MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: Homer on April 05, 2011, 12:39:13 pm
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From what I can gather this is accurate? If so what is the advantage of a KO4 over KO3 and is it possible to change the turbo to a KO4 and how much would this cost? Thanks in advance
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KO4 is a bigger turbo and is capable of shifting more air, but it takes longer to spool up as any bigger turbo does, people have done KO4 conversions its fairly expensive as you also need new software etc and KO4 engines normally have some different engine internals to cope with the extra torque so its pushing the standard KO3 block. You would probably be better changing your car rather than changing your turbo unless you want something out of the ordinary.
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I agree.
Moving to an ED30/Pirelli/Cupra/S3/Golf R would be a better way to get into a KO4'd car than doing a conversion. :happy2:
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Aye. K03 spools up at around 1750 and K04 is nearer the 3000 rpm mark.
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Ed30 can feel a bit boggy especially in 2nd gear below 3K rpm!
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Aye. K03 spools up at around 1750 and K04 is nearer the 3000 rpm mark.
Would i be right in thinking then that because of this the stock edition 30 is only marginally quicker to 60 than the stock Gti because the KO3 is prob a fraction quicker to say 30?
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Think that's correct. In fact there's 0.3 seconds difference between the two in 0-60mph.
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Looked at doing the K04 upgrade and it just came to too much dosh to do it the right way, easier to sell your car standard and go up a grand or 2 and get an ED30 or similar and then spend the other 1k on suspension and towards a chip. It needs new turbo (obviously), new cam and followers with a new upgraded fuel pump... that was were I lost track of what I was told. Cool if you can do all the work yourself I suppose but hand it to a trusted specialised and you don't get much change from 3k if your lucky.
Saw a brand new K04 turbo go on ebay for about 750 and thought it was the time to act until I got the estimate on the other work - then calculated how much less my car would be worth after the work, not being a true ED30. Hard to sell a half thing unless you go for the full retard and upgrade everything and sell it as a fully sorted car - even then it's not a good marketplace at the moment for getting rid of these cars.
I would still do the job though if I decided to keep the car for track days and fun and didn't care about selling it but until then it will be a rip-snoarter K03, lets face it your only losing out on about 40hp in real world high tune. Throw in a Milltek full, filter and a stage 2 chip and you gt 260-270 anyhow, some get 300 if you push the boat out and with the ED30 you will get a similar increase 290 - 340 if u push the boat out.
Love your K03 and cherish it, it's what you were blessed with.
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It's a K03s remember, not a regular K03.
...also, if you're talking turbo upgrades, don't be a girl; GT35 is the way to go.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.atpturbo.com%2Fmm5%2Fgraphics%2F00000001%2FCatalog%2520Images%2FTurbochargers%2FGT3540R-225225.jpg&hash=e2063c3ee6a8642ffdb061e633eb45a85c4450f2)
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don't be a girl; GT35 is the way to go.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.atpturbo.com%2Fmm5%2Fgraphics%2F00000001%2FCatalog%2520Images%2FTurbochargers%2FGT3540R-225225.jpg&hash=e2063c3ee6a8642ffdb061e633eb45a85c4450f2)
Pah GT35 load of tosh!
Now this is a turbo.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fk290%2Fspeedyf16%2F19379huge_turbo.jpg&hash=e47deeb32e952a7117ddf70cc6a86f6043a8f271)
:laugh:
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It's a K03s remember, not a regular K03.
Interesting got any more specs cmdfire? would love some stats on the turbo.
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^^^
Stolen from GolfGTI.co.uk
Ko3 - 97-2000
COMPRESSOR WHEEL
Inducer: 33.6mm
Exducer: 46mm
Tip height: 3.7mm
TURBINE WHEEL
Inducer: 45mm
Exducer: 38mm
Tip height: 6.8mm
Blades: 11
Ko3S - 01+
COMPRESSOR WHEEL
Inducer: 38mm
Exducer: 51mm
Tip height: 4.4mm
TURBINE WHEEL
Inducer: 45mm
Exducer: 38mm
Tip height: 6.8mm
Blades: 11
Ko4-015
COMPRESSOR WHEEL
Inducer: 35mm
Exducer: 50mm
Tip height: 3.7mm
TURBINE WHEEL
Inducer: 50mm
Exducer: 42mm
Tip height: 6.4mm
Blades: 11
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hmm interesting, so the compressor wheel is the cold are side I assume and the turbine wheel the hot exhaust gas side?
And the Ko4 isnt bigger in all dimensions.... I'm guessing there is some sort of gearing advantage with the ratio between the wheels. You dont have a nice diagram to explain it all do you just thinking of your nice golf ball one for the under body components :wink:
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hmm interesting, so the compressor wheel is the cold are side I assume and the turbine wheel the hot exhaust gas side?
And the Ko4 isnt bigger in all dimensions.... I'm guessing there is some sort of gearing advantage with the ratio between the wheels. You dont have a nice diagram to explain it all do you just thinking of your nice golf ball one for the under body components :wink:
There no gearing in a turbo... its just a shaft.
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Yes, the two wheels are connected via a straight shaft but there is a "gearing" effect in the sense of airflow and spin-up times.
No diagram atm but I'll see what I can dig up after work.
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Search youtube for:
Holset how a turbocharger works
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Yes, the two wheels are connected via a straight shaft but there is a "gearing" effect in the sense of airflow and spin-up times.
No diagram atm but I'll see what I can dig up after work.
Thats what I was getting at, will look up the you tube video. Cheers guys never really thought about the turbo in depth before interested to understand why the different ratios are important and what limits the Ko3s at the top end, its clearly got somethign to do with the ratio between the compressor and turbine and the reason I used the term gearing is due to the effect of the velocity of the blades on one side will be a factor different dependant on the blade radius (thats what I see in my head) obviously the shaft cant spin at different speeds. but the force exerted by the exhaust gas can be increased by increasing the turning moment....
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(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FHotties%2FVolks_n_Chicks%2FVolksBabe_13a.jpg&hash=2d5cd749a3e5eee6642984fecf0eebcd176160e0)
As cmdrfire says, note the "S" suffix on the serial # - You're meant to be looking at the plate ^ and not the babe :wink:
My original K03 Revision C failed and I considered replacing with a K04 but having learnt more now from the info posted in this thread I'm glad I didn't. I didn't realise that the K04 didn't kick in as late as around 3,000 revs - I much prefer the power at lower revs rather than in licence-losing territory.
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the K04 still isnt what you could call laggy. VAG do a very vry good job of atching turbos to engines. You should drive a WR1 or Evo FQ300 etc. they have lag by the bucket load
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Drove an evo fq300 last month, was worse than vtec.
Nothing, nothing, nothing, Nothing, nothing, nothing, Nothing, nothing, nothing, Boooooooost
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^ I observed the same as I left a roundabout neck and neck with some sort of chavvy subaru. Thought he wasn't trying as I pulled clean ahead but he soon made up for it. But by this time I was at the speed limit (and stayed there) whereas he was only really getting going. Seems a bit pointless all that power only really coming in when you cant use it - fecking fast when it does though!
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(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FHotties%2FVolks_n_Chicks%2FVolksBabe_13a.jpg&hash=2d5cd749a3e5eee6642984fecf0eebcd176160e0)
Robin that's your best p*rn post yet! :evilgrin:
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i put an ed30 stage 2+ enigne in my gti and the difference was incredible!! :driver:
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has anyone ever just considered putting the k04 turbo, injectors and DV relocation on as the first mod. with a map that would give you 280-300hp.
If the remap costs you £600, turbo costs you £800, the DV relocation £200 and the injectors £200 that would still be cheaper than going stage 2+ on the k03 turbo with stage 2+ remap, TBE, Intercooler, HPFP, and discharge pipes.
then at a later date you could add the exhaust and intake etc
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In defence of the K04 and, as someone who has gone K03 to K04, I think the decision is very much a personal one based on what journeys are usually done and driving style.
I'm not all out to defend going K04 however as there are some very valid points - it is laggier that the K03 of course (although the idea of the K03 being spooled up by 1750 rpm and the K04 kicking in from 3000 rpm is misleading!), the point about a lot of power being available in the licence-losing area is very true and the cost is certainly true. I can completely understand that for the day to day driving for some folks, a K04 would not be very beneficial, if at all, and would be a waste of a lot of money.
On saying that, I was surprised at how the K04 lag vs. increased power made the car very well behaved under normal driving conditions if that makes sense :confused: - general driving around and pulling away from junctions still has plenty of power but is in no way punishing...drop it down a gear, get in the rev range of the turbo and put the foot down and it's real Jeckyl and Hyde - the power is nuts! There is still a flip-side to that though - controlling the car is a bit more of a handful and getting the power down can be an issue (I'll be getting better tyres in future and a Quaife next week for that reason!). I may have to keep the revs up and work the gears a bit more but I would usually leave a standard or remapped K03 car behind me....although not as far behind as I would like :evilgrin: :grin:
Finally, I cheated a bit - I bought a 57 plate Octavia VRS 2 years ago with 15k on the clock at a very nice price and, even with the mods, think I must be quids in over an S3, Ed30, etc with the same age/miles...not sure about a Cupra though.
has anyone ever just considered putting the k04 turbo, injectors and DV relocation on as the first mod. with a map that would give you 280-300hp.
If the remap costs you £600, turbo costs you £800, the DV relocation £200 and the injectors £200 that would still be cheaper than going stage 2+ on the k03 turbo with stage 2+ remap, TBE, Intercooler, HPFP, and discharge pipes.
then at a later date you could add the exhaust and intake etc
If I could do it all again knowing what I know now and recognising the cost of going up stage by stage, I think I would consider this option Sy but only after handling mods like brakes, ARB and probably suspension
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(although the idea of the K03 being spooled up by 1750 rpm and the K04 kicking in from 3000 rpm is misleading!)
This was something I picked up from somewhere else a long time ago. I can't recall the precise figures but generally speaking, there is a demonstrable margin between the two.
Does anyone know the proper figures?
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Anyone put a K04 on a MKVI GTI yet?
And point me to a thread on it if there is?
Ta :happy2:
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has anyone ever just considered putting the k04 turbo, injectors and DV relocation on as the first mod. with a map that would give you 280-300hp.
If the remap costs you £600, turbo costs you £800, the DV relocation £200 and the injectors £200 that would still be cheaper than going stage 2+ on the k03 turbo with stage 2+ remap, TBE, Intercooler, HPFP, and discharge pipes.
then at a later date you could add the exhaust and intake etc
I think that the intake and exhaust mates for the K04 are different than for the K03/s - hence requiring a different intake and exhaust anyway. May be wrong on that though, happy if someone has more information.
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Ko3 intake an Ko4 intakes are slightly different due to the front located DV pipe.
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has anyone ever just considered putting the k04 turbo, injectors and DV relocation on as the first mod. with a map that would give you 280-300hp.
If the remap costs you £600, turbo costs you £800, the DV relocation £200 and the injectors £200 that would still be cheaper than going stage 2+ on the k03 turbo with stage 2+ remap, TBE, Intercooler, HPFP, and discharge pipes.
then at a later date you could add the exhaust and intake etc
If I could do it all again knowing what I know now and recognising the cost of going up stage by stage, I think I would consider this option Sy but only after handling mods like brakes, ARB and probably suspension
....Exactly my thoughts too - Power is wasted if a car's handling doesn't match. You're going to enjoy that Quaife!
As Saint Steve recently posted, when following me through some B-road twisties he felt he badly needed better brakes and handling although his remapped K04 Ed30 is much faster than my K03 GTI.
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^^^
Stolen from GolfGTI.co.uk
Ko3 - 97-2000
COMPRESSOR WHEEL
Inducer: 33.6mm
Exducer: 46mm
Tip height: 3.7mm
TURBINE WHEEL
Inducer: 45mm
Exducer: 38mm
Tip height: 6.8mm
Blades: 11
Ko3S - 01+
COMPRESSOR WHEEL
Inducer: 38mm
Exducer: 51mm
Tip height: 4.4mm
TURBINE WHEEL
Inducer: 45mm
Exducer: 38mm
Tip height: 6.8mm
Blades: 11
Ko4-015
COMPRESSOR WHEEL
Inducer: 35mm
Exducer: 50mm
Tip height: 3.7mm
TURBINE WHEEL
Inducer: 50mm
Exducer: 42mm
Tip height: 6.4mm
Blades: 11
All that info is for the K03 turbos fitted to the 1.8T rather than the 2.0TFSi. In part number terms, the K03s is not known by borg warner as the K03s. Its a term made up by people to show the difference.
The TFSi cars just have a K03 or a K04.
There is no such thing as lag if you really know how to drive a car with a bigger turbo. You drive the car in the rev range suitable for the turbo.
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You're going to enjoy that Quaife!
Yup, just got an email from JKM to say that it's on its way :wink: I've got you to blame for this mod after our chat at the RR day :happy2:
There is no such thing as lag if you really know how to drive a car with a bigger turbo. You drive the car in the rev range suitable for the turbo.
That's the point I was trying to make in my earlier post - thanks for putting it so clearly Alex
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3000rpm for the K04 is misleading, i believe that 2400rpm is more correct, and as said before, doing the K04, S3 injectors and Relocating DV as step one is possible, mine makes app. 230BHP with those stand alone parts, so looking at it as step one is okay, then take the exhaust, intake and remap later when funds permits.
If i hadn't been offered a K04 when buying the car i would have been satisfied with a K03 stage 1 and a LSD, the LSD makes the biggest difference in getting the power down and the driveability of the car, it deletes most of the understeer that the car has with bigger numbers than stock :wink:
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There will still be lag (time for the exhaust gas flow to be sufficient to spool the turbo) it just wont be experienced :laugh: on a public road that can sometimes be easier said than done! :innocent:
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has anyone ever just considered putting the k04 turbo, injectors and DV relocation on as the first mod. with a map that would give you 280-300hp.
If the remap costs you £600, turbo costs you £800, the DV relocation £200 and the injectors £200 that would still be cheaper than going stage 2+ on the k03 turbo with stage 2+ remap, TBE, Intercooler, HPFP, and discharge pipes.
then at a later date you could add the exhaust and intake etc
I think that the intake and exhaust mates for the K04 are different than for the K03/s - hence requiring a different intake and exhaust anyway. May be wrong on that though, happy if someone has more information.
KO4 requires a 3" downpipe, KO3 is a 2.75" downpipe,
I used a 2.75" on my ed30 engine and managed 343bhp on the rollers so it can still be used with good gains.
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I have a 3" miltek downpipe bolted to my k03. fitted straight on with no problems. think you'll find that ed30 and gti run 2.75" exhausts as standard.
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I find the ko3 in my gti revo remapped stage 1 a little belter, point to point I love it, also have a Nissan skyline gtr twin turbo and it does not going until you hit 2700 rpm then you take off, but still love driving the gti more :smiley:
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^^^
Stolen from GolfGTI.co.uk
Ko3 - 97-2000
COMPRESSOR WHEEL
Inducer: 33.6mm
Exducer: 46mm
Tip height: 3.7mm
TURBINE WHEEL
Inducer: 45mm
Exducer: 38mm
Tip height: 6.8mm
Blades: 11
Ko3S - 01+
COMPRESSOR WHEEL
Inducer: 38mm
Exducer: 51mm
Tip height: 4.4mm
TURBINE WHEEL
Inducer: 45mm
Exducer: 38mm
Tip height: 6.8mm
Blades: 11
Ko4-015
COMPRESSOR WHEEL
Inducer: 35mm
Exducer: 50mm
Tip height: 3.7mm
TURBINE WHEEL
Inducer: 50mm
Exducer: 42mm
Tip height: 6.4mm
Blades: 11
All that info is for the K03 turbos fitted to the 1.8T rather than the 2.0TFSi. In part number terms, the K03s is not known by borg warner as the K03s. Its a term made up by people to show the difference.
The TFSi cars just have a K03 or a K04.
There is no such thing as lag if you really know how to drive a car with a bigger turbo. You drive the car in the rev range suitable for the turbo.
Thats what I was just going to say too, Alex..
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I actually never noticed anymore lag going to Ko4 so it must be minimal. It's definately worth doing. It's way more fun than when i was stage 2+ Ko3.
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Red Robin, you summed it up there.
Once the K03 is on full tune with the right kit I don't think you're far off the perfect car for front wheel drive apart from the standard handling.
Half the power with twice the handling wins most of the time on lap times, well on shorter circuits anyway, might struggle at the N'burg ring though.
I'd take the K04 at N'burg everyday though with the good handling.
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it wont go round the bends any faster though, and you'll still be managing speeds on the straights that you wouldnt have a chance of making on a normal circuit
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Anyone put a K04 on a MKVI GTI yet?
And point me to a thread on it if there is?
Ta :happy2:
http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=172308.0
http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=179166.0
http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=162330.0
I thought there was some more by him somewere
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Aye. K03 spools up at around 1750 and K04 is nearer the 3000 rpm mark.
Would i be right in thinking then that because of this the stock edition 30 is only marginally quicker to 60 than the stock Gti because the KO3 is prob a fraction quicker to say 30?
There is no way a KO3 is better at 0-60 than a K04 because it spools up faster.. Unless of course you do a 0-60 sprint by launching the car from idle.. :laugh:
A 0-60 sprint will be done with revs at 2500 and above, so it won't matter whether it's a Ko3 or Ko4. Where the Ko3 will pick up better is during in gear acceleration (especially when in a high gear at low speeds). But lets be honest lads, the Ko4 is hardly a lag monster..
The turbo on Specky's Tigra (fastest FWD car in the country) doesn't come on boost till 6500rpm.. :surprised: Now that's laggy.. :signLOL: