garage
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fv211%2Fstokeballoon%2FIMG_0549.jpg&hash=01338e05acf12bf515920ce68b629a5cb3b48b4c)
Plaque in memorial to the Doctor and his son (his son was also a Doctor and was out on a call at the time, but arrived back during the massacre, he was stopped and when he was found to be from the village he was killed just like the rest - he apparently tried to escape by giving his residence as another village, but was found out - only important people drove cars in those days.)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fv211%2Fstokeballoon%2FIMG_0532.jpg&hash=3d495e1d4a5c6ae592fde8f6a272d403aa24a832)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fv211%2Fstokeballoon%2FIMG_0626.jpg&hash=99920803fe41115587bfc1eef9d489b482bd02fb)
Doctors sons car, still where it was stopped by the SS in the village square, the road it was on leads out of the village and away from the troops. The Desourteaux family was very well known and respected in the local community as pillars of the establishment. This theme of service to the community was continuing today on the 10th June, as the Mayor's son Jacques, also a Doctor like his father and great-grandfather before him was out of town visiting a patient when the SS arrived.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fv211%2Fstokeballoon%2FIMG_0630.jpg&hash=58a3a5c633117ca0ed3477f45f6f34321921df1a)
Village forge, with anvil and vice.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fv211%2Fstokeballoon%2FIMG_0569.jpg&hash=e1459901db647d0e1c704342b5828ea6cf24b5d5)
Village well, some bodies were found in the well.
All below are of the church.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fv211%2Fstokeballoon%2FIMG_0614.jpg&hash=c900c4748eb07b543616608f22146e7041a87cee)
^^^^ Bullet holes.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fv211%2Fstokeballoon%2FIMG_0609.jpg&hash=a868e674c5647f826fa0a0044b8178c88e5c6f79)
Confession box.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fv211%2Fstokeballoon%2FIMG_0604.jpg&hash=cddcc9f8d61a77bfbb80d2bac632da4801e2c540)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fv211%2Fstokeballoon%2FIMG_0606.jpg&hash=f6de86190c134c25776ab32be2eff619d35238e5)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fv211%2Fstokeballoon%2FIMG_0602.jpg&hash=fd08f44aa6e9d336c052cbe8be37ebec42e6e4e8)
Below are the Barbers shop including tables and chairs, and bright tiling.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fv211%2Fstokeballoon%2FIMG_0597.jpg&hash=3a79096e3acee93d44d60332b6e9af9b31313179)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fv211%2Fstokeballoon%2FIMG_0593.jpg&hash=42fe04c029f1ff3bde50601075c10b4169b15523)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fv211%2Fstokeballoon%2FIMG_0592.jpg&hash=14ae11a445e91a5399f3223a96877408342ad191)
The only glass left intact in the whole village was in a stable block, because the SS were using it as a billet, and it is still intact.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fv211%2Fstokeballoon%2FIMG_0583.jpg&hash=7fa8989e7ecda95d4982b83d5cbfb90950b37b3b)
General pics.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fv211%2Fstokeballoon%2FIMG_0548.jpg&hash=1e07e6f7dcc9b10e8920ac5e7912e6303525e4da)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fv211%2Fstokeballoon%2FIMG_0558.jpg&hash=8e7fc99765b5f8e0817bcf0061cf0e8256e5da26)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fv211%2Fstokeballoon%2FIMG_0543.jpg&hash=6a6bb37d38327a3f18f03a5ece7080ab97074589)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fv211%2Fstokeballoon%2FIMG_0602.jpg&hash=fd08f44aa6e9d336c052cbe8be37ebec42e6e4e8)
The experience of visiting the village has left me wanting to find out more. I only saw it on a history programme whilst snoozing off several pints of Cider. So glad I paid my respects.
-
Thanks for sharing this pics! Looks a very interesting place QD, I didnt know such a place existed but its good to see it has been left un-touched. I would be very interested to go there one day, pics are great at capturing so much but nothing like the actual atmosphere of being there.
I visted Auschwitz about 4-5 years ago...such a sobering place, atmosphere like ive never felt before. :sad1:
-
The background (short version):
The 2nd SS Panzerdivision Das Reich situated in the south of France gets march orders to go to Normandie as the allies has just landed there. On their way up north they are constanty being attacked by the french resistance so as a revenge the do the above action.
No SS person has ever admitted/acknowledged that SS had part in it. very sad chapter in the historybook :sad1:
-
.
