MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: duncan on March 31, 2009, 07:22:32 pm
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well its been a long day and the saga continues....(start of my problems - http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3310.0)
so too the car to tuningwerkes in croydon who were fantastic!! had booked the car in to get the DV changed and the front PCV swapped.
firstly we went for a test drive before the work began, Reuben who was looking after me took the car for a spin and did say that it was lacking in power, we drove for about 15/20mins,
the car then had the parts replaced, he took the car out again, then i took the car out and we both noticed a difference in performance, was more responsive, not by a crazy amount but then it was only slightly down on power so to be expected.
then he put the trial APR map on the car - i was knocked out - the car was rapid to say the least!! so much more response and pace through the gears. i decided i would use the trial map for a bit and come back to him in a week or so to get the full one put on.
on my way home i thought it would be interesting to see what the car is putting out now, just really to put my worrying to bed, once i could see the read out of what it should be producing that will 100% put my mind at rest.
here is where things get sh*t....
i took it down there, put it on the rollers and the car is only putting out 217bhp / 255lb/ft, speaking to reuben the lowest figures he has seen for an APR trial map is 245bhp / 289lb/ft. the car also shows up to be running VERY VERY RICH.
i was very fortunate to have someone down there from MRC Tuning who had a ED30 running at 395bhp. he offered to give me one of his maps if it was running full power once he put it on.
firstly he flashed the ECU back to standard which came up at 195bhp slightly under power but pretty close to what stock should be, then he put his map on. i asked him what would be the min BHP i should be getting from his map - he stated 246bhp min and 285lb/ft min. you can guess the rest.... car came up wtih the same figures as the APR trial map. so he ran VAGCOM on the car while it was on the rolling road to check the MAF and see why the ECU was requesting so much fuel... (the car also ran really really rich on his map too, he thought it ran rich on the APR map becuase it wasnt a very good map)
was very lucky to have him there as he really knew his stuff, and i got to take a look at an RS4 running 790bhp!!!!!!!!!!!
he thinks this could be done to 2 issues, the fuel pump is faulty which considering my car has only done 15k miles and driven very slowly (up to when i got it) would be unlikley. second thing he thought it might be was the lastest software version on my ECU, he thought that could be requesting too much fuel which in turn is making the car really rich arcross all three maps (stock, APR and his)
He works for a company called MRC Tuning - http://www.mrctuning.com/aboutus.php
so he invited me to come down to their office near Oxford. He is going to spend more time looking at Data and if he cant get the map to 240bhp i dont have to pay anything, either way dont have to pay for diagnostic time which is a result...
after the rolling road session which consisted of 6 runs over a 45min period the car threw up an check engine light - which was diagnosed through VAGCOM as a wierd gear box problem which i was told was thrown up by the ABS, apparently the car gets confused when the front wheels are moving but the back ones arnt.
he doesnt have a rolling road there but does have a private road to do testing on so im sure it will be possible to tell if there are any problems
my questions:
1. anyone heard of MRC Tuning?
2. if it is a fuel pump, how can i get it replaced under warranty as its not throwing up any error codes?
3. is there any chance that this new software on the ECU (from VW) could be causing the problem?
4. if not the above then what else could cause the problem? he mentioned the fuel filter could need replacing
5. shoud i just pay for the map even though its not as high as it should be but is heaps better than standard?
sorry for all the questions - will probably ask even more when i think about it more
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sounds like you are having the worst luck ever!! :sad: good luck getting everything sorted :happy2:
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MRC tuning are well respected in the world of Audi S2 and B5 S4/RS4 tuning.
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duncan thanks for keeping us informed :happy2: its a painful road but youll get there eventually.
You have at least ruled out PCV and DV now and its seems they helped :happy2:
From what you describe you still have a fundamental issue thats causing the rich fuelling in any mode (stock or mapped)
I cant see how a ECU map from VW would make any diff , as when flashed the APR or MRC maps would overwrite the code.
fuel filter is def worth changing as its cheap.
It would be preferable to log in stock map to find out why the rich mixture, but it sounds like he is willing to do the diagnosis so I may be inclined to let him :happy2:
Its getting to the bottom of the facts whilst not trying to change too many things at once.....
Surprised he would say APR isnt a good map if he knows VW/Audi tuning tbh
engine light always comes on when on the dyno , so yes no worries :happy2:
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duncan thanks for keeping us informed :happy2: its a painful road but youll get there eventually.
You have at least ruled out PCV and DV now and its seems they helped :happy2:
From what you describe you still have a fundamental issue thats causing the rich fuelling in any mode (stock or mapped)
I cant see how a ECU map from VW would make any diff , as when flashed the APR or MRC maps would overwrite the code.
fuel filter is def worth changing as its cheap.
It would be preferable to log in stock map to find out why the rich mixture, but it sounds like he is willing to do the diagnosis so I may be inclined to let him :happy2:
Its getting to the bottom of the facts whilst not trying to change too many things at once.....
Surprised he would say APR isnt a good map if he knows VW/Audi tuning tbh
engine light always comes on when on the dyno , so yes no worries :happy2:
yea, he didnt say much that was bad about APR he just thought when it first went on the rollers all he could point too was a rogue map that was asking for too much fuel, he was data logging while it went on the rollers.
once it went back to stock ECU, it was still asking for too much fuel.
its strange that it wants more fuel and nothing is pointing to any particular component..
how likely is it that the fuel pump is faulty?
how easy would it be to get VW to change the pump under warranty?
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unlikely to be the pump imho
more like some other factor is causing the ECU to request more fuel
maybe the o2 sensor has died?
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well its been a long day and the saga continues....(start of my problems - http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3310.0)
i was very fortunate to have someone down there from MRC Tuning who had a ED30 running at 395bhp. he offered to give me one of his maps if it was running full power once he put it on.
Big turbo I presume?? 395hp is a pretty a 'optimistic' claim for a K04 car..
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What did he say about the MAF? May be worth plugging another one in, just to test. I think a sensor is fooling the ECU into thinking it needs to fuel. Is the Air filter ok? Bear in mind where the car was imported from, that sand gets everywhere...........
If i knew which sensor.......................
This bit does seems strange, and does discount the MAF. But I am not convinced.
firstly he flashed the ECU back to standard which came up at 195bhp slightly under power but pretty close to what stock should be
May be worth taking a look at the MAF.
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well its been a long day and the saga continues....(start of my problems - http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3310.0)
i was very fortunate to have someone down there from MRC Tuning who had a ED30 running at 395bhp. he offered to give me one of his maps if it was running full power once he put it on.
Big turbo I presume?? 395hp is a pretty a 'optimistic' claim for a K04 car..
yep, i saw the car on the rollers and the print out - and that road is deemed to be pretty pessimistic in its results
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What did he say about the MAF? May be worth plugging another one in, just to test. I think a sensor is fooling the ECU into thinking it needs to fuel. Is the Air filter ok? Bear in mind where the car was imported from, that sand gets everywhere...........
I think theres been a mixup along the way with his documented engine code...because cars are LHD in the UAE, therefore meaning that his car can't have come from there :smiley:
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As above, a sensor is more than likely playing up or you have a boost leak. If it's over-fuelling across the rev range then it could well be a MAF or lambda sensor.
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What did he say about the MAF? May be worth plugging another one in, just to test. I think a sensor is fooling the ECU into thinking it needs to fuel. Is the Air filter ok? Bear in mind where the car was imported from, that sand gets everywhere...........
If i knew which sensor.......................
This bit does seems strange, and does discount the MAF. But I am not convinced.
firstly he flashed the ECU back to standard which came up at 195bhp slightly under power but pretty close to what stock should be
May be worth taking a look at the MAF.
when he was data logging the car on the rollers (stock map) he ruled out problems with the MAF, so did Reuben at Tuning werkes, but is still a possibility i guess.
also worth bearing in mind that the engine hasnt thrown up any codes what so ever (none found using VAGCOM)
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As above, a sensor is more than likely playing up or you have a boost leak. If it's over-fuelling across the rev range then it could well be a MAF or lambda sensor.
it is only running super rich past 3500rpm to the limit
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Sounds like a nightmare - hope you get it sorted
Jim :happy2:
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do you think i should run the map if its still only putting out under 220bhp? the car feels fantastic with the map but obviously want it to work at full potential, you really notice the extra torque too!!
would be over the moon if this problem gets solved tomorrow but am not holding my breath....
also only one of the PCV's were changed - could it possibly be a faulty rear PCV as well? is it worth getting that changed as well?
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For it to be overfuelling on a std map and aftermarket map then there's something consistantly wrong with the car and not the map. It's either got a boost leak and chucking in fuel for the amount of air it expects to recieve, the MAF is faulty and telling the ECU that there's more air than there is or the O2 sensor is telling the ECU that the there's not enough fuel in the exhaust fumes and chucking in more to compensate.
I can't see a lot else being wrong tbh, there's only certain reasons that a car really overfuels
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how can you diagnose where the problem is coming from? all through VAGCOM while driving the car?
am told that there is nothing wrong with the MAF but will get them to check again..
no chance its the second PCV that hasnt been replaced?
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What did he say about the MAF? May be worth plugging another one in, just to test. I think a sensor is fooling the ECU into thinking it needs to fuel. Is the Air filter ok? Bear in mind where the car was imported from, that sand gets everywhere...........
I think theres been a mixup along the way with his documented engine code...because cars are LHD in the UAE, therefore meaning that his car can't have come from there :smiley:
the fact that UAE is LHD is not a reason for the car to have not been imported via there. A lot of BIG dealerships buy cars and stockpile them.
On thread, I hope you get it sorted. I still think that something is telling the brain (ECU) to send more fuel, so the ECU is doing as it is told. All the ECU does is act like a big calculator, lots of inputs, and several outputs.
:confused:
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how can you diagnose where the problem is coming from? all through VAGCOM while driving the car?
am told that there is nothing wrong with the MAF but will get them to check again..
no chance its the second PCV that hasnt been replaced?
Could well be the second PCV, it's worth looking at before you start looking at bigger things.
Borrow a fellow members MAF and O2 sensor, I don't know how long they take to change on the TFSI but I can't imagine it being long.
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Maybe the ECU is faulty?
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Big turbo I presume?? 395hp is a pretty a 'optimistic' claim for a K04 car..
i know they've mapped a GTI with a GT30 turbo on it to just over 400bhp, so i reckon he's got one of those.
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MRC did mention that they could overide the ECU code to tell it to send the right amount of fuel but that still doesnt solve the problem of why its over fueling in the first place....
they are going to change the fuel filter - will get them to have a look at the second PCV and another look at the MAF
then do diagnostics while the car is driven to try and find a faulty sensor.
after that f*ck knows what could be causing the problem unless its just a particuarly sh*t engine
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MRC did mention that they could overide the ECU code to tell it to send the right amount of fuel but that still doesnt solve the problem of why its over fueling in the first place....
they are going to change the fuel filter - will get them to have a look at the second PCV and another look at the MAF
then do diagnostics while the car is driven to try and find a faulty sensor.
after that f*ck knows what could be causing the problem unless its just a particuarly sh*t engine
What's your mpg like? Any white smoke on boost? Does it make full boost?
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Are you getting any support from the dealer that sold you this car as if it were mine i would be demanding something! Technically they haven't they mis-sold you this vehicle as something it isn't, if im not mistaken. I hope you manage to get it sorted anyway!
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MRC did mention that they could overide the ECU code to tell it to send the right amount of fuel but that still doesnt solve the problem of why its over fueling in the first place....
they are going to change the fuel filter - will get them to have a look at the second PCV and another look at the MAF
then do diagnostics while the car is driven to try and find a faulty sensor.
after that f*ck knows what could be causing the problem unless its just a particuarly sh*t engine
What's your mpg like? Any white smoke on boost? Does it make full boost?
mpg isnt great, car is definitely running full boost according to VAGCOM. no white smoke. i did get nearly 100 miles to a 1/4 tank recently wiht a mixture of stop start london driving and motorway which seems about right
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Are you getting any support from the dealer that sold you this car as if it were mine i would be demanding something! Technically they haven't they mis-sold you this vehicle as something it isn't, if im not mistaken. I hope you manage to get it sorted anyway!
i bought the car from yorkshire and i live in london but have been in touch, they offered to give me my money back on the car if i wanted.
to get the same spec car i have from VW is around 14.5k / 15k which is money i dont have.
i paid 13k
car specs:
DSG
electric sunroof
xenons
electric seat
parking sensor
5 door
6 cd disc changer
multi function steering wheel
color coded bumbers
problem was when i took it to a local VW garage they couldnt find a problem with the car, they ran diagnostics and couldnt find anything so there wasnt much i could go to the dealer i bought the car from with....
once i find the full scale of the problem i will be contacting them asking for money towards the repairs i have had to pay for even though the car is under warranty...
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Are you getting any support from the dealer that sold you this car as if it were mine i would be demanding something! Technically they haven't they mis-sold you this vehicle as something it isn't, if im not mistaken. I hope you manage to get it sorted anyway!
i bought the car from yorkshire and i live in london but have been in touch, they offered to give me my money back on the car if i wanted.
to get the same spec car i have from VW is around 14.5k / 15k which is money i dont have.
i paid 13k
car specs:
electric sunroof
xenons
electric seat
5 door
6 cd disc changer
multi function steering wheel
color coded bumbers
problem was when i took it to a local VW garage they couldnt find a problem with the car, they ran diagnostics and couldnt find anything so there wasnt much i could go to the dealer i bought the car from with....
once i find the full scale of the problem i will be contacting them asking for money towards the repairs i have had to pay for even though the car is under warranty...
I understand your quandry now, hopefully you will get to the bottom of this soon and with the minimum amount of outlay! :happy2:
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Glass guide says i should get 13100 px with my extras; maybe i should try and px it for an ED30 and pay 4k off over 5 years...
found a couple of nice ones for about 17k from VW
only worth it if i got what i paid for it px and am guessing thats unlikley..
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Right Duncan. :rolleye:
Here is my advice
First off go back to the company you bought the car off, and kindly ask them will they honor the deal they offered you of giving you your money back, tell them you would like to persevere with fixing the car but you need to set a time limit on it as you cant go one throwing money and time at it.
once you have that to fall back on get back to sorting this car. Stop buying bits for it and dont buy a re- map just get the standard car back to good health. As John - o has said if you add bits without finding out the problem it will make it harder to trace and could exasperate the problem.
Even if you need to give it back and get a new car, a few more weeks of reading on here will change your knowledge of what to look out for and what to avoid. Hope this helps :smiley:
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Right Duncan. :rolleye:
Here is my advice
First off go back to the company you bought the car off, and kindly ask them will they honor the deal they offered you of giving you your money back, tell them you would like to persevere with fixing the car but you need to set a time limit on it as you cant go one throwing money and time at it.
once you have that to fall back on get back to sorting this car. Stop buying bits for it and dont buy a re- map just get the standard car back to good health. As John - o has said if you add bits without finding out the problem it will make it harder to trace and could exasperate the problem.
Even if you need to give it back and get a new car, a few more weeks of reading on here will change your knowledge of what to look out for and what to avoid. Hope this helps :smiley:
thats good advice.
when i was at the rolling road today they put the car back to stock ECU settings and that came out rich but was running at 195bhp which is pretty close to standard.
was thinking getting the remap was actually a good form of diagnostics as when the car is being pushed more its revewaling the weaknesses, if that makes sense....
am going to phone the garage i bought the car from tomorrow and have another chat with them.
otherwise may consider pxing it and getting an ED30...
big difference between insurance on a GTI vs ED30?
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Not sure on the insurance it may be one group more but wont be to much :smiley:
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Hope you get it all sorted matey, sounds like your having a feckin nightmare :sad:
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just read this thred, feel sorry for you mate, ive been there and i know how youl be feeling. :sad:
if i were you if send the car back and get a different gti/ed30 :happy2:
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Wow Duncan :scared:
Its such a pity that your first experience with a GTi has been such a struggle. I think you deserve a round of applause for wanting to get another one and not just buying a Renault :driver: :rolleye:
Just so you know. I spoke to a few racing centres and mechanics about your car... And tomorrow Im meeting with the Focus ST club (Dont slaughter me) and from there Im going to have meetings with two of our biggest Audi and VW specialists here in Cape Town.
I will report back what they say but echo what the others have said. Just replace it ftw.
Mike
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Update!!!!!!
spent the day at MRC tuning:
drove around a quiet road full throttle in a couple of gears while it was being data logged, we were focusing on the usual suspects, fuel pressure, air mass meter, boost leaks
all apeared perfect but again was getting a rich mixture under full throttle (stock map). so although it was running Rich everything else was looking spot on so the decision was made to but the map on and have a look.
again went for a drive, data logging while full throttle, still coming up rich and not feeling perfect but still a million times more responsive than under the stock map
then went back to the work shop, map was changed to limit the fuel mixture so it wouldnt drop below 11.5 (below 9 before)
this made all the difference - the car was rapid, seriously rapid, couldnt belive the difference to be honest really was sensational.
while i was there i got the fuel filter changed, didnt notice much but did seem a bit more responsive than before.
then drove back, ended up dropping the owner Mihnea to heathrow as i was passing so when i got there he did a final check for error codes, warnings, nothing came up - although there was a weird error about the immobiliser but the car started so obviously nothing seriously wrong with it.
all in all the car seems to be behaving like a remapped GTI!! so am very very happy :laugh:
when i woke up this morning i rang a local VW garage to get a trade in price for my car becuase they had an ED30 for sale. the salesman was annoying (reminded me of one of those people on the apprentice who are supposed to be great salesman but are just annoying as hell!!)
ended up leaving it and sticking with the car to get it sorted, have invested alot of time an effort (and a little emotion) into getting it up to scratch so would have been lame to have given up.
i asked the tuner why it was running rich and what fixed it, he couldnt explain it since all the usual suspects were behaving, after making more changes to his map and limiting the ECU to stop making the car run so rich that seems to have done it
very strange though, was convinced that it was something faulty but looks ok
they dont have a rolling road so dont have figures and to be honest i dont want to know, am loving how the car performs, will only be dissapointed for no reason if its still only putting out 220bhp..... the torque feels much stronger than yesterday and that was running at 265lb/ft so is probably up in the 280's now.
thanks for all the help and advice guys
Cheers
Duncan
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well , Im think Im pleased for you....
In all honesty its a workaround for an issue you still havent found/fixed.
However its your car and if you are happy , I am too :happy2:
with the mixture changed by that amount you probably have even more power than you think now :evilgrin:
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Hopefully the end to your saga. Enjoy the car now!
Good news.
:happy2: :happy2:
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Good to hear sh*t's working out for you Dunc. Now you can concentrate on enjoying the car! :driver:
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Did they charge you for the new map?
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Perhaps not the route that I would have taken, but I'm glad that your now happy, and that you can enjoy the car. :happy2:
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Perhaps not the route that I would have taken, but I'm glad that your now happy, and that you can enjoy the car. :happy2:
what route would you have taken? thing was, inorder to get all the diagnostics for free had to get the map if the power returned, if it didnt i wouldnt have had to pay anything and was very thorough diagnostics. what else could i have checked to see why it was running rich?
ended up paying £500 for the map which was very customised for my car, alot of changes were made from the base model map.
am very happy with the car and still kind of curious why it was running rich, but with the new map is running a good mixture and at the end of the day the car is under warranty so am not going to worry to much, they have said they are happy to reload any maps that get wiped by dealer updates for free and will remove and put back on if i have any problems down the line. if the map causes any issues or directly results in parts getting damaged then they will sort it which is good peace of mind
would really like to know what you guys would have done differently?
also got them to inspect the rear PCV before we started which is good news!!
at the end of the day i dont think they would have put the map on if there were any problems so we spent a good few hours making sure the car had no issues with it, again checking fuel pressure, boost leaks, MAF and replaced the fuel filter!
the question is i guess why was the ECU requesting more fuel than it should be, under map and at stock map...
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i think the postion both myself ansd whiteGTI were coming from is the underlying issue has not been fixed.
We didnt expect you to do more, we expect whomever is investigating to find the route cause, rather than workaround the issue.
I can fully understand why you have decided to do what you have :happy2: , in the end sometimes compromises have to be made.
consider this , if in the future for some reason the 'fault' is inadvertantly 'fixed' , potentially your custom remap will now be far too lean and need recalibrating back to a 'normal remap'...... (I dont know if the remap adjustment of your fuelling is done on a % basis , or by absolute values?)
now :grouphug: , it works , you are happy with it , and I presume the working parameters of the engine are ok AFR etc.
now go enjoy :driver:
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^^^ Exactly what John_o said! :grin:
I'm happy that you've now got a working car, enjoy it, no doubt you will absolutely love it! As i live relatively close to you no doubt we'll pass eachother on the roads soon!
:smiley: :smiley: :jumpmove:
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glad you got it sorted! sounds like a right ball ach!
:happy2:
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As above, a sensor is more than likely playing up or you have a boost leak. If it's over-fuelling across the rev range then it could well be a MAF or lambda sensor.
it is only running super rich past 3500rpm to the limit
Very interesting - sounds like the exact opposite to my issue which is fuel too lean past 4k rpm
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As above, a sensor is more than likely playing up or you have a boost leak. If it's over-fuelling across the rev range then it could well be a MAF or lambda sensor.
it is only running super rich past 3500rpm to the limit
Very interesting - sounds like the exact opposite to my issue which is fuel too lean past 4k rpm
So does this mean that where MRC tuning have altered the map to counterract the richness past 3500, that it now runs too lean up to 3500?? Just curious that's all!
Also, with regard to what Illyun said above, could it be a problem with the actual injectors then?
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in terms of the richness
we were only getting problems with the car being too rich when the throttle was wide open and we were over 4500rpm. which was much better than the previous day
this was at the start of the day before the remap went on.
are the injectors faulty? well the ECU is requesting the extra richness so not sure if that rules them out or not.
the car is running fine in the lower rev range - the change made to the richness in the code is that the fuel ration is set on a limit so the ECU does not let the car dip below 11.5afr and bearing in mind this was only happening at pretty high revs.
not sure if ive explained that correctly....
going back to the Richness problem - what else could you have done to see why it was running too rich at high revs? was tricky becuase im guessing it is very difficult to know why the ECU wants more fuel than it should do when you have ruled out the obvious possilbe causes.
one thought was that the latest version of software on the ECU was set to run too rich... not sure if thats a possibility or not
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I havent' fully read your 'other' thread so apologies but I gather there is a question mark over where your car is from?
I'm just thinking aloud here but is it possible that for other countries a different 'stock' map is applied to the ECU to counteract for example higher ambient temperatures (though if anything I would have thought this would result in a leaner mix), the quality of the fuel available in that part of the world etc etc.
Presumably when an update is applied, the correct update is applied depending on the serial number of the ECU. So even if you took it into a UK VW dealer, an update for the UAE map would be applied?
I'm not sure how a map works, does it completely overwrite the stock map or does it just 'add' values to it. I.e for a given set of conditions increase fuel by 5%......
I can see the different stock map for different regions being a possibility, but my theory might be out of the window considering you have the same problem with the performance map....
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I havent' fully read your 'other' thread so apologies but I gather there is a question mark over where your car is from?
I'm just thinking aloud here but is it possible that for other countries a different 'stock' map is applied to the ECU to counteract for example higher ambient temperatures (though if anything I would have thought this would result in a leaner mix), the quality of the fuel available in that part of the world etc etc.
Presumably when an update is applied, the correct update is applied depending on the serial number of the ECU. So even if you took it into a UK VW dealer, an update for the UAE map would be applied?
I'm not sure how a map works, does it completely overwrite the stock map or does it just 'add' values to it. I.e for a given set of conditions increase fuel by 5%......
I can see the different stock map for different regions being a possibility, but my theory might be out of the window considering you have the same problem with the performance map....
i think the issue of the car being an import and having a strange country code i dont think is the problem. the car was delivered to the uk without any miles on the clock in september 2006 the date of its first registration. however the car was manufactured late 2005, again i dont think this is the issue.
the stock map seemed to want to run too rich at high revs, i dont think this as an isolated problem is that big a deal. what is strange is that the ECU is requesting to much fuel, after doing alot of diagnostics there was nothing to prove why the ECU was demanding too much fuel at very high revs. replacing the DV / PCV seems to have sorted the power issues and helped with the richness but not entirely. with this remap in its generic form they dont mess too much with the fuel ratio side of the map but in my case they did put a liimit on the fuel mixture which seems to have cured the problem since the car is throwing no error codes under load or after being driven. all the data coming from the car with the latest custom map seems to be looking spot on.
the tuner spent a very long time with the car before he put the map on and then spent a while looking through the data trying to establish if it was a faulty part on the car that was causing the richness issue, since nothing could be found after extensive data logging, all he did was imposed a limit on the cars ECU forcing it not to over fuel, since this has happened the power has been hugely increased, the fuel economy seems to have slightly improved but nothing majorly noticeabe and after driving 100 miles with the new map, the car was data logged and checked for any faults and the only thing that came up was an immobiliser fault which seems to be quite random and is not throwing any numbers up on the dash, this could be due when the ECU was being flashed the flash failed and had to be reapplyed which threw up electrial fault codes but nothing functional going wrong wtih the car.
all in all i would love to say the problem is completley solved.. i dont know for sure and i guess only time will tell; but as mentioned before if the data is looking correct under the new map including the fueling which is now running spot on again along with fuel pressure, boost pressure, MAF, what else could it be?
if there is a problem it cant be to big i guess my point is - if when the car is on load and not throwing up incorrect numbers or fault codes, it is near impossible to see why the over fueling occured in the first place and why it continued to occur during the mapping process
for me i guess it points to the ECU, and possibly when the WALD remap was applied the changed some fundamental Fueling instructions that would usually stay as normal when applying other maps, this would lead to the ECU constantly requesting too much fuel for the simple fact that the data on the ECU was set to do (that could have been the worst explanation ever stated on this forum, but hopefully you know what i mean)
again I agree that getting a remap wtih an undiagnosed problem leading to running rich isnt ideal, but when nothing points to a part failure leading to it then what else can you do apart from tell the ECU to stop making incorrect requests
Thoughts on this?
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"the stock map seemed to want to run too rich at high revs, i dont think this as an isolated problem is that big a deal. what is strange is that the ECU is requesting to much fuel, after doing alot of diagnostics there was nothing to prove why the ECU was demanding too much fuel at very high revs. replacing the DV / PCV seems to have sorted the power issues and helped with the richness but not entirely. with this remap in its generic form they dont mess too much with the fuel ratio side of the map but in my case they did put a liimit on the fuel mixture"
Thats what makes me think that your ECU is behaving exactly as it should. All the sensors and diagnostics are coming up clean. When I say its behaving exactly as it should, its doing what it should be doing say in a country where they sell a lower grade of petrol or where some other constant 'variable' is present. Trouble is no one has told your ECU that its no longer having to deal with that shoddy petrol or whatever and that it doesn't need to throw so much petrol in.
I know your car hasnt' physically been to a different country, but it would have left the factory with the equipment / settings for that country.
As a completely made up example, perhaps in a hot dusty country the fueling paramaters are designed to take into account that the fuel filter may be partially blocked at all times, or that due to expansion of the fuel (due to heat) that for a given number of pump cycles the volume of fuel actually delivered is less than at our ambient temperature. Extreme but this is what I mean.
I realise its an oddball suggestion but you seem to have drawn a blank at the usual suspect.
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nice theory ub7rm , certainly worth a letter to VW UK asking :happy2:
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nice theory ub7rm , certainly worth a letter to VW UK asking :happy2:
+1 was think that aswell! id put this on your 'list of things to check'
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nice theory ub7rm , certainly worth a letter to VW UK asking :happy2:
I thought that too, but surely the map would have addressed that as a potential cause? BTW, its not your injectors, as my ECU is requesting the correct AFR, but its not getting through the injectors.
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thats a very good point and to be honest - the over fueling has to point to the ECU setup - the tuner thought it might of had something to do wtih the latest software that is on the ECU from VW
the only thing is if it was for a country with an extremley different climate to that of the uk / EU then it would have been produced left hand drive.
my only feeling is that when it had this WALD conversion instead of just applying a Generic map they ended up altering the fuel mixture, so when the map has been flashed due to a software update, this may not have entirely flashed the ECU's settings still leaving a kind of ghost of the privious map
not sure if that is actually possible - but again could be possible?
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Good point but as stated most well known tuners (not sure for all) replace the map on the car with their modified version so this would rule it out. I know Revo always work on the latest released map - e.g. when mine went in for the ECU update I was actually already running it but they didnt know so I let them apply it for piece of mind as I was under warranty.
Glad its all sorted though :happy2:
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Good point but as stated most well known tuners (not sure for all) replace the map on the car with their modified version so this would rule it out. I know Revo always work on the latest released map - e.g. when mine went in for the ECU update I was actually already running it but they didnt know so I let them apply it for piece of mind as I was under warranty.
Glad its all sorted though :happy2:
from my understanding after speaking in depth wtih MRC Tuning, Generic maps like Revo / apr / GIAC etc do make big changes to the stock map but dont adjust everything, it was only when the changes were made to my custom map that the fueling sorted it self out.
I think your right about the new release of software not being the cause of the car running rich.
to be honest am kind of quoting what ive been told / understand from the conversations i had about my car.
the APR map i had on the car didnt make changes to some of the stock settings on the ECU, it was only when he put his map on, data logged then changed the custom map for my car to change its fuel ratio that the car stopped running rich at high revs.
only issue i have with the car now is that i feel the brakes arnt quite up to it after the remap as the car is that much faster!
also am getting a rubbing / grinding when im hard lock going forwards and backwards - not too worried about this as car is underwarranty so can get it fixed easily
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I think your is a little different to the 'norm' so you needed a completely custom map with tables being altered that normally dont need to be.
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The steering noise is most likely the steering rack - all to common a problem.
I'm not an programmer but I would imagine the way most remaps work is by altering stock setting by some delta, not overwriting the absolute values. And almost certainly not overwriting the entire map - this would be a huge undertaking by any tuner, they most likely leave the vast majority of the code unchanged, and just tweak the bits that they have to. So if your 'stock' map is off, the remap will only increase / decrease that value by some delta. An off the shelf remap maybe doesn't play with the parameters that are 'wrong' with your stock map which was why it was only addressed by the custom remap?
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The steering noise is most likely the steering rack - all to common a problem.
I'm not an programmer but I would imagine the way most remaps work is by altering stock setting by some delta, not overwriting the absolute values. And almost certainly not overwriting the entire map - this would be a huge undertaking by any tuner, they most likely leave the vast majority of the code unchanged, and just tweak the bits that they have to. So if your 'stock' map is off, the remap will only increase / decrease that value by some delta. An off the shelf remap maybe doesn't play with the parameters that are 'wrong' with your stock map which was why it was only addressed by the custom remap?
very well put
i think thats what i was trying to say but couldnt quite get there!
well so far no probs with the car and the remap - still getting used to the power and am being taken by suprise every time i put my foot down
does definitley make me want to upgrade my brakes and suspension
curiousity is making me want to take it to a rolling toad but i dont want to be annoyed if the figures arnt there, am more than happy with the performance so there is little point in my book...
will wait until there is a group buy thing on!
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tbh I have no idea how much code is changed for each remap. Although consider this...
APR remap has an OE like map which is APR's interpretation of the original VW map.
Plus VW own the orginal source code and protect it , so its an interesting point as in theory you cant 'copyVW map' and change a few params....
My limited understanding is that there can be 2 types of tuning , 1) the (relatively) easy way by modifying limited parameters as the ECU seems them or 2) taking the whole code apart and building your own.
Interesting talking point :happy2:
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Good point on the VW not letting anyone copy their map bit. I kindov imagined that remaps work a bit like an extension or an 'overlay' to the 'stock' map that filters certain commands and modifies them according to a set delta or even range of deltas and letting the stock look up tables provide the absolute value to modify.
I may be speaking utter utter shyte - wouldn't be the first time :laugh:
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I'm still not convinced by the above in terms of the car over-fuelling/running rich... this is because the car in stock mode should not run rich full stop. Duncan, have you been to VW and had your car ECU completely rewritten rather than just updated? I would have thought that this would cure the problem if it is an ECU issue programming issue. Then it would be safe to put the MRC map back on without the (imho, questionable) workarounds for excess fuelling at higher rpms. If it was my car, I'd want to know why my car isn't behaving like other GTIs...
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I'm still not convinced by the above in terms of the car over-fuelling/running rich... this is because the car in stock mode should not run rich full stop. Duncan, have you been to VW and had your car ECU completely rewritten rather than just updated? I would have thought that this would cure the problem if it is an ECU issue programming issue. Then it would be safe to put the MRC map back on without the (imho, questionable) workarounds for excess fuelling at higher rpms. If it was my car, I'd want to know why my car isn't behaving like other GTIs...
i know what you mean, and i do want to know - but have spent 80% of the time ive owned the car trying to figure out why things arnt as they should be... and since the car is underwarranty for another year im happy to leave it now since its not something complely obvious im happy to just enjoy the car for now.
i do belive that it could be down to this wald convesion being crap and leaving incorrect tables on the ECU.
at the end of the day it appears to me that somewhere down the line the ECU has been badly programmed but the only obvious problem was the rich ness at high revs, once this was overwritten it could be and not saying definitley is the possible end to my problems invovling running rich
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I'm still not convinced by the above in terms of the car over-fuelling/running rich... this is because the car in stock mode should not run rich full stop.
I agree..... in this country. But if its an ECU set up for a different country, where environmental conditions not seen here are present that the ECU has been programmed to compensate for - its a possibility. In that country, running on that countrys fuel no overfueling may be apparant. One cars meat is another cars poison after all.....
Also remember that its not sensors or instumentation showing the car to be overfuelling, its the tuner who is presumably comparing it with his experience....of UK / European cars.
Another thing to bear in mind is that when that ECU is plugged into the VW diagnostic machine, it will match up the map that should be on it with the region its supposed to be in. Not the region its actually in unless you ask specifically for that to happen.
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The easiest way to discount an ECU fault would be to substitute the ECU with known good from another vehicle and data log accordingly. If the excess fuel situation still exists then there is clearly a fundamental underlying problem that really needs sorting before altering the map? :wink:
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The easiest way to discount an ECU fault would be to substitute the ECU with known good from another vehicle and data log accordingly. If the excess fuel situation still exists then there is clearly a fundamental underlying problem that really needs sorting before altering the map? :wink:
agreed!!!
and would have liked to have done that, but the having an ECU to swap would be the first mission, then the labour charge for swapping and diagnostics would cost me at least a few hundred and since the car is still under warranty am pretty reluctant to spend money on it.
getting the remap made sense in a way although it didnt diagnose the full problem, it was at least 2 hours of free diagnostics that ruled out alot of problems that the car could have had which in turn made the remap much cheaper since i got all that labor for free!
also the way i see it if this could be the start of a problem that would need fixing it would become obvious enough for VW to fix the car under warranty
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Rolling road day coming up Duncan, bring it down mate and have a look.
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=2883.0
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Rooling road day coming up Duncan, bring it down mate and have a look.
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=2883.0
looks good - not a million miles away from portsmouth. just need to check if im working that weekend, got a feeling im off so would be good to make it down there.
although I almost dont want to put the car on the rollers becuase if its still only putting out 220bhp ill be so pissed off lol
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add your name to the thread list if you can make it Duncan ok.
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add your name to the thread list if you can make it Duncan ok.
will do - should know by tuesday