MK5 Golf GTI

All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: john_o on November 04, 2008, 11:24:59 pm

Title: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight! [fixed pg5]
Post by: john_o on November 04, 2008, 11:24:59 pm
well as some of you may know I had the car remapped at Awesome 10 days ago....

then running home on a cool Sunday evening , WOT 3rd gear 22psi and stutter , stutter , jerk , flashing CEL  :confused:
backed off and tried again......
 :surprised: :surprised:
At this point Im none too happy and decided to take it easy for a few miles , then tried again , this time the CEL stayed permanently lit  :sad:

At this point im distinctly unhappy and deciding whether to go to Awesome or the stealers.
I figured given the car drove normally at reduced throttle , and low to mid boost levels , the problem probably wouldnt occur at normal /stock map levels, so the dealer wouldnt be much good

Phoned Awesome monday and they couldnt be more helpful , said to bring it in as soon as I could to read the fault codes.
Car was in today , read fault codes
Misfire cylinder 3 , aha coil packs I hear you say .......
swapped packs to see if fault 'follows' the swapped pack , alas not.
At this point Awesome wanted to keep my car for the day to do some more diagnostic checks.
At this point I was a tad concerned.

I went and picked the car back up , the reason ?
A poor batch of fuel !!!!!

Cylinder 3 is the longest inlet tract , so fuel related issues show up on that cylinder first.
They have added some octane booster and the fault no longer appeared and the car runs sooo much smoother.
Did consider draining the tank , but prob not required.

Anyway I have phoned Tesco and intend to claim at the very least my tank cost back.
It was Tesco 99 on the pump but I suspect it may have been either an old batch or really just 95 ordinary unleaded!!!
I think I may try some Optimax again ! after being a Tesco 99 avid fan


Anyway time will tell , but I had to post as Awesome have proved themselves worthy of my trust in getting my remap there.
Top  notch service which i cant fault, and despite my endless questions were always happy to take time out to help.
Something you really need, once remapped , especially as a fault (like this) may not even show in stock mode.

We will see how the next few miles go , but hopefully its just a bad luck experience.


Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CEL !
Post by: Top Cat on November 04, 2008, 11:31:36 pm
Good news in the end i bet you were twisting a bit after waiting so long to do the mod.  :chicken:

Ps did you use the tesco next to the rugby ground for your fill up.  :confused:  :scared:
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CEL !
Post by: T88OMM on November 05, 2008, 12:38:10 am
Glad to hear its all sorted John, I bet you feared the worst at first! Not good to hear that about Tesco's finest  :mad:
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CEL !
Post by: E30m3 on November 05, 2008, 12:44:10 am
Glad you got a happy ending, nothing worse than when something goes wrong and you have no clue what it is !

Although the UK fuel tests show Tesco 99 to be very good, i have heard rumours its very bad .

i never touch the stuff, V power or worst comes to worst BP.
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CEL !
Post by: john_o on November 05, 2008, 08:20:09 am
Ps did you use the tesco next to the rugby ground for your fill up.  :confused:  :scared:

 :signLOL: TC , usually I do fill up there but this time I filled up just a few yards down the road at the smaller Express one (KFC / Pizza Hut  , car dealers etc). So you'll be fine , I have always previously bought from the rugby ground one and its been fine.

This morning on the way to the station the car was flyyying , 25 psi  8) peak. Oh for a dry road .....

As far as Tesco 99 is concerned I have heard the same issues about ageing and poor quality issues (isnt that the way when you start digging!). So I may start alternating with some tanks of Vpower or Opti , but alas you are always hunting for that extra psi  :evilgrin:
And based on the way the car runs today , the map adjust very quickly to the extra octane in the tank.

time will tell as they say , Im certainly keeping my fingers crossed.

APR / Dogbone / WALKit reviews to come  :happy2:
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CEL !
Post by: SteveP on November 05, 2008, 11:34:10 am
Glad to hear it's no looking like it was anything major John_o  :happy2:

Thanks for sharing the useful information you found as well.
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CEL !
Post by: joesgti on November 05, 2008, 11:47:20 am
good result there john_o  :happy2: Awesome really really do live by their name dont they, i may send sarah an email, informing her about this new site!!  :evilgrin:
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CEL !
Post by: john_o on November 18, 2008, 12:46:30 pm
quick update , car is running just fine.

However despite a polite letter inc receipt AND letter from Awesome stating the problem.
Tesco are proving very reluctant to even refund my wasted tank of fuel!!!

As far as they are concerned there wasnt a problem and gave me a list of possible (but proven not so in this case) issues.

I have rewritten back stating how and why there 'possibles' are not correct in this case, but I'm very dissapointed the letter was downright dismissive.  :fighting:

lets see what happens.........


Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CEL !
Post by: RedRobin on November 18, 2008, 01:36:31 pm
^^^^

Firstly I'm very glad to hear the problem was quickly found and solved - It's very worrying when you don't know what a fault is.

Regarding Tesco, they don't have a good reputation for their ethics in business! I'm sure they'll be very stubborn and hope to force you to give up in your efforts - They have much deeper pockets than you do (I'm assuming!). I would get in touch with your local newspaper and start making some noise but firstly send a more formal letter from your solicitor.
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CEL !
Post by: bacillus on November 18, 2008, 02:52:29 pm
I don't think he's going to get anywhere with Tesco as he didn't get the petrol formally analysed at the time and that "bad" petrol is no longer in his tank.
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CEL !
Post by: RedRobin on November 18, 2008, 03:21:18 pm
^^^^

Yep, it all starts getting 'technical'. Methinks it's best to put it down to experience and move on.
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CEL !
Post by: john_o on November 18, 2008, 10:18:49 pm
I suspect that might be the case , but Im not going to give up that easily  :mad:
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CEL !
Post by: bacillus on November 18, 2008, 10:40:31 pm
I would think your only avenue now for making a complaint that would stand up in law is to find a few people who had the same issues after filling up at the same time as you and kept their till receipts.

I know that's a tall order and perhaps impractical if not impossible to acheive.

Good luck never the less.   :happy2:
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CEL !
Post by: Hurdy on November 19, 2008, 12:09:02 am
Oooooh. Sorry to hear that John.

At least you were sorted fairly quickly. 8)

It's just a little worrying that this has happened more than once with Tesco :scared:
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CEL !
Post by: candy turbo on November 19, 2008, 08:29:39 pm
most super market petrol is rubbish , when i had cars with the 1.8t engine in the difference optimax/v power made over any other brand was amazing !!last octavia and the ed 30 only ever had v power since they were born  :happy2:
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CEL !
Post by: RedRobin on November 19, 2008, 08:54:34 pm
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.iresonmotorsports.com%2Fimages%2Fuploaded%2FV%2520power%2520logo.jpg&hash=5124d13719a4b231c30f73c9480b677d4579cc07)
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CEL !
Post by: john_o on November 19, 2008, 09:19:21 pm
to be fair I always used to run VPower or Optimax , but after 1 tank of Tesco 99 I could definitely feel and see higher peak boost with that. So i stayed with it.
Now however I may mix the three
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CEL !
Post by: john_o on November 27, 2008, 04:05:49 pm
story as yet not written ......................more CEL's on different fuel..................more info to follow
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CEL !
Post by: bacillus on November 27, 2008, 04:08:14 pm
Sorry to hear about this again mate!

Did you scan with VCDS?
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CEL !
Post by: john_o on November 27, 2008, 07:34:09 pm
Awesome are on the case. And have been nothing but helpful , Jims a top guy  :happy2:
Initially my continuing faults were cylinder 3 misfire BUT on actually logging the car actually shows misfires on all cylinders.
Of which the main problem is that at high rpm the requested vs actual drops off significantly (although not to fuel cut levels) but enough to trigger my misfires. :surprised:
The problem is that the car should have enough capacity to deliver this, so I have an underlying problem that means my car cant.
Obvious starting points have been new std rail pump / PCV etc , none of which have helped.
std rail is 110 bar , with APR software requesting 130ish (to maintain AFR levels for the EGT temp)
Usually low rpm is the problem area!
Next steps are looking at the fuel system from rail to tank , filters etc. And to see if I have some cr*p at the bottom of my tank.
Its could also be an injector problem (I have seen S3's on audi sport with high rpm misfires!)
Its an unusual case , esp as my car ran like a train 2 days after the remap at Prosport under load several times to the redline (no fault codes!), go figure  :chicken:

out of all the remapped cars it did have to be mine thats a 'problem' child  :sad:
Anyway I have every condfidence it will be resolved soon.



Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: Phil Mcavity on November 27, 2008, 10:44:32 pm
flash it back to standard without the map would be the best starting point tbh.
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CEL !
Post by: gazbutS3 on November 27, 2008, 11:02:45 pm
Awesome are on the case. And have been nothing but helpful , Jims a top guy  :happy2:
Initially my continuing faults were cylinder 3 misfire BUT on actually logging the car actually shows misfires on all cylinders.
Of which the main problem is that at high rpm the requested vs actual drops off significantly (although not to fuel cut levels) but enough to trigger my misfires. :surprised:
The problem is that the car should have enough capacity to deliver this, so I have an underlying problem that means my car cant.
Obvious starting points have been new std rail pump / PCV etc , none of which have helped.
std rail is 110 bar , with APR software requesting 130ish (to maintain AFR levels for the EGT temp)
Usually low rpm is the problem area!
Next steps are looking at the fuel system from rail to tank , filters etc. And to see if I have some cr*p at the bottom of my tank.
Its could also be an injector problem (I have seen S3's on audi sport with high rpm misfires!)
Its an unusual case , esp as my car ran like a train 2 days after the remap at Prosport under load several times to the redline (no fault codes!), go figure  :chicken:

out of all the remapped cars it did have to be mine thats a 'problem' child  :sad:
Anyway I have every condfidence it will be resolved soon.





several of the 08 S3 cars have shown this exact fault John, shows up as cylinder 3, but evident on all, when revo'd, mine being one of them. 07 cars don't do it and can run really aggresive settings, but 08 cars can't. Nobody knows exactly why, but my misfires cleared up when I put the downpipe on so the thinking is lampda sensor readings, this has been backed up by a few different people. But your car is 07 isn't it, but lampda sensor maybe?
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: john_o on November 28, 2008, 10:44:55 am
My cars a 57 plate so it could be crossover. good points though Gaz thanks
Phil , the car has been run in stock mode back to back with mapped and logged and no faults. (i.e the requested vs actual match)
But thats because standard map only ever requests 110bar max.
Its that additional headroom (which should be available) that it just wont give.........
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: Hurdy on November 28, 2008, 12:16:32 pm
I know how you must be feeling at the moment John. Whenever my car wasn't running right it really P1ssed me off. Keep the faith and it'll come out okay in the end :happy2:
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: john_o on November 28, 2008, 01:55:26 pm
Cheers for the positive words  Hurdy , yeah its not the route Id planned lol but it will happen.
The car actually runs fantastic 99% of the time  , as long as I dont extend the revs too high
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: bacillus on November 28, 2008, 03:01:37 pm
But thats because standard map only ever requests 110bar max.
Its that additional headroom (which should be available) that it just wont give.........

Can I assume you have an uprated HPFP with APR pump specific software?
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: john_o on November 28, 2008, 03:23:40 pm
nope, std pump which should deliver 130bar. (which to be fair it does at lower rpm) , thats why a swap was attempted.
Adding a HPFP has been considered but a) I shouldnt need it and b) it may not even help
(still cant believe it pulled 320bhp @ prosport!) but time will tell.
Ironically some maps request less fuel pressure (and allow AFR to lean and EGR to raise above recomended limits), so on those I may not have had a problem!

John

Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: gazbutS3 on November 28, 2008, 04:25:07 pm
Strange this, is it the same map they used on my ED30 do you know John, that ran great on the stock pump, doesn't help you I know :smiley:
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: sibart on November 28, 2008, 05:11:56 pm
I know this may be of no consolation but I had exactly the same problem on my Octy (REVO).
Tried all sorts including extra ground wires to the coil packs. Its an tuning industry wide problem.The fault eventually cleared itself on my car???????. Revo had it on there Demo Seat which went when they changed the exhaust so i'm told.
It really is a puzzle of which no-one has found a defined answer.
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: RedRobin on November 28, 2008, 05:19:03 pm

It really is a puzzle of which no-one has found a defined answer.

....Those are the worst kind of faults!

Btw, your ex K03 turbo is holding out and delivering very well indeed so far!

Thanks :happy2:
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: bacillus on November 28, 2008, 05:29:52 pm
nope, std pump which should deliver 130bar. (which to be fair it does at lower rpm) , thats why a swap was attempted.
Adding a HPFP has been considered but a) I shouldnt need it and b) it may not even help
(still cant believe it pulled 320bhp @ prosport!) but time will tell.
Ironically some maps request less fuel pressure (and allow AFR to lean and EGR to raise above recomended limits), so on those I may not have had a problem!

John


The standard pump will provide 130bar but the problem lies with it  not being able to keep up the rail pressure.
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: RedRobin on November 28, 2008, 05:56:30 pm
^^^^

Well, I know of several very highly modified GTI's (not Ed30's) of around 300 bhp and they only have the stock fuel pump without any issues. Also VW Racing's track cars which are raw race cars and not used on the road.

[The same cars also don't bother with the S3 intercooler, as do the SEAT race cars have stock intercoolers.]
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: bacillus on November 28, 2008, 06:19:15 pm
RR those cars will have a map that caters for the rail pressure being around 110bar that the standard pump can manage.

The pump specific software from APR and Revo calls for 130 bar rail pressure and the standard pump isn't up to the task.
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: gazbutS3 on November 28, 2008, 06:27:22 pm
John hasn't got the pump specific software :smiley:
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: RedRobin on November 28, 2008, 06:33:41 pm
RR those cars will have a map that caters for the rail pressure being around 110bar that the standard pump can manage.

....Good point!
 
The pump specific software from APR and Revo calls for 130 bar rail pressure and the standard pump isn't up to the task.

....My understanding was that you could run Revo2+ with a stock FP :confused:
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: gazbutS3 on November 28, 2008, 06:37:53 pm
you can run revo stage2 with stock pump, revo stage2+ is the fuel pump specific map :happy2:
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: RedRobin on November 28, 2008, 06:45:33 pm
you can run revo stage2 with stock pump, revo stage2+ is the fuel pump specific map :happy2:

....Good, because that's what I run!

But do you HAVE TO run an aftermarket FP with Revo Stage2+? I thought not :surprised:
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: gazbutS3 on November 28, 2008, 06:52:38 pm
It was my understanding that the stage2+ is the fuel pump specific map, designed for the HPFP so I would have thought the pump is req to get the best from the map. The car would probably run ok as the ECU would adjust but not t its true potential
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: bacillus on November 28, 2008, 07:01:41 pm
But do you HAVE TO run an aftermarket FP with Revo Stage2+? I thought not :surprised:
Yup, revo want you to have an uprated HPFP before they flash you with the stage 2+ software as the software requires the rail pressure to be 130bar lower down the rev range.
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: sibart on November 29, 2008, 03:08:25 pm

It really is a puzzle of which no-one has found a defined answer.

....Those are the worst kind of faults!

Btw, your ex K03 turbo is holding out and delivering very well indeed so far!

Thanks :happy2:
It was frustrating for sure as the car was fine for a while then fault appeared.
Glad all is well with your car Robin. :happy2:
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: john_o on December 08, 2008, 07:40:24 pm
update

Ran the car for a while and tbh it has been better but problem still persists  :sad: at high rpm
New fuel filter fitted and nada difference
Next stop is the tank lift pump........
after that who knows , only ECU and Injectors left!


Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: Greeners on December 08, 2008, 07:43:59 pm
 :sad: Sorry to hear this is still not resolved john_o  :sad:

Must be really starting to pi$$ you off  :fighting:
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: Phil Mcavity on December 08, 2008, 08:56:12 pm
Have they tried running it stock without a remap on it??, i bet the maps causing it.
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: john_o on December 08, 2008, 09:14:30 pm
thanks Greenouse , yeah it is a pain but Awesome have been great so far
However we are fast approaching a decision point!

Have they tried running it stock without a remap on it??, i bet the maps causing it.

lol Phil we've been here 2 pages ago.
Runs fine on std map, it IS the remap demanding more of the OE fuel system.
The problem is that the OE system should be able to deliver whats asked.
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: Phil Mcavity on December 08, 2008, 09:38:06 pm
id maybe try a different map then john? is this a problem with just Revo maps  and not others.

Sorry didnt read the pages in between to catch up on the latest. :embarrassed:

This "Bad fuel" youve had, no signs of water in the fuel, which may of lead to other damage. Have they done any form of

compresssion checks to all cylinders??  , head off maybe and inspect ??
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: john_o on December 09, 2008, 09:05:12 pm
update

2 days at Awesome for some swap n check stuff.
New fuel filter fitted   = no diff
New in tank lift pump = no diff

and I think just to see if it did fix the issue

HPFP off the demo car tried = OK , no CEL hurrah (well almost!)

std pump put back on = CEL returns


The trains were delayed when I went to pick it up, but John@Awesome stayed behind past 6 just so I could get my car  :happy2:
Im gonna have a chat with Jim as Im still not entirely happy , Awesome however continue to impress and have now spent a not inconsiderable amount of time and money on my car (I have not payed a penny) to get to the bottom of this.

Long and short is that the Ed30 std setup should support 128 bar throughout the rev range for APR stage 1, based on the hundreds of mapped K04 cars. Mine doesnt!

There are now several avenues
 
1 : Have the car flashed back to stock.
2 : as above and try another remap (although I suspect I may still have the same issue)
3 : APR to review my car even more thoroughly on Awesomes dyno + logging  and supply a custom map if reqd !.
4 : Add the HPFP , which given the issues I have been offered at a vastly reduced price


Still cant help but feel the HPFP is just a band aid rather than fixing the primary problem!
The car has ran great since I picked it up! Now running some injector cleaner and a new tank of fuel.
I will see how it goes, as I need to consult with MrsO on the way forward.

I think Gaz may have something with the Lambda sensor/EGR and the map dumping extra fuel in to lower the EGR at higher temps, or the sensor itself getting covered giving different readings to the ecu.
I also still cant help get away from the fact some octane booster helped 1st time around.

Im also going to test my theory that a period of gentle running then a thrash makes it more likely to happen.

Try as i might I thrashed the car home (ESP off, deliberate wheelspin in 2nd /3rd to get rpms to limiter) and it just wouldnt happen.

I'm going to take a few days to consider my options and see how the car runs ..........




Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: gazbutS3 on December 09, 2008, 09:55:15 pm
good to see awesome workin hard to try and fix it john, I think you should go the discounted HPFP route, not fit it and give it me :jumping:
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: neg on December 09, 2008, 10:39:16 pm
not fit it and give it me :jumping:

I couldnt find the rolleyes smiley so this one will do ..  :sick:

(was that added just for you gaz!)
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: gazbutS3 on December 09, 2008, 10:40:24 pm
think so :laugh:
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: john_o on December 10, 2008, 10:48:43 am
update, Jim gave me a call this morning, still very keen to get to the bottom of this

1. The problem did not occur at ProSport , car ran fine for 2 days after remap, problem only occurred 4 days in.
2. Changing back to my standard pump yesterday , it DIDNT misfire initially, only on my way home once. In fact picking my car up yesterday it was silent ! very quiet , but once Id got home it was back to a pronounced ticking (Yes, I know the injectors make a tick normally but it was noticeably different)
3. Octane booster appeared to help
4. The Fuel Pressure Sensor has not been changed , I though it was part of the pump , but its been swapped each time. This was a early car recall which I assumed wouldnt be a problem, but now I know its never been swapped its a potential problem.
5. I thrashed the car into work this morning and only got 1 instance of CEL, about 15-20 at least runs in 1st/2nd/3rd ESP off into limiter.

So, just swapping pumps appears to help! (be it HPFP or back to my same std pump)
The problem was repeatable up until yesterday (each run past 6300 rpm would cause a CEL), now it happens infrequently.
I am going to run for another week and see how it goes...............







Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: RedRobin on December 10, 2008, 11:53:38 am
^^^^

I feel for you, mate - It's so frustrating when a fault isn't clear-cut.
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: john_o on December 10, 2008, 12:43:20 pm
cheers Robin , working in IT writing software, I'm a methodical facts kinda guy so these kinda faults bug the sh*t out of me tbh
Esp when I cant do the troubleshooting myself.
we will see..........
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: RedRobin on December 10, 2008, 01:15:32 pm
....

At least you have some caring and knowledgable people on your case :happy2:

You'll solve it eventually......It just takes frustrating time.
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: john_o on December 11, 2008, 09:21:13 am
opened up on the way home after an Xmas meal last night,
now back to consistent repeatable CEL's under every WOT run past 6300rpm ......ARGHHHHHHHHHHHH

Useful thread on MkV faults here
 >> common issues and remedies for the 2.0T <<  (http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24952)

Next stop replace Fuel Pressure Sensor on pump and maybe even the fuel tank cap!
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: Steve Baker on December 11, 2008, 10:22:25 am
update, Jim gave me a call this morning, still very keen to get to the bottom of this


So, just swapping pumps appears to help! (be it HPFP or back to my same std pump)
The problem was repeatable up until yesterday (each run past 6300 rpm would cause a CEL), now it happens infrequently.
I am going to run for another week and see how it goes...............









Hi
sorry to hear of your problems.
Reading through your posts it would appear that the one common denominator to recreate the fault is the fuel pump??
You have tried a high pressure pump and no fault but nowhere can I see you have replaced your std pump???? might be worth a try.
When we were circuit racing years ago testing to find a high rpm misfire used to pain me as I always feared for the longevity of the engine running at WOT all the time! I feel for you.  :wink:
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: john_o on December 11, 2008, 11:09:54 am
thanks Steve appreciate you input  :happy2:

Yes one of the first tests was to swap my std pump for another std pump, the misfire continued as before.
Which to my mind indicates its not the pump.

Im assured the engine protects itself enough, but yes WOT lean conditions are really bad for a turbo car, but yes that worried me too. Any evidence to the contrary?


Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: T88OMM on December 11, 2008, 05:14:39 pm
It must be buggin you big time this John. Hope it all gets sorted soon. I think it is just a great excuse to get the APR HPFP and HPFP specific software  :happy2:
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: gazbutS3 on December 11, 2008, 05:22:53 pm
The price has just been reduced for the APR HPFP :smiley:
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: RedRobin on December 11, 2008, 05:30:13 pm
The price has just been reduced for the APR HPFP :smiley:

....More than the 2.5% reduction in vat?
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: gazbutS3 on December 11, 2008, 05:32:01 pm
yes, more like 5% :smiley:, then the Vat reduction on top I should imagine
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: bacillus on December 11, 2008, 05:48:18 pm
Is this for both new and rebuild pumps?

If it is, can't see it lasting for long seeing how weak the pound is vs the dollar.
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: gazbutS3 on December 11, 2008, 06:03:27 pm
I was talking about exchange :smiley:
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: john_o on January 06, 2009, 07:03:43 pm
update

the car is now back at Awesome, my trusty steed for just now is a Mk3 GTI  :happy2:
And without prompting John@Awesome has just provided an update  :happy2:

the bad news = it aint fixed yet
the good news = the walls are closing in to a fix  :happy2:

The problem was recreated on the dyno with full logging, and for some reason the car is dumping a load of fuel into the cylinders at a specific point causing a stutter. (the reduced fuel pressure is a symptom not a cause)
The car apparently runs very well (stutter aside  :grin:) and after seeing its not running lean etc it pulled 320 bhp on the dyno !
(which is higher than normal for a stg1 ed30 and matches what it pulled at Prosport fyi)

feel much better I know the car is basically healthy, heres to a fix  :jumping:




Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: Hurdy on January 06, 2009, 07:08:13 pm
Would the fuel dump occur between 3 and 4k by any chance?
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: john_o on January 06, 2009, 07:13:21 pm
its 6300rpm  ish Hurdy
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: Hurdy on January 06, 2009, 07:30:59 pm
Not what I thought it may be then.

6,300 rpm and my DSG would be gearing up :surprised:

Seems an unusual point in the rpm to dump excessive fuel!

I'll definitely be keeping up with your updates now John as it has peaked my interest.
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: john_o on January 06, 2009, 08:02:31 pm
to be fair its 6100-6300 range.
Im not sure its excessive fuel per se, more a faulty sensor/regulator triggering a condition that the ECU doesnt like and decides to increase the fuel.
The problem from my perspective is whats a cause and whats an effect! but then I dont really have to, Ill let awesome do that.

Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: john_o on January 11, 2009, 05:41:13 pm
while we are waiting for a fix, I treat as I would my own so today the 'awesome' car got a bath....
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.johnoldfield.dsl.pipex.com%2Fimages%2Fweblog%2Fawesometempcar.jpg&hash=8e2cb0e56aa0a00e43cc7d2a3f901f8d36f3a39e)
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: garethmk1 on January 11, 2009, 07:53:22 pm
Guys,

Hmmmmm, seems I may have the same problem with a SC remap.

http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=1180.60

Regards,

Gareth
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: john_o on January 13, 2009, 01:01:28 pm
UPDATE : Its fixed   :rolleye:

After a lot of diagnostic work and logging by Awesome, the route cause has been traced back to the map  :surprised:
(despite APR convinced it wasnt)

a single data value was incorrect on one of the data lookup tables.  I dont envy the sheer amount of RR time this has taken to pinpoint !
This error has been introduced in a recent map 'cleanup' according to APR (why Gaz's ED30 never did it!) revision to the map.
It also explains why the HPFP fixed the issue (unknown to me they also loaded the HPFP map), as that map doesnt have the error either.

I'm made up to have a solution, but in some ways disappointed it wasnt something else. For me its not just fixing the issue, its how its fixed and the implications from that. (e.g. how did happen, whats QC is in place to prevent it happening again etc)
I can only trust(!) that following this, APR perform a full post incident analysis (as im forced to do at my own place of work).
I am however surprised that this gets into a production file in the first place.  :sad:

What I cannot fault is the way Awesome have dealt with this from day 1, John has forever kept me informed (without prompting) and relayed info, Jim (and the team) has personally ensured that I have got a result here using the facts and hard work, where he was placed in a very difficult position between my questions, the fault and APR (Im not someone to be fobbed off without facts  :grin:). Nothing less than I expected but in this day and age sorely lacking from many.

So there you go, an honest response (* as given to me) as to what was wrong, take from it what you will.
For me, this only re-enforces tenfold my belief in Awesome and why I chose them. Top work guys  :happy2:
It also does so with APR software to some extent (not for the fault but their honesty and fixing it), but I'd be lying if I wasnt surprised at the outcome.

Yes, I would buy APR again : definitely  :happy2:

The only outstanding question is how many cars got this map? and why only me has had the issue? everyone else driving like miss daisy lol

Gareth unfortunately it isnt going to help you   :sad:
( * well unless theres some data 'sharing' gone on, which for one minute I'm not suggesting!)

Roll on Santa Pod , WhiteGTI GAME ON  :happy2:

* post remap dyno plot to follow
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: winrya on January 13, 2009, 03:39:27 pm
Thats great news.

I'm very very tempted to go for a trip and have an apr remap on my gti.  I'm well aware there is no point doing it unless i change the diverter valve to the forge upgrade but they are now claiming 252bhp and 304lb of torque on a standard gti.  Slighly down on the 262 revo claim but im a bit worried that pushed the engine a bit far.  MMMM £700, is it worth it.........
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CEL !
Post by: illyun on January 13, 2009, 03:43:45 pm
Glad you got a happy ending, nothing worse than when something goes wrong and you have no clue what it is !

Although the UK fuel tests show Tesco 99 to be very good, i have heard rumours its very bad .

i never touch the stuff, V power or worst comes to worst BP.

I'm exactly the same.. only Optimax or worst option BP Ultimate - used it once or twice for a £10 temp refill over 27k miles
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight! [fixed pg5]
Post by: garethmk1 on January 13, 2009, 04:09:01 pm
Am glad you got to the bottom of it !!

Regards,

Gareth
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight! [fixed pg5]
Post by: Hurdy on January 13, 2009, 04:21:48 pm
Good result John :happy2:

I too would be concerned about the APR QA side of things as well as development controls. :scared:
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: WhiteGTI on January 13, 2009, 04:43:35 pm

Roll on Santa Pod , WhiteGTI GAME ON  :happy2:

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh bugger!!

Although, I am really glad that you have finally fixed the problem!!!  :chicken: :chicken: :chicken: :chicken: :chicken: :chicken:
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight! [fixed pg5]
Post by: luca on January 13, 2009, 04:59:37 pm
Glad its all sorted for you mate :happy2:
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight! [fixed pg5]
Post by: gazbutS3 on January 13, 2009, 05:20:31 pm
Nice 1 John, glad its fixed :happy2:
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight! [fixed pg5]
Post by: Greeners on January 13, 2009, 06:23:44 pm
Good news John_o  :jumpmove: Really pleased for you mate  :happy2: Now you can go and fall in love all over again with your car!!
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight! [fixed pg5]
Post by: SO8 on January 13, 2009, 06:42:53 pm
Good news they found the problem !

I was going to get APR .... about the same time I guess the problem would have been copied over - so glad I didn't.  They have a good reputation but it just goes to show how something so small can cause a problem which because it is so small takes an age to detect.

Good they kept at trying to find it ....
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: john_o on January 13, 2009, 07:24:53 pm
MMMM £700, is it worth it.........
definitely worth it  :happy2: , reckon you could get some £ off that too. DV would be preventative, you could wait for it to fail before changing it as well.

@whiteGTI is that flywheel or wheels hp in your sig?
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight! [fixed pg5]
Post by: Top Cat on January 13, 2009, 09:54:27 pm
Just caught up with this John_o

Glad to see all is now well.  :smiley:
Do you want me to swap you for BennyLenny so you can now race against Tony H.  :chicken:
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight!
Post by: WhiteGTI on January 13, 2009, 10:04:11 pm
MMMM £700, is it worth it.........
definitely worth it  :happy2: , reckon you could get some £ off that too. DV would be preventative, you could wait for it to fail before changing it as well.

@whiteGTI is that flywheel or wheels hp in your sig?

Umm dunno...whatever the dynodynamics rollers at JKM measure it at!  :confused: :confused:

I'm sure someone will come along and post the answer soon  :smiley: :smiley:
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight! [fixed pg5]
Post by: john_o on January 13, 2009, 10:52:13 pm
Do you want me to swap you for BennyLenny so you can now race against Tony H.  :chicken:

wouldnt want to disappoint whiteGTI  :grin: , but on the day Im up for giving it a go against anyone/anything  :happy2:
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight! [fixed pg5]
Post by: john_o on January 14, 2009, 07:48:46 pm
car picked up and running like a train, you forget just how good the mk5 is  :happy2:
dyno as promised

312 bhp / 376 lb/ft (!) running on VPower , kinda confirms why I have a traction issue, it hits hard  :evilgrin: full spool @2500rpm

(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.johnoldfield.dsl.pipex.com%2Fimages%2Fweblog%2Fed30_apr_stg1_13thJan09.jpg&hash=dfb5907eee32d1f7c4e6c36c73a3d70f61cd7f75)
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight! [fixed pg5]
Post by: bacillus on January 14, 2009, 07:59:50 pm
Great numbers...   :happy2:
Title: Re: whoosh.....stutter........CheckEngineLight! [fixed pg5]
Post by: T88OMM on January 15, 2009, 10:49:01 am
Fook me they are great numbers JohnO!! Glad to hear its all sorted  :happy2: