MK5 Golf GTI

General => Random Chat => Topic started by: no golf clubs at all on August 01, 2011, 01:43:18 pm

Title: Top Gear - EV or not EV that is the question
Post by: no golf clubs at all on August 01, 2011, 01:43:18 pm: Right, let me say I am quite a fan of Top Gear, I like the blokeishness of the whole thing and find them all quite funny, if a little annoying sometimes (train thingy last week for example), however I have to say that the whole Electric car piece left me a bit bemused.

I would actually like an electric vehicle at some point in my car owning life, but not for driving far to the coast and expecting to plug it in without any forward planning, no what I would like to use this kind of car for is for my daily 14 mile round trip commute and at that point in the week when it needed charged up, plug it in to my own power socket in the driveway overnight.

Last nights piece was clearly an attempt to show how ridiculous these cars will be in the "real world" but for me there was no attempt to actually explore the strengths of such a car in my commute type of scenario. Rather, the TG coverage looked for weaknesses and exploited them to the point where the use of such cars was presented as totally ridiculous.

For me personally however the car is WAY too expensive (£25k!!! :sick: ) wtf and more, the batteries only last a few years (if treated properly and at the moment they are talking about £5-7k to replace! :stupid: ) that just about scraps the car at the end of a 3 year period.

Until someone comes in with a plug in plug out battery system, where you go to a pit stop and swap the battery for a charged one then YES they just do not make much sense for the kind of journeys that Messers Clarkson and May took on last nights show but surely for a daily short commute this kind of thing may well be the wave of the future....

of course keeping a fast petrol 2 seater, or GTI for weekend blasts.

So whilst not a dig at Top Gear, I do think they could have made more of an attempt to show under what conditions the car could be used usefully and without the ridiculous cartoon capers that we all enjoyed last night....

I am not a sandal wearing hippy btw :signLOL: Just wanted it off my chest :happy2:
Title: Re: Top Gear - EV or not EV that is the question
Post by: DaveB@Vagbremtechnic on August 01, 2011, 02:50:44 pm: I was seriously considering a Lancia Stratos Kit Car prior to the kids coming along, they borrowed one of the cars from the Stratos Forum, it was a high profile car which had been put away for winter.

Anyway to cut a long story short, listening to the owner..... the Stig Loved it, they couldn't get Hammond out of it they went through one and a half sets of very expensive classic Pirelli's (345/35/15's same as a lambo Countach) they then slated it on screen as a unreliable typical lancia and kept making staged filmings of it being spun out and focused for at least a minute out of the 5 minute piece about a broken brake caliper.....

Top gear - great to watch but a bunch of tw@ts to lend cars to apparently
Title: Re: Top Gear - EV or not EV that is the question
Post by: BeezerDiesel on August 01, 2011, 03:21:31 pm: The only thing that gets me with electric cars (aside from the fact that most of them are dull as hell) is where does the energy come from?

Answer: Power stations. So you're just passing on the pollution from one place to another.
Title: Re: Top Gear - EV or not EV that is the question
Post by: Weston on August 01, 2011, 03:35:14 pm: Quote from: BeezerDiesel on August 01, 2011, 03:21:31 pm
The only thing that gets me with electric cars (aside from the fact that most of them are dull as hell) is where does the energy come from?

Answer: Power stations. So you're just passing on the pollution from one place to another.

My thoughts exactly. Add to that the carbon footprint of manufacturing these cars & you might as well drive whatever you want.
Title: Re: Top Gear - EV or not EV that is the question
Post by: Saint Steve on August 01, 2011, 03:55:38 pm: Hydrogen cars are the future!! Electric cars are totally pointless and hugely expensive especially to maintain.

Makes a DSG car choice look pennies in maintenance costs :grin:
Title: Re: Top Gear - EV or not EV that is the question
Post by: andrewparker on August 01, 2011, 04:14:42 pm: The thing is, both cars (the Leaf in particular) are being sold and marketed as real world alternatives to petrol and diesel powered cars. On that premise you can hardly be critical when they are reviewed as just that. If they were being sold as an ideal car for a quick trip to the shops then I'd agree with you. I actually thought it was one of their more sensible pieces.
Title: Re: Top Gear - EV or not EV that is the question
Post by: cmdrfire on August 01, 2011, 04:34:07 pm: 1) That piece was wholly and totally wrong. I saw that and thought to myself, "My God, electric cars in the UK are finished".
2) Yes, a pure EV has a limited range. If you're doing more than 80miles a day, don't get one. End of story.
3) I use one for work (as do a few others now). Drive to work - drive home. 35 miles total commute. Charge overnight at home. Costs about 70p to recharge. Full recharge, overnight, in about 6 hours. I can also go from home or work to London and back on a single charge, that's about twice the distance, but often take advantage of a charge point in London to "opportunity charge" - just topping up the battery.
4) The battery is hellish expensive, yes. The battery can last ten years though. In the US, GM is offering an 8-year guarantee on its battery. Fast-charge is just a bad idea IMO as it is fast-charge that does (some) of the damage. Don't use the vehicle with fast-charge if you can avoid it. Do your commute or trips to the shops or school run or whatever. Then charge at home. If anyone wants to argue with me on batteries, go for it. You'll get bored before I finish :laugh:

Quote from: Saint Steve on August 01, 2011, 03:55:38 pm
Hydrogen cars are the future!! Electric cars are totally pointless and hugely expensive especially to maintain.

Makes a DSG car choice look pennies in maintenance costs :signLOL:p

Know what you're talking about, please - hydrogen cars are electric cars*. The hydrogen fuel cell is acting as a range extender. Some ultracapacitors or lithium-ion batteries sit in the way of the fuel cell and the motor controller to provide load-balancing capability. There's also a big problem with hydrogen generation and storage. It takes energy to produce the hydrogen, compress it, and then pipe or transport it to a pump so you can "refuel". Yes, you do need to refuel, even with a fuel cell vehicle. Yes, there is a fuel tank - a hydrogen cylinder. Don't think it's magic, because it's not.

Electric cars - maintenance? what maintenance? In any well-designed EV the battery will outlast the lifetime of the vehicle (this means 8-10 years these days), and apart from brakes and fluids and wipers there are no other maintenance items. The electric motor and electronics, again, will outlast the lifetime of the vehicle. There is nothing else to maintain. How is this more expensive than a DSG?

*I refer, of course, to hydrogen fuel cell cars and not hydrogen-fired reciprocating ICE, which is grossly inefficient.
Title: Re: Top Gear - EV or not EV that is the question
Post by: Saint Steve on August 01, 2011, 05:20:53 pm: Neo, cars are not just for work, they are normally social, domestic and pleasure, which leaves you bugger Charge all for anything else :signLOL:

The DSG link was purely as an example as in possible mainternance costs , replacing its batterys after 5years+ or so at a cost of £8000 is a rather large pill to factor into buying one of these cars.

Totally waste of money..

Wait for water for future development :smiley:

Im sure theres more future in that then these Electric options.

My current take is buy a economical Petrol and run that if ecomany is an issue. Something like a hyundia i30 Blue that is golf sized and will do 70+mpg.
Title: Re: Top Gear - EV or not EV that is the question
Post by: Sunglasses Ron on August 01, 2011, 05:22:44 pm: Think I saw you on your way to work the other day Neo.......

(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg62.imageshack.us%2Fimg62%2F5244%2Fwhizzcar468x360.jpg&hash=361b0b6351c8e1caa8e7f24f2d232aba51f40027) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/62/whizzcar468x360.jpg/)

:P
Title: Re: Top Gear - EV or not EV that is the question
Post by: Saint Steve on August 01, 2011, 05:33:16 pm: ^^ :signLOL:
Title: Re: Top Gear - EV or not EV that is the question
Post by: mattyw on August 01, 2011, 05:35:06 pm: I didn't expect any more from clarkson but thought may would have given a fair review of the EV,they deliberately showed them in there worst light,I don't have much interest in EV but actually thought the Nissan wasn't to bad inside
Title: Re: Top Gear - EV or not EV that is the question
Post by: cmdrfire on August 01, 2011, 06:07:16 pm: Quote from: Saint Steve on August 01, 2011, 05:20:53 pm
Neo, cars are not just for work, they are normally social, domestic and pleasure, which leaves you bugger Charge all for anything else :signLOL:

The DSG link was purely as an example as in possible mainternance costs , replacing its batterys after 5years+ or so at a cost of £8000 is a rather large pill to factor into buying one of these cars.

Totally waste of money..

Wait for water for future development :smiley:

Im sure theres more future in that then these Electric options.

My current take is buy a economical Petrol and run that if ecomany is an issue. Something like a hyundia i30 Blue that is golf sized and will do 70+mpg.

Social and domestic - there's your EV needs sorted. For pleasure (and you can drive an EV with pleasure - the one I'm using has more torque than a factory GTI) you can use the savings to buy a weekend (petrol) car.
And like I said, under normal use circumstances there is no need to replace the battery, in most instances it will last upwards of 10 years and still retain 80% of its capacity. Remember we talk about useful life here. So that's a null argument.

@Sunglasses Ron, clearly you need to take your sunglasses off. This is (one) of the cars we've developed at work (in association with Ital Design Giugiaro)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3456%2F3698382901_0cb1ec7436_b.jpg&hash=20f352105db1ba40b186a17477c04ba845c53111)

0-100kph in about 4 seconds and a maximum speed of 300kph. Four wheel drive with active electronic differential. Drive it gently it will return real-world 90mpg with 100km EV-only range. Bit quicker than a Golf.
Title: Re: Top Gear - EV or not EV that is the question
Post by: rich83 on August 01, 2011, 06:13:42 pm: More fuel efficient and cleaner diesels are the way if you want outright economy with out limited range. Polo bluemotion with do silly MPG if you blow gently on the accelerator. :happy2:
Title: Re: Top Gear - EV or not EV that is the question
Post by: ub7rm on August 01, 2011, 06:14:12 pm: Hydrogen isn't the way forward either. Hydrogen being such a small atom happily migrates its way through most plastics (think helium baloon going flat in a couple of days) and indeed most metals making them extremely brittle in the process. Not to mention the cost of producing, transporting and storing the stuff.

I guess its all really early days for this kind of technology and a viable alternative to hydrocabon fuels will be found but its still a long way off IMO.
Title: Re: Top Gear - EV or not EV that is the question
Post by: cmdrfire on August 01, 2011, 06:21:46 pm: Quote from: richwig83 on August 01, 2011, 06:13:42 pm
More fuel efficient and cleaner diesels are the way if you want outright economy with out limited range. Polo bluemotion with do silly MPG if you blow gently on the accelerator. :happy2:

Absolutely correct (for now) Rich :happy2:

Quote from: ub7rm on August 01, 2011, 06:14:12 pm
Hydrogen isn't the way forward either. Hydrogen being such a small atom happily migrates its way through most plastics (think helium baloon going flat in a couple of days) and indeed most metals making them extremely brittle in the process. Not to mention the cost of producing, transporting and storing the stuff.

I guess its all really early days for this kind of technology and a viable alternative to hydrocabon fuels will be found but its still a long way off IMO.

Nice to see two sensible posts in a row :smiley: Moving away from hydrocarbons is very difficult because we're used to their extremely high energy density, which has let us get away with absolutely lousy conversion efficiencies for the past 100 years. Point is, we can't do that any longer, because climate change or otherwise, the oil will run out (or extraction will become sufficiently economically unviable) at some point. As soon as we start looking at any metal-based energy storage system energy density falls off by several orders of magnitude - it's just the way the physics is. Fuel cells or other steady-state reactors are also not ideal as they are horrendously complex and require signifcant control loops. We could probably do quite a neat solution these days with nuclear heating options (they knew how to package it back in the 70s small enough for spacecraft) but there are major safety concerns. So not really sure what we'll see in the long term, but in the medium term (~25yrs or so) we'll see a mix of higher efficiency diesel and gasoline engines with li-ion based batteries of varying capacities in various modes (series hybrid, ev, etc).
Title: Re: Top Gear - EV or not EV that is the question
Post by: rich83 on August 01, 2011, 06:25:31 pm: Neo... so whats on the horizon for batteries? Is it possible to make a reasonably sized battery that does cost/weight a ton, that will enable a car to do 400-500 miles?
Title: Re: Top Gear - EV or not EV that is the question
Post by: cmdrfire on August 01, 2011, 06:47:42 pm: Quote from: richwig83 on August 01, 2011, 06:25:31 pm
Neo... so whats on the horizon for batteries? Is it possible to make a reasonably sized battery that does cost/weight a ton, that will enable a car to do 400-500 miles?

It's a complex question, and it largely depends what you mean by reasonably sized - but, to put it very bluntly, in the next ten years, with the physics we know, probably not.

Let me clarify - battery technology (referring to the electrochemical and the electromechanical aspects) will improve by some percentage each year, but it is not a large percentage. What this means is, in 5-10 years:

1. You can pay the same amount for a battery pack of the same mass and get double the range of the EVs on sale today.
2. You can pay half the amount for a battery pack of hall the mass and get the same range of the EVs on sale today.

There will be other savings associated with economies of scale and organisation of infrastructure and so on, so in real terms the battery pack will end up costing less, no matter what. In any case, amongst most of the car companies pursuing an EV option, option 2. is preferred as it better suits the use case for an EV and helps drive down cost, and so on. It also improves the dynamics and efficiency of a vehicle (less heavy battery pack results in less mass to lug around, hence an improvement in efficiency).

The problem with a metal-based battery is that, as I mentioned, its energy density compared to gasoline is poor, and there's simply no way around that (hell, wood has a greater potential energy than metal, but the conversion effiency - how efficiently you can convert the chemical energy stored within to kinetic energy - is so poor rendering such an exercise pointless). So an EV for very-long ranges just doesn't make sense, especially as you take energy out of the battery pack, you still have the same mass to lug around, resulting in an overall decrease in vehicle efficiency.

For longer-range vehicles at the moment gasoline-electric is the way to go, be it parallel hybrid (a Prius - a normal car with a small gasoline engine with electric "assist") or a series hybrid* (petrol engine used as a generator to recharge the battery pack - vehicle is electric drive only - what my company works on).

It is interesting to note, that our favourite car company (Volkswagen), recently announced what I believe is probably the most sensible policy of any auto company - that they will not be pursuing EVs, but instead will offer a plug-in hybrid of one kind or another (that is, a parallel or series hybrid which can have the battery pack recharged from the mains for limited electric-only drive) for every single model in its line up.

*Also worth noting that the term "series hybrid" technically encompasses hydrogen fuel cell cars. Problem is between the likes of Clarkson and the PR firms of all of these auto companies it's a bit of a nonsense trying to work out what is what, with terms like "fuel cell vehicle - FCV" and "Range extended EV - REEV" and toyota's abysmal "Full hybrid" (?!) all essentially meaningless.
Title: Re: Top Gear - EV or not EV that is the question
Post by: rich83 on August 01, 2011, 06:51:57 pm: I suppose by reasonable i just meant... small enough to fit in a car without impeding its size and space inside the cabin.

Interesting read neo, thanks :happy2:
Title: Re: Top Gear - EV or not EV that is the question
Post by: Tfsi_Mike on August 01, 2011, 10:17:32 pm: Quote from: Sunglasses Ron on August 01, 2011, 05:22:44 pm
Think I saw you on your way to work the other day Neo.......

(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg62.imageshack.us%2Fimg62%2F5244%2Fwhizzcar468x360.jpg&hash=361b0b6351c8e1caa8e7f24f2d232aba51f40027) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/62/whizzcar468x360.jpg/)

:P

Germany is full of those heaps of sh*t :fighting:
Title: Re: Top Gear - EV or not EV that is the question
Post by: Top Cat on August 02, 2011, 04:06:08 pm: Is it to much to ask for a battery that lasts more than a day in my crap Blackberry without needing charging. :sad1:
Title: Re: Top Gear - EV or not EV that is the question
Post by: rich83 on August 02, 2011, 04:08:09 pm: Quote from: Top Cat on August 02, 2011, 04:06:08 pm
Is it to much to ask for a battery that lasts more than a day in my crap Blackberry without needing charging. :sad1:

... or iPhone for that matter. :surprised:
Title: Re: Top Gear - EV or not EV that is the question
Post by: vRS Carl on August 02, 2011, 04:20:10 pm: Your all looking at this from the wrong angle, as are all the car manufacturers.

Robin Williams had the answer back in 1997....

