MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: Mk5 GTian on January 22, 2012, 06:28:48 am
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I've just bought a 2009 copy of VW driver on ebay, the special GTi issue which celebrated 6 generations, and found some really interesting reading about performance of the KO3 Mk5 GTi.
"According to VW, DSG gave better performance and fuel consumption than the manual (0.3 secs quicker 0-62 and 0.4mpg more), but our road test figures showed the opposite: The manual car was 0.3 secs quicker and nearly 2 mpg more economical".
O-60 0-70 50-70 in 3rd (kickdown for DSG) Overall MPG Economical driving MPG
DSG 6.3 8.2 3.4 26.7 37.9
Manual 6.0 8.3 3.3 28.6 39.6
This brings up 2 points for me:
Why are VW's performance figures so conservative?
Did VW massage the figures to make the DSG look quicker than the manual in order to sell DSG boxes, which have clearly resulted from massive investment? I mean, who would spend nearly 2 grand more on a slower car?
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I have manual!!!! :driver: :laugh:
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I have manual!!!! :driver: :laugh:
Me too, and I've had cars with 0-60 in around 7 before, and my boggo standard deffo feels quicker! It's gonna feel a lot quicker after stage 1 and a K&N air filter!! :happy2:
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All figures from all manufacturers can be manipulated and usually are. Take with a pinch of salt i would as so many factors that can alter the stats. I know with some fords they used to manipulate that stats which i can only presume for insurance purposes.
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I seriously doubt dsg is slower 0-60 with the shift time being that quick
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The 1/4 mile leaderboardbsays otherwise. The quickest cars are all dsg
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I seriously doubt dsg is slower 0-60 with the shift time being that quick
I guess it depends on who is driving the car. Also, the shift may be quicker, but are there not drawbacks in power delivery compared to a manual? A really skillful driver in a manual can shift quicker, and may cancel out the advantage of the dsg? Just a suggestion, I don't know! Just think it's really interesting.
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The 1/4 mile leaderboardbsays otherwise. The quickest cars are all dsg
Fair enough! Nothing like a bit of empirical evidence! Where is this leaderboard info? is it on the forum? And I wonder why they had these results?
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The 1/4 mile leaderboardbsays otherwise. The quickest cars are all dsg
Could they be remapped DSG systems though?
Im like MK5 GTIAN, not really sure just making points to why they may have got those figures lol. Maybe DSG changes too soon? I dont know.
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I doubt even a racing car driver could match the gear change of DSG. Otherwise F1 cars would be Manual and not Semi-Auto sequential boxes. DSG shifts in 8milliseconds and as far as i know is the fastest shifting box out there.
Mapping a DSG box just allows it to rev higher (which you can do yourself by holding the paddle) and increases the torque limit. I know that REVO also alter the launch control point.
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I'd say that the times are complete bull :laugh:
It's pretty much impossible for a manual to be faster than a DSG :popcornsoda: the DSG gear change is unreal
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I think the columns have been mixed up in printing.. :signLOL:
I'd like to see someone try and shift gear quicker then 8 milliseconds :grin:
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But atleast the manual gearbox driver was more involved in the driving experience :driver:
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DJM, good point, how would the leaderboard look if all were boggo standard, and DSG's were not remapped? Purely down to driver skill differences.
vRS Carl & SaintSteve, just because the shifts are amazingly quick, does that necessarily make the car faster? DJM makes a good point about the DSG box in standard form. Maybe it changes up too early? If a manual is very well driven, with optimum changes, maybe this could make up for the slower shifts?
Mat ED30, I agree with your point about driver involvement, and I'd always have a manual. I'd love to get hold of 2 boggo standard
K03's (1 manual and 1 DSG) and the same with 2 ED30's, and get someone like Tiff Niddell to record their fastest times in each. I reckon it'd be really interesting. I mean, I doubt the guys at Volkswagen Driver made it up!
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theres a video im sure it was on here where a japanese drifting champion, who can shift gear unbelievably quick races a dsg in a manual both standard and he gets dusted, they then swap cars and he absolutely loves the dsg, and states he thinks it has set a new standard for auto boxes. I drive a manual by the was so im not biased in the slightest towards dsg
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DSG cars arent as good on fuel as a manual (driven economically).
No doubt that the DSG is rapid at changing gear, no manual could match it even with a short shift kit :driver:
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vRS Carl & SaintSteve, just because the shifts are amazingly quick, does that necessarily make the car faster? DJM makes a good point about the DSG box in standard form. Maybe it changes up too early? If a manual is very well driven, with optimum changes, maybe this could make up for the slower shifts?
Yes it may well change up to early but if you have the car in Manual Mode and hold the paddle when you shift it stops it upshifting (same thing that is done when Dyno testing a DSG car). So that kind of negates your point. I don't know about all the cars on the 1/4 mile leader board and maybe they all do have mapped boxes. But as i said earlier all that does is allow the car to rev higher (which you can do yourself by holding the paddle) and increase the torque limiter.
I could throw the same argument back. A very well launched DSG car, with shifting at the optimum point will negate any optimum changes in the manual car.
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These figures have been repeated for every type of GTI VW Driver have driven since DSG was launched.
They have discussed this further in later editions and put it down to the fact they have tested manuals this way for years and they have their technique sorted. No other explanation other than that. A good journo with years of road testing experience will be able to launch a manual far quicker than most.
As mentioned above, check the 0-60/0-100 leader boards and it is dominated with DSG. Anyone can launch a DSG quickly, not so with a manual.
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There also was a golf R comparison by AutoCar with Steve Sutcliffe at the wheel. The Dsg car was far faster and no matter what he tried, couldnt get the manual near..
http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=%2F&gl=GB#/watch?v=lRwfvnDt7BA
Or this as someone quoted
:smiley:
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Fair play, 0.4 secs quicker in the DSG, and then it stomps over the Megane 225. Can't argue with that!
That guys' changes in the manual are amazing though! It also highlights the higher skill level required to launch well in a manual.
So the amazing time of 0-60 in 6 secs by VWD in the manual is purely down to a well honed launch technique?
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The 1/4 mile leaderboardbsays otherwise. The quickest cars are all dsg
This
There's also that video of a Japanese race car driver in a GTI (manual and DSG) and he was getting better 0 - 60 times in the DSG. And there's a video on YouTube of the Golf R manual vs DSG and in 3 runs the manual isn't faster than the DSG a single time. Nor was it consistent, where the DSG was
But in any event, in real world conditions i.e. you or me (so not race car drivers on a closed circuit for a magazine) I'd bet my mortgage that a DSG car would trounce an equivalent manual car in a race between the lights every single time
I'm not all that bothered about the fuel economy, as the convenience and duality of the gearbox is worth 2mpg all day long.
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Just look how quick dodgems got off the line :signLOL:
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Just look how quick dodgems got off the line :signLOL:
and they're fun and involving, and don't have a stick shift :smiley:
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I'd imagine the manual is quicker to 60 as you can run a manual into the red line to get a full 60 mph in second gear (remember indicated is more like 64-64mph at 60) and a dsg box will change up once in the red zone. You cannot change gear as quickly as the dsg does it manually, no chance.
As far as conservative figures go, VW quote performance figures with 2 passengers, a full tank of fuel and fully loaded boot. An extra 1.2 secs to 60 with all that lot on board sounds realistic to me.
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This video proves that wrong big style.
3 runs in a Golf R in the manual followed by 3 runs in the DSG. Same day, same road, same driver, same conditions.
Manual 0-60
Claimed 5.7 Secs
Actual
Run 1: 6.4 secs
Run 2: 6.7 Secs
Run 3: 6.3 Secs
DSG 0-60
Claimed 5.5 Secs
Actual
Run 1: 5.7 secs
Run 2: 5.7 secs
Run 3: 5.7 secs
Also if VW quote figures with 2 passengers and fully loaded boot, then they are way off the actual performance as that was just steve sutcliffe in that car on his own
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Also if VW quote figures with 2 passengers and fully loaded boot, then they are way off the actual performance as that was just steve sutcliffe in that car on his own
That's what it says in the original 2004 gti vw brochure :smiley:
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Why would they set the figures with all that extra weight? I doubt that, any way figures are irelavant, evo did 6.5 to 60 in mine, no idea how unless my handbrake is stuck on :signLOL:
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Also if VW quote figures with 2 passengers and fully loaded boot, then they are way off the actual performance as that was just steve sutcliffe in that car on his own
That's what it says in the original 2004 gti vw brochure :smiley:
You sure that's not just for Consumption figures? I've never known any manufacturer quote a 0-60 time with extra weight? They would want it to be as quick as possible for something like a GTi :confused:
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Also if VW quote figures with 2 passengers and fully loaded boot, then they are way off the actual performance as that was just steve sutcliffe in that car on his own
That's what it says in the original 2004 gti vw brochure :smiley:
You sure that's not just for Consumption figures? I've never known any manufacturer quote a 0-60 time with extra weight? They would want it to be as quick as possible for something like a GTi :confused:
i'm pretty sure the A3's figures are meant to represent real world driving (b*llocks) by having two passengers, reasonable luggage and half a tank of fuel or something similar
i can't imagine VW would do any different
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Also if VW quote figures with 2 passengers and fully loaded boot, then they are way off the actual performance as that was just steve sutcliffe in that car on his own
That's what it says in the original 2004 gti vw brochure :smiley:
You sure that's not just for Consumption figures? I've never known any manufacturer quote a 0-60 time with extra weight? They would want it to be as quick as possible for something like a GTi :confused:
Yep, 100% sure it is reference the performance stats
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Most data proves that DSG accelerates quicker.
On acceleration gear change speed is by far most important. So DSG ist faster
then. Even the best professional driver cannot beat DSG.
On constant speed gear efficiency dominates, so Vmax is higher on a manual
compared to the 6-speed DSG DQ250 with oil cooled clutches and mileage is
slightly higher then.
Exception proove the rule. :wink:
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Watch the video & you'll see DSG is the way forward, best race start I've ever done :signLOL:
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well the only comment i can make is... even though DSG is quicker than Manual, i can not see myself in an auto for many many years to come.
:mad: LONG LIVE THE STICK!
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Watch the video & you'll see DSG is the way forward, best race start I've ever done :signLOL:
Yeah but the manual raddo had you :driver: :signLOL:
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Watch the video & you'll see DSG is the way forward, best race start I've ever done :signLOL:
Yeah but the manual raddo had you :driver: :signLOL:
You can't beat all of them :smiley: I'll pull my finger out for 2012 :driver:
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Good luck this year :happy2:
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well the only comment i can make is... even though DSG is quicker than Manual, i can not see myself in an auto for many many years to come.
:mad: LONG LIVE THE STICK!
Me too! I like to 'drive' the car, not just sit in it and steer! :driver:
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well the only comment i can make is... even though DSG is quicker than Manual, i can not see myself in an auto for many many years to come.
:mad: LONG LIVE THE STICK!
Me too! I like to 'drive' the car, not just sit in it and steer! :driver:
Drive a DSG in Manual Mode and use the Paddles :wink: :driver:
You feel like (in my bestest broadest North Yorkshire accent) "your driven one of them theeer cars that's got flappy paddles lak Michael Schoooomachers Ferrari" :grin:
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The DSG is my first "Auto Box" (well twin clutch semi auto :happy2:) after 21 years of manual cars, tbh I dont miss changing gear one bit, with all the traffic on the road, its nice to able to sit in auto for 90% of the time and stick in manual mode for the rest.
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well the only comment i can make is... even though DSG is quicker than Manual, i can not see myself in an auto for many many years to come.
:mad: LONG LIVE THE STICK!
Me too! I like to 'drive' the car, not just sit in it and steer! :driver:
Drive a DSG in Manual Mode and use the Paddles :wink: :driver:
You feel like (in my bestest broadest North Yorkshire accent) "your driven one of them theeer cars that's got flappy paddles lak Michael Schoooomachers Ferrari" :grin:
:signLOL: I should try one,you are right..I'm going to test drive one so I can give a real, not biased opinion!
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well the only comment i can make is... even though DSG is quicker than Manual, i can not see myself in an auto for many many years to come.
:mad: LONG LIVE THE STICK!
................. :congrats: same here :driver: :happy2:
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LMFAO.
I normally reside on GolfGTI.co.uk and a DSG/Manual thread appeared last week. But it wasn't a dignified as this thread, it quickly turned into if you have DSG you're not a real man....
I have DSG in my current car but won't get it again as I feel I can't control the gears well enough in normal road driving, I want to pull in 5th but instead the DSG says "sod that, surely you want me to bang it down into third"
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LMFAO.
I normally reside on GolfGTI.co.uk and a DSG/Manual thread appeared last week. But it wasn't a dignified as this thread, it quickly turned into if you have DSG you're not a real man....
I have DSG in my current car but won't get it again as I feel I can't control the gears well enough in normal road driving, I want to pull in 5th but instead the DSG says "sod that, surely you want me to bang it down into third"
that's why there's a manual mode. pull the left hand paddle once (if you're in 6th) and if you don't activate the kickdown it won't change gear for you, even if you put your foot right down. it'll stay in 5th as you want it to
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LMFAO.
I normally reside on GolfGTI.co.uk and a DSG/Manual thread appeared last week. But it wasn't a dignified as this thread, it quickly turned into if you haven't got DSG you're not a real man....
I have DSG in my current car but won't get it again as I feel I can't control the gears well enough in normal road driving, I want to pull in 5th but instead the DSG says "sod that, surely you want me to bang it down into third"
Corrected that for you as it says so in the brochure :evilgrin:
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LMFAO.
I normally reside on GolfGTI.co.uk and a DSG/Manual thread appeared last week. But it wasn't a dignified as this thread, it quickly turned into if you have DSG you're not a real man....
I have DSG in my current car but won't get it again as I feel I can't control the gears well enough in normal road driving, I want to pull in 5th but instead the DSG says "sod that, surely you want me to bang it down into third"
Thanks Jimmy Mature, can you tell my Mrs. I've been involved in something dignified please?! :signLOL:
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LMFAO.
I normally reside on GolfGTI.co.uk and a DSG/Manual thread appeared last week. But it wasn't a dignified as this thread, it quickly turned into if you have DSG you're not a real man....
I have DSG in my current car but won't get it again as I feel I can't control the gears well enough in normal road driving, I want to pull in 5th but instead the DSG says "sod that, surely you want me to bang it down into third"
that's why there's a manual mode. pull the left hand paddle once (if you're in 6th) and if you don't activate the kickdown it won't change gear for you, even if you put your foot right down. it'll stay in 5th as you want it to
The problem with this solution is that you have to put it in a gear you don't want before you can pull and that means the car isn't doing what I want.
I know you can push the stick over to manual but I don't always do it.
85% of the time I like DSG but I won't be getting one again when the GTI gets replaced.
Jim
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I have DSG in my current car but won't get it again as I feel I can't control the gears well enough in normal road driving, I want to pull in 5th but instead the DSG says "sod that, surely you want me to bang it down into third"
To summarise this then.
If you had a manual with big power you would destroy clutches.
High gear low revs accelerations (which result in long periods of peak torque being applied tohe clutch) result in worn clutches. You SHOULD change down a gear to raise the revs up and let the power pull you through.
Torque kills clutches not power.
This is exactly why the DSG ignores what you are doing because you are wrong and potentially going to cause excessive wear on the clutch packs and changes down to protect them.
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I have DSG in my current car but won't get it again as I feel I can't control the gears well enough in normal road driving, I want to pull in 5th but instead the DSG says "sod that, surely you want me to bang it down into third"
To summarise this then.
If you had a manual with big power you would destroy clutches.
High gear low revs accelerations (which result in long periods of peak torque being applied tohe clutch) result in worn clutches. You SHOULD change down a gear to raise the revs up and let the power pull you through.
Torque kills clutches not power.
This is exactly why the DSG ignores what you are doing because you are wrong and potentially going to cause excessive wear on the clutch packs and changes down to protect them.
I agree that what DSG does is the optimal way, but it's too mental for me. My car is remapped and kicking it down into third the car just takes off.
I've driven the car around today in manual mode and preferred it but still all the benefits of the DSG quick shifting.
Jim