MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Modifications & Technical Area => Performance Modifications => Topic started by: berg on March 09, 2011, 11:01:31 pm
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Chaps, am at Revo Stg 1 now on my ED30 and am getting the suspension off PDT next month. Have done WALK, Eibach arb's, forge quickshifter, Dave B NQSBBK so that will be everthing done apart from uprated clutch/lsd if it starts to slip.
My dilemma is do I spend another £5k (over the next couple of years) to go to Stg 2+ and get clutch/lsd and hit around the 370 bhp mark or do people with ED30's who have gone this far feel that they have not got value for money ie 300bhp stg 1 is relatively cheap to get to but to go all the way is quite a lot more and would that money be better spent saving towards a RWD BMW or a 4WD Audi for example?
I really am torn between making the most out of such a tunable car or saving the $ towards an RS3 or M3 for example in 3 to 5 years. I am fast road user only so am not interested in achieving 1/4 mile times but on other hand the modding bug has bitten alright!
Any thoughts/opinions...
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get stage 2, Full turbo back exhaust, maybe a bigger intercooler, Cotton air filter without going cold intake, and thats good for 290-300bhp.
Plenty for front wheel drive, gives more torque then stage one further up the rev range, and also doesnt strain the car and its components to its limits without risk of a failure of some sort which could be a very costly one.
Up to you mate, it gets you another 30bhp from 2 to 3 on average, just ask yourself is it really worth it forking out shed loads for little time to use it on the public roads.
Im biased of course being happy on stage 2. But used to stand by std was good enough years ago :signLOL: :ashamed:
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Why not go Stage 2 with a downpipe, should be 315hp and better midrange torque ?
The whole will cost less than £1k. Then putting the power down is the next useful spend
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I thought the same thing when I had stage 2+, then took the HPFP off and sold it, then convinced myself I would stick at stage 2.
two months later, I've fitted an APR fuel pump and looking at getting a stage 3 remap in the next couple of weeks......
Does that answer your question :popcornsoda:
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I don't understand your point of view Berg...
If you dream to by a RWD BMW or a AWD Audi, then, yes save your money to by them instead of spending it in modding your car.
But not every body is modding his car wishing he would make it look like or performe like an other on he is wishing to own.
I have spent so much money modding my car, I could have afford a brandnew TT S or RS or a RS3, a Porsche Cayman S or a second hand M3... But it's not what I'm looking for.
I like discreet looking cars like hot hatch that you mod' to make it as fast as you can. Some time faster than the fast looking cars. And I have fun to do it.
But if you don't then, you took the wrong way. So save your money and by the car you realy dream of.
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Yes it's a biggish outlay (especially when doing the clutch and wanting to get the LSD), but still, for the money, there's not much that will stick with a Stage 2+ ED30.. :wink:
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I've recently changed back to Stage 2 from Stage 2+. A few reasons really, one was financial and obviously that was a driving factor in my decision. The other was mechanical sympathy for a car I plan to keep for a long time. I just felt the car was at or very near it's peak performance, and like most things if you want them to last you don't run things at full chat for long periods.
Thirdly I got to drive a standard GTI for a few weeks and to be honest I'd forgotten what a fantastic all rounder the GTI is out of the box, and although my car was very focused it had lost some of it's every day drivability and I felt Stage 2 was the best compromise all round.
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Thanks guys, I think then after listening to Greeners and Carrera; stage 2 would be a good option as I note people like RR have stopped at this level too and like Greeners I would like to keep the car and not risk mechanical failure of key components.
Re Laurent - what i meant to say is I think you get great value from Stg 1 but was not convinced that the considerable outlay to cary on to Stg 2+ (if you factor in clutch and lsd too) is good value if the ED30 struggles for traction (with 370 bhp) and cant get that power down, the money would be better spent on an S3 of Golf R BUT modding your car is more fun than saving :pomppomp:
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Just remember that if you do got stage 2 + you can get most of the parts used here saving a load, I bought a used twintercooler and ITG from here and seeing as they are relatively straight forward to fit can be removed easily and most if not all of the value of the parts returned.
PS I'm at stage 2 despite my mods allowing 2+ as the people who tune my car see more faults with stage 2+ cars than any other level of tuning or standard.
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Just remember that if you do got stage 2 + you can get most of the parts used here saving a load, I bought a used twintercooler and ITG from here and seeing as they are relatively straight forward to fit can be removed easily and most if not all of the value of the parts returned.
PS I'm at stage 2 despite my mods allowing 2+ as the people who tune my car see more faults with stage 2+ cars than any other level of tuning or standard.
interesting, who tunes your motor rob if you dont mind me asking? Hearing good things about Stattlers and Yorkshire not too far from me but will take it to Pipewerx if/when go Stg 2.
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PM'd
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I thought the same thing when I had stage 2+, then took the HPFP off and sold it, then convinced myself I would stick at stage 2.
two months later, I've fitted an APR fuel pump and looking at getting a stage 3 remap in the next couple of weeks......
Does that answer your question :popcornsoda:
is stage 3 only for KO3 cars? If you have KO4 can you go 2+ and then hybrid a la Hurdy?
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Hurdy never went hybrid, just NOS.
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Thanks guys, I think then after listening to Greeners and Carrera; stage 2 would be a good option as I note people like RR have stopped at this level too and like Greeners I would like to keep the car and not risk mechanical failure of key components.
....It's a hard fact that the more you push the performance envelope the more you risk reliability. That's fine as long as someone understands that and accepts it. Personally, I think that handling and 'lsd' mods are more important than a Stage2+ but ETTO of course.
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i think stage 2+ might actually be to much for a car now in hindsight.
however i really value the midrange of the HPFP.
So i think a stage 1 remap, HPFP, and intake would be the best choice of modifications for me. id bet that would be similar to stage 2 peak figures, but with better mid range whihc is more usable in everyday life. plus it save you spending 1100 on a TBE
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Tbh I am addicted to the mid range pull of stage 3 (stage 2+), it is so addictive and I could not imagine going back to stage 1, However I do worry about the fuel pump and had I had the money would have gone for the APR pump.
My clutch went on stage 1 so the replacement Sachs clutch is up to the job of stage 3. I am currently on 100k with no problems so far lol.
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Car new April 08 -
- Week later was Revo Stage 1 + Milly TBE
- Few months later went Stage 2
- 50k done then HPFP, Intake and Stage 2+ added
- Now sat on 78k and not a mechanical fault to be reported
This is with easily 100+ 1/4 mile runs whilst modded and all on long life service intervals (20k)..
I appreciate that most on here have been worried about the odd engine and fuel pump seal failure and aren't willing to take what they think is a gamble with thier pride and joy (don't blame them tbh). BUT that doesn't necessarily mean that Stage 2+ is on the brink of going boom!!! IMO, it's far from it..
That being said, it's not for everyone and can be a bit :driver:. Plus Stage 2 is by no means slouchy :surprised: But whatever tune you do decide on, I would definitely add the HPFP, as the midrange is epic.. :happy2:
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I bought my car in April 10 and at that point had already decided exactly the way I was going with the mods. Within 2 months the car went off to VWR for a stock to stage 2+ conversion. Best £X,000 i spent. Nothing like gaining over 100hp in one session!
At the start of this year, I was contemplating going back to stage 2, then took the car for a spirited drive again and completely changed my mind. :happy2:
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i think stage 2+ might actually be to much for a car now in hindsight.
however i really value the midrange of the HPFP.
So i think a stage 1 remap, HPFP, and intake would be the best choice of modifications for me. id bet that would be similar to stage 2 peak figures, but with better mid range whihc is more usable in everyday life. plus it save you spending 1100 on a TBE
....A Milltek TBE was my very first mod and I only did it originally for the noiz (as VC very aptly spells it).
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I am currently on 100k with no problems so far lol.
....That's music to my ears! :pomppomp: :pomppomp: :pomppomp: :star:
I'm only a K03 GTI on Revo2 and 92k miles but it's good to hear.
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I am currently on 100k with no problems so far lol.
....That's music to my ears! :pomppomp: :pomppomp: :pomppomp: :star:
I'm only a K03 GTI on Revo2 and 92k miles but it's good to hear.
I maybe should have pointed out I've only had stage 3 for about 600 miles lol but I think it's the original turbo.
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Could you elaborate on what hardware and software comprise DNA stage 3?
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Could you elaborate on what hardware and software comprise DNA stage 3?
The usual hardware as for stage 2+.
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So can anyone elaborate why stage 2+ is potentially far riskier than stg 2? Does the software push the engine components closer to dangerous levels that the ECU may not appreciate?
I thought Revo was tested to such an extent that you were still operating well within the safety parameters so if you service everything at shorter intervals why is 2+ seen as a gamble? :confused:
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first of all, youre running 130bar of fuel pressure instead of 110bar.
secondly revo runs 1500mb of boost, stage 2 is about 1100-1300mb.
my PDT stage 2 is about 310bhp and 290lbsft of torque, my stage 2+ revo was 350bhp and 370lbs of torque. all this is obviously going to stress the components more, but havent heard of that many engines going bang, and like myself, youre not going to have your foot planted to the floor all the time you drive your car, so I'm not that worried about it to be honest. Bens car is an example of the reliability.
Its your choice at the end of the day. But its a slippery slope, so no doubt you'll eventually end up at stage 2+ anyway...... :popcornsoda:
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Thanks guys, I think then after listening to Greeners and Carrera; stage 2 would be a good option as I note people like RR have stopped at this level too and like Greeners I would like to keep the car and not risk mechanical failure of key components.
....It's a hard fact that the more you push the performance envelope the more you risk reliability. That's fine as long as someone understands that and accepts it. Personally, I think that handling and 'lsd' mods are more important than a Stage2+ but ETTO of course.
I would agree robin. I cant really see any situation where you will need 350bhp on a road car, and lets face it, unless you've also got a LSD youll struggle to use that power anyway. If you made a 280bhp GTI handle 'epically' you'll almost certainly have more fun in it, than chasing bhp figures.
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Not so much engines going bang heavyd, more so turbo's blowing , breaking of blades in the turbo, and being blasted into the engine causing failure.
The engine overtime WILL at some stage give some form of stress failure, as it wasnt built to withstand these extra strains.
You are simply kidding yourself if you think that it will cope with all the additional power and torque, at some stage it will result in some sort of failure, whether it's tomorrow, or its much later in the cars life, hopefully when your not the owner of the car still.
My thoughts might not been agreed by all, but i feel, if you plan to keep your car, like Greeners has already said, the last thing I'd ever do is max the car out for little more benefit.
I sometimes worry about running stage 2, but I try to warm up and warm down the car when I use it.
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Balance is key if you ask me hence why I won't go 2+ the power on 2 is great but the car needs to be able to put the power down and go around corners well :driver: If am honest stage 1 is fine with some good coilovers and brakes and a diff it just transforms the car
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certainly glad i started this hread, some great info and opinions voiced.
i think i have decided what to do although the curve ball for me is what Janner Sy said about foing HPFP and induction kit and not bothering about tbe... this seems like a good compromise to improve stage 1 without going balls out butfor now am content to save for diff/clutch after PDT fir arb's/b12 next month
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Not so much engines going bang heavyd, more so turbo's blowing , breaking of blades in the turbo, and being blasted into the engine causing failure.
Have you heard of many Tfsi turbo blades breaking off with standard turbos?
I know there is a good chance of turbo seals blowing.
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Not so much engines going bang heavyd, more so turbo's blowing , breaking of blades in the turbo, and being blasted into the engine causing failure.
Have you heard of many Tfsi turbo blades breaking off with standard turbos?
I know there is a good chance of turbo seals blowing.
yeah i have seen a few that the blades have broken apart and gone into the engine and fooked it :scared: the car have all been 2+ i think
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none standard publicised on the forum, only stage 2+ cars have had major mechanical failure from time to time.
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How about getting a bluefin stage 3.
That way you are getting more power than revo stage 2, but the figures arent as high, so engine wont be getting stressed as much? just a thought?
Alternatively theres always a custom stage 3 PDT remap, but get him to lower the parameters, or alternatively a shark performance remap, which hits around the 330bhp mark?
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How about getting a bluefin stage 3.
That way you are getting more power than revo stage 2, but the figures arent as high, so engine wont be getting stressed as much? just a thought?
Alternatively theres always a custom stage 3 PDT remap, but get him to lower the parameters, or alternatively a shark performance remap, which hits around the 330bhp mark?
all worth considering, i think i should be able to hit 330bhp from revo stg 2 as that would be 10% increase over stg 1.
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Your quoting 370 bhp will always be open to interpretation, on some dyno's, 330bhp is shown on a healthy stage 2+ car,and in my view is more realistic.
Stage 1 280 approx
Stage 2 300 approx
Stage + 320> on..
Torque is what tends to break things, and stress's components.
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I went from Stage 2+ back to Stage 2.
I got more power on Stage 2 than i did Stage 2+ as well :confused:
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stop thinking about POWER its more about how the car drives and handles :driver: if you want power then your in the wrong car :rolleye: get something fast out of the box and then fiddle with it :pomppomp:
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stop thinking about POWER its more about how the car drives and handles :driver: if you want power then your in the wrong car :rolleye: get something fast out of the box and then fiddle with it :pomppomp:
.... x 2
Driveability, handling, and reliability :happy2: Things can still go wrong or break but the risk is less.
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Hmm I've done a search but could only find TDs turbos blowing. If anyone knows a thread where the turbo on a tfsi has actually blown the engine too post em up.
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you wont find em mate the ones that went pop wanted to try get them done for free under warranty and to be honest you cant blame em for trying
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i agree hence why am getting arb's, b12, and possibly clutch/lsd before anything else which will give increase in torque/bhp
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i think i have decided what to do although the curve ball for me is what Janner Sy said about foing HPFP and induction kit and not bothering about tbe... this seems like a good compromise to improve stage 1 without going balls out butfor now am content to save for diff/clutch after PDT fir arb's/b12 next month
stage 1 with HPFP would definitely be the way forward for me next time. Anothe rthing i would consider is getting the 'pre cat' removed from the OEM downpipe. This will reduce the exhaust gas temperatures. Will cost absolute pennies (just needs to be taken off and hit with a hammer :grin:), will also give a minor increase in performance id imagine.
