MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Modifications & Technical Area => Performance Modifications => Topic started by: rich83 on December 03, 2011, 02:15:56 am
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.... no joke!
http://www.forgemotorsport.com/content.asp?inc=product&cat=260310&product=FMIND13
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Looks good and more in my kind of budget! :smiley:
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Similar to the ITG.
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£230 for the mk5 FSI k03 & k04... mmm tempted
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£230 for the mk5 FSI k03 & k04... mmm tempted
Me too.... providing that the pipe work is the same diameter as the Twintake, i dont see any reason why you'd want to get the Twintake.
Maybe my grasp of flow dynamics is wrong, but if you have a 3" intake pipe, even if you stick 13 filters on a branch section the flow will be the same. :confused:
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Would be interesting to see a dyno plot Vs a twintake on same car..
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Would be interesting to see a dyno plot Vs a twintake on same car..
Providing the pipework is the same someone could do this by just blocking the 2nd air filter.
Ive emailed forge.... :popcornsoda:
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It looks to be the same size to me..
You could just block off one of the filters on a twintake but I dont see the point if you already have a twintake....
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I meant for testing purposes. :happy2:
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:chicken:
In that case, yes :signLOL:
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:signLOL:
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:rolleye:
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I wonder if its any easier to keep the engine cover with only 1 filter?
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Probably not mate
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Quote from Forge email....
"Richard, the Wintake is only available to the US market i’m afraid, and is a cut down version of the Twintake we sell here, in terms of both cost and performance."
:stupid:
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Love the video clip on that page. The engine still sounds sh*t and there's barely any intake sound.
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Quote from Forge email....
"Richard, the Wintake is only available to the US market i’m afraid, and is a cut down version of the Twintake we sell here, in terms of both cost and performance."
:stupid:
I cant see how performance will be affected, only so much air can flow through the pipe whether it has one or two filters?
I think (unless proven wrong by some independant rolling road reports) that the reply given is a standard "protect our UK sales on the more expensive unit", maybe the Yanks are not fooled as easily as us with 2 shiny carbon bits :happy2:
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Love the video clip on that page. The engine still sounds sh*t and there's barely any intake sound.
The 2.0 TFSI sound like crap what ever you do to it. :-p
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^^^^
On this question of 'how-on-earth-does-a-Twintake-work-to-any-advantage?' it's been answered already and lots of times in various car forums around the world. As I understand it from the Forge horse's mouth, they thoroughly tested twin against single and there is a significant performance advantage with the Twintake. I explained it in my Twintake review:
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,9988.0.html <-- Read under TWO INLETS + TWO FILTERS and REDUCING RESTRICTIONS
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Ta Robin... i did read that, after writing this post.
Unless I see some rolling road evidence, i remain to be sceptical.
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You might draw the analogy that by having less draw from one filter, less air particles have to force their way through that filter, so it's like opening a new checkout in a grocery store.
This is true... but if there is only one 'single person exit' door to exit the shop, regardless of how many tills you open the thru-put will remain the same. I can't imagine that having the 2 filters gives any noticeable real world increase in power.
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^^^^
Whereas a certain amount of scepticism is sensible until you feel convinced in your own mind, Rich, IIRC I did see some dyno plots posted across the pond some time ago and the Twintake clearly delivered more bhp. It would take me too long to find again. Perhaps Forge themselves would explain if you give them a call - They're straightforward and not into hard selling.
One question might be whether the current WINtake version performs better than the version Forge compared with their TWINtake when they were developing it.
Unfortunately if for some unjustifiable reason the WINtake is only available in the good old U S of A :rolleye: it's all a bit academic but there's a history of some Forge UK vs Forge USA differences of opinion which don't help us the consumer.
[sent you an EeeeeWeeeeeee PM]
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Yeah but "Only US market" items are easy to get across the pond and ship over for the sake of £25.
I like Rich will remain sceptical about it until dyno results are seen (on current wintake vs current twintake), as the price diff is quite large and the possible HP difference nominal?.
And the ease of fitting and price difference would also be put into consideration too, bearing in mind that the $360USD (£240) price is RRP (so Likely to available for $300 or £200, maybe less) compared to Twintake of £330(ish), also makes a difference.
