MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: luckyGti on October 05, 2011, 01:52:22 pm
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I'm considering buying a S3 engine to have fitted in my mk5 golf, currently i have a ko4 conversion on my gti but need to replace the turbo so i thought that maybe it's a good idea to replace everything in the quest for a stronger and more reliable set up.
I would like some advice from the technical guys here on what i should be aware of and what to look out for when buying a second hand engine, every classified advert i read states low mileage etc but how can these guys who sell prove that they are genuine low mileage should they come with any kind of paperwork??
Could the experts out there please advise me what i should be looking for and what questions should i be asking the seller to make sure i end up with another can of worms.
Any advice on conversions no matter how basic would be gratefully received as i'm completely clueless when it comes to these kind of things and would really like to avoid any costly amateur mistakes.
With the replacement S3 engine would i need it to be complete with loom and ecu or could i use what's is currently on my mk5, I'm guessing though that i would need it to come with the s3 ecu as the engines are slightly different.
Thanks all :happy2:
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Forget S3, go for RS-TT 2.5l :driver:
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Last 2.5TFSI I saw went for 7k.......
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^^ :party: Stormdevelopments for the above
Stattler in Sheffield for the straight 2.0 Tfsi swap, SteveJnr knows his beans in the VAG circle :happy2:
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Forget S3, go for RS-TT 2.5l :driver:
:signLOL: I did briefly scan ebay for the 2.5 engine but there aren't any available and i'm sure it would cost mega money to buy in the first place.
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Forget S3, go for RS-TT 2.5l :driver:
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,35784.0.html (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,35784.0.html)
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Last 2.5TFSI I saw went for 7k.......
Thought that would be the case :happy2:
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^^ :party: Stormdevelopments for the above
Stattler in Sheffield for the straight 2.0 Tfsi swap, SteveJnr knows his beans in the VAG circle :happy2:
Great advice Mike, just spoke to Steve jnr and think i'm going get them to install a new S3/edition 30 engine which will save me messing around sourcing an engine etc :happy2:
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^^ :party: Stormdevelopments for the above
Stattler in Sheffield for the straight 2.0 Tfsi swap, SteveJnr knows his beans in the VAG circle :happy2:
Great advice Mike, just spoke to Steve jnr and think i'm going get them to install a new S3/edition 30 engine which will save me messing around sourcing an engine etc :happy2:
Not a problem, visit Stattler regular when Im home in England :happy2:
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All though admittedly very good, Statlers charge an arm and a leg for their conversions.
Joes GTI bought one of a chap on here for, i think £1200ish fitted for him as well. He then sold his GTI engine for £700ish so it cost him about £500, probably a bit more all told, for a S3 engine with stage 2+ map on it already. :smiley:
This guy has one sitting in his garage that he might not want anymore. :wink:
There has been loads of threads on here mate with stage 3 k04 cars not quite making the same power as edition 30s / s3s / cupras with stage 2 + and a few tuners suggested that to me aswell thats one of the reasons why i chose not to go stage 3 and sell my GTI, maybe your car just produces a bit more, and brings it in line.
then again it could be due to different RRs
Once again, unless you compare cars on the same RR the argument is pointless. JKM's rollers have measured variious converted KO4's and factory KO4's and the average bhp is the same.
Secondly my mate has a Cupra stage 2+ which i have driven and have had a play against and it's NOT faster than my converted KO4.
I actually got a second hand proper S3 BHZ engine in the garage that i got very cheap thinking i would get more power but after researching the only reason i would fit it to my vRS is if i blew my own engine.
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All though admittedly very good, Statlers charge an arm and a leg for their conversions.
Joes GTI bought one of a chap on here for, i think £1200ish fitted for him as well. He then sold his GTI engine for £700ish so it cost him about £500, probably a bit more all told, for a S3 engine with stage 2+ map on it already. :smiley:
This guy has one sitting in his garage that he might not want anymore. :wink:
There has been loads of threads on here mate with stage 3 k04 cars not quite making the same power as edition 30s / s3s / cupras with stage 2 + and a few tuners suggested that to me aswell thats one of the reasons why i chose not to go stage 3 and sell my GTI, maybe your car just produces a bit more, and brings it in line.
then again it could be due to different RRs
Once again, unless you compare cars on the same RR the argument is pointless. JKM's rollers have measured variious converted KO4's and factory KO4's and the average bhp is the same.
Secondly my mate has a Cupra stage 2+ which i have driven and have had a play against and it's NOT faster than my converted KO4.
I actually got a second hand proper S3 BHZ engine in the garage that i got very cheap thinking i would get more power but after researching the only reason i would fit it to my vRS is if i blew my own engine.
Thanks for the heads up :happy2: , funnily enough i actually emailed mickey 32 yesterday to see if he wanted to part with it but he said he wanted to keep hold of it in case his engine died.
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This might still turn out to be an expensive proposition as I'm guessing you'll still have to get/supply a new k04 turbo on top of the engine swap.
What about mapping, is revo going to see you as an old or new customer with a different ecu as the price difference is not insubstantial.
Big question is will you be gaining anything tangable in real world terms compared to your present setup. Only you can answer that question. :smiley:
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I believe turbo is included.
I often wonder where you would stand with engine swap & remap like you ay with it being a different ECU ?
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http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3299323.htm
:P
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I believe turbo is included.
I hope you're correct as I thought of this as being a 'long' engine replacement i.e block+cylinder head and ecu, the rest of the parts being transplanted from the old engine.
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I believe turbo is included.
I hope you're correct as I thought of this as being a 'long' engine replacement i.e block+cylinder head and ecu, the rest of the parts being transplanted from the old engine.
Mike is correct, turbo is included and think it's £1500+vat for complete low mileage s3/edition 30 engine and turbo obviously you have fitting which is another £500+vat
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I believe turbo is included.
I hope you're correct as I thought of this as being a 'long' engine replacement i.e block+cylinder head and ecu, the rest of the parts being transplanted from the old engine.
Mike is correct, turbo is included and think it's £1500+vat for complete low mileage s3/edition 30 engine and turbo obviously you have fitting which is another £500+vat
Once you throw in a 2+ map that is a lot of money compared to buying a new turbo. :smiley: even with your bargaining skills. :wink:
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Is it at all possible to make existing ECU work??
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All though admittedly very good, Statlers charge an arm and a leg for their conversions.
Joes GTI bought one of a chap on here for, i think £1200ish fitted for him as well. He then sold his GTI engine for £700ish so it cost him about £500, probably a bit more all told, for a S3 engine with stage 2+ map on it already. :smiley:
This guy has one sitting in his garage that he might not want anymore. :wink:
There has been loads of threads on here mate with stage 3 k04 cars not quite making the same power as edition 30s / s3s / cupras with stage 2 + and a few tuners suggested that to me aswell thats one of the reasons why i chose not to go stage 3 and sell my GTI, maybe your car just produces a bit more, and brings it in line.
then again it could be due to different RRs
Once again, unless you compare cars on the same RR the argument is pointless. JKM's rollers have measured variious converted KO4's and factory KO4's and the average bhp is the same.
Secondly my mate has a Cupra stage 2+ which i have driven and have had a play against and it's NOT faster than my converted KO4.
I actually got a second hand proper S3 BHZ engine in the garage that i got very cheap thinking i would get more power but after researching the only reason i would fit it to my vRS is if i blew my own engine.
bang on sunshine,
i put a ed30 with stage2+ software on in mine, paid £1300 for the engine and fitting with the software already on it. Then sold my old engine (with a cracked turbo) for £700.
Check my project thred, and PM me if you need any info. The clocks were the hardest part to get sorted, i ended up de-activating the imob.
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Once you throw in a 2+ map that is a lot of money compared to buying a new turbo. :smiley: even with your bargaining skills. :wink:
My haggling skills have gone out the window this time, I should be able get some kind of deal with switching over from stage 3 to stage 2+, a new turbo would of been a cheaper option but i'm buying into peace of mind reliability and stronger internals just in case i ever decide to go down the bigger turbo route as i'm limited with the current engine :happy2:
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I wish I would have know Stadtlers was so cheap I paid £2582.80 for my hybrid turbo and rebuild and another £££ for the mapping at RSTuning and still have a diesel :sad1:
So we're talking £2500 with the Vat for the full engine and fitting?? Wow wheres the smiley withe the foot up its ars
Darren
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I wish I would have know Stadtlers was so cheap I paid £2582.80 for my hybrid turbo and rebuild and another £££ for the mapping at RSTuning and still have a diesel :sad1:
So we're talking £2500 with the Vat for the full engine and fitting?? Wow wheres the smiley withe the foot up its ars
Darren
:fighting2: - close lol
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As far as i know the S3 and GTi engine are the same and the only difference is the S3 engine has different internals. So it should be a straight swap using your existing looms etc and ancillaries. You already have Revo stage 3 which is based on Revo stage 2+ so you shouldn't have a problem. I think Harry on Briskoda put a S3 lump in his vRS running Revo 3.
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Is it at all possible to make existing ECU work??
Yes, both engines use the same ECU. (Bosch ME9-can) just need to map it correctly.
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bang on sunshine,
i put a ed30 with stage2+ software on in mine, paid £1300 for the engine and fitting with the software already on it. Then sold my old engine (with a cracked turbo) for £700.
Check my project thred, and PM me if you need any info. The clocks were the hardest part to get sorted, i ended up de-activating the imob.
You managed to get an outstanding deal there :happy2: I've had a look through ebay/pistonheads and people seem to want crazy prices for just the engine without the turbo, it will cost me more than sourcing the parts myself but in theory will be as good as off the shelf as possible with hopefully none of the little hitches that you encountered. Don't get me wrong i would love to be able to achieve what you did for the price but realistically it's never going to happen.
I'm not the luckiest when it comes to saving a few pennies by sourcing everything myself and i know it would end up costing me more in the long run trying to iron out the inevitable issues that will spring up an deja vu of my ko4 conversion.
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Cheers Mike :laugh:
Darren
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Cheers Mike :laugh:
Darren
:wink: - lol
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Or well ill take it in the back side the next time, although bargain days today bagged some Porsche calipers cheap for the soot chucker :happy2:
Darren
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Good luck with the swap mate, let us know how u get on :party:
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so basiclly your saying your better off putting a ko4 on to the existing engine instead? how do the nornal gti engines hold up with the k04 internal wise?
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so basiclly your saying your better off putting a ko4 on to the existing engine instead? how do the nornal gti engines hold up with the k04 internal wise?
Apparently the internals hold up very well both here in the UK and in the US where far more folk have made this upgrade without any major issues being reported.
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In a ideal world you would want an s3/edition 30 engine but putting a ko4 on a standard gti engine is absolutely fine and 99% of people don't have any issues at all.
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Good luck with the swap mate, let us know how u get on :party:
Thanks bud, after our conversation the other night i decided it's the best way to make the most out of the car :happy2:
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Am I right in saying for a ko4 conversion you need a turbo, s3 injectors and mapping? What bhp is generally achieved after the conversion?
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This may be a completely stupid thing to say, but since the majority of the engine is the same couldnt you just change the internals of the normal GTi engine with S3/Ed30 cmas and head change injectors and inter-cooler add S3 or ED30 map to the ECU and you would have the same engine, plus you ECU and immo wouldnt need to change?
Just trying to think outside the box, and surely that would involve less work and you would then know the engine history and while the work is being done you can clean the valves and cylinders up.
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This may be a completely stupid thing to say, but since the majority of the engine is the same couldnt you just change the internals of the normal GTi engine with S3/Ed30 cmas and head change injectors and inter-cooler add S3 or ED30 map to the ECU and you would have the same engine, plus you ECU and immo wouldnt need to change?
Just trying to think outside the box, and surely that would involve less work and you would then know the engine history and while the work is being done you can clean the valves and cylinders up.
Seems a logical suggestion even from here inside the box lol
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This thread is quite interesting.
http://www.vagsg.com/forums/showpost.php?p=417150&postcount=468 (http://www.vagsg.com/forums/showpost.php?p=417150&postcount=468)
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This thread is quite interesting.
http://www.vagsg.com/forums/showpost.php?p=417150&postcount=468 (http://www.vagsg.com/forums/showpost.php?p=417150&postcount=468)
That is interesting. I did wonder, if people are having filthy valves cleaned, why not have the ports ported & Polished at the same time for better flow
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Mmmm gas flowed head, cams, forged pistons, rods, baffled sump, new bearings/seals... Big turbo... mmmm
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This may be a completely stupid thing to say, but since the majority of the engine is the same couldnt you just change the internals of the normal GTi engine with S3/Ed30 cmas and head change injectors and inter-cooler add S3 or ED30 map to the ECU and you would have the same engine, plus you ECU and immo wouldnt need to change?
Just trying to think outside the box, and surely that would involve less work and you would then know the engine history and while the work is being done you can clean the valves and cylinders up.
It's a very valid point and actually probably the most sensible thing to do, but i'm opting for the easiest most off the shelf solution, granted it comes at a price but at the same time i would be looking at £950 for a new turbo from an official shop, then add all the labour costs in stripping the engine back and replacing many parts including sourcing the parts from an s3 engine i would be nearing the £2000 mark i reckon, it would be one thing if i was competent under the bonnet but unfortunately i'm hopeless and checking the oil level is as far as my expertise goes.
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This thread is quite interesting.
http://www.vagsg.com/forums/showpost.php?p=417150&postcount=468 (http://www.vagsg.com/forums/showpost.php?p=417150&postcount=468)
Excellent link, do you know if they carried on stripping the engine down in a future thread :happy2:
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only found it today after reading this thread and seeing if I could find uprated engine parts on the inter web, so if they did go further I havent found it yet, but it would be very interesting to see if they did.
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Just reading this thread and is it me or does this engine swap seem like an awful lot of messing around for a few horses!! maybe do it if yours went pop after all the bolt ons but i really cant see the point! Mine struggles enough putting the power down on the front! Just my opinion
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I did wonder, if people are having filthy valves cleaned, why not have the ports ported & Polished at the same time for better flow
The simplest method for periodic cleaning the intake valves in our engine is to use a walnut blaster. It removes the buildup without having to remove the head, just the intake.
I believe bmw also use this method on their direct port injection engines.
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I did wonder, if people are having filthy valves cleaned, why not have the ports ported & Polished at the same time for better flow
The simplest method for periodic cleaning the intake valves in our engine is to use a walnut blaster. It removes the buildup without having to remove the head, just the intake.
I believe bmw also use this method on their direct port injection engines.
Walnut blaster? How does it work?
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Walnut blaster? How does it work?
Essentially walnut shells are blasted at the intake valves. The shells are abrasive and remove most of the build up but it's a time consuming process.
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Just looking at engine details in wiki and thought this would be interesting reading especially the note at the bottom of the page about the differences in 169Kw motors and up:
2.0 R4 16v TFSI 125-199kW
This turbocharged EA113 engine is based on the naturally aspirated 110kW 2.0 FSI.
identification
parts code prefix/variant: 06F.C, 06F.D
engine displacement & engine configuration
1,984 cubic centimetres (121.1 cu in) inline-four engine (R4/I4); bore x stroke: 82.5 by 92.8 millimetres (3.25 in × 3.65 in), stroke ratio: 0.89:1 - undersquare/long-stroke, 496.1 cc per cylinder, compression ratio: 10.5:1
cylinder block & crankcase
CG25 grey cast iron with liquid-blasted cylinder bore honing; 88 mm (3.46 in) cylinder spacing, five main bearings, die-forged steel crankshaft, two simplex-roller chain driven balance shafts
cylinder head & valvetrain
cast aluminium alloy; modified inlet duct geometry for high tumble values providing superior knock resistance, four valves per cylinder (exhaust valves sodium filled for increased cooling), 16 valves total, low-friction roller finger cam followers with automatic hydraulic valve clearance compensation, belt and roller-chain driven double overhead camshaft (DOHC), continuous intake camshaft adjustment (42° variance from crankshaft)
aspiration
hot-film air mass meter incorporated into air filter housing, cast alloy throttle body with electronically controlled 'drive by wire' throttle butterfly valve, plastic variable length controlled intake manifold with charge movement flaps adjusted by a continuous-action pilot motor, 0.9 bars (13.1 psi) boost water cooled BorgWarner K03 turbocharger (K04 on 169 kW upwards) incorporated in exhaust manifold, sandwiched central front-mounted intercooler (FMIC)
fuel system
fully demand-controlled and returnless; - fuel tank mounted low pressure fuel pump, Fuel Stratified Injection (FSI): inlet camshaft double-cam driven Hitachi single-piston high-pressure injection pump maintaining a pressure between 30 to 110 bars (440 to 1,600 psi) in the stainless steel common rail fuel rail, four combustion chamber sited direct injection sequential solenoid-controlled fuel injectors, air-guided combustion process, multi-pulse injection with homogeneous mixing, stratified lean-burn operation with excess air at part load
ignition system & engine management
centrally positioned Bosch longlife spark plugs, mapped direct ignition with four individual direct-acting single spark coils; Bosch Motronic MED 9.1 electronic engine control unit (ECU), cylinder-selective knock control via two knock sensors, permanent lambda control
exhaust system
secondary air injection pump for direct injection into exhaust ports to assist cold start operation, cast iron exhaust manifold (with integrated turbocharger), one primary and one main ceramic catalytic converters, four heated oxygen sensors monitoring pre- and post catalyst exhaust gasses
dimensions
length: 652 millimetres (25.7 in), width: 648 millimetres (25.5 in), height: 666 millimetres (26.2 in), mass: 152 kilograms (335 lb)
DIN-rated motive power & torque outputs, ID codes & applications
125 kilowatts (170 PS; 168 bhp) @ 4,300 rpm; 280 newton metres (207 ft·lbf) @ 1,800-4,200 rpm — BPJ — Audi A6 (C6), VW Tiguan
136 kilowatts (185 PS; 182 bhp) @ 6,000 rpm; 270 newton metres (199 ft·lbf) @ 1,800-5,000 rpm — BWA — 2005 SEAT León
147 kilowatts (200 PS; 197 bhp) @ 5,100-6,000 rpm; 280 newton metres (207 ft·lbf) @ 1,700-5,000 rpm — AXX, BWA, BWE, BPY (North America) — Audi A4 (B7), Audi A3 (8P), 2006 Audi TT, VW Passat (B6), VW Golf Mk5 GTI, VW Jetta Mk5 GLI, SEAT León FR Mk2, SEAT Altea, SEAT Toledo Mk3, SEAT Exeo, Škoda Octavia (1Z) vRS
162 kilowatts (220 PS; 217 bhp) @ 5,900 rpm; 300 newton metres (221 ft·lbf) @ 2,200-4,800 rpm — BUL — 2005 Audi A4 (B7) DTM Edition
169 kilowatts (230 PS; 227 bhp) @ 5,500 rpm; 300 newton metres (221 ft·lbf) @ 2,250-5,200 rpm — BYD — VW Golf Mk5 GTI Edition 30 & Pirelli Edition
177 kilowatts (241 PS; 237 bhp) @ 6,000 rpm; 300 newton metres (221 ft·lbf) @ 2,200-5,500 rpm — BWJ — SEAT León Cupra, SEAT León Cupra Mk2 facelift
188 kilowatts (256 PS; 252 bhp) @ 6,000 rpm; 330 newton metres (243 ft·lbf) @ 2,400-5,200 rpm — CDL — Audi S3 (8P), Golf R (Australia, Japan)
195 kilowatts (265 PS; 261 bhp) @ 6,000 rpm; 350 newton metres (258 ft·lbf) @ 2,500-5,000 rpm — BHZ — Audi S3 (8P)
195 kilowatts (265 PS; 261 bhp) @ 6,000 rpm; 350 newton metres (258 ft·lbf) @ 2,300-5,200 rpm — CDL — Audi S3 (8P), Audi TTS, SEAT León Cupra R Mk2 facelift
199 kilowatts (271 PS; 267 bhp) @ 6,000 rpm; 350 newton metres (258 ft·lbf) @ 2,500-5,000 rpm — CDL — Audi TTS, Golf R (Europe)
notes
the 169 kW and higher versions have stronger pistons and gudgeon pins, new rings, reinforced connecting rods, new bearings, reinforced cylinder block at the main bearing pedestals and cap, new lightweight aluminium-silicon alloy cylinder head for high temperature resistance and strength, adjusted exhaust camshaft timing, increased cross-section high-pressure injectors, 1.2 bars (17.4 psi) (value only valid for Audi S3(8P)) boost pressure K04 turbocharger with larger turbine and compression rotor (S3, Cupra, GTI Edition 30), of which some components are NOT shared with the lower output variants
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^^^^ I presume that the part you've highlighted shows the advantages of having edition 30/s3 engine over a regular mk5 Gti :happy2:
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After having my K04 conversion on a 115k AXX engine, if it went pop, i would just have my engine rebuilt. Apart from the same things that affect all TFSI engines the only so called weak point compaired to the ED30/S3 engine are the con rods and pins :happy2:
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Is the 115k engine the ko3 conversion?
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After having my K04 conversion on a 115k AXX engine, if it went pop, i would just have my engine rebuilt. Apart from the same things that affect all TFSI engines the only so called weak point compaired to the ED30/S3 engine are the con rods and pins :happy2:
That would be the best thing to do, nice forged internals :innocent:
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I have 101k on my BWA ko4 converted. Done since 50k and never any issues. it's a good unit. I actually find it amazing that all the issues i see on these and other forums are with the Ed30 engine and the BWJ Cupra engine when tuned, makes you wonder...
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I have 101k on my BWA ko4 converted. Done since 50k and never any issues. it's a good unit. I actually find it amazing that all the issues i see on these and other forums are with the Ed30 engine and the BWJ Cupra engine when tuned, makes you wonder...
Are you on Revo tune Mikey?
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Are you on Revo tune Mikey?
Yes he is... :smiley: