MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: Beddie on January 08, 2011, 10:20:29 pm
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Evening all
Had the first MOT done at my local dealer today and gutted to find out it failed! :sad1:
Reason for the failure was listed as the 'front brake hoses insecurely mounted', turns out that the HEL hoses i had fitted as part of my front S3 brake kit dont appear to have the correct clips or fittings to locate securely on the body mounted clip at the end of the hose?
The area thats the problem is the connection from the rigid hose coming out of the inner arch to the flexi hose, seems the oem hose has a clip or shaped hose fitting to allow it to be firmly held in place at this connection whereas the HEL ones dont?
Disappointingly my usually trusted installer failed to mention that there was a problem with the hoses when fitting them and secured it with cable ties! This has brought about the MOT failure due to the lines being able to move around to some degree and also raises the issue of flexing on the rigid pipe which is potentially a concern regarding fatigue on this part too...
So my question is what has everyone else done to overcome this problem when fitting braided hoses? My options are limited to trying some different hoses or buying some oem lines to get through the MOT but want to try and avoid having to mess about with a system that is working great apart from this issue...
Dealer has mentioned buying and fitting some oem hoses and will do me a reduced price on the swap over and bleeding etc to get within the 10 day retest timeframe but even that will cost £60 plus the parts :sad1:
Help would be greatly appreciated!
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get it MOT'd somewhere else
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get it MOT'd somewhere else
+1
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get it MOT'd somewhere else
+1
To be honest that was my first thought, only trouble is that the hose is quite obviously insecure so would most likely result in another fail and being out of pocket for another test fee and no further on? :sick:
Anyone else with HEL hoses, how are yours fixed?
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I agree, if you go somewhere else you'll need to pay another fee and may fail again. I suspect the cable tie draws attention.
Probably best to go with the £60 option to cover the MOT and then maybe discuss with the braided hose supplier as maybe they aren't the correct ones for the car.
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i would get it through its test with them and take the issue up with HEL or fit different braided hoses that have the clip
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2 Cable ties.
It really is as simple as that, I have seen this problem time and time again with modded cars and our MOT tester always fails them, as long as the cable tie holds the metal part of the union of the 2 sections of pipe securely in the bracket they cant fail it.
Wrap a cable tie from either side through the bracket in a figure of 8 pattern.
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Cable ties as PDT says, or if its the problem Im thinking ok, then there are OEM clips that will work to secure the line. If you look at the rear lines there is a black spring clip. Just buy a pair of them.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ft1.gstatic.com%2Fimages%3Fq%3Dtbn%3AANd9GcQpUFE5_qzjJ5EgujJsAMHHQ001M_tZN3oPJ5T2OFEyepYOSEdMlQ&hash=35addf31215fa5e06f9f5b9fa7f211c5c79a1680)
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Thanks for the replies and the ideas fellas! :happy2:
Had the car up and had a good look at the lines and even though they were only on with 1 cable tie they were pretty secure imo, but to be sure i've gone for 2 ties in a figure of 8 style and they are rock solid now!
Did notice something whilst doing it though which has me a little worried, 1 of the lines has started to crack on the outer sheath, should i be worried? lol :scared:
Before
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fv84%2Fbeddie%2Fbrakes1.jpg&hash=f0f51d8cbae82b73fbd65021d39040b904068248)
After
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fv84%2Fbeddie%2Fbrakes2.jpg&hash=5d26f42a4b1c7b6965da6ea8edbe3c5aaaba4a4a)
Cracks on the brake lines?
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fv84%2Fbeddie%2Fbrakes3.jpg&hash=c74fdbfa3d40b50663cba170f2a497109bf7d537)
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Thats exactly how I have done it in the past, never failed.
Those cracks are cosmetic.
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Mine failed on the porsche kit on my mk4 off DaveB for the same reason. The MOT tester just cable tied them and passed them :happy2:
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Beddie... To secure the hose to that mount you should have a brass clip/spring. That goes onto the HEL hose first before you screw it up to that bracket! Kind of acts like a spring to pull the cable down into the mount!
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Beddie... To secure the hose to that mount you should have a brass clip/spring. That goes onto the HEL hose first before you screw it up to that bracket! Kind of acts like a spring to pull the cable down into the mount!
Hmmmm.... There was nothing like that in the kit when i got it? Just the hoses in the box and a little bag with the copper washers in? :sad1:
Going to try another MOT place which is mod-friendly (i hope lol) as i really dont want to have to put oem hoses back on for performance reasons regardless of the extra cost and messing around involved to boot!
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Why don't you take it for the free retest first and if they fail it again (don't see why they would now), go to another mot test station?
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Are they secured to the strut as well? There would be clip etc on there for OEM hoses.
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Cracks on the brake lines?
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fv84%2Fbeddie%2Fbrakes3.jpg&hash=c74fdbfa3d40b50663cba170f2a497109bf7d537)
Keep an eye on these cracks, as in my experience they are indicative of the section of hose near the fitting flexing considerably, and disproportionately. I haven't bothered to look at my GTI but most OEM rubber hoses have an external spring to encourage the hose to progressively bend, and stop the bending load focusing on the section of hose in proximity to the fitting.
On a road car I previously had stainless lines on, I had similar cracks, which ultimately led to hose failure.
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Why don't you take it for the free retest first and if they fail it again (don't see why they would now), go to another mot test station?
The test was done at a VW dealer and they have stipulated that it will not be passed by them with cable ties now matter how secure... :fighting:
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Are they secured to the strut as well? There would be clip etc on there for OEM hoses.
Yeah the hoses have the correct clip for both the rear of the caliper bracket and the clip for the strut mid line, seems they are just missing the clip for the top joint that Rich has on his?
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Looks messy.
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Fook that. I would be putting some OEM R32 fronts on. :surprised:
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After my experience (diagonal brake circuit failure all of a sudden is a bit, err, entertaining), I'd never fit braided stainless to a road car, unless there was evidence the design had given some thought to the amount of articulation required of the hose.
I find the difference between stainless braided and OEM to be negligible on a road car, and the main difference people note I suspect is the fresh bleed required to fit the hoses.
I do use them on a track car where no OEM option exists, but the suspension travel is very limited, and I've installed the hoses such that the flexi to fitting is not involved in the bending.
If it were me, I'd put brand new OEM hoses on, especially as in this case it solves the MOT woe.
Best of luck.
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Just to add an opposing view to that ^^^^^
Those that know what they are looking for will instantly realise that this "major" cracking is purely of the outer sheath which is a decorative element which is not "structural" to the hose at all.
In fact its apparent that its doing its job which is to stop muck/crap/heat getting to the braided part of the line which up until goodridge/Hel started doing PVC coated lines about 3 years ago is all you could buy.
The PVC cover is available in 12 different colours from Barry Boy Corsa Pink through to Honda CTR Neon Green to the more sedate Carbon Effect finish chosen by my good self - Its simply there to keep the braid from corroding and getting mucky.
Bit like having your car vinyl wrapped and then panicking when a bird craps on your roof thinking the paint is going to get damaged......
In terms of length - Beddies HEL Lines mimic OEM exactly apart from an additional 85mm of length which replaces the zigzag hard line that enters the caliper, the lines have not one but two mid line fittings - one for the upright and the other to secure the line in the L shaped bracket that is bolted to the caliper - its secured in exactly the same way the OEM lines are.
Beddies lines from a hydraulic point of view are perfectly serviceable - I'll be having this checked through pressure testing - if you saw the machine that swaged these lines then you wouldn't be worried.
My own oversight has been not supplying the fitting spring that secures the line to the inner wing, causing Beddies tuner to "improvise"
Luckily Mr Bedford in all his wisdom remembered to send off his warranty card supplied with all HEL hoses back to the factory - this means that he's getting some new ones through HEL's LIFETIME warranty which is quibble free.....
Did everybody else remember to send their warranty card off?
Just to confirm if there is cracking in the PVC sheath then DONT PANIC and CARRY ON its just doing its job, OEM hoses would just be soaking up that heat and going all brittle - I know which ones I'd rather have fitted prior to a ring trip - I'd just be having them fitted properly without tie wraps but with the butterfly springs which weren't flagged as missing on install....
ps they're 30p each :ashamed:
Stevey boy give me a ring today we'll get BI all revved up
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Beddie...look at this picture! I know its not a golf etc etc... but it shows you the clip that your missing!
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_jhzHPFOcihI/TPoScswkUiI/AAAAAAAAApM/loM5AnqvT9M/s1600/IMG_3299.JPG
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If you look at my post #7 i have shown the oem clip that you need. Part number is 4D0 611 715B. We always keep these in stock for brake kits that dont come with the correct parts.
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Ohh yes... so you did! :happy2:
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I have a spare few sets of the HEL braided hoses for sale if its of any use ?
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How much are you after mate?
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How much are you after mate?
I have two full sets in transparent red, looking for about £50 for each
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg215.imageshack.us%2Fimg215%2F5852%2Fimagelpo.jpg&hash=6dd39646a5fa318ecdb2443d1e44b260aeae8ae5)
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Just to add an opposing view to that ^^^^^
Those that know what they are looking for will instantly realise that this "major" cracking is purely of the outer sheath which is a decorative element which is not "structural" to the hose at all.
In fact its apparent that its doing its job which is to stop muck/crap/heat getting to the braided part of the line which up until goodridge/Hel started doing PVC coated lines about 3 years ago is all you could buy.
The PVC cover is available in 12 different colours from Barry Boy Corsa Pink through to Honda CTR Neon Green to the more sedate Carbon Effect finish chosen by my good self - Its simply there to keep the braid from corroding and getting mucky.
Bit like having your car vinyl wrapped and then panicking when a bird craps on your roof thinking the paint is going to get damaged......
In terms of length - Beddies HEL Lines mimic OEM exactly apart from an additional 85mm of length which replaces the zigzag hard line that enters the caliper, the lines have not one but two mid line fittings - one for the upright and the other to secure the line in the L shaped bracket that is bolted to the caliper - its secured in exactly the same way the OEM lines are.
Beddies lines from a hydraulic point of view are perfectly serviceable - I'll be having this checked through pressure testing - if you saw the machine that swaged these lines then you wouldn't be worried.
My own oversight has been not supplying the fitting spring that secures the line to the inner wing, causing Beddies tuner to "improvise"
Luckily Mr Bedford in all his wisdom remembered to send off his warranty card supplied with all HEL hoses back to the factory - this means that he's getting some new ones through HEL's LIFETIME warranty which is quibble free.....
Did everybody else remember to send their warranty card off?
Just to confirm if there is cracking in the PVC sheath then DONT PANIC and CARRY ON its just doing its job, OEM hoses would just be soaking up that heat and going all brittle - I know which ones I'd rather have fitted prior to a ring trip - I'd just be having them fitted properly without tie wraps but with the butterfly springs which weren't flagged as missing on install....
ps they're 30p each :ashamed:
Stevey boy give me a ring today we'll get BI all revved up
Bloody Geek spoiling all the drama. :P
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just read your thread and your RFR just to make you and you can make your testing station aware:
a brake hose that is not correctly secured using orignal means i.e a spring clip BUT is secure is not a RFR (reason for refusal)
PS yes I am an MOT tester
Hope this helps mate :happy2:
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Just to add an opposing view to that ^^^^^
Those that know what they are looking for will instantly realise that this "major" cracking is purely of the outer sheath which is a decorative element which is not "structural" to the hose at all.
In fact its apparent that its doing its job which is to stop muck/crap/heat getting to the braided part of the line which up until goodridge/Hel started doing PVC coated lines about 3 years ago is all you could buy.
The PVC cover is available in 12 different colours from Barry Boy Corsa Pink through to Honda CTR Neon Green to the more sedate Carbon Effect finish chosen by my good self - Its simply there to keep the braid from corroding and getting mucky.
Bit like having your car vinyl wrapped and then panicking when a bird craps on your roof thinking the paint is going to get damaged......
In terms of length - Beddies HEL Lines mimic OEM exactly apart from an additional 85mm of length which replaces the zigzag hard line that enters the caliper, the lines have not one but two mid line fittings - one for the upright and the other to secure the line in the L shaped bracket that is bolted to the caliper - its secured in exactly the same way the OEM lines are.
Beddies lines from a hydraulic point of view are perfectly serviceable - I'll be having this checked through pressure testing - if you saw the machine that swaged these lines then you wouldn't be worried.
My own oversight has been not supplying the fitting spring that secures the line to the inner wing, causing Beddies tuner to "improvise"
Luckily Mr Bedford in all his wisdom remembered to send off his warranty card supplied with all HEL hoses back to the factory - this means that he's getting some new ones through HEL's LIFETIME warranty which is quibble free.....
Did everybody else remember to send their warranty card off?
Just to confirm if there is cracking in the PVC sheath then DONT PANIC and CARRY ON its just doing its job, OEM hoses would just be soaking up that heat and going all brittle - I know which ones I'd rather have fitted prior to a ring trip - I'd just be having them fitted properly without tie wraps but with the butterfly springs which weren't flagged as missing on install....
ps they're 30p each :ashamed:
Stevey boy give me a ring today we'll get BI all revved up
Bloody Geek spoiling all the drama. :P
Its a Monday so its Gleek night what do you expect except a bit of drama, anyway shuddup baldie :love: :wink:
Quick Pic of how the VAG10 hoses supplied by me attach to the caliper, the HEL official R32 hoses are shorter with only one mid line fitting, the VAG10's also have a 150 degree bend to the fitting that enters on the caliper, they're very custom. They also come (normally) with the clips and stainless banjo bolts and copper washers!
They're very secure and dont "flap about" as somebody suggested, these also attach to the strut and share the same path as the OEM hoses
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fw69%2Fdave_brown1970%2FDSC01174.jpg&hash=e7c29efedde7fd95d211f5d42bac3b4ce1f7ab06)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fw69%2Fdave_brown1970%2FDSC01175.jpg&hash=a57bdc1cb932a0622c13b9aead9ce41f5552097f)
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^^^^^
The fabled kitchen work surface :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy:
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Scratched really badly!! Even when the brakes have gone - Im still getting it in the neck every time she makes tea!
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Bit of a thread resurrection...
Does anyone have a pic of these clips fitted to the front brake hoses, when fitting braided hoses?
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ft1.gstatic.com%2Fimages%3Fq%3Dtbn%3AANd9GcQpUFE5_qzjJ5EgujJsAMHHQ001M_tZN3oPJ5T2OFEyepYOSEdMlQ&hash=35addf31215fa5e06f9f5b9fa7f211c5c79a1680)
I guess they go above the fixed bracket between the solid brake pipe?
Thanks
Jason
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Found the answer in Daz_pd's build thread:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fzz203%2Fdaz_pd%2F2011-12-14150633.jpg&hash=488e5778e13d361051cdc051ab5b2b78a143d120)
However, my line has 2 rubber mouldings. One sits in the bracket on the strut, just behind the caliper, secured by a clip. (pictured towards the left on the picture above).
The other one has no where to go.... Unless on the R32 there is an extra bracket somewhere?
Jas