MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: Redev on September 15, 2011, 08:39:36 am
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Hi All,
I've got a stock DSG GTI and feel that the understeer in particular in the wet needs addressing quickly before the depths of winter are upon us. I'm using Michelin PS3's (which aren't the best wet weather tyres but they've got 6mm on them so they wont be going anywhere for now!) and they're correctly inflated.
My plan is to fit H&R Arbs front and rear in addition to a set of Eibach spings to lower it a tad (i'm not happy with the look of the ride height - i'm on stilts!).
Can anyone let me have their thoughts - positive or negative on the effects of changing the ARB's on wet weather handling?
The ARB's are a mini investment in themselves - i definately want to use the H&R ones as i know of a set going for reasonable price (one set only i'm afraid)
Thanks all in advance
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Can anyone let me have their thoughts - positive or negative on the effects of changing the ARB's on wet weather handling?
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FRED_INK%2FRR_GodisBusy.jpg&hash=7b2a96dcbc06450990e8ea8c60634c85ff4013d2)
ARB's will help handling regardless of roads being wet or dry. They aren't going to reduce understeer directly but will reduce body roll. They are just one component in suspension/handling mods but very good value. They also reduce nose dive under heavy braking. One of the first mods I did. Be warned of the slippery slope of modding!
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Thanks Robin.
I too have been wanting to get some ARB's for the GTI, but never got around to it, now that most of my cosmetic modding is done I may look into it.
Think my front one has been removed when I had airride fitted. But all the more reason to get a rear one put in.
Are they easy to fit?
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Stiffening the rear should help understeer bit, i know it has on mine.
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Stiffening the rear should help understeer bit, i know it has on mine.
....Yes, you're right - If you setup the rear ARB differently from the front but I understood the OP to be referring to wet weather handling in particular. I prefer understeer to oversteer.
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Are they easy to fit?
....Fitting can be a bit awkward/fiddly only because of other stuff in the way. Perfect time to fit would be when changing dampers or brakes etc.
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The rear one is easy to do. Wheels off and 6 bolts (you need a spline bit)
Front is a pain because you have to drop the subframe.
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I'm liking the sound of this - is there much mileage in getting the WALK kit done if the ARB's have been changed or Is that overkill? I don't do track days etc but do like a solid planted car as opposed to the nervous one I have at the moment...
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^
Also doing WALK isn't 'overkill' - Every little bit helps or contributes to improved handling. Good handling is a joy whether one does trackdays or not. You can drive fast but responsibly on the roads. The only downside is the cost of modding.
Probably the best mod of all is to first remap your brain: http://www.drivetrain.uk.com/ <-- You take some of those skills you learn with you whatever you are driving.
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In wet weather understeer is safe, whereas oversteer is very much not safe. As i have only fitted a rear arb and in may was on a trackday i learned that in the wet the best you can do is to remove one dogbone on the rear to get the max traction from the rear wheels in slippery condition. Trust me you do not want overstter in slippery condition. :smiley:
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ARB's will help handling regardless of roads being wet or dry. They aren't going to reduce understeer directly but will reduce body roll. They are just one component in suspension/handling mods but very good value. They also reduce nose dive under heavy braking. One of the first mods I did. Be warned of the slippery slope of modding!
Stiffer ARB's doesn't help in the wet, it does IMHO make it worse.
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ARB's will help handling regardless of roads being wet or dry. They aren't going to reduce understeer directly but will reduce body roll. They are just one component in suspension/handling mods but very good value. They also reduce nose dive under heavy braking. One of the first mods I did. Be warned of the slippery slope of modding!
Stiffer ARB's doesn't help in the wet, it does IMHO make it worse.
....Stiffer than what? Do you mean stiffer than OEM or stiffer rear ARB as posted by others above?
I haven't experimented with stiffer rear ARB than front or vica-versa - All I know is that a matched pair of aftermarket ARBs help.
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^
Also doing WALK isn't 'overkill' - Every little bit helps or contributes to improved handling. Good handling is a joy whether one does trackdays or not. You can drive fast but responsibly on the roads. The only downside is the cost of modding.
Probably the best mod of all is to first remap your brain: http://www.drivetrain.uk.com/ <-- You take some of those skills you learn with you whatever you are driving.
Has anyone been on a drivetrain course? Might be interested as want to ensure I can drive to the maximum of my abillity and be safe with it
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ARB's will help handling regardless of roads being wet or dry. They aren't going to reduce understeer directly but will reduce body roll. They are just one component in suspension/handling mods but very good value. They also reduce nose dive under heavy braking. One of the first mods I did. Be warned of the slippery slope of modding!
Stiffer ARB's doesn't help in the wet, it does IMHO make it worse.
I concur, I set my rear arb to stiff and front arb to soft and i find it fine in dry but twitchy in wet weather at speed ie motorway. This is because I am still on stock suspension (b12 going on on 1st oct) so in conclusion dont set your rear arb to stiff unless your other mods already compliment it
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Probably the best mod of all is to first remap your brain: http://www.drivetrain.uk.com/ <-- You take some of those skills you learn with you whatever you are driving.
Has anyone been on a drivetrain course? Might be interested as want to ensure I can drive to the maximum of my abillity and be safe with it
....I have and I think it's excellent. A whole day in your car with 'Big John' around the roads of Oxfordshire with plenty of short breaks and analysis/discussion. I practice most of it every single time I drive my car and much has become natural.
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Mind me asking how much such a course would be? :drinking:
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Mind me asking how much such a course would be? :drinking:
....Was about £250 when I did it about 5 years ago. Dunno what it costs now but I'd say it's worth it unless you already have Police or Services training. 'Big John' is a highly qualified instructor who has trained Police drivers.
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Thanks Robin.
Have done several services driving courses and will be doing ADAC course in the coming weeks but haven't done any such as evasive driving / master driver as it's not my trade.
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I found that a matched set of ARBs dont benifit over the standard in the wet, there is defintootly noticable reductions in grip.
Infact when i bought my ARBs VW racing informed me that they dont actually run them on their race cars !
I had eibach on mine and the reduced grip in the wet didnt bother me,in the dry when pushing on, it felt like you shaved 150Kg of the car and shortend the rack, so much more precice and direct its a brill MOD and worth doing IMO :happy2:
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I found that a matched set of ARBs dont benifit over the standard in the wet, there is defintootly noticable reductions in grip.
Infact when i bought my ARBs VW racing informed me that they dont actually run them on their race cars !
I had eibach on mine and the reduced grip in the wet didnt bother me,in the dry when pushing on, it felt like you shaved 150Kg of the car and shortend the rack, so much more precice and direct its a brill MOD and worth doing IMO :happy2:
....I've had the same Eibachs on mine for 5 years and VWR advised me when they were doing my suspension that I didn't need to change to theirs.
Unless you do back-to-back comparisons I don't see how people can be so convinced about grip reductions - There are so many other factors which influence grip/traction. I can't feel that having ARB's make any difference in the wet - You drive according to the conditions and if you're not experiencing problems then it all works just fine n dandy. Unless you are doing regular trackdays like SteveP I don't think you need to start fine tuning ARB's. They help the overall handling and so are a worthwhile enough mod for fast road use.
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On my other car (Golf is the daily), I have adjustable front and rear ARBs and use them to tune the balance of the car on track. Very crudely the end of the car you stiffen loosens (within limits). At times it can be reassuring to have the front push wide just ahead of rear, as understeer by its nature is "fail-safe" (increases cornering radius until equilibrium is established) and oversteer is the opposite. I generally soften the bars when it's wet.
Fitting ARBs should not affect weight transfer under straight line braking or acceleration.
I can't say I've played with the ARBs on the Golf, but I did find getting rid of the OEM console bushes made the front end more precise and less prone to (excess) understeer.
Some will disagree but on the road I prefer a hint of understeer, and since changing the console bushes I don't find the Golf too bad in this respect.
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Ok - i see the ARB debate going both ways...let me try another angle.
In order to increase grip/stability in the wet, what would you guys suggest??
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Drive slower and buy decent tyres :happy2:
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Drive slower and buy decent tyres :happy2:
:signLOL: I'll admit the Pilot Sport 3 isn't the best tyre! I'll be going back to Goodyear as soon as they wear...
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Drive slower and buy decent tyres :happy2:
:grin: :congrats: :congrats:
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Drive slower and buy decent tyres :happy2:
.... x 2 :happy2:
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In wet weather understeer is safe, whereas oversteer is very much not safe. As i have only fitted a rear arb and in may was on a trackday i learned that in the wet the best you can do is to remove one dogbone on the rear to get the max traction from the rear wheels in slippery condition. Trust me you do not want overstter in slippery condition. :smiley:
this is soo true, i would much rather have understeer than oversteer, who has the b*lls to snap the steering wheel for a bit of opposite lock on twisty b roads, not I!
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i find the ps3s pretty good in the wet tbh much better than conti sc2 and dunlop sport max
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Robin - when i was looking in to arbs i researched a few types and it came back that the eibachs seem to be pretty neutral - thats why i went for them, at the end of the day i dont think there is much of a differance between any of the aftermarket ARBs unless you are going for the thickest of the two h&r bars
so thats probably why VWR suggested you not to change as the eibachs are just as good.
Im with you though they are great for fast road and track, aswell as sharpening the car up no end !
I had a play about with the settings on them too, its good to get the car to behave how you want, it was set to medium on the rear which felt pretty good but i didnt like the fact you used opposite holes to get that adjustment ( it looked weird kind of like the arb was kinked ! ) so i then put it soft on the rear ! Which i thought made the rear sqirm a bit under braking!
My plan is to get them back on after winter and try hard on the rear to see what thats like !
There was deffo a reduction in wet grip though and it was compared back to back with oem as i dropped my car off standard and picked it up with the eibachs, like you said though its no grate shakes you just adjust your speed to suit, thats maybe why vwr dont use them, there cars are stiff enough with race coilies and would maybe have some grip issues in the wet??