MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: Russ_leeds on February 20, 2011, 10:24:39 pm
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Since i fitted my itg last week ive noticed a flat spot at around 5k. what could be the cause of this? will the map need adjusting? i thought the maf would adjust accordingly? or could it be something like the dv as it is running 260bhp and 312ftlb :evilgrin:
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Is this a k03 turbo?
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Could be a whole number of reasons.
Ideally you need to log the car to find what it's doing at that rpm
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yeah k03 mate
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I had a flat spot which got progressively worse across the rev range, this was months after the remap so it wasn't that.........
After some logging it was diagnosed as a knackered DV - you can see from the picture it doesn't look healthly - its a different car now, and they are only 50ish quid from the stealer for the piston type revision 'D'. :happy2:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi936.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fad203%2Fpagey1255%2FDVSplit1.jpg&hash=6262f2a4c5b87a798b48a3bf00d4c2935acd0fdf)
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whos the map with?
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could be a number of things, i had a flat spot at 5k for about 12 months on my old gti, changed all the sensors and did logs and still couldnt find it, so i put an edition 30 engine in it and found out once the engine was removed that the turbo had cracked. :driver: :rolleye:
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the map is a stage 1 map from pdt. it ran 258bhp and 312ftlb on his dd rollers. ive only noticed the flat spot since fitting the maxogen
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If it is a "custom map" from PDT would the settings not need to be changed if you have more air going through it with the maxogen
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possibly but mite aswell wait and get stage 2+ next time i go :signLOL: just have to save up for the rest of the mods :signLOL:.
i was thinking of changing the dv as i dont get a flutter sound more of a dump sound with the intake
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I had a flat spot @ 5900rpm, I told my tuner and he made a new stronger map for me with zero problems :star:
The Trueseal makes no difference to the smoothness of the drive, it just gives a little more torque/power on mine.
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the map is a stage 1 map from pdt. it ran 258bhp and 312ftlb on his dd rollers. ive only noticed the flat spot since fitting the maxogen
Holy s**t! Are them figures accurate? That's more torque than some stage 2+ cars are producing, and bhp is stage 2 territory............... :surprised:
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yeah mate they're right i was well happy to say the least :driver:
its on dd rollers too i have the graph here but its not on my pc. i wonder if PDT has it and could post it up if he reads this?
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Had they been on independant rollers id believe them :P
Reference the maxogen intake. The ECU will adjust in about 50 miles or so Mine had horrific flat spots on it after fitting the intake. Mainly as the car will now be getting a huge influx of air compared to before so the air fuel ratio will be out for a while until it adjusts. After about 50 miles of mixed (normal/aggressive) driving the ECU adapted and it was fine. You shouldnt need any map tweaks
BTW with your 258Hp and the extra 10-15Hp from the maxogen (usual gains for an intake) it looks like you may have the most powerful stage 1 K03 TFSI ever, by about 30-40hp :wink: :P
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i know the figures are high i was doubtfull at first but my mate has a megane sport 225 stage 2 @ 274bhp and 335ftlb and theres absolutely nothing in them neck and neck. search for a topic by pdt calles 'how much power from stage 1 k03 more than you may think'. this thread has graphs of the first car which actually got a couple more bhp than me i think. my car was the second to be done with this map
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i cant find the topic :ashamed: it was called something along those lines
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Amateur :P
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,18861.0.html
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:happy2: :booty:
hahaha dunno where i went wrong :signLOL: cheers mate. anyone live in leeds with vcds?
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Was easy.
Click search, Type - Power from Stage 1, Click search
Was second result that came up :innocent:
Have a look at the VCDS register there are a couple of members near by. I think Darren (MortyGTTDi) is nearby. :happy2:
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Hi Russ,
Usually the addition of an intake wont need any extra changes to the map, however theory is one thing, reality is another. Some logging should show up the cause of the flatspot but my guess is that you have hit the limit of the fuel pump and you are experiencing a slight lack of fuel which will cause the ECU to hold back the ignition advance and boost.
After sales support is free so call us for a chat if you wish, we can do some datalogging (free) and find the cause but there may be someone closer that has a vagcom lead and you can send me the logs to take a look at.
Dave@PDT
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cheers. yeah i sent darren a pm but dont know if he's seen it yet.
@dave
cheers if i cant get it scanned ill try get up at some point
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perhaps he's hitting the dreaded fuel cut...now with extra air/great dose of boost to achieve those mega numbers...the fuel pump can't keep up!!!!!
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perhaps he's hitting the dreaded fuel cut...now with extra air/great dose of boost to achieve those mega numbers...the fuel pump can't keep up!!!!!
That was my guess as well. :happy2:
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perhaps he's hitting the dreaded fuel cut...now with extra air/great dose of boost to achieve those mega numbers...the fuel pump can't keep up!!!!!
That was my guess as well. :happy2:
Fair point, and would definitely be valid for stage 2, but on a stage 1! Ive not heard of fuel cut on a stage 1 map before. Surely not a good trait. @ PDT What rail pressure do you request on your stage 1, is it the full 130bar? Ive had 2 different brands of stage 1, Shark, and Bluefin, and seen the logs for stage 1 APR and Jabba tuned cars. They request around 110-120bar max giving plenty off leeway in the standard pump and injectors
i know the figures are high i was doubtfull at first but my mate has a megane sport 225 stage 2 @ 274bhp and 335ftlb and theres absolutely nothing in them neck and neck. search for a topic by pdt calles 'how much power from stage 1 k03 more than you may think'. this thread has graphs of the first car which actually got a couple more bhp than me i think. my car was the second to be done with this map
What i see in that thread is good publicity. Im just abit perplexed at how all of sudden you can gain 20+hp over the leading tuners such as REVO, APR, GIAC etc. I mean thats a huge improvement on what are already classed as the top end maps that out perform pretty much all the other maps.
Personally i dont buy it, until i see the results replicated on an independent DD rolling road, i will of course retract all the above if im proven wrong though. However i suspect a sudden loss of Hp. Thats not a bad thing though, that would just pull it back in line with the expected gains
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Could be PDT's inability with VCDS and he has ticked a magic box somewhere by accident Or maybe his straps are made of Bungee cord :grin:
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loose strapping is awesome for bragging rights, we all know that
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi208.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb291%2Fkiller7_123%2Fth_DSCF2237.jpg&hash=a51cb8c19188e49972ca9e01737c3d89e0bd6b6f) (http://s208.photobucket.com/albums/bb291/killer7_123/?action=view¤t=DSCF2237.flv)
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:signLOL: the car was strapped down properly i can assure you. once i get the new dv fitted i might take it to rs tuning for a second dd opinion
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Did he have "Land of Make Believe" playing in the background whilst doing the dyno runs :laugh:
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:signLOL: the car was strapped down properly i can assure you. once i get the new dv fitted i might take it to rs tuning for a second dd opinion
The only way your going to get a decent comparison, would be to have another KO 3 on the rollers straight after you. I got 259 at RS tuning at stage 2 then went on PDT's at 2+ and got 249. if my calculation's are correct you should get 480BHP at RS. :laugh:
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I reckon PDT should organise a RR day if we all get an extra 20bhp :grin: :grin:
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I reckon PDT should organise a RR day if we all get an extra 20bhp :grin: :grin:
Are you saying my car is only 229bhp. :grin:
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another way i see it.
stage 2 on average yields around a 20hp gain over a stage 1 map.
stage 2+ on average yields around a 20hp/20lbft gain over stage 2 map
on a non PDT map(like the low powered revo variety :laugh:) your looking at 240hp @ stage 1( with intake), 260 stage 2 (with an intake and exhaust), 280hp stage 2+(with intake, exhaust HPFP)
on your PDT map your on 258Hp stage 1, so stage 2 from above would be 278hp and stage 2+ would be 298hp
hmmm...
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I reckon PDT should organise a RR day if we all get an extra 20bhp :grin: :grin:
Are you saying my car is only 229bhp. :grin:
:signLOL:
I think it depends on what Song is playing when you go.
If it's "Land of Make Believe" you get an extra 20+ Bhp.
Anything else and you lose power :grin:
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another way i see it.
stage 2 on average yields around a 20hp gain over a stage 1 map.
stage 2+ on average yields around a 20hp/20lbft gain over stage 2 map
on a non PDT map(like the low powered revo variety :laugh:) your looking at 240hp @ stage 1( with intake), 260 stage 2 (with an intake and exhaust), 280hp stage 2+(with intake, exhaust HPFP)
on your PDT map your on 258Hp stage 1, so stage 2 from above would be 278hp and stage 2+ would be 298hp
hmmm...
:grin: :grin: :grin:
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on your PDT map your on 258Hp stage 1, so stage 2 from above would be 278hp and stage 2+ would be 298hp
hmm, I wonder if I have a PDT map... :laugh:
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:evilgrin:
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:evilgrin:
:signLOL: :signLOL: :signLOL:
Fcuk me i just spat my drink all over the lounge. Forum Gold :congrats: :congrats:
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:grin: :grin: outstanding love a good sing song
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To be fair it doesn' seem credible, but i am sure a time will come were Russ is at an independent rolling road, along with another GTI to verify. Dave could leave us all with egg on our faces. :happy2:
And remember the Doc regularly gets 300 BHP on rollers. :scared:
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To be fair it doesn' seem credible, but i am sure a time will come were Russ is at an independent rolling road, along with another GTI to verify. Dave could leave us all with egg on our faces. :happy2:
And remember the Doc regularly gets 300 BHP on rollers. :scared:
I'll name the dyno and even pay for the run :wink: :happy2:
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I'll come along too as i have JKM logs to prove my car has 270bhp so can use that as a comparison :smiley:
Ian don't worry i'll pay for my own run :laugh:
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ill pay for the pop corn.
Would this be enough for us all
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ft0.gstatic.com%2Fimages%3Fq%3Dtbn%3AANd9GcSAbalrlG1aBygiXgyLFpPgQStqY6tH3we-wCxv-Iiq5XePBPZv%26amp%3Bt%3D1&hash=4415952a45a8a8d87a99280cd9538c20f34b0a5a)
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Will that fit in the Homomobile :confused: :evilgrin:
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Mail order delivery to JKM
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Will that fit in the Homomobile :confused: :evilgrin:
It will probably run on it :wink:
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Will that fit in the Homomobile :confused: :evilgrin:
It will probably run on it :wink:
:grin: :grin: :grin:
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had enough of you two ganging up on me
ill get a PDT map and then ill show you...
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So your not only getting a Homomobile your going to break it :chicken: :confused:
:evilgrin:
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break the sound barrier i reckon.
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By blowing the engine :innocent:
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this thread started off so well :grin:
back on topic of huge figures theres a RR day @ RS tuning here in may http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,25611.msg332706.html#new (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,25611.msg332706.html#new)
Even if they do read high its comparable against the other cars running (normally) :laugh:
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u lot are mad as the mad hatter :signLOL:
as i said ill gladly take it to rs tuning once i get the new dv fitted next month. i only wanted to know what might be causing the flat spot not be ripped to sh*t :sad1:
so whos going to rs in may?
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ok so i have asked darren to do some logging of the car. which blocks in paticular should we be logging?
cheers Russ
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ok so i have asked darren to do some logging of the car. which blocks in paticular should we be logging?
cheers Russ
I would do at minimum blocks 115 (boost actual/requested), 020 (CF on cylinders 1-4) and 106 (Fuel Rail Pressure)
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cheers which blocks would show timing pull and is there anything else i should be aware of?
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I'd do the full logs on here then you have a set of logs you can refer to in the future if you get any issues
#
http://www.goapr.com/support/datalogging.php (http://www.goapr.com/support/datalogging.php)
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cheers which blocks would show timing pull and is there anything else i should be aware of?
Block 020 will show timing pull.
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@PDt what rail pressure do you request with your maps @ stage 1?
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Rail pressure demand will vary as every car is mapped on its own merits, we dont have a generic stage 1 or 2 ready made setting. But typically 112-120 bar if no uprated fuel pump is fitted. We do request about .2 bar more boost than revo stage 1 when set to 9.
Power from car to car will vary, my own k03 gti made about 240ish stock on stage 1 equivalent and 263 stage 2 with intake and downpipe. Look at the variations in stage 2+ k04 for example, some struggle to see 350hp whilst others with the same supporting mods on the same dyno can achieve 380hp.
And stage 1 with 250+ bhp isnt rare, I have tested k03 cars with maps from plenty of tuners (mainly independant and not the big names) that make 250-260hp, just because the big names cant/dont push them this hard with their ready made maps it doesnt mean it cant be done. with a few hours of dyno tuning a custom map will often outperform the big brands.
The dyno at RStuning reads virtually identically to our new dyno ( we tested a car this week that made 178hp and 272ft/lb there and 181/275 on ours so would be a good comparison test. This is to be expected as nearly every dyno dynamics reads the same (except JKM who I see getting results far lower due to the way they run the cars, which incidentally different to every other dyno dynamics operator I have seen, but the method of strapping is a debate that will go on for ever. Most however stick to the reccomended method that dyno dynamics train you to use) and other than strapping there is no way to make a dyno dynamics dyno give a false reading that isnt clearly obvious on the dyno graph i.e altering the barometric pressures or intake temperatures in the dyno software.
Its easy for people to sit behind a computer and dissbelieve russ's figures but thats life, but until his logs are taken the cause of his problem since fitting the intake are unknown, but my guess is that he is getting fuel cuts.
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Do DD train operators to allow the car to rise up on the roller?
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FWIW my car made the same figures as JKM on 3 separate DD rollers. Also judging by the rolling road days on here surrey rolling road gives the same results as JKM as well.
What is it in your opinion that makes JKM read so low?
The reason i asked about the rail pressure, is you thought the issue with the OP sounded like fuel cut, which on a stage 1 car is not a regular occurrence. in fact that s pretty much un heard of now. It did happen when the tuners first got their hands on the TFSI and started finding the limits of it, but not anymore
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The car should be run so that the wheel leaves the rear roller, this eliminates the risk of over tight straps, once the rear idler roller isnt in contact with the tyre the strapping tension wont have any effect on the power output, if the tyre stays in contact with the rear roller then the car coukd be trapped too tight. The only way to ensure every car is tested in the same way is to use this method, this is the way we have been trained by DynoDynamics on 2 occasions, today DynoDynamics were at our London outlet installing and training the staff there on the new 2wd system they have just bought, they were trained to use the exact same method.
Heres an extract from an Unofficial DD guide written by a highly regarded dyno operator:
The Climbing Effect and Strapping
How hard a car is strapped down will have an effect on all dyno's including the Dyno Dynamics.
If a car is strapped down hard on a base run and then 'looser' on the one after a small-medium difference will be shown in the output.
The problem here is that a car may be totally non-moving on a dyno and this can be done without you ever knowing the strap tension. How are you going to know how hard a car is strapped if it's not moving around?? No way of telling!
The Solution is simple and we use it.
Allow the car to mount the front roller completely leaving the rear one. Once the car has mounted the front roller, it doesn't matter where it sits on it because the reading will be the same.
So not scare the hell out of customers we just allow them to leave the rear roller by about an inch.
The overall benefit is that you achieve maximum grip and strap tension doesn't come into it. All the dyno operator has to do is hold the car back once it's moved forward a very small amount.
You totally cancel out the effects of strap tension!
With all of the above you should have no issues. There are no other hidden secrets other than the obvious ones:
- not pressing the throttle all the way down on the base line run (difficult to deal with!)
- Applying the brakes lightly on the base line run (Stand at the rear of the car if it's safe)
- Changing the ramp rate between runs - will be displayed on your print outs.
If anyone has any questions please do not hesitate to ask.
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The reason i asked about the rail pressure, is you thought the issue with the OP sounded like fuel cut, which on a stage 1 car is not a regular occurrence. in fact that s pretty much un heard of now. It did happen when the tuners first got their hands on the TFSI and started finding the limits of it, but not anymore
We will run as much boost as possible before requested boost excessively exceeds the airflow that the engine can produce, the requested fuel is then mapped to give a safe AFR. The fuel cut problem will occur if airflow is increased by improving the intake, then as a safety precaution the ECU will reduce timing and/or boost as the fuel system cant supply enough fuel, the map can either be altered to avoid this by reducing requested boost levels or improving fuel supply. This is where a device such as the sps switch from revo is usefull as you can reduce boost slightly to compensate for the increased airflow, however people usually add intakes to imorove power, not lose it by removing boost to compensate for the lack of fuel. hence the popularity of the HPFP upgrades.
I think people are getting a little hung up on the whole 'stage' tuning thing, we tune for each individual car, not by a pre determined stage to dictate peak boost and other factors.
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The car should be run so that the wheel leaves the rear roller, this eliminates the risk of over tight straps, once the rear idler roller isnt in contact with the tyre the strapping tension wont have any effect on the power output, if the tyre stays in contact with the rear roller then the car coukd be trapped too tight. The only way to ensure every car is tested in the same way is to use this method, this is the way we have been trained by DynoDynamics on 2 occasions, today DynoDynamics were at our London outlet installing and training the staff there on the new 2wd system they have just bought, they were trained to use the exact same method.
Heres an extract from the DD guide:
The Climbing Effect and Strapping
How hard a car is strapped down will have an effect on all dyno's including the Dyno Dynamics.
If a car is strapped down hard on a base run and then 'looser' on the one after a small-medium difference will be shown in the output.
The problem here is that a car may be totally non-moving on a dyno and this can be done without you ever knowing the strap tension. How are you going to know how hard a car is strapped if it's not moving around?? No way of telling!
The Solution is simple and we use it.
Allow the car to mount the front roller completely leaving the rear one. Once the car has mounted the front roller, it doesn't matter where it sits on it because the reading will be the same.
So not scare the hell out of customers we just allow them to leave the rear roller by about an inch.
The overall benefit is that you achieve maximum grip and strap tension doesn't come into it. All the dyno operator has to do is hold the car back once it's moved forward a very small amount.
You totally cancel out the effects of strap tension!
With all of the above you should have no issues. There are no other hidden secrets other than the obvious ones:
- not pressing the throttle all the way down on the base line run (difficult to deal with!)
- Applying the brakes lightly on the base line run (Stand at the rear of the car if it's safe)
- Changing the ramp rate between runs - will be displayed on your print outs.
If anyone has any questions please do not hesitate to ask.
That's not from DD but from a BMW Tuner who uses the DD rollers
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,10198.0.html
Whereas JKM Say:
http://www.jkm.org.uk/performance/dynotesting.htm
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:grin:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftechbuddha.files.wordpress.com%2F2008%2F11%2Fvader-fail.jpg&hash=e07955511ce312e49b78cf20fa27903a21f64ec2)
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It was re-posted by a bmw tuner. Its posted on hundreds of websites, but is factually correct and is how DD train their operators to run a car. It was part of a guide that we were emailed in 2005.
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Well if thats how JKM strap the cars its certainly not how DD train you to do so, but strapping methods are down to the individual operators not the manufacturers of the dyno.
The problem with strapping so that the wheel doesnt move away from the idler roller is that the car can be strapped too tight without knowing it and the rear roller adds extra losses to the end result as the idler roller is just that, a roller designed to be in contact with the tyre when the car is idle.
Edit:
To settle the argument on strapping methods once and for all, I have sent a link to this post to DynoDynamics Uk's tech support guy, he also trains all of the DynoDynamics operators accross europe when they buy a DD system, so if anyone can give a definitive answer as to which method is correct, he can.
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So if strapping methods are down to the Operator why would DD train you to do it that way but say "hey fellas strap it how you like"??
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Also in this official DD video why are the cars not being allowed to rise up ??
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They dont carl, but once DynoDynamics leaves the premises after training the operator to use the correct method, the dyno operator can strap how they like, wether its how they were shown during training is another matter. But if the individual operator feels they want to use a different strapping method, thats their decision.
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If the 'correct' way to run them was to allow them to run up the front roller, then why would they design in the rear roller when they could have just used the 1
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(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Ftomashandmilly%2FDaft_stuff%2F9r4nz7.gif&hash=bb70da836f390fc6a8e2ea8c3f9d79db101eb416)
Guys i hope this thread is going to stay friendly. :happy2: Sy and Carl i can see why you are dubious about the figures from Dave's map, but we all know how rolling roads will throw up all sorts of results, DD roller's or not. But this thread is starting to look like a bit of a witch hunt. Cant see it going down a constructive route at this point. :wink:
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:happy2: not meant in that way. Im genuinely intrigued about the dyno setup though.
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It's not a Witch Hunt TC.
I'm just curious as to why their are different methods of strapping being employed utilising the same Dyno.
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Here is a great video showing 2 cars being strapped and tested by the owner of DynoDynamics Europe (Mike Gurney) who also trains every dyno operator how to use one of their dynos.
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=6576817030959103698&q=vroom+vroom#
the first car tested (the morgan) doesnt show the climbing effect too clearly, but watch the BMW. Clearly shows that DD themselfes allow a car to leave the rear roller during power testing.
As for the question of 'why have 2 rollers then? ' its very hard to park a car right on top of one roller and strap it and test it effectively, also having 2 sets of rollers makes it far easier to load the car on and set it all up. Then theres the safety aspect, 2 rollers effectively traps the car if it decides to go sideways, I am sure you have all seen the video of the EVO on a single roller dyno when the strap snaps, nothing to stop it going wherever it wants. If a strap lets go on a dual roller dyno, as it drops back inbetween the dyno rollers it pulls the steering straight :happy2:
As for a witchhunt, dont feel that at all, if people dont ask questions about a subject they have no knowledge of (other than what they read on the web) then they wont find out the facts, or the opinions of the people that use a dyno every day as part of their job. The truth is that unless you get to use a dyno for a prolonged period of time you simply wont understand how they work, how the ramp rate or load is applied to the roller and how the estimated horsepower is calculated so ask any questions you like lads, I have owned a DD dyno for nearly 6 years now and have had 2 seperate training courses but still learn something new every day.
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As i said im not witch hunting.
I'd just like to know which is the correct method as then i know who's dyno results will be more accurate.
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The correct method is the one used by Mike of DynoDynamics in the video posted on the previous page. The more power a car has, the more it will climb, the amount of climb doesnt affect the result, just as long as the car pulls away from the rear roller. Lower power cars wont climb quite as much as higher hp cars.
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For those that are interested, here is the reply I recieved from DynoDynamics regarding strapping and climbing the roller:
Letting a car climb the front roller will make sure it makes traction on the gripped roller, strapping the car so it can't climb means it will not be allowed to make grip. A car will naturally want to climb and the bigger power cars have to be secured to prevent them climbing too much
see here &feature=channel
Mike Gurney
Dyno Dynamics
www.Dyno.com.au
If a couple of you want to come along and carry out some testing on the dyno then feel free, we will run the cars free of charge and show you the different strapping methods and explain why they are used.
Dave@PDT