MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Modifications & Technical Area => Performance Modifications => Topic started by: gh172 on November 14, 2011, 03:12:31 am
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I'm running a bluefin stage 2+ K03 GTI . Thinking its time to upgrade the Intercooler and weighing up which one to get. Not really a fan of the twintercooler so I'm thinking of getting the S3 or THS Intercooler .
Ive read quite a few reviews of the S3 Intercooler on the US forums. Hear many positive reviews in regards to how much better the throttle response feels and how the car feels like it pulls harder. Although I've read some reviews on the THS, I haven't found any that describe how the car feels to drive after the change from stock. I live in Western Australia and it can get as high ad 40 degrees in Summer. From the appearance, the THS looks like the way to go, but is it worth the extra money ?
Cheers.
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I'm running a bluefin stage 2+ K03 GTI . Thinking its time to upgrade the Intercooler and weighing up which one to get. Not really a fan of the twintercooler so I'm thinking of getting the S3 or THS Intercooler .
Ive read quite a few reviews of the S3 Intercooler on the US forums. Hear many positive reviews in regards to how much better the throttle response feels and how the car feels like it pulls harder. Although I've read some reviews on the THS, I haven't found any that describe how the car feels to drive after the change from stock. I live in Western Australia and it can get as high ad 40 degrees in Summer. From the appearance, the THS looks like the way to go, but is it worth the extra money ?
Cheers.
Yes it's a tall standing cooler, it's bigger than the S3 cooler so the bigger it is..the cooler it's guna be!
I'd go THS!
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Europe - S3
Australia - THS
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Only thing that concerns me a little is lag. Just finished reading an APR intercooler review on a US site.The guy mentioned the car felt like it suffered from a little more lag after the install. Apparently even APR recommend their cooler for larger turbo applications. As the size of the THS is very similar to the APR, would you be likely to see the same result with the K03 turbo?
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S3 cooler and if your not happy then added twintercooler could be a good option?
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In my opinion THS intercooler is a little bit bigger for K03. If you plan getting also K04 upgrade then yes for THS. If not, and stay with K03, then S3 intercoolet is the way.
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s3 cooler with a ko3 car, its what i ran and never had any problems !
As said i think ths might be a bit big for the ko3, its the largest core of all the intercoolers and more benift to the cars with bigger blowers i reccon
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Thanks guys, sounds like the S3 is the way to go.
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I would go for the THS. I ran it on a K03 with no noticable extra lag, just much lower temps :happy2:
Now im on the K04 hybrid it still runs around 8-10 degs over ambient.
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THS and APR are very very silimar in size, the THS having bigger core and smaller endtanks, Look at this and see for yourself why you should go THS :wink: :grin:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fww160%2Fjakethemoss%2Fintercooler_mkv_vergleich.jpg&hash=f8e4948dd9bcb7cc32b6d380aad8f293813b2025)
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I would go for the THS. I ran it on a K03 with no noticable extra lag, just much lower temps :happy2:
Now im on the K04 hybrid it still runs around 8-10 degs over ambient.
Did the car feel like it pulled harder consistently ?
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I would go for the THS. I ran it on a K03 with no noticable extra lag, just much lower temps :happy2:
Now im on the K04 hybrid it still runs around 8-10 degs over ambient.
Did the car feel like it pulled harder consistently ?
I was only running stage 1 at the time and after the cooler was fitted I could up the boost and timing settings on the revo so the cooler released more power and in turn made it pull harder.
I can sell you S3, Forge or THS coolers too :drinking:
With the THS the hoses fit perfectly and dont need any trimming either, but then its only the Forge that needs the trimming.
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I would go for the THS. I ran it on a K03 with no noticable extra lag, just much lower temps :happy2:
Now im on the K04 hybrid it still runs around 8-10 degs over ambient.
Did the car feel like it pulled harder consistently ?
I was only running stage 1 at the time and after the cooler was fitted I could up the boost and timing settings on the revo so the cooler released more power and in turn made it pull harder.
I can sell you S3, Forge or THS coolers too :drinking:
With the THS the hoses fit perfectly and dont need any trimming either, but then its only the Forge that needs the trimming.
Do you ship to Australia?
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+1 for the THS.
I never noticed any more lag albeit on a ko4 and as Alex mentioned above, IAT's are consistantly within 10°c of ambient when on move.
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I would go for the THS. I ran it on a K03 with no noticable extra lag, just much lower temps :happy2:
Now im on the K04 hybrid it still runs around 8-10 degs over ambient.
Did the car feel like it pulled harder consistently ?
I was only running stage 1 at the time and after the cooler was fitted I could up the boost and timing settings on the revo so the cooler released more power and in turn made it pull harder.
I can sell you S3, Forge or THS coolers too :drinking:
With the THS the hoses fit perfectly and dont need any trimming either, but then its only the Forge that needs the trimming.
Do you ship to Australia?
Yep, we ship worldwide. Shall I PM you a quote when Im back in work tomorrow?
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I'd appreciate that, thanks.
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I was reading DomT's build thread in regards to his impressions of the THS Intercooler.
One comment I read when Dom was discussing his numbers on a dyno confused me a little,
"I think the one thing I noticed yesterday that puzzled me was each run was lower than the previous.
Just an observation really because you were all over me like a rash on the way there. It clearly is a very strong car. :wink:
[/quote]
Yes, I did notice the same, I think it is down to the fact that the THS FMIC has such a large core, compared to both S3 or even STD+Twintercooler set up, drop was quite noticeable. Certainly makes no difference out on the open road."
I thought with a bigger cooler " as opposed to the S3 or Forge" you would see more consistent pulls on the dyno due to the larger core and more effecient cooling. Having said that, my mechanical knowledge is next to none! So if anyone could explain why this would be typical of a larger Intercooler I would appreciate it .
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Think I'll just pay the extra and go for the tried and proven APR FMIC for peace of mind.
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Think I'll just pay the extra and go for the tried and proven APR FMIC for peace of mind.
I have the APR FMIC, i can't fault in any way except price. When i bought it the THS wasn't available, if it were i would have chosen it over the APR due to much better priced :happy2:
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I'm a little put off theTHS due to the results DomT saw on the dyno. Apparently his numbers were getting lower with every run which I would think points to the efficiency of the Intercooler . APR show the dyno results of their Intercooler after 5 consecutive runs and the numbers stay pretty consistent.
There's stacks of info in regards to the APR cooler but it's hard to find informative customer feedback about the THS.
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I'm a little put off theTHS due to the results DomT saw on the dyno. Apparently his numbers were getting lower with every run which I would think points to the efficiency of the Intercooler . APR show the dyno results of their Intercooler after 5 consecutive runs and the numbers stay pretty consistent.
There's stacks of info in regards to the APR cooler but it's hard to find informative customer feedback about the THS.
Haven't read his thread but you can see this behaviour with any IC if the RR cooling fan is less than idea.
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There are are a lot of good write ups with people praising the S3 and twintercooler setup running in tandem!!! :happy2:
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Just to throw a spanner in the works you can get intercoolers from Pace Products now, they are very big in the Ford and Japanese scenes, and are now branching into VAG. You never know you might even get discount if you offer your car up....
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hmm interesting reading... my car is currently unmapped, but i'm jumping straight to stage 2+
so to summarise the THS is kind of unproven, and probably overkill in a K03 car in a European climate? for an upgrade the S3 is probably a better option. Is that correct?
S3Dan's 600bhp S3 runs ran a THS 'cooler tho, and i read somewhere that Revo uses them on their test cars? as far as endorsements go those are 2 pretty big ones... discuss.
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"S3Dan's 600bhp S3 runs a THS cooler tho"
Not any longer....I have it on mine now. :happy2:
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don't suppose you have your OE one for sale :signLOL:
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Well, i have the APR equivalent to the THS, and i have to say i wouldn't be without.
One thing is it helps with heatsoak under loger duration og heavy load, it also keeps my intake temp max. 9 degrees Celsius above ambient temp (daily checked with Polar FIS+ advanced)
Also where you benefit the most, when the car has had a drive and are hot, when you start to drive off again, it really makes a difference in lowering the intake temps fast after the whole engine bay has been heated by the hot engine.
If changing i see no reason for settling for the less effective S3. Same job fitting a S3 and a THS. :drinking:
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but APR is tried and tested (and out of my price range)
my specialist thinks that THS is a budget brand and use cheap cores - also above someone writes about how the THS couldn't stand up to the punishment on a dyno
what about water meth? are these not an alternative to intercoolers at stage 2+?
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Sold to Dan mate. :laugh:
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Europe K03: S3
Europe K04: S3 < 300 BHP
Europe K04: THS/APR > 300 BHP
Western Australia - THS/APR
:wink:
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but APR is tried and tested (and out of my price range)
my specialist thinks that THS is a budget brand and use cheap cores - also above someone writes about how the THS couldn't stand up to the punishment on a dyno
what about water meth? are these not an alternative to intercoolers at stage 2+?
Have a read of this (https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5864.0.html)
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... of what sorry? :confused:
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http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5864.0.html (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5864.0.html)
I parsed the link in img tags by accident :ashamed:
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i've read that already, but thank you. i think i'll stick to the S3 one as they're less than half the price and for a K03 car a few people have mentioned now that it might be overkill
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If your going to strip the front end right down then surly you'd rather fit the THS cooler as it has been proven to be a better product?
Just my 2P
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If your going to strip the front end right down then surly you'd rather fit the THS cooler as it has been proven to be a better product?
Just my 2P
Just what i have tried to say, the work is the same then why not fit the better product??? :confused:
It doesn't matter if it's a K04 or K03, daily gains are there, not only in situations with Heatsoak :smiley:
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If your going to strip the front end right down then surly you'd rather fit the THS cooler as it has been proven to be a better product?
Just my 2P
you make a good point, but it's highly HIGHLY unlikely i'll be going any further than Stage 2+ (i'd rather save for a Golf R) so if it's not going to be of any benefit i'm essentially spending an extra £350 on the intercooler for no reason. i could spend that on another mod
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Interesting read.
My old car had a S3 intercooler and no a/c core and Owen had the same set up but with the addition but with a Forge Twintercooler. Both cars well all but identical other than mine had Revo S2+ and he had GIAC Extreme. When I logged both cars on a hot Scottish day (20oC), there was 0.5-1oC difference in intake temperature across the revs.
What I am interested to know is this though - with the Forge Twintercooler fitted, with an a/c core in place, does 3 cores being in front of the radiator cause the coolant temperature to rise significantly/are there any adverse effects of having 4 cores?
Also, does the overall effect of the original S3 intecooler with the stainless end tanks, when paired with the Forge Twintercooler, work out to be more efficicent than a single THS?
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Interesting read.
My old car had a S3 intercooler and no a/c core and Owen had the same set up but with the addition but with a Forge Twintercooler. Both cars well all but identical other than mine had Revo S2+ and he had GIAC Extreme. When I logged both cars on a hot Scottish day (20oC), there was 0.5-1oC difference in intake temperature across the revs.
What I am interested to know is this though - with the Forge Twintercooler fitted, with an a/c core in place, does 3 cores being in front of the radiator cause the coolant temperature to rise significantly/are there any adverse effects of having 4 cores?
Also, does the overall effect of the original S3 intecooler with the stainless end tanks, when paired with the Forge Twintercooler, work out to be more efficicent than a single THS?
S3 has alloy endtanks not stainless :happy2:
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If your going to strip the front end right down then surly you'd rather fit the THS cooler as it has been proven to be a better product?
Just my 2P
you make a good point, but it's highly HIGHLY unlikely i'll be going any further than Stage 2+ (i'd rather save for a Golf R) so if it's not going to be of any benefit i'm essentially spending an extra £350 on the intercooler for no reason. i could spend that on another mod
good news is, if you go to Golf R, You can transfer the intercooler, both engines are TFSI.
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I have the THS and I run 9-5-9 on Revo 2+ with hardly any timing pull in the Summer!
VrsAlex will vouch for this.
Even if it isn't helping me do this it gives me piece of mind that the temperatures are kept nice and low.
I thought about the FMIC but was told, by whom I can't remember, that they can be a bit laggy?
Maybe hearsay but even if what I am talking is BS I am happy :grin:
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Has anyone got any detail around the drawbacks of the Forge unit or proof that it is comparible to the likes of the THS? I have both the original alloy end tank S3 intercooler and Forge Twintercooler to fit as a pair on my car (keeping the a/c on this car), but may sell them to get a THS if there is proof it is a better all round option.
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Bump. Really would like an answer on this please :happy2:
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If you already have the s3 and the forge then stick with them. The ths is as good as those two combined, but saves some weight and doesn't create another barrier for the air to flow through.
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I have the THS and I run 9-5-9 on Revo 2+ with hardly any timing pull in the Summer!
VrsAlex will vouch for this.
Even if it isn't helping me do this it gives me piece of mind that the temperatures are kept nice and low.
I thought about the FMIC but was told, by whom I can't remember, that they can be a bit laggy?
Maybe hearsay but even if what I am talking is BS I am happy :grin:
Justin, do you have boost gauge ? :happy2:
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i am on THS I/C in tropical malaysia with KO3,throttle response is stronger much improved and more consistent over stock and S3 I/C.Need to ensure the I/C hose clamps are fully secured otherwise will cause low end lag.
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I have the THS and I run 9-5-9 on Revo 2+ with hardly any timing pull in the Summer!
VrsAlex will vouch for this.
Even if it isn't helping me do this it gives me piece of mind that the temperatures are kept nice and low.
I thought about the FMIC but was told, by whom I can't remember, that they can be a bit laggy?
Maybe hearsay but even if what I am talking is BS I am happy :grin:
Justin, do you have boost gauge ? :happy2:
No Mike but I think I logged at 22PSI.
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What I am interested to know is this though - with the Forge Twintercooler fitted, with an a/c core in place, does 3 cores being in front of the radiator cause the coolant temperature to rise significantly/are there any adverse effects of having 4 cores?
No and no.
Also, does the overall effect of the original S3 intecooler with the stainless end tanks, when paired with the Forge Twintercooler, work out to be more efficicent than a single THS?
Probably yes.
The OEM siting of intercooler - be that the poverty plastic GTI, the S3, the THS or the APR - all have an inherant design issue which causes three fundamental problems. The Forge eliminates these problems.
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What I am interested to know is this though - with the Forge Twintercooler fitted, with an a/c core in place, does 3 cores being in front of the radiator cause the coolant temperature to rise significantly/are there any adverse effects of having 4 cores?
No and no.
Also, does the overall effect of the original S3 intecooler with the stainless end tanks, when paired with the Forge Twintercooler, work out to be more efficicent than a single THS?
Probably yes.
The OEM siting of intercooler - be that the poverty plastic GTI, the S3, the THS or the APR - all have an inherant design issue which causes three fundamental problems. The Forge eliminates these problems.
Please could you explain. Does removal of a/c core help eradicate one or all of the problems?
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Has anyone got any detail around the drawbacks of the Forge unit
What drawbacks? OK, the Forge has two drawbacks - its price, and the fact that it isn't 'OEM' - as in OEM sited.
or proof that it is comparible to the likes of the THS?
The Forge has significant advantages over the THS (or any of the other OEM 'sited' coolers).
I have both the original alloy end tank S3 intercooler and Forge Twintercooler to fit as a pair on my car (keeping the a/c on this car), but may sell them to get a THS if there is proof it is a better all round option.
It depends what you are after! If you just want the ULTIMATE method of cooling - then swap your S3 for a THS, but still KEEP your Forge as well.
Ditching the Forge for just the THS would be a backward step.
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What I am interested to know is this though - with the Forge Twintercooler fitted, with an a/c core in place, does 3 cores being in front of the radiator cause the coolant temperature to rise significantly/are there any adverse effects of having 4 cores?
No and no.
Also, does the overall effect of the original S3 intecooler with the stainless end tanks, when paired with the Forge Twintercooler, work out to be more efficicent than a single THS?
Probably yes.
The OEM siting of intercooler - be that the poverty plastic GTI, the S3, the THS or the APR - all have an inherant design issue which causes three fundamental problems. The Forge eliminates these problems.
Please could you explain.
I did a detailed write up some time ago - it was either on this forum or on GolfGTI.co.uk forum. Do you fancy using the search to save me typing it out again? :wink:
Does removal of a/c core help eradicate one or all of the problems?
Yes, that will be one of the problems - but if anything, the a/c core is probably the least of the 'evils'. The simple fact that the OEM siting bolts it directly on to the firkin hot coolant rad is a massive faux pas. :sad1:
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Will have a search, ta
Might look into spacing them slightly?
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I enquired about fitting the Forge alongside the THS and I understand there is a couple of issues:
1: You would need to have custom Forge Silicon Pipes made as the THS comes with its own 'custom' pipes to replace the OEM pipes.
2: I was led to believe that 'lag' may be an issue due to the massive(!) increase in IC size what with the larger THS and Forge.
3: Again I could be talking BS?
Am I wrong about the Lag issue TT?
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I enquired about fitting the Forge alongside the THS and I understand there is a couple of issues:
1: You would need to have custom Forge Silicon Pipes made as the THS comes with its own 'custom' pipes to replace the OEM pipes.
All Forge hoses are 'custom' made! All you would need to know is the diameter of the connections on the THS (and the type of connection too), let Forge know, and they'll be able to make the hoses for you. Forge hoses are never an 'exact' fit - they usually require trimming to get a successful fit - a bit fiddly - but perfectly OK when done.
2: I was led to believe that 'lag' may be an issue due to the massive(!) increase in IC size what with the larger THS and Forge.
I personally don't have any lag with my Forge and S3 cooler on a K03.
It is really all relative, and a bit of a compromise. If you genuinely get plagued by heatsoak and power drop off, then a touch more lag might be worth it (and I'm sure REVO and the likes could map out the lag). But if you never actually get heatsoak on just the standard plastic GTI cooler - and just wanna upgrade for sheer vanity, then the lag will probably p!ss you off. You really and honestly need to carefully assess what heatsoak you currently get, and then what the ultimate goal of swapping the i/cs will achieve.
3: Again I could be talking BS?
Why break the habit of a lifetime . . . .
Sorry, mate, couldn't resist! :love:
Am I wrong about the Lag issue TT?
Are you K03 or K04? That might have a difference!
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Will have a search, ta
:happy2:
Might look into spacing them slightly?
That may help a little - but it is still gonna be a lot closer than a Forge. I take it you shop in Tesco! :P
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Thanks TT I am K04.
TBH I am not really intending to do it at the moment as I don't have any problems with heat soak at the moment.
I am mainly asking for the purpose of progressing the thread and if I upgrade to a hybrid K04 in the future in the like I may look into it again.
I did consider removing my Air Conditioning, Mike have you done this, TT is it worth it?
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Will have a search, ta
:happy2:
Might look into spacing them slightly?
That may help a little - but it is still gonna be a lot closer than a Forge. I take it you shop in Tesco! :P
Just thought a bit of air flow would help but yes yor right.
And this 24hour supermarket lights up my back garden it's that close...
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fk482%2Ftfsi_mike%2F6a270751.jpg&hash=dc38067b5cf403a2ba085c973eed73acce84e116)
:P
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Heat travels by three fundamental methods: conduction, convection and radiation. :nerd:
Mike, did you manage to find that old thread I did?
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This commen..t -
It is really all relative, and a bit of a compromise. If you genuinely get plagued by heatsoak and power drop off, then a touch more lag might be worth it (and I'm sure REVO and the likes could map out the lag). But if you never actually get heatsoak on just the standard plastic GTI cooler - and just wanna upgrade for sheer vanity, then the lag will probably p!ss you off. You really and honestly need to carefully assess what heatsoak you currently get, and then what the ultimate goal of swapping the i/cs will achieve.
is what plagues me as i have the S3 cooler and have thought long and hard about pairing it with the Twintercooler BUT am not sure how much I suffer from heat soak without doing any logs yet and have heard from two respected tuners about the loss of throttle response on the open road even though twintercooler may show gains on the RR...
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Heat travels by three fundamental methods: conduction, convection and radiation. :nerd:
Mike, did you manage to find that old thread I did?
Did a few searches with your name as the poster, no joy :sad1:
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This commen..t -
It is really all relative, and a bit of a compromise. If you genuinely get plagued by heatsoak and power drop off, then a touch more lag might be worth it (and I'm sure REVO and the likes could map out the lag). But if you never actually get heatsoak on just the standard plastic GTI cooler - and just wanna upgrade for sheer vanity, then the lag will probably p!ss you off. You really and honestly need to carefully assess what heatsoak you currently get, and then what the ultimate goal of swapping the i/cs will achieve.
is what plagues me as i have the S3 cooler and have thought long and hard about pairing it with the Twintercooler BUT am not sure how much I suffer from heat soak without doing any logs yet and have heard from two respected tuners about the loss of throttle response on the open road even though twintercooler may show gains on the RR...
If you did suffer from heat soak, you would probably notice it. The ECU will progressively back off the available power.
Unfortunately, a lot of people don't actually know what heat soak is - or more importantly, an increase in heat soak.
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Heat travels by three fundamental methods: conduction, convection and radiation. :nerd:
Mike, did you manage to find that old thread I did?
Did a few searches with your name as the poster, no joy :sad1:
Did you try searching on the other forum - http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?board=16.0 ???
There are eight pages from the 'advanced' search option, limiting it to just the Mk5 board! :scared: I'll see if I can tweak the search parameter . . .
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This commen..t -
It is really all relative, and a bit of a compromise. If you genuinely get plagued by heatsoak and power drop off, then a touch more lag might be worth it (and I'm sure REVO and the likes could map out the lag). But if you never actually get heatsoak on just the standard plastic GTI cooler - and just wanna upgrade for sheer vanity, then the lag will probably p!ss you off. You really and honestly need to carefully assess what heatsoak you currently get, and then what the ultimate goal of swapping the i/cs will achieve.
is what plagues me as i have the S3 cooler and have thought long and hard about pairing it with the Twintercooler BUT am not sure how much I suffer from heat soak without doing any logs yet and have heard from two respected tuners about the loss of throttle response on the open road even though twintercooler may show gains on the RR...
If you did suffer from heat soak, you would probably notice it. The ECU will progressively back off the available power.
Unfortunately, a lot of people don't actually know what heat soak is - or more importantly, an increase in heat soak.
I have the BDM CAI which is basically the same as the ITG but with more heat soak when sat in traffic as there is no shield around the filter, but the gains when on the open road should be better than the ITG in theory. TT if you are Stg 1 only how come you felt it necessary to fit the twintercooler ie surely the S3 on its own is more than up to the job?
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TT if you are Stg 1 only how come you felt it necessary to fit the twintercooler ie surely the S3 on its own is more than up to the job?
Did you read my previous posts, and those over on GolfGTIforum.co.uk ?? :confused:
1/ I basically got lots of heat soak build up before I went Stg1, which caused a drop off in performance.
2/ the OEM siting has serious compromises, which the Forge overcomes.
Read this thread (http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=93677), in full. :wink:
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TT if you are Stg 1 only how come you felt it necessary to fit the twintercooler ie surely the S3 on its own is more than up to the job?
Did you read my previous posts, and those over on GolfGTIforum.co.uk ?? :confused:
1/ I basically got lots of heat soak build up before I went Stg1, which caused a drop off in performance.
2/ the OEM siting has serious compromises, which the Forge overcomes.
Read this thread (http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=93677), in full. :wink:
will do, not been on other forum really and forgot about what you said re siting of the oem cooler