Again im sure Forge are not likely to pull wool over tuners eyes, but realistically are the figures on it going to be that different?
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Yeah but "Only US market" items are easy to get across the pond and ship over for the sake of £25.
I like Rich will remain sceptical about it until dyno results are seen (on current wintake vs current twintake), as the price diff is quite large and the possible HP difference nominal?.
My thoughts exactly.
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And the ease of fitting and price difference would also be put into consideration too, bearing in mind that the $360USD (£240) price is RRP (so Likely to available for $300 or £200, maybe less) compared to Twintake of £330(ish), also makes a difference.
Again im sure Forge are not likely to pull wool over tuners eyes, but realistically are the figures on it going to be that different?
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^^^^
I think I'm gonna contact Forge and ask them to comment on the difference.
The TWINtake is extremely easy to install, so no significant difference there.
Yeah but "Only US market" items are easy to get across the pond and ship over for the sake of £25.
....Hmm, US export tax plus vat plus shipping costs for only £25? Plus all the hassle and delays once it lands in the UK. To be avoided in my experience. But I'm describing the worst real-world scenario.
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.
Forge UK say that this "WINtake" system was developed in their USA branch in response to a demand for a single filter intake system where customers wanted a performance intake that is not quite so expensive as the Twintake system.
Forge UK understand that the WINtake achieves around 10 bhp gains.
Over here in the UK, I think we (us forumites etc) have independently shown that the TWINtake gains 15-20 bhp. So you takes yer pick and pays yer money. Obviously ALL the claims of bhp gains by ALL the intake manufacturers are subject to individual cars and their particular performance mods. In my opinion, back-to-back plots with same car on same dyno on same session is the only way to obtain accurate comparisons. But +10bhp vs +17bhp seems a fair yardstick. The rest is how deep your pockets are or how relaxed your missus is about such spending.
Will the WINtake become available on this side of the pond? - I have no idea, and doubt whether Forge UK have decided for certain at this stage.
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I thought this was developed due to certain cars with the 2.0T having some components which would prevent the side intake fitting.
Like I say, I'll need to see hard evidence robin. :-)
According to forge it won't be available over here, and they don't have a spare one knocking around either, because I asked. :-/
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Well i've done as much as I can to help get answers - I didn't know about the side fitting but my not knowing doesn't mean it isn't so.
Ooops! I just received this email from Forge USA:
"What exactly is the specific question being asked?
While the TWINtake with the dual filter canisters was developed first, it can easily be considered a higher end premium product, not only from it's price point, but also in terms of the performance improvement it provides, as you can attest.
As is noted, the single canister WINtake setup was originally developed for the B6 Passat automatic application which does not allow for the fitment of the second canister due to the inclusion of a large remote secondary transmission cooler. There only exists enough space for the single forward facing canister. http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2699/4304275983_3a76e8c3d4_b.jpg
It was immediately realized, however, that this newly simplified setup could be adapted to all other FSI and TSI applications as an intermediate/entry level solution to the TWINtake. This setup has been dyno proven to provide as much as 10 whp improvement. A lower margin of improvement than the TWINtake no doubt, but still a tangible result over the stock airbox.
The testing was done back to back to back on a Stage 2++ tuned Audi A3. The car was never removed from the dyno between runs. (25+ PSI with a Forge actuator and a Stage 2+ Revo tune)
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2764/4310171546_b34005f9e9_o.png
http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4071/4309435531_0827080362_o.png
If someone doesn't like the builkiness of the TWINtake, or it is too far outside their budget, or they won't be tuning their vehicle to a level that demands the volume of airflow that the TWINtake can provide, the WINtake is the entry level solution that will still show a measurable gain over stock
The TWINtake shows more improvement at higher levels of tune because it has another filter (further reduced restriction) so it offer more headroom for airflow, assuming the application demands it."
Am off now, FINALLY!, to get lost in Logic, EeeWee-ing and editing MIDI. :happy2:
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^^^^
....Hmm, US export tax plus vat plus shipping costs for only £25? Plus all the hassle and delays once it lands in the UK. To be avoided in my experience. But I'm describing the worst real-world scenario.
There are no US Export costs (and US residents dont pay Import costs either for items entering USA, I know this As I deal regularly with suppliers in USA for my own business).
