MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Modifications & Technical Area => Performance Modifications => Topic started by: liver on November 26, 2011, 11:56:21 am
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hi
had my car on the rollers yesterday and there seems to be some problems with my map
car peaks at 4k with 261bhp, then drops down to 200bhp straight away, car then progresses back upto 251bhp at the end of the rev range
it is deffo a mapping issue as the car is spot on mechanically apparently.
The map seems to either be requesting too much or not enough of either boost or fuel thus causing the massive drop when the car can't produce it
the car has a very limited power range and is very similar to a diesel like a power band
will be constructing a detailed email to bluefin over the weekend to send on monday first thing with my complaints, graphs and im also going to log the car at the weekend to help also.
Im wanting to know what groups i need to log to find out or point out the weakness in the map
would it be groups 1,2,115 and 230?
any help is greatly appreciated
Thank you
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gti or ed30? what mods you got?
have a read: http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,18519.0.html
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cheers
its a gti, mods are Evoms CAI, Milltek tbe 3" non res, bluefin stage 2 software
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sounds like same issue as mine, they tried 17maps, in te end i got all my money back and went to revo.
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cheers
its a gti, mods are Evoms CAI, Milltek tbe 3" non res, bluefin stage 2 software
sounds like same issue as mine, they tried 17maps, in te end i got all my money back and went to revo.
Same with me. They tried loads. The fuel pump and stage 2+ map improved it, but it was by no means a smooth map. Very erratic. Superchips can not map the stage 2 GTI k03 for some reason. (ignore the figures as they are fictional :grin:
Blue = stage 2
red =stage 2+
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fsimonskerton%2Fcar_pics%2Fstage2andcoderedintake003.jpg&hash=8fa1edb039e43cec055545c75194c1e6ab2db455)
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These threads have got me a little worried, I've had the bluefin stage 2+ map for a couple of months. The power has never felt that smooth or strong in third and fourth.
I don't have any means by which to log the car, so I'll have to get the car to a dyno to see if I'm having the same issues. Hard to understand how a tuning company that has been in the industry as long as Superchips can't get these maps right when other tuning companies can. I think I'd go Revo in a heartbeat , but unfortunately we don't have Revo where I live. Would GIAC or Viezu be a good alternative to Revo?
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Superchips tried their utmost to solve it for me, but never actually managed it, hence me changing to Shark Performance. Well worth the extra money i shelled out for it.
I take it your abroad(from the UK) somewhere hence your issues with mapping options. Shark do an STS handset which works the same as the bluefin handset which might solve your situation.
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,9088.0.html (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,9088.0.html)
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Thanks for the link. I'm in Western Australia so options are definitely limited. I'll look into shark performance , cheers.
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looks like it is the old blufin not been able to map stage2 looking at this
ive just done some logging so going to take a look at those tonight and send them off tomorrow
if i cn work out a format to get them in here too i will pop them up.
I will try for my money back or at least the handset re-setting
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looks like it is the old blufin not been able to map stage2 looking at this
ive just done some logging so going to take a look at those tonight and send them off tomorrow
if i cn work out a format to get them in here too i will pop them up.
I will try for my money back or at least the handset re-setting
if you have had it less than 12months handset reset is free anyway.
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Keen to hear how you get on with Superchips .
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me too, i will be contacting them at somepoint within today.
Im trying to get all my rolling road runs emailed to me so i can send them on aswell
I will keep you posted.
Ive had the handset nearly 2 years unfortunatly
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email has been sent with logs and the graph attached
lets await the response
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Baring in mind anyone reading this that they are very good at responding and indeed trying to resolve the issue, stage one is usually a very good map. Only going into stage 2 and above issues appear on SOME cars.
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Are there people you know of with stage 2+ without these issues?
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stage 2+ solved alot of the issues on mine, but it was by no means smooth. It was also slower than a stage 2 Shark vRS without the fuel pump or intake
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i agree there customer services and after care is second to none.
im having some problems with my work emails i think there will be an email waiting once i get them up and working again
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Hi Mark
I’m sorry that you’re having issues, I have checked the database and can see that you have been running this current map since May, I’m sure that you would have noticed back when you first installed the updated map if this issue was occurring, please log the air flow reading as this type of symptom is caused by a faulty airflow sensor, I also notice that you have a induction kit fitted, and these can cause the airflow meter get contaminated. If the airflow meter is faulty these do not flag a fault in the ECU, this is because the deteriorate over time.
Regards
Dave
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Tbh I never noticed mine was bad until I drove someone else.
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Morning,
Sorry I was having trouble with my emails and could not receive any so I have only just received your message this morning, I will log the air flow reading tonight, however I am not convinced that this will indicate any problems. The car is a daily driver to due to this very rarely goes above 4k revs with my commute hence the reason this has not flagged up sooner other than data logging and a rolling road session. Do the logs indicate any problems?
Regards,
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ive done to some graphs to compare actual and specified boost and rail pressure for the three logs i did, ive got them in pdf and word but not sure hows best to put them up
any help is greatly appreciated
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You could use the add PDF option or take a screenshot of them while open and add as a picture.
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(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg404.imageshack.us%2Fimg404%2F7130%2Fimg0917lb.jpg&hash=c258927dca7ab9ab2934ca774e39a1c31da1f904)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg94.imageshack.us%2Fimg94%2F3559%2Fimg0916ol.jpg&hash=706e4842dd4c2b182ee9f57b2d873187f82156dd)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg198.imageshack.us%2Fimg198%2F8818%2Fimg0915xa.jpg&hash=e6cd22431790d35b0d5debd913bf964f16d3e4da)
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Nice rail pressure. :surprised:
What's up with the revs scale?
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i know, its terrible isnt it,
what do you think could be causing this? I can send my logs to anyone if they are good at understanding them, i havnt got a clue to be honest, have sent and asked bluefin to inspect but they havnt got back to me with regards to the logs.
not sure on the scale either
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(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg337.imageshack.us%2Fimg337%2F5735%2Fl6lvr.jpg&hash=ff0cc65e9349e746e043660e9098395b539efbb4)
the graph, missing the last 261bhp run but you get the idea of the problems
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what else would be good to log with air flow to help get somewhere with bluefin?
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my logs
Log1, run 1
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg231.imageshack.us%2Fimg231%2F7117%2Flog1run1.jpg&hash=e533d0057b79b8e4c2ffa33ac615095089e36a16)
Log1, run 2
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg221.imageshack.us%2Fimg221%2F9683%2Flog1run2.jpg&hash=0f941000250080524945bafd0a95066fd276a498)
Log1, run 3
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg254.imageshack.us%2Fimg254%2F6041%2Flog1run3.jpg&hash=9a6d2c6ef927a34ef0589e939931f7bc8c3580b0)
Log 2, run 1
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg525.imageshack.us%2Fimg525%2F603%2Flog2run1.jpg&hash=d7c9f7644174b44799f6be4bccd8e813b237efc6)
Log 2, run 2
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg812.imageshack.us%2Fimg812%2F7699%2Flog2run2.jpg&hash=8df073a62fa090a7028d3732959478ca93be0927)
If anyone can help me and point me in the right direction with any problems they may see it would be greatly appreciated.
Im just trying to build a strong enough case to show that the problem is not with my car but actually with the map
but im not very good with actually reading the info i have
cheers
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OK.... easy way to prove that its the map.
Remove the Map with your Blufin box. Re-log the MAF airflow... and repost the values. Its easy to see that your current MAF figures are taking a big hit at 4500rpm.
Rich
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Looking at your rail pressure plots, when was the last time you checked you cam follower?
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I will remove the bluefin tomorrow and relog, cheers thats a great idea
The cam follower was replaced around a month ago
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No probs... fingers crossed that you get a normal MAF log, and its not your car. (i suspect your car is absolutely fine)
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Will i need to log the car with both the different groups of measuring blocks or will one notify better than the other?
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Will i need to log the car with both the different groups of measuring blocks or will one notify better than the other?
Just log the MAF (Intake Air g/s)
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The biggest issue on mine was with the fueling, with similar logs to your rail pressure. Make sure you log fuel rail pressures on stock settings
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^^ good idea. :happy2:
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Thats fine i shall try and get the car back to standard form at work today and then log the car tonight
i will log the air flow, fuel rail pressure and boost with the revs to give a good indication of the differences
fingers crossed its the software.
I have forwarded on the second set of logs to Dave this morning and hopefully today he'll get back to me
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another reply
Morning Mark
On the first log that you have sent me we have noticed that you Group 230 actual rail pressure falls at 3280 rpm, the specified remains at 109.4 BAR, this is causing the ECU to lower the boost pressures and power figures for safety reasons.
This will probably not happen when you return the car so the factory map as the fuel demand is not as high, but the problem is in the engine not on the map.
Regards
Dave
I had noticed this looking at the graphs that it was the actual that was struggling and not the specified which im guessing is what the map asks for.
Dave thinks the issue will either be with the pump itself or the lobe on the cam shaft wearing, if you have an early cam shaft and an aftermarket pump, the cam shaft lobe will wear. Would people agree with this.
The pump is a standard pump with a new cam follower a month ago so can't see this been a problem
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Did you ever look at your low fuel pressure sensor that's on the hpfp as the early versions are known to fail...
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no i didnt, i just changed the cam follower, how would i go about checking this?
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car has the standard map on and everything runs fine and meets all requirements as seen below,
i just dont understand why it is fuel cutting with the stage 2 software on, when the specified rail pressure stages constant but the actual pressure drops hmmmm
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg847.imageshack.us%2Fimg847%2F2757%2Fstandardboost.jpg&hash=2e9f6228b83fd4ca80fa3ebfc9595a1f35a22b38)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg405.imageshack.us%2Fimg405%2F1681%2Fstandardrailpressure.jpg&hash=c57f3c9b367d433e2cff960322121448ec054c17)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg440.imageshack.us%2Fimg440%2F4452%2Fstandardlogs.jpg&hash=5dfcdf21da5226edef25cce1b501fa6604b376d6)
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^^ MAF figures are bang on!
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I know, maf figures, rail pressure figures and boost are all spot on
Dave at bluefin said they would be he claimed this because the fuel pump isnt requesting as much fuel or under as much pressure
I really am lost as to wether its the car or the software
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Surely its requesting 110 bar stock and on stg2?
But its only getting fuel cuts on when using stg2 software?
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yeah very true PDT i hadnt noticed that on both standard and on the stage two map the specified rail pressure is the same at 109.4
so surely its got to be the software thats at fault and not the car
would you suggest looking at the logs etc that it is the software at fault and not the car PDT?
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Hi mark
we can set the bluefin to the previous stage 1 file to prove this if you require, please let me know you bluefin serial number
I didn’t get the standard cars logs with your last email
The reason why the car will underperform with the modified map loaded is because the car runs a higher boost pressure with the mod map, this in turn requires a higher volume of fuel which the pump is struggling to maintain.
Regards
Dave
is this correct could this be the issue? or are they just trying to talk there way out of the situation?
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SaintSteve runs Stage 2 on his ED30 with a standard fuel pump... can't see it being an issue personally!
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Maybe the pump is dying ?
Have a go with stage 1 and see the difference ?
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yeah they are suggesting its a problem with my fuel pump of some sort. Ive checked the car for fault codes and nothing comes up.
Im gonna log stage 1 tonight to see if the problem is there too, if it is then there must be a fault if not i dont think they can argue its the car at fault.
how can i determine if the fuel pump is on its way out or has a problem?
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yeah they are suggesting its a problem with my fuel pump of some sort. Ive checked the car for fault codes and nothing comes up.
According to your own logs with the 'map on' you have a fuel cut
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg404.imageshack.us%2Fimg404%2F7130%2Fimg0917lb.jpg&hash=c258927dca7ab9ab2934ca774e39a1c31da1f904)
When did you last change your fuel filter? I would also log block 103 for the low-side feed pressure from the tank. It should be around 5 bar.
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yeah this is whats worrying me now after i produced those graphs that there is something wrong with the car,
im puttin stage 1 back on my handset at the minute thn i will relog and also log blocks 103
im not sure it had a full service cambelt and waterpump etc in march
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put back to standard and sell it :chicken: n buy another :evilgrin:
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this has gone through my head,
or car back to standard and sell all bits and just put the money in the bank
just annoying always seem to be something lately
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I get issues with stock pump on stg2, especially with intake fitted. Usually I will reduce boost and add timing and this solves the issue.
Its caused by the map, but its the car that cant cope with the fuel demand so not really a fault with the map. Uprated hpfp should be the next step, or ask for a change to the map so that the stock pump can cope with the demands.
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Dave - could he put the standard intake back on, reducing the extra air flow and therefore not running out of fuel?
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Its a possibility, give it a try :)
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Or get a REVO map and linear throttle file?
*ducks for cover*
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I had a very similar issue with my car and it was highlighted at the recent JKM Rolling Road day. Logs were dreadful!
Car ran at 237bhp on stage one (viezu) map - noticeable dip in power and torque curves mid way through rev range. Used to occasionally get fuel cuts whilst accelerating from 60mph in 5th or 6th
Old map removed, logs were checked by JKM and were all good. Dash of Revo and ITG added and 255bhp on the resulting power run and a really smooth curve. Between 2-3k there is now approx 30bhp/40lbft more than on the previous map and it seems to pull so much harder at any rpm.
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It's all in the mapping :wink: but you can't really use Revo as a fair like for like comparison to your previous map Gareth.
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It's all in the mapping :wink: but you can't really use Revo as a fair like for like comparison to your previous map Gareth.
Cheers Dave :happy2: - you are correct, didn't realise how 'power happy' my post seems until a re-read.
I kinda wish that a run was made with just a revo map to see the real difference.
I guess that my point was more that (as you've just stated and know from experience), it really is all in the mapping, and that experiencing fuel cuts using one tuner's map may not always mean that something is wrong with the car. In my case, there was far too much fuel requested early in the rev range. You can practically see the point on the RR graph where the car says 'whoah there, you're asking a bit much of me, time to back off....'
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I will throw this into the debate but if you want to wring everything out of your TFSI go Revo every time.
If you just want a map that makes your car go faster than stock but is still quite conservative then stick with Superchips/Bluefin.
They can do it however their standard maps don't have the headroom for extras like intakes unless they are told beforehand.
Just my 2p worth. :smiley:
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I will throw this into the debate but if you want to wring everything out of your TFSI go Revo every time.:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm5.static.flickr.com%2F4112%2F5044911848_f01b0a8b11.jpg&hash=fbc9bf51d7e674712998e70ebb1523cdd12128a5)
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^^^^ LOL
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:signLOL:
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put the stage one map on the car and log this as told by bluefin as they said they would expect the rail pressure to be the same as the stage 2 map
heres the logs and graphs
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg843.imageshack.us%2Fimg843%2F2296%2Fstage1logs.jpg&hash=414ef79f7e47b0d1d5e469eaa730819640e709b0)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg802.imageshack.us%2Fimg802%2F1333%2Fstage1railpressure.jpg&hash=e37136d6d554c156b58bf8395db073f262e935d9)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg856.imageshack.us%2Fimg856%2F4638%2Fstage1boost.jpg&hash=d313674549ed2cb5bc0b4432e79eadfeff6a3a29)
peoples thoughts on this??
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Seems to be making health power on stage one!
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my opinion, do as i did, theres an offer on revo at the moment, take it as a sign and get it revo'd
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I know i think this is the way im going to go, i just want to try and get some money back for the hassel and fact its not right and all ive had is hassel as im already on my 3rd stage2 map or at least get the handset reset for free so i can get some money towards the revo
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I know i think this is the way im going to go, i just want to try and get some money back for the hassel and fact its not right and all ive had is hassel as im already on my 3rd stage2 map or at least get the handset reset for free so i can get some money towards the revo
I think the best your going to get is the £50 back for going to stage 2, But you dont get unless you try!
I suppose they advertise the ability to take your car to stage 2 so thats one of the reasons you went with them, you could play that its their fault you now have to move to another provider. Then if they blame your car say if revo runs ok will they pay up?
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in an ideal world i would love the money back but been realistic im not going to get this
if i could get the £50 upgrade fee back and get the handset reset i would be over the moon, just got to wait and see, ive emailed the lastest logs and asked what they suggest is the next move
everyones help has been greatly appreciated
hopefully this can be resolved, bluefin have been helpful and there customer servie is top notch, it just seems at the minute there stage 2 software doesnt match this.
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Option 2
Ask superchips to carry out a mapping session at their HQ to solve the issue
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I stated quite early on to then that this was not possible due to how far away from them i am.im up in wakefield near leeds.one of the reasons i picked bluefin was the fact that i wouldnt need to travel to map the car etc and is one of there selling points
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One of the reasons to use a local tuner. :wink:
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This is very true PDT, havnt heard back from bluefin since half 9 but i understand they are very busy so await there resoonse patiently.
Out of intrest where are you based pdt?
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so to summarise
the car as standard
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg847.imageshack.us%2Fimg847%2F2757%2Fstandardboost.jpg&hash=2e9f6228b83fd4ca80fa3ebfc9595a1f35a22b38)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg405.imageshack.us%2Fimg405%2F1681%2Fstandardrailpressure.jpg&hash=c57f3c9b367d433e2cff960322121448ec054c17)
the car at stage 1
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg856.imageshack.us%2Fimg856%2F4638%2Fstage1boost.jpg&hash=d313674549ed2cb5bc0b4432e79eadfeff6a3a29)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg802.imageshack.us%2Fimg802%2F1333%2Fstage1railpressure.jpg&hash=e37136d6d554c156b58bf8395db073f262e935d9)
the car at stage 2
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg198.imageshack.us%2Fimg198%2F8818%2Fimg0915xa.jpg&hash=e6cd22431790d35b0d5debd913bf964f16d3e4da)
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Thats a fuel cut issue for sure. PDT is in the North East, near Sunderland.
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Any updates?
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They havnt replied to my emails since friday which is very unusual for bluefin.
I shall contact them today and see how it goes
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I find it's always better to phone them.
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they are prepared to refund the stage 2 upgrade but not reset the handset so far
anyone got any advice how i can argue with them to get the handset for free??
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tried arguing my case with the handset re-set but they wern't having any of it, tbh i wasnt expecting it as i bought the unit 2nd hand
should hear back tomorrow on how much to reset the handset as the guy who deals with this is out of the office today
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It's about 180quid IIRC!
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how much did you sell yours for rich??
is it worth resetting or just sell it needing the reset
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I didn't ever have one. Just remember it being about that much when I enquired about it, as I was going to one from a friend.
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iirc i sold mine for around £75 but it hadnt been reset.
Even with the reset and the £75 its still a saving on the normal price
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what do you reckon they are worth reset?
around £300??
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Id say thats a fair price. They are just over 400 new. :happy2:
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£204.69 for reset
what the fudge
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£204.69 for reset
what the fudge
:stupid:
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i dont know where they pick these figures from
would be £325.70 if i dont put the car back on the standard map
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i dont know where they pick these figures from
would be £325.70 if i dont put the car back on the standard map
Thats to stop people buying the unit, flashing the ECU and then returning the box or selling it on.