this is an example of a stage 1 REVO car with the HPFP and intake, compared to Robins stage 2 REVO with TBE and intake. Both K03 and of course different cars, but same engine, dyno and operator
stage 1 revo with HPFP and evoms
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jkm.org.uk%2Fperformance%2FMisc%2FGallery%2Frollingroaddays%2FBRISKODA%252020%252002%252010%2FDyno%2520Graphs%2FXZJ.gif&hash=9f6405c344a34005c46f4c4ee9addd37eb01a032)
stage 2 with TBE and twintake (the highest one of Robons i could find)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FMods%2FTWINtake%2FDyno_20Feb10_Twintake.jpg&hash=90b169b1acbe3aec85b41869b2c3f76c8006acf6)
it looks like the first one drops off faster but if you compare power/torque at the same points in each graph their practically the same.
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i went stage 2+ in my ed30 conversion. After 6 months the clutch started to slip and gearbox started whining! :laugh: :rolleye: so i sold it!
Would i go stage 2+ again..... HELL YES! worth every penny! :evilgrin:
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You're all just big wusses and can't handle the power.. :signLOL: I think it's fun trying to stay out of ditches and avoiding trees, wouldn't have it any other way.. :laugh:
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i await your new post saying bmw has spun me into a ditch :driver: i could not drive rwd :signLOL:
edit that was on phone :signLOL:
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i await your new post saying bmw has spun me into a bitch :driver: i could not drive rwd :signLOL:
Don't need a BM to spin me into a bitch mate.. Had plenty of practise with that :signLOL:
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:signLOL: :signLOL: iphone spelt it wrong :signLOL:
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:signLOL: :signLOL: iphone spelt it wrong :signLOL:
Sausage fingers.. :signLOL:
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this is an example of a stage 1 REVO car with the HPFP and intake, compared to Robins stage 2 REVO with TBE and intake. Both K03 and of course different cars, but same engine, dyno and operator
stage 1 revo with HPFP and evoms
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jkm.org.uk%2Fperformance%2FMisc%2FGallery%2Frollingroaddays%2FBRISKODA%252020%252002%252010%2FDyno%2520Graphs%2FXZJ.gif&hash=9f6405c344a34005c46f4c4ee9addd37eb01a032)
stage 2 with TBE and twintake (the highest one of Robins i could find)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FMods%2FTWINtake%2FDyno_20Feb10_Twintake.jpg&hash=90b169b1acbe3aec85b41869b2c3f76c8006acf6)
it looks like the first one drops off faster but if you compare power/torque at the same points in each graph their practically the same.
....I would only add that I'm running on Revo2 with my settings turned down less than they can go: B7/T5/F8 because I'm on a stock fuel pump. :happy2:
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Your graph looks better Robin then the one running a hpfp :signLOL:
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Your graph looks better Robin then the one running a hpfp :signLOL:
....Yep, it looks to my fairly untrained eye that my torque comes on higher earlier and is a smoother curve.
I last ran 253 bhp (IIRC) at JKM but with a misfire. I'm planning to organise another JKM dyno day soon-ish.
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RRs torque does come in lower down, but from 3000rpm its neigh on identical. RRs graph is also scaled slighly better making it appear flatter. ie the scale starts 400rpm later and finishes abit earlier. Plus this is RRs best graph, the others are all sub 260hp. You can only compare the curves if the scales are identical. If not you have to compare the actual figures at individual points of the rev band.
Stage 2 will be better than stage 1+. but its also would cost around £800 more to go for a stage 2 remap with TBE, intake as apose to stage 1 remap, HPFP and intake
RR you say your settings are turned down due to the HPFP being standard. well that what stage 2 is, every stage 2 car is the same, they will give as much as is possible on the std fuel pump. It would be stage 2+ if you were running higher fuel pressure.
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RR you say your settings are turned down due to the HPFP being standard. well that what stage 2 is, every stage 2 car is the same, they will give as much as is possible on the std fuel pump. It would be stage 2+ if you were running higher fuel pressure.
....I think this would be best answered by Keith at JKM because what you're saying doesn't quite match JKM's reasons for reducing my settings.
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stage 2 goes as far as possible on the standard fuel pump. stage 2+ goes as the car was far as possible with the fuel pump.
You had stage 2 with no intake before. This meant you could run aggresive settings without fuel cut. You added the intake, this increased the rate at which the car builds boost thus will result in fuel cut with a stage 2 car on the stock pump, hence they turn the boost and fueling down to compensate. The stage 2 is designed to go as far as possible without fuel cut, which is exactly what you want with a remap.
Carl is now running stage 2 software on his vRS but with a HPFP and runs much more aggressive fueling because he doesnt have to worry about fuel cut, but its more like a stage 2+ remap i guess.
similar thing with the stage 1 map and a HPFP. @ stage 1 you can easily get fuel cut, but if you add the HPFP you can run more aggressive settings and make alot more power. But thats more of a stage 1+ remap then.
As you always say though, its all about what your after in a remap. An exhaust has its benefits as it will reduces the EGT's but its expensive. The HPFP is a weak point on the car, so is a good upgrade.
As said before, next time id be tempted to go with a stage 1+ setup instead of a 2+, purely in hindsight and what i want from a car. I like performance without the noise.
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You had stage 2 with no intake before. This meant you could run aggresive settings without fuel cut. You added the intake, this increased the rate at which the car builds boost thus will result in fuel cut with a stage 2 car on the stock pump, hence they turn the boost and fueling down to compensate. The stage 2 is designed to go as far as possible without fuel cut, which is exactly what you want with a remap.
I like performance without the noise.
.... :happy2: That's the reasoning, Sy - Exactly as Keith @ JKM said - I didn't fully understand your previous post.
I like my performance with noiz! :happy2: - At least, when I'm using the throttle.
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Interesting discussion this, cheers guys.
Quick update my Ed30 currently has a St1 Revo map plus Autotech HFFP.
Then a Milltek DP & Cat, plus Dbilas induction kit was fitted.
As a guide I fully intend to keep my car...probably forever. So I don't want to squeeze engine components to bursting point. Or chase pub numbers.
So for extra cooling purposes I'm now thinking of a Forge Twintercooler, hence my pleading and hopeful attempt at a group buy..anyone else keen?
My pondering now is whether to stay at St1 (unlikely), go to 2 (possible),
or go for St2+ (probably) - but only a mild version of the 'Plus'.
I have chatted with PDT about this and respect Dave's knowledge on these things so I think I'm certain of the way forward, but if any one else has views or horror stories it would be good to know.
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stop thinking about POWER its more about how the car drives and handles :driver: if you want power then your in the wrong car :rolleye: get something fast out of the box and then fiddle with it :pomppomp:
:confused:
The whole point of mapping is to up the power. But I fully agree it's how the car delivers the power and handles.
The beauty about the VAG TFSi/TSi engines is you can turn a fairly quick car in to a very quick car for the less than buying a very fast car to begin with.
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yes but you cant up the power and not think about how the car is going to react to it so you need to sort the handling out and how that extra power is going to get on to the road instead of losing it and the car pulling all over the place so having the extra power is a waste. But thats only what i think :smiley:
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I asked Revo what stage wad the best for drivability, response and overall performance, they said Stage 2 :happy2:
Seems that 2 over 1 adds low down torque and responsiveness and power with no downside
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I asked Revo what stage wad the best for drivability, response and overall performance, they said Stage 2 :happy2:
Seems that 2 over 1 adds low down torque and responsiveness and power with no downside
:happy2:
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just read all 4 pages of this thread again, very interesting, will go smoke a hamlet cigar and have a think... :drinking:
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yes but you cant up the power and not think about how the car is going to react to it so you need to sort the handling out and how that extra power is going to get on to the road instead of losing it and the car pulling all over the place so having the extra power is a waste. But thats only what i think :smiley:
....It's also what I think :happy2:
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just read all 4 pages of this thread again, very interesting, will go smoke a hamlet cigar and have a think... :drinking:
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So does JKM's stage2 package sound a good compromise, with HPFP, TBE, Air filter and software? Surely this would be enough, then ust uprated brakes/suspension?
Dom..
p.s. only ask as this is the way I wanna go.. :)
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IMO i think the gti is a more than capable car running stage 2+. im running stage 2+ and find yes the car may roll slightly but from a recent track day iv just being on the car shocked me as such, the brakes were spot on smelt slightly but never faded and never warped. suspension slight roll and understeer but overall very balanced and stable. I personally feel that to spend lots of money on chassis mods before you get chance to fully test and feel the limits of the car then its just a case of all the gear and no idea. I think most the criticism of the cars ability on standard chassis form is down to driver error. sure if i was to start doing more track days id consider uprateing some items to make it better but for the general driver road use its 100% fine and for the odd track day and anything other id say upgrade.
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STG2+ is very safe, the whole theory of it being 'too much for the engine' is just that, a theory. The TFSi is still a vastly unexplored engine and its true potential will show in the coming years as they become cheaper and more engines appear on the used market. Much the same happened with the 1.8t and other engines.
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I wouldn't drop a stage back from my vRS ko4'd stage 3 (similiar to ED30 stage2+). It's way more fun than when i was ko3 stage2+. Also i have done huge mileage on it and nothing has broken apart from a burst rear shock. Keep the AFR in check and it should be ok.
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STG2+ is very safe, the whole theory of it being 'too much for the engine' is just that, a theory. The TFSi is still a vastly unexplored engine and its true potential will show in the coming years as they become cheaper and more engines appear on the used market. Much the same happened with the 1.8t and other engines.
thought about this old thread of mine and found it to resurrect it. have been considering stepping back to stage 2 myself after all problems i have had with transmission on 2+ lately. As dave says here, the engine may be fine on 2+ but can the transmission handle the torque for long? more likely will get an SPS switch with tamer maps on it as well as the 9/6/6 you mapped it on dave when you fitted Twinter; as dont think am ready to end my 2+ experience yet
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What transmission woes have you been having? Is it the aggressive B9 doing it with the high T6 giving alot of torque all at once?
I was thinking bout dropping to stage 1 and buying a track day car with proceeds of the APR pump, exhaust, Unibrace and keeping it as a daily, but then I drove it and thought wow this is a fun daily hack, why change it... And because i've uprated the clutch it seems a waste not to use the full potential... and if I ever sell it would have to be as a whole...(offers of £9750+)
Kinda wished I stayed at stage 1 and did the suspension, but then again I wouldn't have uprated the brakes probably, but so glad I did, cos they are awesome, aspire so much more confidence and look ace... and now stage 2+ is certainly showing the suspension needs work... nothing coilovers/ARB's and poly bushes won;t sort ;)
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I dont think i would go stage 2+ even if i had a big pot of money. I would probably use that money to buy a better car to start with, such as a 135i, and stage 1 that. :driver:
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The best overall package you can have is one which achieves a good balance between power, traction, and handling, and then remap your brain by driver training. It doesn't matter what you drive, those same elements apply.
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Yep... I have the power, just need the rest up to the same standard... then it will be a machine :)
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Yep... I have the power, just need the rest up to the same standard... then it will be a machine :)
Yes, and not just a machine but one which lives and breathes (as stealthwolf says in his forum sig) :happy2:
Taut and tactile, like a fine female.
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I dont think i would go stage 2+ even if i had a big pot of money. I would probably use that money to buy a better car to start with, such as a 135i, and stage 1 that. :driver:
If i was to buy a K03 TFSi again, i dont think id take it to stage 2+ again either, i would however look at just adding a K04 turbo with a custom map. Its a much cheaper way of achieving 280-300hp on this engine than staying with the K03 and adding the intake, exhaust, intercooler, fuel pump etc.
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If i was to buy a K03 TFSi again, i dont think id take it to stage 2+ again either, i would however look at just adding a K04 turbo with a custom map. Its a much cheaper way of achieving 280-300hp on this engine than staying with the K03 and adding the intake, exhaust, intercooler, fuel pump etc.
....The total cost of a K03 to K04 conversion with all necessary parts and map will surely be more than adding an intake, TBE exhaust, intercooler, fuel pump (even an APR).
For a start, when converting a K03 to K04 you would need a TBE exhaust, HPFP, and probably intercooler, anyway. I think you made a mistake there, Sy.
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If i was to buy a K03 TFSi again, i dont think id take it to stage 2+ again either, i would however look at just adding a K04 turbo with a custom map. Its a much cheaper way of achieving 280-300hp on this engine than staying with the K03 and adding the intake, exhaust, intercooler, fuel pump etc.
....The total cost of a K03 to K04 conversion with all necessary parts and map will surely be more than adding an intake, TBE exhaust, intercooler, fuel pump (even an APR).
For a start, when converting a K03 to K04 you would need a TBE exhaust, HPFP, and probably intercooler, anyway. I think you made a mistake there, Sy.
Only OEM ed30 part though, of which most are the same as the GTI anyway.
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^^^^
I reckon that it would still be more expensive without those OEM parts, Rich.
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To stage 2+ a GTI...
TBE £1000
APR HPFP £800
Intercooler ~£500
REVO Stage 2 software ~£600
Total =£2900
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To stage 2+ a GTI...
TBE £1000
APR HPFP £800
Intercooler ~£500
REVO Stage 2 software ~£600
Total = £2900
K03 to K04 conversion (by JKM) = £4600
That's doing it properly. http://www.jkm.org.uk/performance/tsiK04conversion.htm
What's Awesome's APR price?
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• REVO 2.0 TSI K04 Turbocharger.
• REVO Software for the K04 Turbocharger / 2.0 TSI.
• EVOMS 2.0 TSI Intake System. Not needed
• Audi S3 intercooler and required pipe work. Not really needed
• Milltek Hi Flow Cat and Downpipe (Audi S3 item used) Not needed, standard exhaust will be ok for 300bhp
• Milltek Cat Back Non Resonated Exhaust System. Not needed
• Torque Arm insert. Not needed
• Before and After Dyno Dynamics Rolling Road Power run tests!
• Substantial Road tesing and Data logging.
• All Labour for a complete Standard car drive in, K04 conversion car drive out.
Thats for the TSI engine robin... not the TFSI
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To stage 2+ a GTI...
TBE £1000
APR HPFP £800
Intercooler ~£500
REVO Stage 2 software ~£600
Total =£2900
Or
DP(2nd hand) £300
Exhaust(ex display :) ) £350
HPFP (2nd hand 700miles) £460
EVOMS(new) £300
Intercooler(new) £260
£1670 :)
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To stage 2+ a GTI...
TBE £1000
APR HPFP £800
Intercooler ~£500
REVO Stage 2 software ~£600
Total =£2900
Or
DP (2nd hand) £300
Exhaust (ex display :) ) £350
HPFP (2nd hand 700miles) £460
EVOMS (new) £300
Intercooler (new) £260
£1670 :)
....Be fair, Dom - Compare new prices with new prices.
What about injectors needed for K04 on a K03 car.
Even back in 2009(?) when I replaced my K03 (with a newer K03) the K04 conversion cost was ~£3,500.
There's more to it than just spannering on a bigger turbo.... Unless you want problems further down the road.
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If i was to buy a K03 TFSi again, i dont think id take it to stage 2+ again either, i would however look at just adding a K04 turbo with a custom map. Its a much cheaper way of achieving 280-300hp on this engine than staying with the K03 and adding the intake, exhaust, intercooler, fuel pump etc.
....The total cost of a K03 to K04 conversion with all necessary parts and map will surely be more than adding an intake, TBE exhaust, intercooler, fuel pump (even an APR).
For a start, when converting a K03 to K04 you would need a TBE exhaust, HPFP, and probably intercooler, anyway. I think you made a mistake there, Sy.
I think the mistake is on your side Robin :booty:
Think about a stock Ed30. What differs between that and a stock K03?... its only the K04 Turbo, relocated DV and S3 injectors (thats ignoring any internal differences such as cams/pistons). The exhaust, intercooler, HPFP and intake are IDENTICAL.
So if a stage 1 K04 TFSI is approx 280-300hp whilst still utilizing the STOCK exhaust, STOCK Intake, STOCK intercooler and STOCK high pressure fuel pump then please tell me why that cant be applied to a KO3 engine with the same KO4 turbo attached and also please tell me why you MUST Have an exhaust the moment you install a KO4?
As said before since the exhaust, fuel pump, intake and intercooler are identical on a KO4 and KO3 engine, if you were to merely bolt the following onto a KO3 TFSIengine you would effectively have a stage 1 Ed30 setup(barring any internal difference in compression/cams etc):
KO4 Turbo £700
DV relocation £50
S3 Injectors £100
So actually the total cost for 280-300hp doing the above method would be £1350 and as you say, a K03 setup in order to return approx 280hp needs about £3000 being thrown at it. And which will be the most highly stretched
:innocent:
YOur getting confused as to what the comparison relates to.
A stage 3 K04 Converted setup on a 2.0TFSI K03 based engine is th equivalent of a stage 2+ K04 TFSI engine.
What im talking about is making the K03 TFSI engine the same specification as a stage 1 Ed30. And we both know a stage 2+ KO3 is roughly the same output as a stage 1 K04
Also, i know someone who has this done to their vRS, so i know its possible :P
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^^^^
Thanks, Sy - That explains it all very well :drinking:
I guess that my thinking that it would be very limiting having a remap without also a TBE exhaust led to my conclusions. Surely you need a remap when you go from K03 to K04?
I remember all the debate about the internal/strength differences between the Ed30 and the Mk5 GTI when the Ed30 became available. To this day, I'm not sure that anyone really knows for certain everything that VW did. Being somewhat cautious about the extent to which I modify my K03 GTI, I step back from either Stage 2+ software or a K04 conversion.
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Standard injectors (K03 engine) can flow 300bhp so all you really need for 300bhp is:
- k04 turbo
- discharge pipe
- DV relocation
- downpipe & Sports Cat (for a JKM 300bhp)
- custom remap
:happy2:
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^^^^
Even with a Quaife diff I'm happy with ~270 bhp and smooth dyno plots. I hate wheelspin. I also prefer some headroom in the tolerance limits for reliability. So 300 bhp is not for me in this car. I like the slightly livelier K03 turbo too. ETTO :happy2:
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^^^^
Even with a Quaife diff I'm happy with ~270 bhp and smooth dyno plots. I hate wheelspin. I also prefer some headroom in the tolerance limits for reliability. So 300 bhp is not for me in this car. I like the slightly livelier K03 turbo too. ETTO :happy2:
Mine with only stage 1 is so lively it can spin the wheels in 2nd & third in the dry, when I drove an S3 (K04) it felt very sluggish low down in comparison.
The K03 is a very flexible turbo and is probably what got the GTI it's reputation for being so lag free :notworthy:
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What transmission woes have you been having? Is it the aggressive B9 doing it with the high T6 giving alot of torque all at once?
I was thinking bout dropping to stage 1 and buying a track day car with proceeds of the APR pump, exhaust, Unibrace and keeping it as a daily, but then I drove it and thought wow this is a fun daily hack, why change it... And because i've uprated the clutch it seems a waste not to use the full potential... and if I ever sell it would have to be as a whole...(offers of £9750+)
Kinda wished I stayed at stage 1 and did the suspension, but then again I wouldn't have uprated the brakes probably, but so glad I did, cos they are awesome, aspire so much more confidence and look ace... and now stage 2+ is certainly showing the suspension needs work... nothing coilovers/ARB's and poly bushes won;t sort ;)
gearbox and dmf killed = torque killed them. Already had Sachs clutch in with the Wavetrac and the clutch was fine and Steve put it back in.
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iirc if you already have revo installed, the software from stage 2/2+ K03 to k04 is £100.
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^^^^
Thanks, Sy - That explains it all very well :drinking:
I guess that my thinking that it would be very limiting having a remap without also a TBE exhaust led to my conclusions. Surely you need a remap when you go from K03 to K04?
A remap will 100 % need to be installed, but it wouldnt be an off the shelf setup like APR or REVO as they dont cater for this. It would need to be a bespoke custom setup.
Regarding it being limiting. It depends what your after. Would you say a stage 1 Ed30 is limited in its performance?
I think 300hp is more than enough in a FWD car so adding the exhaust/intake etc as well as the K04 turbo you will end up with damn site more than 300hp and also with a much larger dent in the wallet.
The reason i posted this is because the OP started his first post asking if stage 2+ was a step to far for some people. I had mine at stage 2+ and in hindsight i think id have preferred to go the route i've mentioned in earlier. Same power, less cost and with less stress and strain on the fueling system and the turbo.
at the end of the day a K04 turbo at 300Hp is a damn site less stressed than a 280Hp K03 turbo, the much more headroom with the S3 injectors and there is much less of a heat soak problem.
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Are yoy crazy :stupid:
Go drive a stage 2+ eddie, i dont regret it at all, i didnt pay for my software and got bits at cost so is diffrent for me but one thing i will say is a stage 2+ eddie is great fun, it takes half a brain cell to learn when to plant and when not to plant it so the whole traction thing is bull imo
Ive had a bloke in a new RS6 stop me because he couldnt catch me and he wonderd what the hell my car was, granted he would do me top end but it isnt top trumps....
to me that makes it worth it, my eddie makes me smile and we mod our cars to make them faster than the competition...i can build a car that suits me for less than buying a GTR because is my eyes a GTR would be my next move, 45K for a gtr plus its running costs makes my eddie a bargain in my eyes...
Im dsg tho so didnt have to buy a clutch (yet!) And i got parts cheap and a deal on my software, so for me its a bargain but its all down to personal prefference, its what a car needs to be for YOU..if you want good fuel consumption and a nippy car then you have the wrong car and your modding the wrong car
Each to there own :drinking:
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Are yoy crazy :stupid:
Go drive a stage 2+ eddie, i dont regret it at all, i didnt pay for my software and got bits at cost so is diffrent for me but one thing i will say is a stage 2+ eddie is great fun, it takes half a brain cell to learn when to plant and when not to plant it so the whole traction thing is bull imo
Ive had a bloke in a new RS6 stop me because he couldnt catch me and he wonderd what the hell my car was, granted he would do me top end but it isnt top trumps....
to me that makes it worth it, my eddie makes me smile and we mod our cars to make them faster than the competition...i can build a car that suits me for less than buying a GTR because is my eyes a GTR would be my next move, 45K for a gtr plus its running costs makes my eddie a bargain in my eyes...
Im dsg tho so didnt have to buy a clutch (yet!) And i got parts cheap and a deal on my software, so for me its a bargain but its all down to personal prefference, its what a car needs to be for YOU..if you want good fuel consumption and a nippy car then you have the wrong car and your modding the wrong car
Each to there own :drinking:
Well said mate...good to hear about the rs6 too..I'm with r-tech at the moment but seriously thinking of switching to revo stg2+ as r-tech are too far from me as I've moved house..had a custom map from r-tech but since after I've done all stg2+ mods so need a remap to match all mods I've done
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Slightly off topic, but would love to know,
How do the Stage 1 300bhp+ K04 (Ed30 etc) get away with manageable EGT's when they share the same DP/Precat as a K03 GTI which requires a new 'DP / Sports Cat / Decat' to obtain managable EGT's @ 260+bhp?
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Slightly off topic, but would love to know,
How do the Stage 1 300bhp+ K04 (Ed30 etc) get away with manageable EGT's when they share the same DP/Precat as a K03 GTI which requires a new 'DP / Sports Cat / Decat' to obtain managable EGT's @ 260+bhp?
Turbo is under less load, so the EGT's are lower coming out of the turbo. :smiley:
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What sort of EGT's do the Stage 1 ED.30 see? I'm getting spikes of 900*C @ 22PSI (too hot?)
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What sort of EGT's do the Stage 1 ED.30 see? I'm getting spikes of 900*C @ 22PSI (too hot?)
According to Revo, up to low 900's is said to be safe long term. :smiley:
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Nice one, cheers for that, makes me feel a bit better now :happy2: