MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Modifications & Technical Area => Performance Modifications => Topic started by: RagingKileak on February 01, 2011, 10:11:14 am
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Hello all,
As some of you might know, I now own Hurdy's old Edition 30, which I am currently returning to its former glory in terms of a comprehensive mods list. With that in mind, I've been reading for several days now about the various MK5 Suspension and Drivetrain Options available to me.
The car is back to Stage 2+ with a few other bits and pieces on top, including R32 brakes at the front and some of the safety/durability bits and pieces which I have forgotten, that were reccomended to me by John or elsewhere.
So, suspension/drivetrain wise...
The car still has Hurdy's LSD which would have been my first mod, as well as some Toyo R1R's which have loads of tread left having been garaged over winter. That's the first bit out of the way.
Next, I've considered suspension offerings in the form of Coilovers from KW and Eibach (I had a slammed M3 on Eibach Pro-Street in the past) but decided I would be unlikely to benefit from Coilovers, as I would never adjust them. Hence, I've decided that the Bilstein B12 kit MIGHT be best for me.... Again, in the BMW community, I have heard and had a lot of good experiences with PSS kits in particular (though again they are adjustable whilst I understand the B12 is not.)
I'm also looking into the WALK which I understand is essential and perhaps even an ARB upgrade.
Next question then, is which ARB and which brand? I was thinking a rear ARB uprade on it's own would suit me. I find the car understeers quite dramatically, especially compared to BMW's lol. I'd like to address that a little by bringing some neutrality, so can anyone confirm if a rear ARB will achieve that? If so, which brands would you reccomend as a good cost/quality balance?
So, would I find it beneficial to fit the WALK, ARB and B12 kit all at once? I expect labour would be less, but is it too much in one go?
Also, is there anything else I should/would benefit from doing at the same time.... Engine mounts etc?
Considering it is a Stage 2+ car, I don't want to leave anything undone that would offer a massive benefit. I love the sledgehammer of power that the car delivers, but the understeer is proving painful for me, whilst the generally crashy yet rolly nature of the suspension means I am never quite at ease.
I'd also like to hope that the WALK and everything else combined will help me to be more progressive (read, rapid) as I accelerate through corners.
Thanks for reading and any help in advance.
Regards
Matt
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what parts did John leave on the car other than LSD? it might still have good arbs and walk kit fitted to it
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what parts did John leave on the car other than LSD? it might still have good arbs and walk kit fitted to it
Nah, doesn't look like it mate. I had a good chat with John and he reckons it all came off (except a dog bone exhaust mount which he forgot about and a Forge thing which I can't remember the name of that was buried deep in the engine.) I've also been under the car and I don't think there is anything else there... The garage which took it back to standard also do all the work I have had done and they reckon it was back to near-as-damnit stock before I modded it.
I hope not anyway, because there is a lot of room for improvement.
Regards
Matt
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IIRC that's the Forge actuator that John has on there - a real sod to get in to change back to stock, hence why it was left on there. Am pleased with H&R arbs on mine, I know SteveP had these on his too. Have you consider TT lowers arms too?
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It is the Forge Actuator mate.
Then the other thing is something I bought off John a couple of weeks ago. It sits right at the front of the engine bay and does something a bit like a catch can I think.... Anyway, that's of no importance to suspension!!
H&R were definitely on my list - what effect have they had on feel and handling? How much did they set you back mate, if you don't mind me asking?
TT arms I've NOT considered, but I have read about. What's the benefit of those? I'll do it all at once if it's worth doing TBH.
Regards
Matt
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Suspension, WALK and arb (rear) are 3 seperate operations so no money saved by doing one or all three at one time. But the TT mk2 lower control arms along with the WALK is labour saved as the WALK are to be fitted to the lower control arms.
Benefits of the TT mk2 lower arms is adjustable camber, lower unsprung weight and wider track as they are longer than the mk 5 ones. :happy2: :drinking:
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Suspension, WALK and arb (rear) are 3 seperate operations so no money saved by doing one or all three at one time. But the TT mk2 lower control arms along with the WALK is labour saved as the WALK are to be fitted to the lower control arms.
Benefits of the TT mk2 lower arms is adjustable camber, lower unsprung weight and wider track as they are longer than the mk 5 ones. :happy2: :drinking:
Thanks mate,
And don't worry - I will reply to your PM shortly. I just don't have anything useful to say just yet - wheels are off though.
Matt
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no worries, all in due time :drinking:
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no worries, all in due time :drinking:
You must have dealt with the English before lol.
Matt
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I'd go for the Bilstein coilovers - You might not want to keep adjusting them but it's useful to be able to tweak easily and then leave as is.
WALK and most definitely ARB's but I'm not sure about the TT arms: I don't see how you can avoid some uneven tyre wear if you add camber and wouldn't you also be well advised to change the hubs?
Easier to do the ARB's while working on the suspension.
Out of interest, would you have bought Hurdy's car if it was being offered still with its mods fitted? (assuming the price was acceptable).
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... I'm not sure about the TT arms: I don't see how you can avoid some uneven tyre wear if you add camber ...
RedRobin, VW advices camber up to -2.15' on the back. If they say this is normal, I don't think we should be concerned going to that value (even in the front). Also under cornering the camber changes and we get more positive results.
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robin do you think arbs are a must?
full setup or just the back?
wots the best arbs out there?
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... I'm not sure about the TT arms: I don't see how you can avoid some uneven tyre wear if you add camber ...
RedRobin, VW advices camber up to -2.15' on the back. If they say this is normal, I don't think we should be concerned going to that value (even in the front). Also under cornering the camber changes and we get more positive results.
....Yes, but there are reasons why the Mk5 GTI has more camber on the back than the front.
I'm getting my car aligned and tracked on a Hunter rig next Wednesday so I'll report what I'm advised about cambers.
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robin do you think arbs are a must?
full setup or just the back?
wots the best arbs out there?
.... :laugh: < I'm laughing about your 'must' question. None of our mods are a 'must' BUT....
Once you're on that slippery slope of modding and you've got ARBs you'll then think it was a great thing to do. I would definitely go for front and back if only so you can fine tune their effect later. They contribute a lot to the suspension and help keep you more flatly planted.
Having only experienced Eibach ARBs on my car I can't say which ARBs are the best but there are quite a few to choose from that are as equally good as each other. H&R are well thought of on this forum.
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....Yes, but there are reasons why the Mk5 GTI has more camber on the back than the front.
Please enlighten us Obi-Wan. :popcornsoda:
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Has anyone mentioned brakes and engine mounts in this thread yet? - All part of the suspension and drivetrain. :evilgrin:
I advise doing mods bit by bit so you understand better the effect of each and also in the perhaps unlikely event you raise a problem it's easier to diagnose and correct. It is also kinder on your wallet - Wifey: "What the heck has happened to all that money we saved for the new kitchen!?". The word "we" means something different in the female dictionary.
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Agree.
Another point is that I might like a setup and someone else might like a different setup.
The reason for different camber is from front to back is, in my opinion, the manufacturer's desire to make the car stable and rather understeer than oversteer. Because I fell the need for more camber doesn't mean that all of us should. I checked my tires and fount that the outer part was worn more than the interior. This means I need more negative camber. Everybody can easy check if they need more or less camber if they check the temperature of the tires (the outer part, the inner part and the middle). If the outer part temperature is higher than the inner temperature than more negative camber is required. If the middle part has a higher temperature than the outside's than the tires are overinflated.
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....Yes, but there are reasons why the Mk5 GTI has more camber on the back than the front.
Please enlighten us Obi-Wan. :popcornsoda:
....I didn't say that I actually knew the reasons :laugh:
I have been told many moons ago and have forgotten the detail but think it's something to do with the Mk5's rear suspension arms etc. I'm having my car aligned and tracked on a Hunter rig next Wednesday and will ask and let folks know.
Btw, @ Matt the OP: Always get your car aligned etc after a suspension mod. Hunter laser rigs are reputed to be the very best.
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cheers mate
where are you going to get you car aligned and tracked at
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cheers mate
where are you going to get you car aligned and tracked at
....Denmead: Not far up the A3 from JKM Portsmouth and highly recommended by JKM. They align all sorts including Ferrari's and full-on race cars. They're a small family business (like JKM) and talking on the phone to them it's clear they take a great pride in and enjoy what they do.
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Agree.
Another point is that I might like a setup and someone else might like a different setup.
The reason for different camber is from front to back is, in my opinion, the manufacturer's desire to make the car stable and rather understeer than oversteer. Because I fell the need for more camber doesn't mean that all of us should. I checked my tires and fount that the outer part was worn more than the interior. This means I need more negative camber. Everybody can easy check if they need more or less camber if they check the temperature of the tires (the outer part, the inner part and the middle). If the outer part temperature is higher than the inner temperature than more negative camber is required. If the middle part has a higher temperature than the outside's than the tires are overinflated.
....Absolutely, we each have our own preferences. Mine is for feeling taut and tactile even at the expense of a little comfort: Hard but not harsh. It makes me feel more confident and less caccooned.
Isn't a gadget for measuring the temperatures across different sections of a tyre fairly specialised? The nearest I get to that is a TyreSure monitor with sensors in each wheel which relays pressure and temp for each individual tyre to a small display. It of course only provides one temperature value but does so every 5 seconds. It won't help with assessing any need for more/less camber.
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The device is called "Pirometer" (I hope this is the English name) and from what I understand is a very very useful device for camber setup and tire pressure setup.
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The device is called "Pirometer" (I hope this is the English name) and from what I understand is a very very useful device for camber setup and tire pressure setup.
....Correctly spelt pyrometer (but don't worry, your spelling is better than many English people!).
Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrometer
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I think this thread has become rather more helpful overnight, shame I missed it.
I personally doubt I will do the TT arms as part of any 'Stage 1' suspension mod. It seems like a big parts price before labour, with perhaps less apparent result than ARB's or an uprated Springs/Shocks set.
I'm keen to know more about the bang per buck opinions on one set of ARB's vs another. In BMW land, thicker is not always better and I'm guessing some adjust and others don't etc. What's fitting like on the front and rear with the MK5?
Also coilies vs a good fixed kit. Thats a tough one... I don't see any evidence that 'enough' R&D has gone into any fixed set, eg the B12 kit. Plus of course there is my weight etc which needs to be accounted for.... Coilovers are typically overkill for me though. I know for an absolute fact that I'll never change the setup following the initial purchase.
Brakes wise I have R32 brakes which seem fine, albeit heavy. I'd have bought the car from John modded yes, though not with NOS and probably not with the tenpot brakes.... both are a step too far. Oh, Engine Mounts I've definitely considered too, but not in this 'phase' really.
My nearest hunter machine is in wakefield. I went there to setup my M3 for the track and will do so for the MK5 too.
Cheers so far.
Matt
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....Yes, but there are reasons why the Mk5 GTI has more camber on the back than the front.
Please enlighten us Obi-Wan. :popcornsoda:
....I didn't say that I actually knew the reasons :laugh:
It builds understeer Robin which to Joe Public is a far safer and more progressive way of telling them they have overcooked it. :P
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Matt,
it's your own decision to choose the right parts. Nobody else will know what's best for
you. Driving, steering, ride comfort - all a question of personal taste.
Coilover B14 or just B12? I don't know what's right for you but I'd go für the B14 then.
ARBs? I've chosen the 28/24 mm H&R, but if TÜV wouldn't be a problem I would have
done it like Rex did (26 + 24 mm) or I'd gone for the APR or Hotchkis (27/27 mm hollow).
H&R advantages:
- excellent Quality
- very stiff (28/24 mm almost 3 x stiffer than stock)
- Teflon lining bushings
- TÜV
Before I got the H&R I thought a stiffer ARB in the rear is more important.
So first I adjusted them soft front and stiff rear.
But this wasn't the best for my car and my taste. The stiff setup front & rear
improved turn in without disturbing traction too much.
But this is choise and my taste. :wink:
It depends from the suspension as well. There will be a difference between
stock and a KW Clubsport.
As well important:
Whiteline ALK, TT arms and hubs, performance tyres like PSS or even semi slicks.
.
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... I'm not sure about the TT arms: I don't see how you can avoid some uneven tyre wear if you add camber ...
RedRobin, VW advices camber up to -2.15' on the back. If they say this is normal, I don't think we should be concerned going to that value (even in the front). Also under cornering the camber changes and we get more positive results.
....Yes, but there are reasons why the Mk5 GTI has more camber on the back than the front.
I'm getting my car aligned and tracked on a Hunter rig next Wednesday so I'll report what I'm advised about cambers.
what he is saying RR is that if the cars can run -2.15' on the rear without accelerated tyre wear or uneven tyre wear then it will be fine to use that amount of camber and more on the fronts.
and Ian has already mentioned why the cars run more rear camber normally
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what he is saying RR is that if the cars can run -2.15' on the rear without accelerated tyre wear or uneven tyre wear then it will be fine to use that amount of camber and more on the fronts.
.... :drinking: Cheers, Sy.
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Thank you for translating :happy2:. I might need a translator after all :innocent:.
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but if TÜV wouldn't be a problem I would have done it like Rex did (26 + 24 mm)
As I understand I have TUV for both bars instead of one for the whole kit.
I just didn't like the available kits and wanted something in between. And so I ordered the bars separately (this was more expensive, of course).