:pomppomp: :pomppomp: FLUBBER :pomppomp: :pomppomp:
Title: Re: Top Gear - EV or not EV that is the question
Post by: Thecrawf on August 02, 2011, 04:23:45 pm: Tbh I remember there was a programme on H cars a couple of years back using a solid block of inert hydrogen and all you fill the tank up with is water, water simply drips on to the fuel cell releasing hydrogen gas (don't ask what happens next )fuel cell costs half the cost for new batteries too and should last 10-20 years

But just water in the tank maybe Knight industries were ahead of there time

The current hydrogen furling system is another way of the govenment to tax us on fuel

The cracking proccess of splitting hydrogen from h2o uses alot of power too so there is a false economy for the power usage cycle

Wait til helium 3 fusion power comes in lol

Anyone found any truthful posts on wiki lol
Title: Re: Top Gear - EV or not EV that is the question
Post by: heavyd on August 02, 2011, 09:50:33 pm: We've been told at work that the battery life of the leaf is expected to rise considerably in the next few years, giving more power, longer range etc, as the leafs are going to be built in this country in the next year or so.
I think its mercedes that have thrown a heap of cash into the battery plant up here thats being built, as I think there going to be powering Smart cars with them soon aswell
Title: Re: Top Gear - EV or not EV that is the question
Post by: Nodz on August 03, 2011, 10:51:26 am: Quote from: richwig83 on August 02, 2011, 04:08:09 pm
Quote from: Top Cat on August 02, 2011, 04:06:08 pm
Is it to much to ask for a battery that lasts more than a day in my crap Blackberry without needing charging. :sad1:

... or iPhone for that matter. :surprised:

I second that, bloody annoying as I don't even get a full day sometimes :fighting:
Title: Re: Top Gear - EV or not EV that is the question
Post by: vRS Carl on August 03, 2011, 02:01:16 pm: I can get a couple of days out of my iPhone 4 and that's with 20-30 calls a day, a fair amount of texts and emails and the odd browse on the interweb. I'm also on a beta software. I charge it up everyday but the lowest i've been at after a day is 57% unless i use the internet a lot.
Title: Re: Top Gear - EV or not EV that is the question
Post by: cmdrfire on August 03, 2011, 09:39:03 pm: Quote from: richwig83 on August 02, 2011, 04:08:09 pm
Quote from: Top Cat on August 02, 2011, 04:06:08 pm
Is it to much to ask for a battery that lasts more than a day in my crap Blackberry without needing charging. :sad1:

... or iPhone for that matter. :surprised:

How much are you willing to pay? The cobalt-anode technologies that are used in mobile phones and laptops have come a long long way forward but the stuff you get in phones/laptops is about six or seven years out of date by my assessment. The problem is the capex for a battery plant for consumer electronics runs into the hundreds of millions (we're talking millions of cells here) and a new electrochemistry or electromechanical structure doesn't necessarily lend itself to be manufactured in existing plant. When you couple that with loads of existing infrastructure to produce this stuff, there's not much incentive to make a better battery for consumer electronics. The 900-odd cycle lifespan of these older technologies is also good for the manufacturers because it means you buy a new phone or laptop every eighteen months to three years. Most of the gains in battery life in consumer electronics have been down to better electronic design and power management.

If I could put the stuff I'm working with right now in my phone it'd have charge for ages :laugh:
Title: Re: Top Gear - EV or not EV that is the question
Post by: rich83 on August 04, 2011, 03:24:05 pm: My MBP battery is on 678 cycles and it knackered! :signLOL:
Title: Re: Top Gear - EV or not EV that is the question
Post by: mattyw on August 06, 2011, 08:47:12 pm: Did anyone see Clarksons page in the sun today,Nissan are furious about top gears test of the EV,Nissan say that they set out with only a partially charged battery which sounds like the sort of thing top gear would do and then clarkson goes on to criticise the nissan car range
Title: Re: Top Gear - EV or not EV that is the question
Post by: Snoopy on August 06, 2011, 08:58:20 pm: Quote from: mattyw on August 06, 2011, 08:47:12 pm
Did anyone see Clarksons page in the sun today,Nissan are furious about top gears test of the EV,Nissan say that they set out with only a partially charged battery which sounds like the sort of thing top gear would do and then clarkson goes on to criticise the nissan car range
Did you read this also
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/georgemonbiot/2011/aug/05/top-gear-bbc