MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: heavyd on May 28, 2011, 07:30:06 pm
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As titles states, I've got cooked brakes, the discs went a purple colour, smelled really bad, pedal goes a lot further down before it bites, and doesn't really do much.
So.....
Will they get better by themselves, or will discs/pads or fluid need replacing?
Thanks for any advice in advance :happy2:
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Sounds like you've boiled the fluid. Get rid of that.
Pads may well be fine with a light sanding with garnet paper.
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as above sounds like you have cooked the fluid Dom
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Damn! Just had it changed in February at the dealers aswell :confused:
Got my remap sorted today aswell :jumpmove:
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Cooked fluid - change it.
Light sandpaper on discs
Ian
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Ps when I say 'Light sandpaper' I mean use light grade sandpaper (eg 600) not set fire to sandpaper.......
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Ps when I say 'Light sandpaper' I mean use light grade sandpaper (eg 600) not set fire to sandpaper.......
:grin: :grin: :grin:
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Ps when I say 'Light sandpaper' I mean use light grade sandpaper (eg 600) not set fire to sandpaper.......
Its lucky I couldnt find any matches in the house then eh :drinking:
Ps when I say 'Light sandpaper' I mean use light grade sandpaper (eg 600) not set fire to sandpaper.......
:grin: :grin: :grin:
Cars ready for a dyno Dave :jumping: :jumping: :jumping: :jumping:
It was the DSG box that was pulling the torque back, looks like it was the same with the map you put on aswell. If you have any morning slots available next week, can you book me in for a dyno run please :party: :party:
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hows it feel in comparison. Have they mapped the DSG then?
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Feels like its been mapped again. If you bear in mind the fact the dsg box has been holding the car back even since I had the PDt map put on, now it isnt, feels like a different car.
I havent had the DSG mapped, they found a way around the problem, which is quite clever really. I should really get the Revo dsg map, but I cant seem to justify the ££ for the returns, maybe if they do an offer on it I may be tempted
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What were u doing to have cooked ur brakes btw??
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Are these the standard brakes?
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No lecture from me. I couldn't give a toss they are your brakes after all. :P
Deep down you know the answer though. :wink:
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Don't think the fuid has boiled (then you'd have nearly no brake power at all).
Guess the pads are cooked up now and should be replaced.
Buy a s pair of Tarox F2000 or G88 and a set of at least Ferodo DS2500
or even better Pagid RS4-2. And don't forget to install a brake ventilation.
Just open fog grills or remove fogs + hoses into inner fenders.
These pads aren't road legal and they might squeek sometimes, but
they can handle the heat and they bite from cold like stock. If you want
to go the legal way choose EBC Yellow or Ferodo DS Performance.
Not as good though, but cheaper and ECE R90 compliant.
NB:
We just had this question at least a 1000 times before. Try a search.
:wink:
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Thanks for replies :happy2:
I've never seen a cooked brakes question before to be honest. I know what the best pad route to go, seen plenty of those threads :laugh:
And yes Hedge youre right :drinking:
Ive got a couple of new tins of ate super blue in the shed I might stick in anyway, but I had a feeling the pads might have been cooked :sad1:
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Long pedal does suggest boiled fluid.
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pedal to the bottom > boiling fluid
just ''long pedal'' > fading ( = overheated pads)
:innocent:
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Are you talking about the build up of gas between pad and disk being compressed or something else?
In my experience pad fade had resulted in a solid pedal but massively reduced retardation but admittedly I've not used a car on track with plain faced disks for many years. :happy2:
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Oh well, I changed the brake fluid and took the face off the brake pads. The brakes are much better than they were this morning, but still arent as good as what they were before, so looks like I might have to invest in some ferodo pads :happy2:
Thanks for advice people, much appreciated :drinking:
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glad your car is sorted now Dom,well the map any way, now to do the brakes,this modding cars never stops :signLOL:
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NEW AT AUDI:
Since 3/2011 the Audi TT-RS comes with a new ventilation element
fitted to the lower arms.
Furthermore there are changed dust covers (which I would remove).
The parts numbers:
Luftführung 8P0 863 149 A and 150A 13,25€ vent
Deckblech 8J0 615 311 E and 312E 23,15€ dust cover
Schraube 2x N104 222 03 bolt
Mutter 2x N 907 611 02 nut
Hülse 2x 8J0 864 133 A ??
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tts-freunde.de%2Fboard%2Findex.php%3Fpage%3DAttachment%26amp%3BattachmentID%3D1898%26amp%3Bh%3Dbabb95318301297c310a153a8637e7c2cda90d66&hash=48ff8f789621b91198b4a33cca3af0e2873647d0)
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Servo vacuum leak??
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When.I.changed my brakes to the r32 ones right round my brakes were crap until I bedded them in and they are very sharp
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Are they bedded?
Did you bleed the system with VAGCOM, so it does all the ABS etc too??
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maybe theres something else amiss, could be servo i guess?
If you haven't fully bled the system fully id bet that could be the issue. you also have an additonal bleed nipple on the clutch iirc as they share the same resovoir. Id get a pro garage to bleed it correctly, as you might well have replaced alot of parts for no reason.
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I cooked mine at Oulton, staying out too long and not enough time in between, resulting in expensive pads ruined and discs needing skimming. Inspect your discs, look for contamination, if you have some pad material on the disc, i would say they need a light skim, sanding wont be enough, also you might need even more pads as some of the contamination might have got onto your new pads.
Never heard of cooked brakes whilst logging :laugh:. I thought you only needed to tick off what blocks you want to log the do one run through third to fourth.
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I honestly can't see it being air in the system, as system hasn't been opened, so no way air could have entered the system, the pedal isn't spongey, just lack off braking force. I just bought new set of disks, and took the top off the pads, so no contamination there. Discs were purple when they came back after datalogging and absolutely stunk :confused:
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Sounds like this remap is getting expensive :scared:
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Did you bleed the system with VAGCOM, so it does all the ABS etc too??
Quick question and hopefully not too off-topic but is recycling of the ABS pump with VCDS really necessary? I heard one story about old brake fluid hiding in there but another from a techie I think saying that it was nonsense as the ABS pump was in an 'open' state when inactive such that when pushing new fluid through the system it also pushes through the pump. Can someone clear this up?
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Deep down you know the answer though. :wink:
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,31194.0/topicseen.html (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,31194.0/topicseen.html) :innocent:
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Deep down you know the answer though. :wink:
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,31194.0/topicseen.html (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,31194.0/topicseen.html) :innocent:
I would love to buy those, but the thought that it might need a new servo is holding me back. I dont think they'll fit under pescaras either, so would need spacers and brake lines, caliper carriers etc. I think if I was going to go BBK, I'd probably just go for a brand new r32 setup for £655 :wink:
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But those aren't the BIG Porsche kit they are the NQSBBK. :smiley:
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i might be being stupid here, but if no lines have been opened how have you truly flushed all the 'old' fluid out of the system?
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Did you bleed the system with VAGCOM, so it does all the ABS etc too??
Quick question and hopefully not too off-topic but is recycling of the ABS pump with VCDS really necessary? I heard one story about old brake fluid hiding in there but another from a techie I think saying that it was nonsense as the ABS pump was in an 'open' state when inactive such that when pushing new fluid through the system it also pushes through the pump. Can someone clear this up?
If there's a procedure to follow, then it's there for a reason. :happy2:
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i might be being stupid here, but if no lines have been opened how have you truly flushed all the 'old' fluid out of the system?
I meant brake lines, obviously bleed nipples were opened slightly, 1.5 litres of ATE blue fluid, fluid coming out of all calipers were dark blue.
Pedal is solid, just not enough pressure is being exerted onto the discs when you press the pedal. Done over 50 miles on these pads, and they havent even made a wear mark on those new front discs that I fitted. I have to stamp hard to get the car to stop.
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Do you think its possible with the heat generated when your disks overheated the calipers themselves may have been damaged, perhaps the piston is a little warped out of shape or just stiff in the caliprt? giving you the vague braking rather than a progressive feel? Just an idea
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ah ok fair enough then. :happy2:
maybe worth another flush after a few more miles.
i dont suppose you now have a servo assistance failure?
if you pump the pedal (engine off) it should go hard , keep it depressed and start the car, does the pedal move away from you and gain a spongy dead first inch or so? (it should do, as the vacuum builds and the assitance kicks in)
Although without assitance its very hard to stop at all :grin:
Id the cars idle ok? recently fitted any pcv stuff? maybe the vacuum to the servo has been compromised???
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ah ok fair enough then. :happy2:
maybe worth another flush after a few more miles.
i dont suppose you now have a servo assistance failure?
if you pump the pedal (engine off) it should go hard , keep it depressed and start the car, does the pedal move away from you and gain a spongy dead first inch or so? (it should do, as the vacuum builds and the assitance kicks in)
Although without assitance its very hard to stop at all :grin:
Id the cars idle ok? recently fitted any pcv stuff? maybe the vacuum to the servo has been compromised???
Yep pedal goes hard when engine off after 3 pumps, then when engine is turned on, pedal drops quite a bit actually. Going to see if I can find my old pcv, I put a new one on in february, but there wasnt anything wrong with the old one. I was thinking maybe the caliper seals might be damaged? Also thinking about getting a brand new R32 brake kit, its only the fact I now have 2 new sets of 312 discs and new set of ds2500s thats putting me off :confused:
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if we assume your servo is working ok based on that info (and im not mechanic!), then maybe its time to confirm the action of the calipers (front) manually for each side. just remember to have something jammed in there so you dont pop the caliper pistons out ! and can lever them back in.
Theres obviously something wrong so you dont have to change to bigger brakes yet (but they do help lol), besides if it isnt the brakes and its something else (servo?) then you may still have the same issue....
lets get them back to normal first
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Why not just pop the wheel off and take the pads out and check the pistons won't take you more than 20 min to do and then you can also check how your pads have worn as if they have worn uneven you know you have a problem
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oh well, another one ruled out, pistons came out fine, nice and even :sad1:
I put the ds2500s back in to see if they can bed the discs in any better than the pagids. also bled another 0.5 ltrs of fluid out with no bubbles.
Looks like I'm going to have to go to the dealers with this one :scared: :scared: my local place only does the gravity bleed method for some reason :stupid:
Thanks for the help anyway folks :happy2:
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well youve done your best. :happy2:
Id try the flush with VCDS that danza suggested too.
given its servo, fluid and working pistons i cant see what else is wrong (unless the servos fubarred)
give it some time with the new fluid and see how it progresses
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got it booked into the stealers on monday :scared: :scared: :scared:
they said its £75 just to have a look at it, then any labour or parts is extra on top of that :sad1: :sad1:
At least I'll find out whats wrong with it for definite!
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And a empty bank balance mate,there is a garage near croft circuit who does johnny c car who are good,called acr will be cheaper
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And a empty bank balance mate,there is a garage near croft circuit who does johnny c car who are good,called acr will be cheaper
Might look into them instead :happy2:
thanks andy
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Would highly recommend Andy at ACR his knowledge is endless and he only charges about £25 to 30 an hour.
Had been chasing a problem with my car for 6 months at various garages. He figured it out in 30 mins.
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Would highly recommend Andy at ACR his knowledge is endless and he only charges about £25 to 30 an hour.
Had been chasing a problem with my car for 6 months at various garages. He figured it out in 30 mins.
Wish I had bought those s3 brakes off you the other month, then this mightnt of happened :ashamed:
I'll give him a ring tomorrow and see wht he says :happy2:
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I would say in my unbiased view BUY MY FERRARI F40 BBK which is for sale in the for sale section f :happy2:. That will stop you having brake fade cooked brakes (unless your a absolute animal) ever again, and these come with the added bonus of ripping your spin out every time you have to stop very quickly
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Our 4 pot kit might be just what your looking for :happy2:
http://www.bcsautomotive.co.uk/product_description.php?PNo=95
http://www.bcsautomotive.co.uk/photos_listing.php?CatNo=16&CatName=BCS+Pro+Brake+Kits
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Nige is that a branded XYZ kit?
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No its our kit - note the logo is proud of the casing not counter sunk or machined in ( dead easy way to spot generic castings)
6 pt due out in 4-5 weeks ( toolings cost a fortune :sick:
Cheers
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Did you bleed the system with VAGCOM, so it does all the ABS etc too??
Quick question and hopefully not too off-topic but is recycling of the ABS pump with VCDS really necessary? I heard one story about old brake fluid hiding in there but another from a techie I think saying that it was nonsense as the ABS pump was in an 'open' state when inactive such that when pushing new fluid through the system it also pushes through the pump. Can someone clear this up?
If there's a procedure to follow, then it's there for a reason. :happy2:
I thought it was only necessary to follow this procedure if you were unlucky enough to have a fluid leak that meant the system and the ABS pumps ran dry. Then the ABS pumps need to be cycled to remove air pockets. The guide for VCDS sort of supports this:
http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/cars/absbleeding.html (http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/cars/absbleeding.html)
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Our 4 pot kit might be just what your looking for :happy2:
http://www.bcsautomotive.co.uk/product_description.php?PNo=95
http://www.bcsautomotive.co.uk/photos_listing.php?CatNo=16&CatName=BCS+Pro+Brake+Kits
What is the price on that kit like if you dont mind me asking?
I've got to get my oem setup working properly first before I go BBK.
Would highly recommend Andy at ACR his knowledge is endless and he only charges about £25 to 30 an hour.
Had been chasing a problem with my car for 6 months at various garages. He figured it out in 30 mins.
Thanks andy and john for the recommendation, got booked in at ACR next wednesday :happy2:
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It might be the case that your calipers got a bit hot, possibly might recommend a seal change in the caliper.
The seals are square in section but sit within a recess that is rhomboidal, this creates the rollback that withdraws the pad when you take your foot of the pedal.
At the and of the day if you change the pads/discs/fluid/caliper seals then there very little left to do.
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It might be the case that your calipers got a bit hot, possibly might recommend a seal change in the caliper.
The seals are square in section but sit within a recess that is rhomboidal, this creates the rollback that withdraws the pad when you take your foot of the pedal.
At the and of the day if you change the pads/discs/fluid/caliper seals then there very little left to do.
rhomboidal. Didn't he used to play for Everton. :rolleye:
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You're thinking of the Greek Centre Forward Trape Ezium
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There's a set of gti calipers on eBay, do you reckon it'll be worth me buying those then dave? I remember the hassle with seals on the lamborghini calipers I bought for my mk4 golf....
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Have you approached the person that killed the brakes about the issues you are having? They may be able to help out?
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We can do the full install for £995.00 or £895.00 supply only
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Have you approached the person that cilled the brakes about the issues you are having? They may be able to help out?
They said they would have a look free of charge, but it was 6 hr round trip and £80 of fuel the last time I went there :scared:
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I recently cooked my brakes too and found that after about 500 miles of driving they came back with no problems. You will get a different pedal feel with performance pads as they are made from slightly different material and not like the OEM ones. I had this on my FRS when I put Black diamond pads on instead of brembo and had to push harder to get the same level of friction.....oh and annoying brake squeel to go along with it as they were almost race pads! I soon switched back to the brembo pads and all was good again :smiley:
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I've only browsed the many pages but were the OEM pads you bought Pagid??
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I had pagids on before, but now done about 450miles on the ds2500s
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Talking to Jim at JKM earlier and he's had a similar issue with his brakes after fitting OEM Pagid pads. Swapped them out and all was ok.
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I'm running Pagids in my R32 fronts and they are great.
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I spent a couple of hours at ACR today, their conclusion was that I need a new master cylinder :confused:
Brakes were rebled, abs pump bleed, everything else checked aswell :sad1:
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Talking to Jim at JKM earlier and he's had a similar issue with his brakes after fitting OEM Pagid pads. Swapped them out and all was ok.
Said the same thing to me on Monday.
However if you now need a new master cylinder i can't see how logging for a remap would cause that to fail. Might just be a coincidence that it was about to go anyway.
How much is that going to set you back?
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Boiled fluid can cause damage to the master cylinder seals, which ties in with the long pedal issue. Also check the seals at the calipers.
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I've been quoted £250 with genuine parts. I thought it might be a coincidence, but as dave pointed out, might be the boiled fluid has damaged the seals :fighting:
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least you have a conclusion on what it is Dom and it will fix the problem--hope you got treat well at acr
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not pleasant but at least you can effect a fix :happy2:
good luck
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just got a set of r32 calipers aswell cheap, at least I can rule out the caliper seals being cooked :evilgrin:
least you have a conclusion on what it is Dom and it will fix the problem--hope you got treat well at acr
yes andy, nota bad price he charged either :happy2:
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:happy2:
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I would want to know how a professional tuner has managed to cook your brakes whilst logging :chicken: I cant see why they would even need to touch the brakes. :popcornsoda:
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I agree Mr Cat I find that very strange behaviour. :confused:
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Ben is not a tuner, Mikka is the tuner AFAIK.
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I would want to know how a professional tuner has managed to cook your brakes whilst logging :chicken: I cant see why they would even need to touch the brakes. :popcornsoda:
Its common, on the tuning forums (the hidden forums that tuners use) its something that gets mentioned a lot by guys that datalog and test mapping out on the road. It is always caused by the tuner trying to datalog a car in 4th gear (so breaking speed limits and usully driving dangerously) and then coming up behind traffic and having to slam the brakes on, this will happen repeatidly for each run that you datalog. Its also good practice to run the car through 5th gear as well to peak RPM to check for any issues under high load, the speeds reached will be a bit :surprised:
A very well known tuner died a few years back while datalogging a car on the road, its virtually impossible for tuners to get a motor traders insurance policy that will cover them while they are tuning/mapping on the road. My advice when anyone gives their car to a tuner to drive on the road to test or tune is to ask for written proof that these practices are covered by their policy.
Nearly all motor taders policies will have indemnity cover, so if any damage is caused while the car is in their possesion (such as cooked brakes) then they should be insured to cover the costs.
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Is it not possible to use a loaded dyno to the same effect as road logging?
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It certainly is, but they only just bought a dyno :driver:
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Are you sure he hasnt just stepped off noahs arc? :signLOL:
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They're well established on briskoda, they have the monopoly on there. Map would have been right the first time, but the dsg limited the power, guess there aren't many skodas get mapped with dsg boxes!
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Just to play devils advocate a little, theres always a possibility the master cylinder was on the way out though and the road logging tipped it over the edge. ive personally never heard of a master cylinder failing. My octavia vRS was logged over a period of about 6 hours, and they had my fabia vRS for 2 weeks doing development getting it how i wanted as well so they would have both had that treatment, maybe more, who knows, and my brakes were 100% fine after for both of them. Initially thought it could be the extra power of the car, but thinking about it, it wont make difference either, as the 4th gear ratio in the GTI /ED30 is the same as the vRS, so terminal speed in 4th would be the same when the brakes are applied, its just you would hit that terminal speed faster.
On the plus side you wouldnt have R32 brakes if this hadnt happened :grin: :grin:
Think their new dyno is in the process of being installed now, so maybe no more heavy road logging, just a few tweaking runs on the road after.
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:laugh: