MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Modifications & Technical Area => Performance Modifications => Topic started by: Deako on February 14, 2012, 10:49:35 am
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Edit: Information relating to the NQSBBK Little Brother for the Polo GTI
Ok, Dave and I have decided that we will use this thread as a bit of a 6R Polo GTI BBK - WHAT NOT TO DO - and try and advise people appropriately for the future, as well as use for a little R&D and testing of the kit on my car.
Please disregard anything below this, until we get to Page2 were Dave explains WHY this setup is not suitable for anything and just doesnt have the stopping power.
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Hi All. I am in the process of putting together my BBK for the Polo GTI.
The spec will be as follows:
Boxster S Rear calipers w/ custom brackets for a Mk4 Golf (from PorscheCalipers.co.uk)
312mm Mk4 Golf discs
HEL lines, direct from HEL
New Textar or Brembo pads
Ive just received my HEL lines. Can anyone tell me if the Boxster S rear calipers require banjo fittings? As that is what HEL have sent me. They are different from the lines that everyone else is fitting with the NQSBBK, which have a different fitment type for the caliper. But everyone does use different calipers with this setup compared to what i am fitting.
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Have you compared the piston size to the Clio 197/200?? If they match, I think it'll be the perfect setup. We both know how well the Clio stopped, and that was heavier.
Do TT/MKIV Anniversary rears fit too?
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Have you compared the piston size to the Clio 197/200?? If they match, I think it'll be the perfect setup. We both know how well the Clio stopped, and that was heavier.
Do TT/MKIV Anniversary rears fit too?
It will be a very similar setup to the Clio Mike. :happy2: Im having my calipers refurbished with Brembo logos as well, rather than Porsche.
Yes, the 256mm CupraR/TT/Mk4 rears fit as well. That will be the plan for the rears eventually.
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Mate
DONT fit that setup - its not safe, plus the carriers wont fit your polo.
PM me for my mobile and RING ME before fitting
Ive done a lot of work on the Polo Hub including a NQSBBK for it, the geometry is similar to a mk4 but its quite different
I do not want to sell you anything
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^^^ I would give Dave a call. He is a very busy man so if he is taking the time to make sure you get the right set up for your car i would definately take the opportunatey to chat it through with him :happy2:
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Mate
DONT fit that setup - its not safe, plus the carriers wont fit your polo.
PM me for my mobile and RING ME before fitting
Ive done a lot of work on the Polo Hub including a NQSBBK for it, the geometry is similar to a mk4 but its quite different
I do not want to sell you anything
But the mk4 312 brake discs, calipers and carriers fit perfect so why wouldn't the mk4 brembo upgrade kit work?
Be interested to know as this is an option I'm considering, although it might be going for aa much bigger 2 piece option
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I did PM you Dave about 2 weeks ago askign for advice for my 6R Polo, and didnt get a response. I know you are busy, so have tried to do my own research.
The same kit has already been fitted to a Polo and fits perfectly. Why is the front end so different from a Mk4 setup? A guy on Edition 38 fitted the Brembo GT Mk4 conversion to his Polo. I posted a pic of it in Hurdys thread. Hurdy i believe, also purchased the Tarox BB setup for a Mk4 Golf.
But would be intrigued to know why you think its "dangerous".
It means im getting a BBK setup for
£370 calipers
£80 brackets
£30 hel lines
£75 discs
£50 pads
£605 all in.
Dave. This is your quote from your recent sale thread:
Polo 6R/Fabia VRS/ Audi A1 NQSBBK Fitting Kit -£250
<Picture of porsche caliper here fitted to hub>
Yes it's here for the GTI's kid brother, uses Mk4 312mm discs from the 4mo or Anniversary - Carriers/Bolts/ Lines
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As far as I know the rear Boxster calipers don't work well as front calipers on any car.
Their piston size is totally wrong.
Dave can correct me if I am mistaking.
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As far as I know the rear Boxster calipers don't work well as front calipers on any car.
Their piston size is totally wrong.
Dave can correct me if I am mistaking.
I dont believe so. This was a post that was taken from a TT forum after consultation with DaveB.
Guys, I have said this before but you really need to talk to DaveB1970.
This info is copied from one of his threads on ukmkivs - Sorry Dave but its not copyrighted
The 986S (Boxster S) has the same setup as a 996 Carrera 2/4 Boxster S calipers are Red,..... 996 Calipers are Painted Gloss Black or Silver as an option.
Buyer beware boxster rears 986.352.421 & 422 are configured for a 20mm disc and you cannot physically get this caliper over the top of a 25mm wide VAG 312 Disc. The difference ison the pad pegs, they extend further out onthe rears to fit the thinner discs
In summary
Boxster (2.5 & 2.7) Fronts - All Good (Need reversing though)
Boxster (2.5 & 2.7) Rears - No Good for VAG
Boxster S & Carrera 2/4 Fronts (and also 996 Twin Turbo rears) - Good for VAG on custom 330mm discs - search Rays (aRd)'s posts
Boxster S rears - Good for VAG dont need reversing
996 Carrera 2/4 Rears - Good for VAG dont need reversing
The calipers that DO need reversing have larger pistons, some see these bigger pistons as a benefit for ultimate stopping power with racing pads on a track. For fast street the smaller pistoned calipers all give forehead against windscreen performance with an absolute solid pedal because smaller pistons need less pedal travel which is Hydraulics 101!
Dave pretty much has brackets for all these calipers and they are good prices.
Matt
The Boxster S and 996 C2/4 rears are the same calipers.
The part numbers of my calipers are: 996.352.421 and 996.352.422
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Deako, sorry mate! My mistake :sad1:.
I may have mistaken the Boxster S rear calipers with Boxster rear calipers!
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My TAROX brake kit works perfectly well.
The kit has 323mm one piece discs and TAROX's B30 -6 pot calipers. The carriers iirc were designed for the MKIV Golf, but slot straight on to the Polo. :happy2:
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i think what dave might be getting at is the boxster calipers wont go over the 312mm discs once the pads are installed.
iirc you need 911 4 pots which will fit on 312mm discs with no issues
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I can see DaveB banging his head as we speak!
911 (996) fronts are too wide for the 25mm thk 312s.
Boxster rears are generally deemed too small piston wise.
But I aint no expert so I am outta here! :P :happy2: :wink:
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These are the brackets im getting. As you can see, they clearly state that they are the correct caliper for 25mm 312mm discs, and the conversion has been sold to other people that i have spoken to, one of which a Polo.
http://porschecalipers.co.uk/uk/81/produkty/57/golf_mk4_platform_using_312mm_discs_and_boxster_s_rear_calipers.html
I am getting the correct Boxster S rear calipers, that fit the 312x25mm discs.
I just want to know why one would say that the kit would be dangerous, when Mk4 based kits have been used, tried and tested on the Polo 6R platform. I dont want to offend Dave, i just want an answer. Instead of just coming on here giving a bold statement. Maybe an explanation as to why it wont work?
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Exactly. they also quote this so people cant cock it up
Brake adapters to allow fitment of Porsche 996 Rear/ Porcshe Boxter s Rear/ Brembo brake calipers with the standard VAG 5 X 100 PCD 312mm discs.
The part numbers for the calipers are 996.352.421 and 996.352.422 these will allow for a 312mm disc
Please note Boxster 2.5/2.7L share the same part number on they calipers but will not work on this conversion as the calipers are suitable to work on a maximum of 24mm discs not 25mm as on Vag application.
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^^ I cant answer the above but I'm sure it will all be resolved soon.
Well done for having a go. :happy2:
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Anyway. Back to my original question, as i know the brakes will fit and work fine. I think. :grin:
My HEL lines have been supplied with banjo fittings, with separate bolts. Thomas at Porsche Calipers said that these can be prone to leaks. The thing is, Thomas charges £50 for lines, that i have purchased directly from HEL for much less. Only they have put slightly different fittings on.
Has anyone had any major issues with banjo fitments leaking?
I have asked the question of HEL, but they have not yet come back to me. If need be, ill send them back, and ask for the different fittings on the end.
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just goes to show you shouldn't believe what you read on the Internet.
I was in error....... there you go, im less worried about admitting it then you fitting them PLEASE don't fit them
In fairness that post is Probably nearly four years old and was a repost of a repost, I made a mistake way back when on the part numbers and piston sizes
the piston sizes on those calipers are 28/30mm
So if you work it out Pi R squared it comes out at
14x14=196x3.142=615
15x15=225x3.142=707
So 1322 sq mm
So let's work backwards
1322 / 3.142 = 421
Square Root 421 = 20.5 = Radius
= 41mm diameter.
So you,re swapping your 54mm single piston caliper on a 288mm disc
To a 41mm equivalent caliper on a 312mm disc
In addition with an increase in diameter the surface area increases exponentially nearly
Those calipers are woefully short of capacity and power, they will feel incredibly sharp at slow speeds but simply not retard you enough much over 50mph, they are dangerous and shouldn't be fitted to the front of the car
In addition the mounting points on the 6R hub is recessed and consequently you need a 4 mm boss machining onto the carrier, the design that Thomas uses as well as Volksbits was all copied from some carriers I made back in 2008 if he's changed the design to reflect the requirement then I apologise. I still have a shed load of them under the stairs that I refuse to sell, we even used to mate them to a 325mm disc until the math was done and I stopped selling them in early 2009, there's plenty of threads on the mk4 forums about their lack of capacity
the polo hub is NOT a mk4 hub it's quite different.
I'm sorry pal they work on the back of a 996 or boxster S and that's about it, Thomas might give you your money back.
That caliper was a 2.5 Non S Boxster FRONT caliper in the pic 36/40mm pistons same as the NQSBBK for the Mk5 which would work really well on the 6R, which is why I went out and bought some boxster calipers and a brand new 6R hub and bearing and did some design work.
I'm sorry I didn't get back to you with your Pm I've just finished the busiest stretch of my professional flying career in 12 years so sometimes it's difficult to stay in touch as much as Id like to.
In short if the caliper has a 352 in the part number Avoid it, 351 is FRONT brakes and is ok
HEL lines are great but the designs are poor, you need a M10 swivel fitting not a banjo, the fitting they use also doesn't fit the inner wing.
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:happy2: :happy2:
Are you offering a brembo 4 pot 312 kit at the mo Dave?
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There you go. Thanks for the explanation Dave. :happy2:
Stay posted. I'll be back with an update.
Dave, can you tell me how much you would charge for JUST some brackets to fit the Boxster front calipers? I can possibly change my order with Thomas to some front calipers. As i want a custom order with brembo decals.
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yep NQSBBK for the polo is in stock and ready to go, just add some 312 discs and some boxster front calipers 986.351.421 & 422
In fact I need a guinea pig for it so a discount for the first kit to get fitted but I'll let have deako have first Dibs on a cheap kit in case thomas jerks him about
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fw69%2Fdave_brown1970%2F2166fe7a.jpg&hash=2bb824d9e8b0a252c6ee7de6827bd8fffc4fe7e8)
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Dave, can you please PM me when you have a moment.
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Ill let deako take that for the minute. My car is off with APR from this weekend for a few weeks for hybrid work. A proper bbk might be getting specced. So to early for me to go forit. Just curious of prices :happy2:
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Home number sent
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This is the setup I ran on my mk4 golf, and it was utter crap. It doesnt stop the car, and is dangerous! At slow speeds it works, but if your doing 70mph the car doesn't stop. The car was in loads of garages to get to the bottom of it. I sold it on in the end and bought cupra calipers.
I'm sure I'll have a thread o. Ukmkivs about it aswell.
DaveB supplied me with custom disks for it aswell. think they were machined rover25 disks or something?
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fb150%2Fheavyd123%2FDSC00939.jpg&hash=d1e5e668e9af30857ba2c2e8b36fc07caf80dcd7)
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Thanks Dave for taking the time to respond and for the phone call.
You have been an absolute star, and explained everything perfectly.
The Boxster S rear setup (as previously posted above as well) does just appear totally inadequate. And due to the old design of the caliper brackets associated with this conversion for the Mk4 no longer being suitable (due to requiring a boss milling into the bracket), it just will not work. And will be dangerous.
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These any good for the Polo mob? :happy2:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tarox-Big-Brake-Upgrade-VW-Golf-Mk4-6-Pot-Calipers-Discs-Pads-Lines-/270910416824?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item3f1384e7b8#ht_500wt_835
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These any good for the Polo mob? :happy2:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tarox-Big-Brake-Upgrade-VW-Golf-Mk4-6-Pot-Calipers-Discs-Pads-Lines-/270910416824?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item3f1384e7b8#ht_500wt_835
It depends whether the brackets have a boss machined into them.
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These any good for the Polo mob? :happy2:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tarox-Big-Brake-Upgrade-VW-Golf-Mk4-6-Pot-Calipers-Discs-Pads-Lines-/270910416824?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item3f1384e7b8#ht_500wt_835
It depends whether the brackets have a boss machined into them.
Professor friction will most likely know :happy2:
Seems a different kit to Hurdy's? I gather his should have the boss on the bracket though?
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These any good for the Polo mob? :happy2:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tarox-Big-Brake-Upgrade-VW-Golf-Mk4-6-Pot-Calipers-Discs-Pads-Lines-/270910416824?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item3f1384e7b8#ht_500wt_835
It depends whether the brackets have a boss machined into them.
they won't work hurdys calipers are the radial mount ones with a properly designed carrier for the Mk4 and polo and I think the Tarox kit uses Leon Cupra R 323mm discs , these calipers are axial mount with an adaptor plate I think
Professor friction will most likely know :happy2:
Seems a different kit to Hurdy's? I gather his should have the boss on the bracket though?
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I knew there was a reason I asked about piston sizing!
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I knew there was a reason I asked about piston sizing!
Yup. :happy2: Thanks to DaveB im not about to make a mistake. I have advised the guy with them fitted to his Polo, and he seems to think they are fine over 70mph. But each to their own.
I will be now moving to some Boxster fronts which have bigger piston sizes than the Clio did, so it should be quite astonishing with the little Polo once they are fitted. :happy2:
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As far as I know the rear Boxster calipers don't work well as front calipers on any car.
Their piston size is totally wrong.
Dave can correct me if I am mistaking.
Deako, I'm glad you were stopped before it was too late. You will absolutely love the NQSBBK!
I am also glad I did not present false information :innocent:.
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As far as I know the rear Boxster calipers don't work well as front calipers on any car.
Their piston size is totally wrong.
Dave can correct me if I am mistaking.
Deako, I'm glad you were stopped before it was too late. You will absolutely love the NQSBBK!
I am also glad I did not present false information :innocent:.
Thanks Rex. I guess that 4 years on, some information that Dave told people has kind of stuck as gospel, even though he knows it was wrong now. Thankfully, we have a resident brake expert that is a pleasure to speak to, and after him explaining it in more detail, i am thoroughly happy with the decision to cancel the order for the Boxster S calipers.
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Just goes to show how people are either too stubborn or ignorant to accept when something is crap.
Should be epic on the right calipers :happy2:
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Lucky escape you had!
They're honestly worse than the stock 312mm setup. I don't know how anyone can say otherwise. The kit is like night and day compared to the lcr Brembo setup that I replaced it with.
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Just to add now weve sorted piston sizes out, a lot of the Mk4 kits are being touted as suitable for the Polo
Mk4 Brackets can have a straight mounting face which are cheap to produce such as these
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fporschecalipers.co.uk%2Fobrazki%2Fgaleria_produktow%2F33%2Fe8083c12b59be785bd31b71a602465ed.jpg&hash=077a2a8aa8a5b52e1caf82b849d87236d65157fb)
As you can see these carriers can be manufactured in essence with two "passes"
The mounting lugs on a Mk4 are proud of the hub casting so you can get away with this more affordable way of manufacturing bracketry
The Polo lugs are recessed so the bracketry needs to be designed accordingly
Just had this snapshot from solidworks - hopefully you can see what I was making a fuss about
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fw69%2Fdave_brown1970%2Fb8d720cd.jpg&hash=9fd528e6e9d770755a4d3bc2bf0a03eb1bb1e8d8)
We've got the old Mk4 330mm 996 Front Kit we've adapted for the polo, thats on a 28mm front disc and will work well on track days
And this NQSBBK variant for the polo
Ive refrained converting the 996 Turbo Calipers for the Polo onto the Mk4 R32 Disc.....
And the GT3RS Ceramic 6 Pots.....
And the Carrera GT Rear Calipers......
I do however retain the right to mod the design for the first person to attain 350BHP out of the Polo :evilgrin:
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Nice illustration of where the problem lies when developing bracketry for the 6R uprights Dave. :happy2:
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Ok. Been a long old shopping list this has:
- 312mm Discs gone for some grooved MTEC Brakes discs from Minibitz on eBay. Not sure how good these will be, did ask for advice, but nobody offered any unfortunately. Only £75 the pair.
- Brembo pads. Seem good for £50.
- Boxster/Cayman front calipers refurbished in white.
- H&R 8mm spacers and 40mm wheel bolts.
- Pagid cera tec synthetic brake grease.
- 2x sets of Anti Squeal shims from ECP.
- Brake kit from DaveB (still waiting on this bit) including lines and brackets/bolts.
- 2x new Mk4 Golf 312mm splash shields.
Still booked in for fitting on the 10th March. :happy2: