MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: Jussa on October 01, 2011, 10:56:09 pm
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Are they the same engine? :confused:
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not quite. the S3 has got some strengthened internals and maybe different injectors?
but if you map them both, you'll get the same power output. at the end of the day it's the same block and same turbo.
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The S3 has different cams vs the ed30. Apart from that the engines are almost identical.
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Ok then, if that's the case and the Cupra K1 also has the same engine, then why is it that the Cupra gets an extra 20 to 30 BHP with the same mods (stage 2+)?
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i don't think it does?
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The S3 has different cams vs the ed30. Apart from that the engines are almost identical.
Don't think they do seen both engines in bits and pretty sure they are 100% the same
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Yeah, but most stage 2+ K1's have 370-380bhp and the ED30's only get around 340-350?
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Yeah, but most stage 2+ K1's have 370-380bhp and the ED30's only get around 340-350?
It's called Dyno Lottery!
I've seen 1 ED30 make 370+ on a certain Dyno.
Have u seen them run on same day, same dyno, same mods, map, settings etc? If not then there will always be differences!
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The S3 has different cams vs the ed30. Apart from that the engines are almost identical.
Don't think they do seen both engines in bits and pretty sure they are 100% the same
fairly sure the S3 has a different inlet cam.
Just looked at Etka and the Ex cam is the same part number as Ed30. Inlet cam on S3 is different part number.
Same valves though.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fv211%2Fstokeballoon%2FNewPicture1-1.jpg&hash=35ba876b12e9ee5b594366b42cf3024329804f2d)
^^^^^ 101 H is Audi inlet cam p/no for the 195Kw engine - 195 Kw is 265 Horses
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Wonder where the difference lies? I know there are type A & B cam shafts?
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Think hurdy made nearly 400bhp once on superchips rollers :signLOL: :signLOL: says it all
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Think hurdy made nearly 400bhp once on superchips rollers :signLOL: :signLOL: says it all
Must have been the Supersuperspuds map? I tried a SS map once and despite their excellent C'service it was poor, lasted all of 4 days on the car.
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Wonder where the difference lies? I know there are type A & B cam shafts?
According to one member in the US forum, there is slight difference in lift and timing.
Arin of APR has changed his cams for the S3 ones and reported little butt dyno difference.
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Doesn't have a bigger intercooler or oil cooler?
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Wonder where the difference lies? I know there are type A & B cam shafts?
According to one member in the US forum, there is slight difference in lift and timing.
Arin of APR has changed his cams for the S3 ones and reported little butt dyno difference.
Was he Ed30 or Cupra? :happy2:
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Was he Ed30 or Cupra? :happy2:
Neither, he has the standard US FSI gti that he upgraded to a k04 before replacing his cams.
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Ah, rite. :happy2:
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Doesn't have a bigger intercooler or oil cooler?
Larger ic
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So I guess the next question is, if I do the K04 upgrade to my current stage 2+ GTi how would that compare to a stage 2+ ED30? Would the performance be the same? :confused:
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^^^^^^ i believe the only differances between the s3 engine and the edition 30 are a strengthend block, intercooler and possibly cams, going big turbo ko4 on a gti seems to get less power on the gti than the edition 30 some believe this is due to different cams which makes me think that the s3 has the same cams as an edition 30 ?
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If the ed30 has beef'd up internals, means to me that putting a k04 on a weaker strength block and pistons will only eventually lead to one ending.......
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Steve p red mk5 ie Vwr old car was a ko3 car turned to ko4 with ed30 cams but is now on an ed30 mtr
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There will be a certain degree of overengineering in the gti engine to and despite there being a fair few ko4 conversions now ive not heard of any problems with the ko3 block or internals yet, although ive no doubt the edition 30 is going to cope with the extra stresses better.
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There have been numerous head gasket failures on the strengthened engine when people have been running stage 2 + though.
If i was going to modify by adding a ko4 i think i would do it on the newest tsi engines , they seem to be a lot better , have better flow and make more power.
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Well now I'm totally lost :scared:
I was hoping that the upgrade would give me the same power as an ED30, but after all this banter I guess I need to sell the car and get an ED30 or Pirelli :sad1:
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DanGb big turbo'd his Tfsi Sport Leon (200hp / Gti engine) He did end up getting fancy Rods by IE and pistons though.
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There have been numerous head gasket failures on the strengthened engine when people have been running stage 2 + though.
If i was going to modify by adding a ko4 i think i would do it on the newest tsi engines , they seem to be a lot better , have better flow and make more power.
Tbh ive been a 2.0t owner for a few years now and check the forums reasonably regularly and ive never heard of a head gasket go yet, ive heard of two engines going pop but no gaskets pinging.
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I saw one go bang at castle coombe that wasn't a forumite. Car was wrapped in Gulf branding.
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If the ed30 has beef'd up internals, means to me that putting a k04 on a weaker strength block and pistons will only eventually lead to one ending.......
I doubt it. My Ko4 converted since 50k has 101k on the engine now and runs perfect and never any issues.
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^^^^^^ i believe the only differances between the s3 engine and the edition 30 are a strengthend block, intercooler and possibly cams, going big turbo ko4 on a gti seems to get less power on the gti than the edition 30 some believe this is due to different cams which makes me think that the s3 has the same cams as an edition 30 ?
Using the same dyno for comparison Revo stage 3 Ko4 conversion vs Ko4 stage 2 + give the same average bhp, in fact the ko3 engines seem to hold the power longer up the rev range.
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Hey Micky, thanks for the info, just PM'd u :happy2:
I would have bought Rizla's car today, but I don't think he has xenons? :sad1:
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DanGb big turbo'd his Tfsi Sport Leon (200hp / Gti engine) and had no issues. He did end up getting fancy pistons though for safety.
DanGB bent one of his piston rods before uprating them iirc. Pics in his build thread.
At jussa: theres been a couple occasions were guys with this 370hp have turned up at RR days on here but left with many missing horses and only making what the ed30 guys make. Its purely dyno lottery. For instance the highest stage 2+ TFSI KO4 JKM have run was circa 335hp iirc that includes S3s, ed30s, cupras etc.
Also the kO4 converted cars get around the same hp as the ed30 on their rollers as well
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Will edit my post, don't remember reading that just remember it going to jabba for rods / pistons.
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I wouldnt be too focused on what engine has what and how much BHP the car is making. Its all about how it is applied as some engine have big hp which is peaky and others have power across the rev range which will be in the real world quicker. Look at the Renault Megane 250 cup and Focus RS mk2. The RS has the Megane outgunned power wise with about another 40bhp yet the Megane is quicker. Going to a bigger turbo doesnt always mean it will be quicker. Usually bigger turbos are fine for the strip but get them on a nice twisty road with sharp bends and you will be struggling to use the extra power, as you wont be in the right rev band for the turbo to spool properly. Just look back at the old Escort Cosworth which changed to a smaller turbo to increase driveability on the road. As JannerSy has said before, its all pub talk BHP figures. But good luck in whatever you decide to do :happy2:
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I wouldnt be too focused on what engine has what and how much BHP the car is making. Its all about how it is applied as some engine have big hp which is peaky and others have power across the rev range which will be in the real world quicker. Look at the Renault Megane 250 cup and Focus RS mk2. The RS has the Megane outgunned power wise with about another 40bhp yet the Megane is quicker. Going to a bigger turbo doesnt always mean it will be quicker. Usually bigger turbos are fine for the strip but get them on a nice twisty road with sharp bends and you will be struggling to use the extra power, as you wont be in the right rev band for the turbo to spool properly. Just look back at the old Escort Cosworth which changed to a smaller turbo to increase driveability on the road. As JannerSy has said before, its all pub talk BHP figures. But good luck in whatever you decide to do :happy2:
:congrats:
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i have been stage 2+ now for months - and have not had a RR session! Whats the point?
If it comes out at 370bhp it does not mean it really is and if it comes out at 335bhp maybe it is really 350bhp?
Even if it is 350-370 bhp will it be quicker than RS3? Of course not.
Do the mods you want to get the car to drive differently and how you want it - what i can say is that 2+ with a diff is quicker than a Stage 1 and that was quick.
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There has been loads of threads on here mate with stage 3 k04 cars not quite making the same power as edition 30s / s3s / cupras with stage 2 + and a few tuners suggested that to me aswell thats one of the reasons why i chose not to go stage 3 and sell my GTI, maybe your car just produces a bit more, and brings it in line.
then again it could be due to different RRs
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Good point mate, that's why I'll probably sell up now and buy an ED30 :happy2:
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There will be a certain degree of overengineering in the gti engine to and despite there being a fair few ko4 conversions now ive not heard of any problems with the ko3 block or internals yet, although ive no doubt the edition 30 is going to cope with the extra stresses better.
Compression ratio's are different. The ED30 has a 9.8:1 CR and the GTI has a 10.25:1 CR.
This means that even with a K04 turbo on a GTI you will struggle to get the same power. :happy2:
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Berg, what makes you think an ed30 stage2+ wont be any quicker than a standard rs3. My brother in-law is stage 2+ and he went and test drove a rs3 which he was less than impressed with, he reckoned his ed30 would eat one alive.
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:popcornsoda:
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Budge over Mike, Don't mind if I do..............
:popcornsoda:
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There will be a certain degree of overengineering in the gti engine to and despite there being a fair few ko4 conversions now ive not heard of any problems with the ko3 block or internals yet, although ive no doubt the edition 30 is going to cope with the extra stresses better.
Compression ratio's are different. The ED30 has a 9.8:1 CR and the GTI has a 10.25:1 CR.
This means that even with a K04 turbo on a GTI you will struggle to get the same power. :happy2:
Yes true, if you like the dyno lottery. :P. The hard evidence is there, on the same RR (JKM as example) the normal GTI engine vs the ED 30 engine with a KO4 gives the same average bhp.
Higher compression isn't a bad thing, in fact the engine will be more efficient because when the boost tails off the higher compression engine holds on longer. I have yet to see a ED30 on JKM's RR still make 320bhp at 7500rpm like my "GTI" engine.
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Budge over Mike, Don't mind if I do..............
:popcornsoda:
**shuffles over & opens chocolate fingers :signLOL:
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Berg, what makes you think an ed30 stage2+ wont be any quicker than a standard rs3. My brother in-law is stage 2+ and he went and test drove a rs3 which he was less than impressed with, he reckoned his ed30 would eat one alive.
but that is probably due to the mapping?
a stage 2+ car will feel like it has urgency from the lightest press of the loud pedal , where as i would have thought a standard RS3 would have a more civilised map and meaning you would have to press the loud pedal harder to get the same amount of oommmpphhhh imho.
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I'd love another S3, would have DSG Sportback this time. Going to have an ED30 again first then upgrade next year.
I think the S3 is such a capable car, when mapped
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So in between a rock and a hard place here :confused:
You're talking about figures of an ED30 stage 2+ not getting more tha 320 on the rollers???
How the he'll do Cupra K1's achieve 360-370bhp??
That skoda VRS got around 340 on the JKM rollers a few months ago when I was there.
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Just ordered a S3 sport back stronic with pan roof
See here for the engine details
http://www.mrctuning.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=119:s3-8p-engine&catid=48:audi-8ps3&Itemid=59
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:signLOL: nice, but I'm not prepared to change my whole engine.
It's either the car or the K04 upgrade :happy2:
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There has been loads of threads on here mate with stage 3 k04 cars not quite making the same power as edition 30s / s3s / cupras with stage 2 + and a few tuners suggested that to me aswell thats one of the reasons why i chose not to go stage 3 and sell my GTI, maybe your car just produces a bit more, and brings it in line.
then again it could be due to different RRs
Once again, unless you compare cars on the same RR the argument is pointless. JKM's rollers have measured variious converted KO4's and factory KO4's and the average bhp is the same.
Secondly my mate has a Cupra stage 2+ which i have driven and have had a play against and it's NOT faster than my converted KO4.
I actually got a second hand proper S3 BHZ engine in the garage that i got very cheap thinking i would get more power but after researching the only reason i would fit it to my vRS is if i blew my own engine.
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Mickey, what did you get on JKM rollers?
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Berg, what makes you think an ed30 stage2+ wont be any quicker than a standard rs3. My brother in-law is stage 2+ and he went and test drove a rs3 which he was less than impressed with, he reckoned his ed30 would eat one alive.
Have you seen the Evo test with the RS3 versus the Volvo polestar test car? The RS3 was recording near to 4.0 seconds 0-60 times. Can a front wheel drive ED30 be that quick? Incidentally, the Volvo was quicker than the RS3 - hope they put it into production.
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Neils ED30 did 4.92 secs at Inters, and that surface had no traction :party:
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Dude, im not disputing its not a quick car. Obviously its got 4wd launch control and dsg which is gonna contribute to quick 0-60 times, he just said he didn't think he could justify paying 40k for something that he didn't think felt as quick as his ed30 stage 2+. I know what he means though because at inters this year i was on the strip against one of the players lads ttrs' , now he was putting down 0-60 times in the 3s i was in the 6s and my first time on the strip. The overall time of his was in the 12s and mine in the 14s, so over the quarter i had clawed probably a sec back. Makes you wonder what mine would have done if i had dsg 4wd and launch.
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:signLOL: don't worry mate I was the same. What was your best 0-60 and quarter mile time?
I felt the surface was absolute rubbish with no traction whatsoever. :sad1:
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:signLOL: don't worry mate I was the same. What was your best 0-60 and quarter mile time?
I felt the surface was absolute rubbish with no traction whatsoever. :sad1:
Do you know what mine was :P :P :grin:
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Yes mate, don't rub it in :congrats:
We'll have to have a rematch at santa pod when I can get the power down....and I have my LSD fitted :signLOL:
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14.68 fella. I'll be back next year got the bug :signLOL:
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Nice, so have I :smiley:
My best time was 14.41 I think.
Are u DSG?
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No gizmos just normal straight forward non cheating manual. :signLOL: