MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Modifications & Technical Area => Performance Modifications => Topic started by: Carrera2RS on March 28, 2011, 05:55:24 am
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Gents, I have been reading up and found this
http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123479
Plus a few threads on this forum. I am wondering if the improvement with S3 arms is weight related or camber covers most of it. I am thinking about camber plates and/or alloy TT arms plus some better, lighter brakes (VWR, AP, Brembo or Stoptech)
Any experiences and costings with the lower arm options would be appreciated. I currently run with a walk
:smiley:
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Your best bet for the camber adjustment on the front is the TT arms, i think you get 2.5 degrees of camber adjustment possibly 3 degrees. it is preferential to have the camber applied form the bottom rather than at the top mounts, they are also a lot lighter than the stock arms. I have KW clubsports with the top mounts and they are designed for this and yet still pop a bit over bumps. So i imagine if you fit aftermarket top mounts you might get a fair bit of knocking and banging over rough ground. I am just about to add some S3 lower arms + s3 hubs to lighten up the front a bit more. :happy2:
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Topcat, tks :happy2:
I will do some more reading, I want to keep road harshness to a minimum, so if I can acheive a reduction in unsprung weight, camber adjustability and keep my WALK kit. TT or S3 arms sound great.
Not sure of the differences, running 8x18 ET45's I do not want to increase the track
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I have some S3 arms if any one needs some, £50 plus postage or collect
Darren
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Topcat, tks :happy2:
I will do some more reading, I want to keep road harshness to a minimum, so if I can acheive a reduction in unsprung weight, camber adjustability and keep my WALK kit. TT or S3 arms sound great.
Not sure of the differences, running 8x18 ET45's I do not want to increase the track
The S3 arms only give 0.5 degree of extra camber, so you would need the TT ones. For out and out handling the track increase is better than the top adjustment, but i see your dilemma. it all depends on how low you take the car. at 12mil extra poke which is what you have now, you are right on the limit of getting rubbing if lowered. my daily wheels are 8.5j 45 ET which is why i went for the clubsports initially, found out how great they were and started doing track days, ended up changing loads of bits now. :laugh:
My TD's are 7.5j 45 ET which means i get zero rubbing no matter what the situation. to be honest i am not sure in this but changing the camber at the bottom rather than at the top is going to give you negligible difference in terms of increasing the chances of rubbing. The weight of the set up has also got to be taken into account and all your lighter bits will lessen the chance of rubbing a bit. :happy2:
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Are these correct or do I need the later ones ?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/AUDI-TT-FRONT-LOWER-SUSPENSION-ARM-WISHBONE-B-JOINT-/400159740570?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item5d2b61129a
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They look like the right ones, but you need one of the forum Geeks to answer that for you, i have no idea on changes to model numbers and spec details :rolleye: :happy2:
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The S3 arms only give 0.5 degree of extra camber, so you would need the TT ones.
The S3 arm don't give any aditional camber. They are geometrically identical
to the Golf's steel arms.
The TT arms give a plus of 1° or so and they are - of course - adjustable.
Both are about half of the weight compared to the cast steel arms.
But remember there are also arms made of sheet steel that are as light weight
as the forged aluminium arms from Cupra, Passat, S3, TT (but not as strong).
Reducing weight is even more effective if you replace the hubs for the S3/Passat
or even TT one. The TT hubs will also lift the center of roll which improves handling
by a large margin.
ps:
why not going on in one of the older threads?
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I now think they are too good to be true at the price as the piccies on the US thread show very alloy looking arms, perhaps the early TT's were steel :stupid:
Forum Geeks, help :rolleye:
I think the TT's are the same length, so no problem with my +6mm on rim width and +6mm on offset, so I agree I have a 24mm track increae already over stock. its when you change the hubs to S3 that the track increases by 26mm I think, so 13mm a side ?
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The S3 arms only give 0.5 degree of extra camber, so you would need the TT ones.
The S3 arm don't give any aditional camber. They are geometrically identical
to the Golf's steel arms.
The TT arms give a plus of 1° or so and they are - of course - adjustable.
Both are about half of the weight compared to the cast steel arms.
But remember there are also arms made of sheet steel that are as light weight
as the forged aluminium arms from Cupra, Passat, S3, TT (but not as strong).
Reducing weight is even more effective if you replace the hubs for the S3/Passat
or even TT one. The TT hubs will also lift the center of roll which improves handling
by a large margin.
ps:
why not going on in one of the older threads?
Bruce, tks
More reading required :notworthy:
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I think I have settled on the TT arms with balljoints. The list appears to be this
TT Aluminum Control Arms Parts List (pricing from genuineaudivwparts):
8J0 407 151 D (need 2 Same part # left and right) $216.00 X 2
Ball Joints
8J0 407 365 $92.16
8J0 407 366 $92.16
Ball Joint Nuts
N 103 320 02 $0.66 - need 6
N 909 429 01 $1.07 - need 2
Ball Joint Bolt Stud Brackets:
8J0 407 175 $11.88
8J0 407 176 $11.88
Bolt for Rear Bracket to sub-frame
N 105 797 01 $1.32 need 4
Bolt for Rear Bracket to frame
N 908 235 01 $1.87 need 2
Bolt for Front Bracket- horizontal
N 101 410 01 $2.82 need 2
12 Point Axel Bolts
WHT 002 795 $2.82 need 2
My only remaining questions are where is the cheapest and will the WALK fit :party:
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I think I have settled on the TT arms with balljoints. The list appears to be this
TT Aluminum Control Arms Parts List (pricing from genuineaudivwparts):
8J0 407 151 D (need 2 Same part # left and right) $216.00 X 2
Ball Joints
8J0 407 365 $92.16
8J0 407 366 $92.16
Ball Joint Nuts
N 103 320 02 $0.66 - need 6
N 909 429 01 $1.07 - need 2
Ball Joint Bolt Stud Brackets:
8J0 407 175 $11.88
8J0 407 176 $11.88
Bolt for Rear Bracket to sub-frame
N 105 797 01 $1.32 need 4
Bolt for Rear Bracket to frame
N 908 235 01 $1.87 need 2
Bolt for Front Bracket- horizontal
N 101 410 01 $2.82 need 2
12 Point Axel Bolts
WHT 002 795 $2.82 need 2
My only remaining questions are where is the cheapest and will the WALK fit :party:
Q2. yes WALK will fit, mine did :wink:
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Great, just need to find cheap place for parts.
Then me thinks it's time for some lighter bigger anchors :evilgrin:
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The TT arms are longer that the normal GTI ones.
About the TT hubs..
1. Do they fit on a mk5? I tired to figure that out but could not do so :( (the brakes will definitely fit, what about the steering rod?).
2. If they fit will we have to change the wheel bearing (or is it the same - just to let you know there are 2 different hubs and bearings on a mk5 depending on the model/year/engine....; so my guess is that we have to change them also)?
Could you guys post a image with the full TT hubs (I saw the one taken only for the arm pivot).
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The bearings will fit from all what I know. :wink:
The steering rod will cause the biggest problem as replacing them by the TT rods
might be difficult cos the TT has a different steering rack.
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Looking at prices (thanks Edition 30) seems that all the parts new are likely to be £350-400 all in inc VAT.
This is no more expensive than some top mounts :happy2:
Plus the end result in terms of camber will be the same, roll centre much better, 2+kg lighter per corner and include a WALK for caster a far better solution it would seem.
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Are these correct or do I need the later ones ?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/AUDI-TT-FRONT-LOWER-SUSPENSION-ARM-WISHBONE-B-JOINT-/400159740570?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item5d2b61129a
They are mk1 tt cast arms. Look at the rear bush. It is pressed into the arm. mk2 tt/mk5 golfs have the rear bush in a seperate hosing like the WALK.
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Yes, sorry for not mentioning that this picture shows Mk1 arms.
The MkII are alloys and shown here very well in this A3 thread http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/new-a3-s3-sportback-8p-chassis/71940-tt-suspension-arms-fitted-my-a3.html
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The TT arms are longer that the normal GTI ones.
About the TT hubs..
1. Do they fit on a mk5? I tired to figure that out but could not do so :( (the brakes will definitely fit, what about the steering rod?).
2. If they fit will we have to change the wheel bearing (or is it the same - just to let you know there are 2 different hubs and bearings on a mk5 depending on the model/year/engine....; so my guess is that we have to change them also)?
Could you guys post a image with the full TT hubs (I saw the one taken only for the arm pivot).
I have just measured the GTI arms against the TT arms, the TT are shorter than the GTI ones :confused:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi715.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww160%2Fjakethemoss%2FIMG_3636netversion.jpg&hash=e397ce56cf83de60deee4938cd908d77a871cbdd)
GTI
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi715.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww160%2Fjakethemoss%2FIMG_3638_rettet.jpg&hash=e910b35c678167f7277e81c6bb2dd523e377e10e)
TT
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi715.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww160%2Fjakethemoss%2FIMG_3642-netversion.jpg&hash=84fc79e93061eafd10747d4baa26dec6a5d7468a)
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Interesting... Why do we have more camber and the wheel clearly is pushed out with the TT arms? :confused:
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Interesting comparison Jake.
*waits for technical guru explanation :popcornsoda:
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Lots of info on here about roll centre and why the TT arms are better positioned etc
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5469326-US-versus-Euro-Height-amp-tire-sizing-Ride-Handling-Balance-Woes
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The T arms may well be shorter than GTI's, but the TT arm + ball joint = longer than the GTI arm + ball joint
They are 6 to 12mm longer than GTI arms depending on adjustment :happy2:
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The T arms may well be shorter than GTI's, but the TT arm + ball joint = longer than the GTI arm + ball joint
They are 6 to 12mm longer than GTI arms depending on adjustment :happy2:
I have come to the same conclusion, i just haven't picked up the TT ball joints yet. But fact is the arms itself is shorter :smiley:
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The T arms may well be shorter than GTI's, but the TT arm + ball joint = longer than the GTI arm + ball joint
They are 6 to 12mm longer than GTI arms depending on adjustment :happy2:
Yes, this is the only way why the complete TT arm assembly is 'longer'.
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If you look closely at the pic you will see the angle of the rear part of the GTi and s3 arms is the same, but the TT arm has a greater angle. Is the measurement from the ball joint to the back of the arm that is important in this case.
This is also the reason the caster angle changes much morewith the TT arms than the other arms.
As the TT arm is much further forward than the other arms the rod end needs extending to get the toe in line and this increases the track width at the bottom of the wheel and thus creates more camber.
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If you look closely at the pic you will see the angle of the rear part of the GTi and s3 arms is the same, but the TT arm has a greater angle. Is the measurement from the ball joint to the back of the arm that is important in this case.
This is also the reason the caster angle changes much morewith the TT arms than the other arms.
As the TT arm is much further forward than the other arms the rod end needs extending to get the toe in line and this increases the track width at the bottom of the wheel and thus creates more camber.
I'll measure them tomorrow Alex :happy2:
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How much extra caster would you say the TT arms add Alex? :popcornsoda:
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How much extra caster would you say the TT arms add Alex? :popcornsoda:
Around 1 deg. With a walk kit its 2 degs.
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If i remember rightly a std GTI has approx 7.5 Degs. What would you say the optimum amount would be for a MK5?
I thought the WALK added 0.5 degs ?
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8.5 to 9 is about right. If you run TT arms on stock hubs. It drops back to around 8 if you fit the TT arms and hubs together.
The walk with the tt setup seems to add more.
Jake, can you measure the arms from the ball joints too. TT one with the ball joint all the way in and out.
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standard castor on a GTI is about 7.5 degrees yeah
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8.5 to 9 is about right. If you run TT arms on stock hubs. It drops back to around 8 if you fit the TT arms and hubs together.
The walk with the tt setup seems to add more.
Jake, can you measure the arms from the ball joints too. TT one with the ball joint all the way in and out.
Please draw a line on a photo of it so i get the right part. I'll pick up the parts you gave me the numbers for tomorrow Alex :happy2:
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I can measure them tonight if we know where to measure from / to.
I have 3 sets in the garage. anyone wanna buy some :signLOL:
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I can measure them tonight if we know where to measure from / to.
I have 3 sets in the garage. anyone wanna buy some :signLOL:
You dog you :grin:
How about some TT driveshafts Jon? :party:
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The driveshafts could be a minefield Jake, there are several different part numbers for them on etka.
There are some rear hubs from a fwd TT available though if they are of interest to you?
Just had a look at measuring the TT arms, as you have the s3 and GTI arms as well its probably best that you measure them all so there is consistency. As the point of measuring is to directly compare them etc.
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The driveshafts could be a minefield Jake, there are several different part numbers for them on etka.
There are some rear hubs from a fwd TT available though if they are of interest to you?
Just had a look at measuring the TT arms, as you have the s3 and GTI arms as well its probably best that you measure them all so there is consistency. As the point of measuring is to directly compare them etc.
I'm up for the rear hubs.
I've also got another set of TT hubs and wishbones!
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What benefit do rear tt hubs give?
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What benefit do rear tt hubs give?
Being alloy, and possibly wider track :smiley:
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I read somewhere that they aren't any lighter.
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I have 3 sets in the garage. anyone wanna buy some :signLOL:
3 sets of TT arms or hubs?
How about some TT driveshafts Jon? :party:
Jake why would you need TT driveshafts?
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I have 3 sets in the garage. anyone wanna buy some :signLOL:
3 sets of TT arms or hubs?
How about some TT driveshafts Jon? :party:
Jake why would you need TT driveshafts?
I have this nagging idea that they are a little bit longer than the ones fitted to the GTI, just an idea nothing concrete i'm afraid :smiley:
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Would these by suitable ?
2 x http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Wishbone-Suspension-Control-Arm-Audi-Tt-0-/371183811093
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/400783806718
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/311119079050
My Ed30 has just over 110k, I reckon those rubber bushes must be tired by now, might as well change to something that improves handling too.
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^^^^ For that price i'd get genuine Cupra R/S3 alloy arms from Dave@Sere motors in Belfast. Email - hawthornedb@yahoo.co.uk
I bought off him last year @ £83.53 each :happy2:
Part numbers 1K0 407 151 B
1K0 407 152 B
Then jump on the group buy and get Superpro adjustable ball joints
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,89729.0.html (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,89729.0.html)
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The Cupra R and S3 wishbones don't give the extra negative camber?
Only the TT and Morego ones do I believe. Otherwise a great idea.
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Your right they don't, but with the Superpro adjustable ball joints as suggested they do.
TT arms and ball joints give negative camber, but they also give an extra 10mm track which can cause problems with rubbing if you have aftermarket wheels or running low
That's why I suggested getting the Superpro, you get the weight saving of the alloy arms and the negative camber from the ball joints and save the hassle of rubbing :wink:
I've run the TT arms previously and have moved to the set up above for the reasons stated
HTH. :drinking:
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I see what you mean now - I'm unlikely to lower the car - too many pot holes around here. Don't suppose you are selling your TT arms ?
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There long gone at this stage :happy2:
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Im a bit in over my head at this since Im not really mechanically minded, but if I were to get the TT or S3 suspension arms are they just a direct fit/replacement or do I require anything else? Ive a creaking coming from this area and I figure its the bushes so I might as well upgrade them if they are going to have to come off anyway.
I already have the superpro anti lift kit and ball joint kit.
Thanks
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Your right they don't, but with the Superpro adjustable ball joints as suggested they do.
TT arms and ball joints give negative camber, but they also give an extra 10mm track which can cause problems with rubbing if you have aftermarket wheels or running low
That's why I suggested getting the Superpro, you get the weight saving of the alloy arms and the negative camber from the ball joints and save the hassle of rubbing :wink:
I've run the TT arms previously and have moved to the set up above for the reasons stated
HTH. :drinking:
Sorry to resurrect an old thread but....I'm guessing all of you are playing with all these suspension components but don't have upgraded brakes?? I have 6 pot AP calipers and 356x32mm 2 piece AP discs. I purchased the superpro adjustable ball joints, went to fit them and they hit the back of my brake disc. Would fitting TT arms give me the -2.0 degrees of camber i am looking to achieve?
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Your right they don't, but with the Superpro adjustable ball joints as suggested they do.
TT arms and ball joints give negative camber, but they also give an extra 10mm track which can cause problems with rubbing if you have aftermarket wheels or running low
That's why I suggested getting the Superpro, you get the weight saving of the alloy arms and the negative camber from the ball joints and save the hassle of rubbing :wink:
I've run the TT arms previously and have moved to the set up above for the reasons stated
HTH. :drinking:
Sorry to resurrect an old thread but....I'm guessing all of you are playing with all these suspension components but don't have upgraded brakes?? I have 6 pot AP calipers and 356x32mm 2 piece AP discs. I purchased the superpro adjustable ball joints, went to fit them and they hit the back of my brake disc. Would fitting TT arms give me the -2.0 degrees of camber i am looking to achieve?
Depending on the hubs you have, then yes. Actually the TT hubs will allow for the lowest amount of negative camber, on S3/Passat alloy hubs the TT arms has to be fitted opposite of how they are intended to be fitted with the TT hubs, which will allow for quite a large amount of negative camber. I have made a tread on here where the different options are explained
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,41189.0.html
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TT ball joints with probably foul the discs too. Better off with adjustable top mounts.