I presume that the SS carried out such atrocities to that specific village for some reason? I'm not suggesting that such atrocities can be justified (they never can be) but was it random? Was it to set an example?
One one hand I can see the right in leaving such monuments to remember the dead, but on the other hand it propogates hatred of the German people by the French. Leaving Auschwitz standing isn't going to stop similar things happening again.
I saw an interesting docu this week about Albert Goring, Hermann's brother, who risked his life many times to save large amounts of Jews and similar from Nazi death in WW2, and yet Albert was badly treated by The Allies and after the war in spite of his heroic actions. We are still waiting for Israel to simply acknowledge Albert as one of the saviours of their people.
All mankind, not just the SS, can be such sh!ts.
P.S. - Just read Jake's reply:
The background (short version):
The 2nd SS Panzerdivision Das Reich situated in the south of France gets march orders to go to Normandie as the allies has just landed there. On their way up north they are constanty being attacked by the french resistance so as a revenge the do the above action.
No SS person has ever admitted/acknowledged that SS had part in it. very sad chapter in the historybook :sad1:
....My question answered :happy2:
-
very interesting reading and photo's dave,
unfortunately no lessons seem to have been learnt as history is littered with similar incidents.. just look at what the yanks did in My Lai, Vietnam
-
very interesting reading and photo's dave,
unfortunately no lessons seem to have been learnt as history is littered with similar incidents.. just look at what the yanks did in My Lai, Vietnam
........as above.Thanks for those.
-
Very moving story and great pics just shown my 14yo daughter and she was deffo moved... It's good to show young uns history like this -- shows where we've come from and where we could have been :notworthy: on a positive note they do make nice cars :popcornsoda:
-
Very poignant. More history here: http://www.oradour.info/ (http://www.oradour.info/)
-
My wife and I went there 18 months ago. It is very humbling experience and really makes your hairs stand up on the back of your neck.
What is weird that the place is totally silent as birds apprently do not congregate there.
Having also visited the d-day landing beaches, US cemetary and various items in the channel islands I think it is an essential these memorials are preserved as well as the learning experience espcially, as years go by the tales will not be passed down by grandparents/great grandparents to what life was like.
sadly like below as a world we do not seem to have be learning the lessons
-
Very moving read that Dave.. Like Mark says, the atmosphere in a place like that must remain in your memory for a very long time.
Just shows you what the world was like back then.. Yet we moan when there's a 2.5% rise in VAT... :confused:
-
I'll have to look out for that next time I'm down there.
I visited Compiègne Forest last time I was on my way down the the South and that was both facinating and chilling. If you know your history, it is significant in both wars and shows the level of spite the Nazis were capable of.
Along with a replica of the railway carriage in the museum (the original burnt by the Nazis) they have a massive archive of 3D picture of both wars. These are very graphic and tell the whole story of both wars from invasion to end, I don't mind admitting I had tears in my eyes looking through them, they're really shocking.
Both my grandfathers would never talk about WWII, I'm guessing I will never fully understand why, but I can see how it will have stayed with them for life.
-
My grandad never talked about the war either, but when he died my mum told me that he was a sniper and him and his mates got ambused and had to shoot their way out. He only told her when he was drunk one night. Maybe not true, but i like to believe it.
-
I personally never knew my granddad but he was a danish sailor that in the start of the war had his merchantship sunk by zee germans, got caught, managed to escape captivity and fled to UK and fought under english command during the rest of the war.
-
Excellent post I visited the village in november and was blown away by the place, it was torwards the end of a 3000 mile trip round europe encountering snow in germany and heavy rain the rest of the time. But the afternoon we arrived at oradour sur la glane the sun came out and it was a beautiful autumn day.
Hats off to the french for choosing to leave village as a memorial to those murdered, it would have been the easy option just to demolish it and rebuild. To build the new village ajacent to the ruins (you simply cross under the road to get from one to the other) seems to add something to the whole place.
I highly recommend a visit here not easy viewing, but important that we do not forget about such events.
For anybody interested in world war 2 history we also visited stalag luft III (scene of the great escape) in zagan in poland whilst on this trip and hitlers 'eagles nest' in berchtesgaden in germany and the mohane dam. Will start another post about these at the weekend with some pics not wanting to hijack this post.
-
I visted Auschwitz about 4-5 years ago...such a sobering place, atmosphere like ive never felt before. :sad1:
Ditto, people need to visit these kind of places to really see what hard life is. You will then realise you are very fortunate to have the life you do.
-
Nice piece & pics. One of the places that I need to visit. :sad1:
-
.
I don't agree with most posted so far. Of course build a monument where people can visit to pay their respects but why leave a morbid ruin or a whole death camp. It's not going to stop future atrocities and indeed hasn't. The Russians adopted one the Nazi camps straight after WW2, for example. Furthermore, I think it promotes prejudice against all the fellow nationals of those who committed such horrors. And it can't be mentally healthy for those villagers to have the reminders under their noses every day.
What's the morbid attraction? Is it like rubber necking when there's a M-way accident?
-
.
I don't agree with most posted so far. Of course build a monument where people can visit to pay their respects but why leave a morbid ruin or a whole death camp. It's not going to stop future atrocities and indeed hasn't. The Russians adopted one the Nazi camps straight after WW2, for example. Furthermore, I think it promotes prejudice against all the fellow nationals of those who committed such horrors. And it can't be mentally healthy for those villagers to have the reminders under their noses every day.
What's the morbid attraction? Is it like rubber necking when there's a M-way accident?
I must say i agree with RR. History is not forgotten if it wasn't there or better remembered by a place like that.
-
.
I don't agree with most posted so far. Of course build a monument where people can visit to pay their respects but why leave a morbid ruin or a whole death camp. It's not going to stop future atrocities and indeed hasn't. The Russians adopted one the Nazi camps straight after WW2, for example. Furthermore, I think it promotes prejudice against all the fellow nationals of those who committed such horrors. And it can't be mentally healthy for those villagers to have the reminders under their noses every day.
What's the morbid attraction? Is it like rubber necking when there's a M-way accident?
The attraction is being human, and wanting to find out about our history, and what made the world we live in and people that we live with.
Memorials such as this and the Menim Gate for instance convey the horror of war far far more effectively than any plaque on a wall in a Church or a Dedication website.
The Germans are not alone in these type of actions, we should closer to home for that.
But the Germans had a bloody good go at being the best, remember the holocaust? in fact the British Persecuted the Jews in the as far back as the 13th century, and the then King - Edward 1st of England forced the Jews to wear a yellow patch...............Sound familiar...........
-
Go and see them and see if you feel the same, I didnt find it morbid at all. We are still in the lifetime that there are people still alive that were affected directly by these acts but the future generations need to be reminded of what people can do to each other. More so that it doesnt happen again What of all these Battlefield tours or reinactments that go on, are they "rubber necking"?
I did not feel anti-german after visiting Aushwitz more a sense of mans own worst enemy is man. Its an educational thing I think and these events were attrocities so a simple stone memorial just doesnt suffice IMO.
-
Morbid? I don't think so without such places being left for people to visit I don't think they would be remembered except by a few, or even believed by some people. Just look at the people who try to deny the holocaust.
-
On a slightly off topic, but highly amusing note.
I had a friend in Munich - big, Australian and very brash, who also spoke fluent German and designed Air Traffic Control systems. :surprised:
Anyway we were travelling along the road in a taxi and my mate asks the driver in English what the monument in front of us was, pointing at the Siegestor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siegestor). The driver says Siegestor, my mate, knowing full well, says what does that mean and the driver says Winners Arch.
At this point I know where the conversation is heading and my mate didn't disappoint by pointing out that "you b'stards lost so how come winners arch?" :embarrassed:
Guess you had to be there really but I suppose the point is that these memorials are all over and none more poignant than some of the ones in Germany itself. I also agree that these things shouldn't be forgotten.
-
.
I don't agree with most posted so far. Of course build a monument where people can visit to pay their respects but why leave a morbid ruin or a whole death camp. It's not going to stop future atrocities and indeed hasn't. The Russians adopted one the Nazi camps straight after WW2, for example. Furthermore, I think it promotes prejudice against all the fellow nationals of those who committed such horrors. And it can't be mentally healthy for those villagers to have the reminders under their noses every day.
What's the morbid attraction? Is it like rubber necking when there's a M-way accident?
The attraction is being human, and wanting to find out about our history, and what made the world we live in and people that we live with.
Memorials such as this and the Menim Gate for instance convey the horror of war far far more effectively than any plaque on a wall in a Church or a Dedication website.
The Germans are not alone in these type of actions, we should closer to home for that.
But the Germans had a bloody good go at being the best, remember the holocaust? in fact the British Persecuted the Jews in the as far back as the 13th century, and the then King - Edward 1st of England forced the Jews to wear a yellow patch...............Sound familiar...........
....I absolutely see your point about more effectively communicating the horrors of war and don't disagree with that logic. Unfortunately such monumental exhibits don't seem to work other than to fill horror into the minds of those who would be anti-war anyway. My concern is how such places may fuel and extend prejudices which in turn help the propoganda used by those in power to demonise a perceived enemy. But I guess that some people will have their prejudices anyway. I still feel uncomfortable with the presence of such places though and the negative energy they exude. Still, no-one is forcing me to visit them. I remember having nightmares from being taken to see the torture dungeon at Warwick Castle as a youngster.
On the humanitarian aspects within warfare there's currently an excellent BBC2 true-life dramatisation about the ship Laconia and German U-boat - First part last night and conclusion tonight.
-
On a slightly off topic, but highly amusing note.
I had a friend in Munich - big, Australian and very brash, who also spoke fluent German and designed Air Traffic Control systems. :surprised:
Anyway we were travelling along the road in a taxi and my mate asks the driver in English what the monument in front of us was, pointing at the Siegestor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siegestor). The driver says Siegestor, my mate, knowing full well, says what does that mean and the driver says Winners Arch.
At this point I know where the conversation is heading and my mate didn't disappoint by pointing out that "you b'stards lost so how come winners arch?" :embarrassed:
Guess you had to be there really but I suppose the point is that these memorials are all over and none more poignant than some of the ones in Germany itself. I also agree that these things shouldn't be forgotten.
....Illustrating perhaps that it all depends on where and when you're born. Everyone believes that 'God', be it Christian, Allah, or whoever, is on their side.
These places makes excellent tourist attractions too.
A very good friend of mine whose father used to drive for Mr Hitler, took me on a tour when I stayed with her family. The atmosphere of where the Nuremberg rallies were held is mind blowing.
-
It wasn't a great deal of triggers that lead to the popularity of the Nazis and it is still something that is occurring, albeit in much smaller scale to this day. Deep recession & poverty, jealousy of immigrants, dented national pride. Ring any bells with the likes of Bosnia? Iraq? The corrupt elements of Africa? Genocide didn't stop with the Jews/Gypsies/non-Arian races at WWII (remember, the Holocaust wasn't just Jews being killed)... but seemingly even the Jews haven't learnt from what happened to them, arguably they're inflicting the same hate they received upon their neighbours in Palestine.
Look at the hate the BNP spread, yet their support is growing right here in the UK, where people in our lifetime died to protect us from the very same disgusting attitude.
It's only through learning we fully understand what we could not be there to witness ourselves. These memorials, museums, etc stand as a cold reminder and education of what happens when hate is allowed to rule and sacrifices have to be made to overcome.
-
^^^^
Yes, the Israeli treatment of Palestine really annoys me, considering that the Jews should know better than most what persecution is. Fecking religions! It all kicked off in that neck of the woods when the Brits set it up in the 1930's - Not Britain's finest hour.
-
RR, i was about to say that when the Brits gave palestine to the jews wasn't their finest hour. The thought was good but someone else lived there.
The Nazi regime can never be excused, but don't forget as mentioned above that religion is the biggest killer of them all, and noone tells the visitors of the churches how made has died in the name of the church or moske for that matter.
Religion kills more people than speed, cigarettes and alcohol together. Maybe about time to ban it also ?? :confused:
-
RR, i was about to say that when the Brits gave palestine to the jews wasn't their finest hour. The thought was good but someone else lived there.
The Nazi regime can never be excused, but don't forget as mentioned above that religion is the biggest killer of them all, and noone tells the visitors of the churches how made has died in the name of the church or moske for that matter.
Religion kills more people than speed, cigarettes and alcohol together. Maybe about time to ban it also ?? :confused:
....Agreed! :happy2:
I think that all of us here, plus zillions of other folks throughout the world, are anti war but it's the few in power, whether that be political or religious power, who act otherwise. And they use propaganda to persuade people too.
I have a question for those here who are in the forces (sorry if wrong term): Why did you join up? I'm not for a second suggesting that you support war mongering.
-
Great thread chaps. :smiley:
I think places like this should be kept this way forever. Once we stop respecting the dead the world will come to a swift end. Its one of the few things that separate us from animals. :happy2:
-
Without wanting to get into the political debate going on (which in itself is fascinating), great thread Dave. Excellent photos too. Very poignant and moving.