The only costs that would be incurred are shipping charges (around £25 likely) and UK VAT, not all packages entering UK get charged its luck of the draw tbh.
If you do get charged it would be 20% of value stated on package plus release fee of £8, if you dont get charged then £0 added.
Packages valued under £18 are not charged and packages valued under £36 decalred as gifts are not charged either. Great if you buy sall items from us at £15, not so great if your buying £2-3K worth of stuff at a time :sad1:
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I appreciate it robin... :-)
It's a shame because these would definitely sell over here.
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I appreciate it robin... But I'm a 'I'll have to see it to believe it' person.
It's a shame because these would definitely sell over here.
Agreed :congrats:
Grey/Parallel imports anyone? :grin: (Not a suggestion, just a joke, dont want to be upsetting forge :happy2:)
Forge are offering 20% off retail on the Wintake until December 31st So thats around £192...., add £25 for shipping and £48 in VAT/charges (if your unlucky) and thats £265 as opposed to £330ish.
http://www.golfmk6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28546
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^^^^
....Hmm, US export tax plus vat plus shipping costs for only £25? Plus all the hassle and delays once it lands in the UK. To be avoided in my experience. But I'm describing the worst real-world scenario.
There are no US Export costs (and US residents dont pay Import costs either for items entering USA, I know this As I deal regularly with suppliers in USA for my own business).
The only costs that would be incurred are shipping charges (around £25 likely) and UK VAT, not all packages entering UK get charged its luck of the draw tbh.
If you do get charged it would be 20% of value stated on package plus release fee of £8, if you dont get charged then £0 added.
Packages valued under £18 are not charged and packages valued under £36 decalred as gifts are not charged either. Great if you buy sall items from us at £15, not so great if your buying £2-3K worth of stuff at a time :sad1:
....No US export tax anymore if shipping out of US to an individual as opposed to supplying to an overseas business? When did that change?
It might be the luck of the draw on UK import taxes but you have to allow for the possibility and even packages marked as gifts can be checked and not accepted as such. Also, some US exporters refuse to mark as gifts because of their insurance ramifications. Add to say £25 shipping, vat at 20% plus £8 and it soon mounts up even if the original only costs double figures.
My point is that it's necessary to consider the possible real-world costs when claiming that importing from a non EC country is cheap, which I think you were doing re the WINtake. But we are somewhat off topic.
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Grey/Parallel imports anyone? :grin: (Not a suggestion, just a joke, dont want to be upsetting forge :happy2:)
Forge are offering 20% off retail on the Wintake until December 31st So thats around £192...., add £25 for shipping and £48 in VAT/charges (if your unlucky) and thats £265 as opposed to £330ish.
http://www.golfmk6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28546
....You seem to be completely missing the point that £330 minus £265, using your figures, potentially represents a significant difference in performance. Folks don't buy mods based on price alone.
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Hi Robin, well I have been ordering out of the USA for nearly 7 years and there are NO export taxes and have not been in that time, only taxes into UK (VAT) and very occasionally import tax which can be between 7-9% although never from USA on what my business entails, only ever charged it seems from NON EU member states in Europe (Switzerland is one for sure).
True on Packages marked as Gifts, I once had a charge for £64 for an item valued at £14.56, I contacted them with details and they cleared it immediately as it was their error.
I was not implying importing is cheap in general, its not unless your importing specific items, large volumes or non dutiable items (printed matter etc) but importing the wintake (the only option available should those want it as its not available to Uk market), is easily possible.
Typically items in Uk at say £100 would in USA be $100USD (at 1.5 rough conversion rate that represents a saving of £34, even add to that the VAT at 20%, still saves you 20%, a saving not to be sniffed at in these tough economic times (and dont go down the route of not helping UK economy by buying overseas lol, its our pockets at the end of the day lol).
Those not seeking out and out performance might prefer a "Loss" in power (although It's not really a loss if you never had it :wink:) and might prefer the £65 in their pocket (Minimum £65 or possibly more depandant on price paid and duty paid!), given the fact there is less pipework and less components its also going to be easier to fit (or for those not technically minded or gifted with tools) and especcially cheaper to have fitted due to less components.