MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: candy turbo on April 18, 2009, 06:58:56 pm
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took my wheels off today for a bit of routine cleaning to find this ......
(http://)(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fn374%2Fcandyturbo_2008%2FDSCF1652.jpg&hash=9690d59da50a408abc816a78f77d062447e7106c)
took the other side off to find that one the same ......
(http://)(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fn374%2Fcandyturbo_2008%2FDSCF1653.jpg&hash=b130820c9a2e350b96ff8bae6f9fc41934750a0f)
these are not cheap versions they are FK made in germany , they have only done about 300 miles on the car as i dont use it that much and i drive it with care , a few on here expressed concern about fitting spacers maybe you were right !!!
ill be contacting the supplier monday but i wont be wanting a replacement set !!!!!!!!!!!!
those of you who have these fitted (especially if to drive hard ) worth checking them!!!!!
(http://)(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fn374%2Fcandyturbo_2008%2FDSCF1654.jpg&hash=e2eb6f96b6e9f80185e095e5620918492d7430d0)
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I took the ones the Wheelman (Ben) supplied me a few weeks ago after about 1k and they were perfect. Don't be put off mate, the hub ring does look very thin! :scared:
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not really a safty issue here the wheel was still securely fitted but dont think ill want any more ! the ring has to be thin to enable it to do what it has to do i suppose :surprised:
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not really a safty issue here the wheel was still securely fitted but dont think ill want any more ! the ring has to be thin to enable it to do what it has to do i suppose :surprised:
I'll have a look at mine tomorrow as Im sure there a bit more substantial than that! Hopefully Ben will be along to give his opinion.
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getting married in 2 weeks so soon as back from honeymoon will be getting eibach springs fitted to make up for lost spacers!!!!
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wanted rr to read this thread !!!!!!!!!!
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thats shocking, and it is a safety issue, the wheel bolts hold the wheel in place but the hub ring does take some of the load. Like Greenhouse says the rings do look thin, but just a thought, are they deffo the correct fitment, if not maybe there has been some excessive movement, just a thought.
I ran H&R spacers for 2000miles with no issues on the S3, and I don't hang about, I would deffo be getting on to the supplier and its just lucky you cleaned your wheels, hope you get a result :happy2:
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:surprised: that's bad mate defo never fitting them to mine
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That is shocking. :scared:
I've been debating rear spacers, but I think I'll give it a miss :scared: :scared:
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thats shocking, and it is a safety issue, the wheel bolts hold the wheel in place but the hub ring does take some of the load. Like Greenhouse says the rings do look thin, but just a thought, are they deffo the correct fitment, if not maybe there has been some excessive movement, just a thought.
I ran H&R spacers for 2000miles with no issues on the S3, and I don't hang about, I would deffo be getting on to the supplier and its just lucky you cleaned your wheels, hope you get a result :happy2:
the spacers were a really snug fit , when you think about it cause the spacer is only 10mm the part when the ring meets the spacer can only be so thick cause the original hubsticks out 8 mm so you only have 2 mm max which of alloy is not very strong !!! any one any idea what as caused them to to do this ? all bolts were tight to correct torque (i always use my torque wrench ) so i dont really understand whats gone wrong :confused: :confused:
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WOW!
That's shocking and quite worrying. I put 30k on a set of 10mm FK spacers, he only issues I had was with them sticking in the alloys. Luckily I don't feel the need to have them again.
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I've heard a lot of horror stories invoving spacers. Avoid....
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wanted rr to read this thread !!!!!!!!!!
....Sorry to miss this thread, Ian.
I don't have any direct experience myself of using spacers but one or two or three extremely experienced car builders I know have advised me against it. Using spacers doesn't guarantee you'll have a problem, but there's clearly a degree of risk.
Only 2,000 miles is insufficient to prove them being trouble-free. Ben's 30k miles is much more realistic as a test.
For what it's worth, my advice is never to do such a mod just for looks but to only do it for very good functional reasons and take advice from a professional rather than a guy on an internet car forum (me included!).
:happy2:
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I've had the H&R hubcentric spacers on my car for about 16 months now. Car has done about 18k miles with them on, 2 track days and several spirited runs over the North Yorkshire Moors with no issues.
Fortunately I do get the wheels off my car frequently for cleaning etc and well deffo be inspecting the hub element more closely for any sign of failng.
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Its never good to see anything fail on a car, particulary an item that has been fitted as an aftermarket upgrade. Spacers are definatly not my field of expertise (if i even have a field of expertise :ashamed:) I will however be sending these pioctures to the compant that has produced my spacers to see if they can throw any specialist information my way about the possible cause / likelyness of this happening.
Although it is unlikely to make a wheel fall off, im glad that you have spotted this and avoided and possible failure to such an important aspect of the car.
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For these to have failed, there must have been some movement.
I am not suggesting that you didn't have the wheels tight, the movement i refer to, is the alloy flexing with the fluctating loads on the wheel and eventually fatigue cracks set in (much the same if you constanly bend a piece of metal) and it reaches its fatigue life, and fractures.
Plain and simple. I think you make a good point as to the thickness of the spigot being only 2 mm, not a great deal considering the loading. Another concern of mine, is dis-similar metal corrosion setting in, hence not being able to remove them from the wheels.
They may look good, but their fitment does carry risks.
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^^^^
Confirms more or less what I've been advised - Using them definitely carries risks.
The only way around such risks might be to fit new spacers after every trackday or after just a few hundred miles.
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^^^^
Confirms more or less what I've been advised - Using them definitely carries risks.
The only way around such risks might be to fit new spacers after every trackday or after just a few hundred miles.
There is a small risk - though this is the first failure i've seen/heard about. I think replacing them every couple of hundred miles is a bit of a knee jerk reaction.... not to say bl00dy expensive :laugh:
The H&R one's seem very well engineered - in fact I have a spare set, will take a pic and post what the 'hub' element is like on them for reference against the OP's spacers.
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^^^^
Of course it's expensive to regularly replace them and that's why motorsport is expensive because parts get regularly replaced before they fail.
The risk may indeed be small, but it's definitely a risk, otherwise this thread wouldn't exist.
It's up to the individual what risks they are happy to take.
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Here you go....
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fjamiekip%2FRandom_stuff%2FP1020693.jpg&hash=165ec5df98d922e8ea01552bc65fc7d9719760fa)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fjamiekip%2FRandom_stuff%2FP1020694.jpg&hash=7e288d90d5db9654c12bdb5355e3c15e43d2a8f2)
These were on my car for about 12k miles - no signs of damage or cracking
:happy2:
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^^^^
Of course it's expensive to regularly replace them and that's why motorsport is expensive because parts get regularly replaced before they fail.
The risk may indeed be small, but it's definitely a risk, otherwise this thread wouldn't exist.
It's up to the individual what risks they are happy to take.
Personally, I think the risk is what you buy. As always, you get what you pay for!
I've seen all sorts of spacers advertised and some look pretty cheap.
As mentioned, the H&Rs seem a sound engineered piece of kit adn have not caused me any problems.
There is a risk with any modified part - remaps, exhausts, intakes etc, etc, etc
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What risk? :confused:
The damage to the OP's spacer wouldn't have made any difference other than maybe a small vibration at high speed! Let's not get too over excited here. The wheel bolts are more than capable of keeping them in place, they have no where to go! I think the point that needs to be made he is more to do with a failure of one manufacturers part and not to now label all spacers risky/dangerous! :confused:
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^^^^^I agree^^^^^
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Nathan, I agree.
The OP spacers may not have been made of fairly durable material. An Audi S3 (correct me if I am wrong) has Alloy wishbones. Many aircraft have alloy frames. Longerons and stringers, which are designed to flex with load, it is part of the way Loads are transferred.
I think that the material spec used in the Op post, may have been an inferior. An alloy wheel is designed to deform slightly, to absorb loadings that are not absorbed by the tyre. But when something you fit is allowed to flex at a lower stress level, ie the spacer, then this will happen.
The load will always find the easiet and path of least resistance. when you fit spacers you increase the leverage loads invoalved at the whell bearing, something you can not get away from, but be careful and inspect your spacers when you remove the wheels.
All it takes is a stress raiser be machined into the spacer profile, and this will happen. by this i mean the inner face is machined with a very sharp tool, all the way to the horizintal face of the spigot, this will creat a very sharp corner, and an immediate path for the loads to create havoc.
But i still think that the thin wall has allowed flex, and a lower durability material has fractured.
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FK are very hit and miss with the quality of their products, I'd trust H&R or Eibach, but never FK.
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Buy the best you can afford. Plain and simple. and inspect at a regular interval.
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Nathan, I agree.
The OP spacers may not have been made of fairly durable material. An Audi S3 (correct me if I am wrong) has Alloy wishbones. Many aircraft have alloy frames. Longerons and stringers, which are designed to flex with load, it is part of the way Loads are transferred.
I think that the material spec used in the Op post, may have been an inferior. An alloy wheel is designed to deform slightly, to absorb loadings that are not absorbed by the tyre. But when something you fit is allowed to flex at a lower stress level, ie the spacer, then this will happen.
The load will always find the easiet and path of least resistance. when you fit spacers you increase the leverage loads invoalved at the whell bearing, something you can not get away from, but be careful and inspect your spacers when you remove the wheels.
All it takes is a stress raiser be machined into the spacer profile, and this will happen. by this i mean the inner face is machined with a very sharp tool, all the way to the horizintal face of the spigot, this will creat a very sharp corner, and an immediate path for the loads to create havoc.
I noticed the difference in the radius at the foot of the spigot, like stoke points out that sharp radius, or complete lack of radius will create a potential weak spot, stoke will back me up here I'm sure, you never see a sharp edge like that on any aircraft structure, everything has a smooth radius to prevent this sort of thing
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A load path in an aircraft is designed to be a gradual transfer and sharing of load, ie no sudden load direction changes. Hence nice radius frames and fittings. The slightest damage caused by a slip with a spanner, a slight dent, a slight gouge with a screwdriver will afffect this path, and you have created a stress raiser and subsequent variation in load paths. Hence overloading of the material.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress_concentration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress_concentration)
ps Gaz I agree!
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The spacer is obviously a stress critical component and so it's essential to know you have chosen the best product and probably to include consideration of what brake kit you have fitted too.
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^^^^^I agree^^^^^
I agree too...
... I'm a fan of spacers... good for the stance of the car and I also notice a negative difference in cornering performance when ever I have removed them :happy2:
Robin - what have the brakes got to do with the purchasing decision?
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i have to agree the h&r ones do look slightly better machined , i showed them to a mate who s an engineering boff today and the only thing he could come up with is that the holes for the bolts are a few mm bigger than the bolts so a certain amount of rotational movement could have been possible !!! any way they are being sent back to venom tomorrow wh said they will send me a replacement set but i said i dont want any more so ill wait to hear what they have to say when they ve recieved them ! :rolleye:
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^^^^^I agree^^^^^
I agree too...
... I'm a fan of spacers... good for the stance of the car and I also notice a negative difference in cornering performance when ever I have removed them :happy2:
Robin - what have the brakes got to do with the purchasing decision?
possibly some people need a spacer to clear the spokes ?, i had to on my last car (thankfully they were only 3mm ones though)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy8%2F182_blue%2FIMG_0918.jpg&hash=f7515d083bcbb97cdc03e50178da495d95faafc3)
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FK are very hit and miss with the quality of their products, I'd trust H&R or Eibach, but never FK.
Thanks for the tip!
:happy2:
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^^^^^I agree^^^^^
I agree too...
... I'm a fan of spacers... good for the stance of the car and I also notice a negative difference in cornering performance when ever I have removed them :happy2:
Robin - what have the brakes got to do with the purchasing decision?
possibly some people need a spacer to clear the spokes ?, i had to on my last car (thankfully they were only 3mm ones though)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy8%2F182_blue%2FIMG_0918.jpg&hash=f7515d083bcbb97cdc03e50178da495d95faafc3)
Ahhhh, got ya - that makes perfect sense..... as we were talking about parts failing I asumed brake forces were getting pulled in to the mix.... but that point makes way more sense :rolleye:
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^^perhaps im wrong LOL, just thats what happened to me :laugh:
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Robin - what have the brakes got to do with the purchasing decision?
....As 182_blue has now posted.
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I've run H&R spacers in both 10mm and 15mm fitments on my last 3 cars over a total of 50K miles without a single problem :happy2:
I did actually buy some FK ones for my old Bora many years ago and sent them straight back for an exchange to H&R's without even fitting them as using my wonky engineers eye it was obvious they were far from the last word in quality... take a search over on the vortex and you'd send yours back too...
H&R's FTMFW :happy2:
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hi i wont to buy some 10mm spacers for my gti are there any pictures with and with out
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I had a set of FKs that did exactly the same as yours.
I only buy Eibach or H&R now.