MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: Jussa on June 07, 2011, 02:29:58 pm
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Had my twintercooler fitted yesterday and was wondering if anybody with the same experience could advise?
My car is stage 2+ and at the last rolling road prior to the intercooler fitting was running at 278bhp and 320 lbs/ft torque.
Yesterday I had a full service and cambelt/waterpump change with the intercooler fitting.
The 1st rolling road after fitting was 280bhp and 308 lbs/ft torque, the 2nd was 281bhp and 313 lbs/ft torque and the 3rd 281bhp with 214 lbs/ft torque. :confused:
I have never used anything other than V-power, so different fuel is not in the equation.
The bhp wasn't concerning me, but obviously the torque was. They did say it will take a few tanks of petrol for the ECU to adjust, is this true or do I need them to look at another map?
Forgot to mention that I also changed from resonat to non-resonated, but surely that wouldn't have caused the torque drop? :scared:
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Were all of these runs on the same dyno? if so, what type of dyno?
so the three runs after fitting it made:
280bhp and 308 lbs/ft torque,
281bhp and 313 lbs/ft torque
281bhp with 214 lbs/ft
so it lost 100 ft/lbs on the last run, or was this a typo?
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:signLOL: yes sorry typo.
314 is correct, all on the same dyno, so did keep improving.
It was on AMD Technik's dyno, not sure what type they have, but all the tests mentioned including the test prior to yesterday was on there. Granted the original test of 320 lbs/ft was in the winter :sad1:
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christ AMds rollers are giving sensible figures for once. Someone get the flags out :grin:
With the IC id imagine you could run some more timing which would gain you some torque. lAlso theweather 'could' make a difference
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Mines stage2 , standard ic, running 285 bhp - 311 lbs/ft torque also on amd rollers, stage2+ should give around 15% gain
Something doesn't sound right, who did the mapping? Best person to speak to is Shaun, my mates ed30 needed setting up , got Shaun to check settings , he found an extra 40bhp!
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Sorry, forgot to mention after my remap they said the same thing about a couple of tanks of fuel, mine definitely feels better after covering a few hundred miles, I'd go back and ask them to double check everything
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Thanks mate, will have a check in a few 100 miles.
I'll also ask for Shaun......will let you know how I get on. :happy2:
When you say stage 2, what do I have that u don't :signLOL:
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Adding the cooler wont add any power, the cooler will allow you to run higher boost and timing settings so im sure you will see a gain once set up accordingly. The cooler will help you make more power for longer.
A difference of 6 ft/lb is only about 2%, this can be down to something as simple as tyre pressures/change of tyre type etc...
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Hi jussa, you said your car is stage2+, mine is stage2 so I shouldn't have anything that you don't
My mods are- neuspeed p flow intake
Blueflame down pipe with sports cat
Milltek non res catback
Amd stage 2 map
To make mine stage2 + involves the fitting of a high pressure fuel pump and mapping to suit, so if your stage2+ you should definitely have more power than mine, also agree that ic won't give any extra power but should ensure that the power you do have isn't lost through heat soak, can you list your mods?
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Yes, but now I'm concerned that I have less bhp than JK911 who is only stage 2 :scared:
Surely that isn't normal? :sad1:
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JK, just PM'd u.
Really worrying that mine has the HPFP and all your mods albeit Milltek not blue flame and still my BHP is lower than yours??? :confused:
Is your map AMD?
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Pmd you back mate, give us a ring
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i wouldnt worry about him having more power than you. Many people run at stage 2 on AMDs rollers and get 280hp, then when they go on other rollers wander where their 20hp has gone missing from.
people say the best value for money is a remap. i disagree, i find that £70 run on AMDs rollers will gain you a good 20hp over stock normally :grin: this is why i commented earlier that your figures looked abit to normal for their rollers.
@ JK911 im pretty certain you dont have 285hp mate, no chance. Robert on here thought he did as well with the AMD stage 2, yet when he came to the RR day @ JKM he made what people predicted he had which was about 250hp, which just so happened to be around 5-10hp less than the revo guys did. the power and torque curves were very smooth and with an intake hed have easily hit the 260hp region which would be correct for stage 2. But 280hp he most certainly wasnt making and id bet neither are you
I thin AMD do it for marketing purposes. Shame you cant see if its riding up the rollers etc, or why they always run in 5th gear
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffreesmileyface.net%2Fsmiley%2Ffood%2Feating-popcorn-04.gif&hash=1791a0121d67f746f5ed846b432c301df92b929b)
Edit
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that probably isnt enough popcorn for this post lol so heres some more
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lotustalk.com%2Fforums%2Fattachments%2Ff68%2F90005d1220492322-costco-needs-bring-back-big-bags-popcorn-popcorn_10000.jpg&hash=5bf6be5bd0393c8fa77242885f3f4c6ccef1d907)
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Ditto the above. You only need to look at other RR results to show what can be achived without the fuel pump
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Guys, that's all very well, but it doesn't make sense that JK was on the same rollers as me just 4 weeks ago without an intercooler or HPFP and his torque is about the same as mine and he has an extra 5bhp :confused: :confused: :confused:
I'm really concerned now :sick:
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where abouts are you located? if your near AMD why not try Sanspeeds Dyno dynamics rolling road they are here http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/place?hl=en&xhr=t&cp=0&nord=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&biw=1280&bih=923&ion=1&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=sanspeed&fb=1&gl=uk&hq=sanspeed&cid=5852481923434669569 (http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/place?hl=en&xhr=t&cp=0&nord=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&biw=1280&bih=923&ion=1&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=sanspeed&fb=1&gl=uk&hq=sanspeed&cid=5852481923434669569) only 12 miles from AMD.
Its cheaper for a start and stock cars make stock figures on there. plus being dyno dynamics you know that its not going to give away free Hp in doggy bags so you will have a good idea what its putting out and plenty of stage 2+ graphs from DD rollers to compare against
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Guys, that's all very well, but it doesn't make sense that JK was on the same rollers as me just 4 weeks ago without an intercooler or HPFP and his torque is about the same as mine and he has an extra 5bhp :confused: :confused: :confused:
I'm really concerned now :sick:
Rollers were used on a different day and the Key thing is his has an AMD map being ran on AMDEssex's rollers. Amd cars ALWAYS run really well at AMD.
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Janner, that's the major issue!!!
Mine is an AMD map as well, AMD have done every mod from the beginning for me, that's why doesn't make sense to me :confused:
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By the way that Sanspeed is a lot closer to me than AMD anyway.
What do they charge for a RR? :happy2:
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Guys, that's all very well, but it doesn't make sense that JK was on the same rollers as me just 4 weeks ago without an intercooler or HPFP and his torque is about the same as mine and he has an extra 5bhp :confused: :confused: :confused:
I'm really concerned now :sick:
Its all in the mapping, now that you have the cooler you should be able to make much better figures. Also its worth noting that different cars make different figures, look at stg2+ on K04 cars where some make 355ish bhp and others make 370+ with the same software and similar mods.
I would reccomend speaking with your tuner and taking it from there, I wouldnt go shopping around for different dyno results based on other peoples opinion of 'this dyno over/under reads' as you could go on a dynodynamics dyno and 'lose' 15bhp or a Dastek dyno and 'gain' 40bhp which will confuse matters even more :signLOL:
Power figures are one thing a dyno outputs, but the true reason for tuners using a dyno is to develop software and upgrades and to assist in measuring various parameters under load in a safe and controlled manor i.e datalogging and steady state tuning.
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Wasn't saying amd rollers are 100% ,was just trying to offer a comparison to jussa as we have the same map on the same rollers, were not measuring cocks was just trying to help find an explanation, it's not like my dad owns amd or anything like that, doesn't matter what rollers we run on something is obviously not right!
Ps let me know how you get on justin :P
Ps don't go to sanspeed, I know people that have had problems with them in the past, also if you had the work done at amd I would give them a chance to sort out the problem first, if you go to another tuner then take your findings back to amd I doubt they will entertain an issues you have!
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Janner, that's the major issue!!!
Mine is an AMD map as well, AMD have done every mod from the beginning for me, that's why doesn't make sense to me :confused:
Ah my mistake. THought you said revo stage 2+ :ashamed: Either way id still try another set of rollers just for confirmation that its either OK or something is wrong. sanspeed were about £55 for a dyno run last time i used them,
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Wasn't saying amd rollers are 100% ,was just trying to offer a comparison to jussa as we have the same map on the same rollers, were not measuring cocks was just trying to help find an explanation, it's not like my dad owns amd or anything like that, doesn't matter what rollers we run on something is obviously not right!
what im trying to get at is the consistency of the rollers. Cars of equal tune make such varied figures there. Christ earlier on this year guys with stage 2 and 2+ S3's were nearly making 350HP, yet other days they make 340hp on there.
the mnain reason i say Dyno dynamics rollers is they are consistent with each other
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Janner, we understand that mate, but what doesn't make sense is stage2+ should make better power/torque than stage2 no matter what rollers or what wether, so trying another rolling road is not going to be much use as it offers no comparison!
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but they werent done on the same day so its not a direct comparison as AMDs rollers give such varied results.
For instance 280Hp and 320lbft is bang on for a stage 2+ car. the lower torque that he has could be down to weather, or tyre pressures etc just as PDT says. Yours might be reading very high, and his reading accurately, if he went on some DD rollers and made comparable figures to everyone else at stage 2+ using the same dyno dynamics then he is OK, otherwise he could end up throwing cash at a non existent problem.
If he went on the other rollers and made lower figures then he'll know its an issue with the car
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Post both the graphs, this would ge a good starting point.
Different cars on different days cant be compared that accurately, even when the dyno uses a weather station for compensations there are various other factors that come into play, a different tyre can cause more drag, as can different tyre pressures. Lets say that car A has a tyre that has a 5% bigger surface area than car B. This causes a guestimated 5% more drag under load (the more power that is put through a tyre, the higher the resistance or drag as it deforms more)
So lets add 5% to the figure of 280bhp = an extra 14bhp at the wheels, approx 17hp at the flywheel. :confused:
I switched from 235/18 tyres to 255/18 tyres on the back of my BMW and lost 13hp, but in reality I didnt I just added resistance, so I added 10psi to stop the tyre deforming and my 13hp returned.
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Just for arguments sake, if jussa wants to pay for a power run for both cars I'm more than willing to go to amd with him tomorrow, I know the guys there quite well, (I was actually there today having cam belt /water pump and full service), this should give some indication of how rollers are performing, the point I was trying to make is he should take it back to them and let them see if there's a problem first, regardless of power if he's not happy it needs sorting, although I understand that similar cars with similar mods can give different readings ,are we all in agreement that stage2+ should give better results/figures than stage 2??????????,if so there has to be a problem, as I said jussa I'm more than happy to meet you at amd tomorrow if it helps mate.
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I woould love to meet up tomorrow mate, but I'd be getting a divorce :signLOL:
I was there on Monday from 8am till 7pm and got loads grief from the missus.
I'll have a chat tomorrow with Shaun and see what he says.......maybe if you can we can meet up at AMD next week, even if it means me paying for both our RR's
If you've sent me your RR graph, I'll post both of them tomorrow late morning for PDT and Janner to have a gander at :confused:
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No worries, would have to be later part of next week as I'm off to Monaco for a long weekend on Thursday, have emailed my rr, hope you get on ok. :happy2:
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I'll post up both graphs tomorrow.
Have a good time in Monaco, will catch up with you aout AMD when u get back. :happy2:
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This is JK's RR at stage 2 with an AMD map
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fh473%2Fjussa1%2FJK.jpg&hash=ad5e37929980577e511b84a18fed724a050c23c2)
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And this is mine at Stage 2+
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fh473%2Fjussa1%2FAMD_stage2.jpg&hash=c42d150c844d04ed00827b8c7359f496d6344f2b)
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Awaiting PDT and Janner feedback :fighting:
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:popcornsoda:
Interesting reading considering JK has no HPFP or intercooler and I do......same map, same rollers :confused:
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Awaiting PDT and Janner feedback >>>:fighting:<<<
Am i misinterpreting that !!!
:popcornsoda:
Interesting reading considering JK has no HPFP or intercooler and I do......same map, same rollers :confused:
the curve looks really good in all honesty, I dont think you can compare the two graphs either as AMDs rollers give really inconsistent results out all the time. as said earlier, yours could be 100% fine and giving realistic figures, and JK911 judging by his before and after plots is over reading by 15Hp so me personally id say he only has 267hp which in itself is still very good for a stage 2 K03.
The biggest tell tale for faults is to get it logged with VCDS
Personally I still think you should try another set of rollers and if the car makes the same figures as you have now, or comparable to other dyno dynamics rollers then you'll know its OK. I just thin you could end up going down a rabbit hole looking for issues that might not actually be present
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Janner,
Are you saying that a stage 2+ should only be 280bhp and 320lbs/ft torque? :surprised:
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yes, and Im sure theres half a forum of guys on here who will back that up. The only way you will make more is by going to generous rollers.
