MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: keith on April 04, 2009, 08:19:17 pm
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I have been reading about the Whiteline WALK with interest and nearly placed my order yesterday but for my tuner didn't get back to me, but then today I was reading gadgets post about his car and he has fitted uprated S3 wishbone mounts these look to me to be the exact same thing as the WALK (scuse my ignorance I am not a mechanic). If so whats the difference between my ED30 wishbone mount and that of the S3 and would i notice a difference fitting the S3 version and also whats the cost of the S3 version as i know the WALK's are roughly £135.
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i would say that the S3 variety would NOT give you the increase in "dynamic" negative camber that the WALK would do. But that's only what i think maybe the difference.
no idea how much the S3 version is.
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I didn't think it was an increase (decrease :confused:) in camber.
I thought it changed the castor angle.
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I didn't think it was an increase (decrease :confused:) in camber.
I thought it changed the castor angle.
spot on its caster angle
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Yes, the oem S3 wishbone mounts won't have the castor angle - Which is the whole point and advantage of the WALKS.
HTH :happy2:
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Ive just looked on ETKA and the bearing bracket(front wishbone rear bush bracket)is the same part number for all the golfs inc GTI and R32 and all A3's inc S3??? I dont get how ppl are saying its an uprated bracket?
I only question this cos I had my MOT on monday and I had an advisory about the wishbone bushes starting to split so bought the front poly bushes from Regal but when coming to fit them they dont look bad at all? So will replace the other bush which is the same has the walk bracket.
If i'm looking at the wrong part number can the lads who have bought this supply the part number thanks
Darren
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^^^^
If you are going to replace the oem rear wishbone bushes then why not get the Whiteline Anti Lift Kits?
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^^^^
If you are going to replace the oem rear wishbone bushes then why not get the Whiteline Anti Lift Kits?
You have a valid point as always RR. Why replace for standard when you can have an upgrade for probably less money!
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The WALK increases castor angle, so although looking the same as the OEM mount, it isn't. The S3 bush doesn't have voids in the rubber that the Golf's has, so it'll be harder, but won't give you the same benefits as the WALK. That is engineered to alter caster.
Adding castor also gives you something called dynamic camber, much better than static camber for a road car. This is of benefit because it doesn't wear the tyres unevenly when going in a straight line, yet it gives camber when the wheels are turned, thus increasing the "footprint" of the tyre when cornering, rather than scrubbing the walls.
In simple terms, it pushes the lower part of the strut forwards meaning the point of axis is forward of where the tyre touches the tamac causing a trail effect, like a chopper. If you think about turning the wheel on a chopper, it leans, developing camber when done so, but runs true once straight.
It also has the effect of pushing the inside wheel down, lessening the effect of inside wheelspin, think of a go-kart, they run loads of caster and when turning the steering wheel, it'll cock a wheel as it pushes the inside one down... not as extreme on the WALK obviously, but the effect works.
Lastly, it also means you can run the fronts in parallel, rather than toe-in as the trail effect means they'll run straight without tramlining - this is entirely personal choice though, but keeps tyre temps/wear down.
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The WALK increases castor angle, so although looking the same, it isn't. The S3 bush doesn't have voids in the rubber, so it'll be harder but won't give you the same benefits.
Adding castor gives you something called dynamic camber. Much better than static camber for a road car, this is of benefit because it doesn't wear the tyres unevenly when going in a straight line, yet it gives camber when the wheels are turned.
In simple terms, it pushes the lower part of the strut forwards meaning the point of axis is forward of where the tyre touches the tamac causing a trail effect, like a chopper. If you think about turning the wheel on a chopper, it leans, developing camber when done but runs true once straight. It also has the effect of pushing the inside wheel down, lessening the effect of inside wheelspin.
....Very nicely described 'tony', and when combined with a well setup coilover suspension and a Quaife diff.............
.........it's just a bit good, or in English, it isn't half bad! [he said very smugly] :evilgrin:
P.S. - That's the best description (by tony_danza) of how WALK works that I've ever read - I think it ought to be added to the WALK Review - Just change the word "S3" to "stock" or "oem".
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The S3 bush is different to the Golf one, so I think if we're talking about 3/4 stages of upgrade it is relevant.
Stock (soft)
S3 (harder)
Poly (hardest)
WALK (Poly + caster increased)
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The WALK increases castor angle, so although looking the same, it isn't. The S3 bush doesn't have voids in the rubber, so it'll be harder but won't give you the same benefits.
Adding castor gives you something called dynamic camber. Much better than static camber for a road car, this is of benefit because it doesn't wear the tyres unevenly when going in a straight line, yet it gives camber when the wheels are turned.
In simple terms, it pushes the lower part of the strut forwards meaning the point of axis is forward of where the tyre touches the tamac causing a trail effect, like a chopper. If you think about turning the wheel on a chopper, it leans, developing camber when done but runs true once straight. It also has the effect of pushing the inside wheel down, lessening the effect of inside wheelspin.
that explaination from Whiteline Australia / Balance Motorsport was good wasn't it! :wink:
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Yes Chungster, it's basically what I can remember from when I wrote that initial review and Whiteline's addition... I only understand the basic theory, I couldn't tell you about combined effects of various aspects of geometry on each other.
I've tweaked my bit up there too.
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did u beat your time from last year yesterday??
yours looked rather good on the track i have to say.
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Took over a second out of it, very very happy.
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Took over a second out of it, very very happy.
see you just missed out on getting under 30secs! good time tho, 5th best on the day!
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The S3 bush is different to the Golf one, so I think if we're talking about 3/4 stages of upgrade it is relevant.
Stock (soft)
S3 (harder)
Poly (hardest)
WALK (Poly + caster increased)
This is my thinking hence the upgrade to the S3 units. APS have noticed tuned Edition 30's and GTi's suffering with lots of play in the bushes and this was just a mod to stop this. I don't want to go to mad as I only drive this 5% of the time, it is my wife who drives it and every mod comes with a condition "As long as I can still get over speed bumps at Waitrose"
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The S3 bush is different to the Golf one, so I think if we're talking about 3/4 stages of upgrade it is relevant.
Stock (soft)
S3 (harder)
Poly (hardest)
WALK (Poly + caster increased)
This is my thinking hence the upgrade to the S3 units. APS have noticed tuned Edition 30's and GTi's suffering with lots of play in the bushes and this was just a mod to stop this. I don't want to go to mad as I only drive this 5% of the time, it is my wife who drives it and every mod comes with a condition "As long as I can still get over speed bumps at Waitrose"
Can anyone clue me up on the effects of camber as this post above plus a couple of others are getting me confused. :rolleye:
First point, MR gadget you mention above you did not want to go mad with the mods, because basically its the wife's, so you chose the S3 unit rather than the W.A.L.K kit. Understandable but in your ride thread, you have added negative camber to your rear wheels.
So guys can you explain to me the full effects of adding real camber to front and back of the car. What are the benefit's and negative's . This is me carrying the sign :signIWS: but surely adding negative camber to the rear is more extreme than adding the walk kit to the fronts. :confused:
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Negative camber simply gives the outside tyre a better footprint, to stop it rolling onto the sidewall under hard cornering as it turns to positive.
Imagine going around a hard bend, a normal outside wheel will go from this | to this /. A neg camber wheel will go from this \ to this |. Does that help?
Too much and it'll wear the inside of the tyre.
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Negative camber simply gives the outside tyre a better footprint, to stop it rolling onto the sidewall under hard cornering as it turns to positive.
Imagine going around a hard bend, a normal outside wheel will go from this | to this /. A neg camber wheel will go from this \ to this |. Does that help?
Too much and it'll wear the inside of the tyre.
....Plus by having just a little negative camber on the rears /--------\ you'll be less inclined to lose the back end (again why it's best to have your deeper treaded tyres on the rear axle of a FWD car).
The trick is to have enough without creating uneven tyre wear.
HTH
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So what is the angle of dangle from the factory as a degree :smiley:
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Oh, I couldn't tell you what degree of the top of my head!!
However, I have a laser GEO print out somewhere at home with my stats on, so I could probably tell you what I'm currently running.
Mike's proably got yours actually from when you had the coils fitted, unless he gave it to you?
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I am asking this question really because i may need to put a bit of camber on mine to get the ride height how i want once the wheels arrive, i have bought some of the KW camber adjust top mounts, but i also paid a lot for my tyres and i would like to know how much camber i can put on before the tyre start to wear past normal rates, I think i may only need a little bit of camber on the fronts, would just a touch cause excessive wear. :smiley:
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I'd heard reports of those camber'd lower arms GTI Engineering do that give 1.5degrees of negative caused people to go racing through tyres.
But that's just 3rd hand stories, I'd seek a pro's advice mate!
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I trusted Mark at VWR to setup mine and I've twice checked for uneven tyre wear since and no sign of any.
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But you dont have any KW camber adjust mount's do you RR or have i missed it somewhere. :ashamed:
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But you dont have any KW camber adjust mount's do you RR or have i missed it somewhere. :ashamed:
....The rear camber can be adjusted even on the standard GTI suspension as I understand it. Even as much as -3 degrees I have read - Though I personally wouldn't recommend it.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi33.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fd84%2Fetrain92688%2Flower3.jpg&hash=8fa3d35528f3b528a4bfdd9192e6395258107346)
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I'd heard reports of those camber'd lower arms GTI Engineering do that give 1.5degrees of negative caused people to go racing through tyres.
But that's just 3rd hand stories, I'd seek a pro's advice mate!
but it works wonders when attacking corners on a track! EVO loved their demo car set up.
But yeah the inside edge won't last long on normal straight road driving with that much camber.
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But you dont have any KW camber adjust mount's do you RR or have i missed it somewhere. :ashamed:
....The rear camber can be adjusted even on the standard GTI suspension as I understand it. Even as much as -3 degrees I have read - Though I personally wouldn't recommend it.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi33.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fd84%2Fetrain92688%2Flower3.jpg&hash=8fa3d35528f3b528a4bfdd9192e6395258107346)
wow...that looks ridiculous!
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^^^^
Yes, "ridiculous" is the best description and he's done it just for looks :rolleye:
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I'd heard reports of those camber'd lower arms GTI Engineering do that give 1.5degrees of negative caused people to go racing through tyres.
But that's just 3rd hand stories, I'd seek a pro's advice mate!
but it works wonders when attacking corners on a track! EVO loved their demo car set up.
But yeah the inside edge won't last long on normal straight road driving with that much camber.
In an ideal world, I'd have some fancy coilovers and adjustable topmounts to bang some camber on when tracking - the effect is stunning!
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In an ideal world, I'd have some fancy coilovers and adjustable topmounts to bang some camber on when tracking - the effect is stunning!
....I considered that with my VWR-KW-V3's but it was going to all get too expensive, particularly as I don't do track. Anyway I could add adjustable top mounts later if I changed my mind.