Heres what stage 2+ cars make on rolling roads in which stock cars make stock figures. FWIW robert on here with his stage 2 thought he had 280hp+ but when using JKMs rollers found he was slightly behind the revo guys
Revo Stage 2+
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jkm.org.uk%2Fperformance%2FMisc%2FMisc_Performance_pictures%2FTFSI-images%2F2010update%2Fnew%2520TFSI%2520Graphs%2FK03STG2.gif&hash=1b11ec4f6027d809dc0372311b6dabc8d836915f)
Revo stage 2+
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jkm.org.uk%2Fperformance%2FMisc%2FGallery%2Frollingroaddays%2FBRISKODA%252020%252002%252010%2FDyno%2520Graphs%2FBLU.gif&hash=8a4e060017c0a0c53edcc5902e7327931fed43df)
Shark performance stage 2+
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbriskoda.net%2Fforums%2Findex.php%3Fapp%3Dcore%26amp%3Bmodule%3Dattach%26amp%3Bsection%3Dattach%26amp%3Battach_rel_module%3Dpost%26amp%3Battach_id%3D22681&hash=4f94adbaf09da48245de458aa063f89b18dee2fb)
Shark Performance Stage 2+
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbriskoda.net%2Fforums%2Findex.php%3Fapp%3Dcore%26amp%3Bmodule%3Dattach%26amp%3Bsection%3Dattach%26amp%3Battach_rel_module%3Dpost%26amp%3Battach_id%3D21249&hash=c351de6b73ff6d72d7d5251a40bb215286f8358a)
DNA Stage 3
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fgg24%2Fmartziniuk%2FImage.jpg&hash=5958b1983d2b3170d781f4ca36df7268993e5928)
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Janner, I may be ignorant asking this question, but does the Octavia have the same lump as the MK5 GTi? :ashamed:
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yes the A3 2.0T, leon Fr, Octavia vRS, Golf GTI (200ps) all have the K03 2.0TFSI with identical part numbers etc.
the S3, Cupra and Ed30 all have the k04 TFSI
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Sorry to hear you are not happy. Was nice to meet you up there and your car looked good and sounded nice. Hope you wheren't waiting much longer?
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Hi mate, nice meeting you as well :smiley:
How did your mate get on with his remap, I bet he loved it :happy2:
Just spoke to Shaun at AMD. I've booked the car in for the day on Tuesday next week for them to have a look at and possibly tweak a few things.
He says the intercooler is just a bolt on and doesn't necessarily need a remap, but the map can definitely be tweaked to make it work better (due to more air being pushed through), so hopefully they'll sort it. :scared:
I just hope that it gets resolved, so I'll post up on this thread again when I receive it back. :sad1:
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id be surprised if thats totally true, unless the setting were too high to start with. With the added cooling on most cars that go stage 2 with a cooler the timing can be adjusted. for example. I fitted a THS fmic yesterday and took it to my revo garage today and they set the car up from timing 5 to 7 thus giving more torque and higher end power. This was all adjusted in the car checking all the knock sensors are within tolerences. They can also be a bit more generous with the settings with a cooler as a lower intake temp can be achieved through hot and cold days.
Hope it all goes well when you take it in and you achieve what you desire. Im full stage 2+ and have the jkm rolling road day coming up. cant wait :party:
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He says the intercooler is just a bolt on and doesn't necessarily need a remap, but the map can definitely be tweaked to make it work better (due to more air being pushed through), so hopefully they'll sort it. :scared:
An uprated IC on it's own will not lead to " more air being pushed through"... :confused:
It's the turbo that will determine that.
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:signLOL: Maybe I misinterpreted what he was saying. :ashamed:
I guess the bottom line is that he said it can be tweaked to accomodate the intercooler for better performance. :driver: Either way I'd like to see some difference if the readings above are anything to go by :fighting:
Maybe I'll join you at JKM just to see what the readings are on another RR.
JK911, you care to join us for the morning :happy2:
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When and where? I'd also like to see results for mine on another set of rollers, so if I'm not at work when you go then I would be up for that for sure, let me know! :happy2:
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RR day @ JKm on the 18th guys, get your names down :party:
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Cool, I'll put my name down now......interesting to see what those rollers will say after my AMD session on Tuesday 14th :party: