MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Modifications & Technical Area => Performance Modifications => Topic started by: deano65 on March 19, 2012, 07:12:24 pm
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Hello everyone,
has anyone had a generic stage 1 map by any chance, i am thinking about getting this done from Revolution at Gateshead but they haven't got a rolling road..? any views.. and would it make much difference for 245 bhp and £350..
:confused:
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Revolution managed to supply me an exhaust for my mk4 golf, made that much of a mess fitting it, I had to go to milltek hq and get a full new exhaust fitted. I would never use them again.
There's always pdt in Sunderland, who charge a decent price, and has a rolling road. I think there may be a forum discount available but not sure. Search the user pdt on here. There's quite a few people in here with his remaps
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Thanks
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There's a rolling road day there on 1st April organised by folks on here. you could always have a dodge along, I'm sure we could help to give you some ideas on how to spend some of your hard earned :drinking:
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,43745.0.html
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Generic mapping is always a compromise, maps are usually bought in from god knows where and usually the choice of the amateur that is new to the remapping industry.
We do full custom maps including rolling road tuning and datalogging and lifetime tech support for £299 to forum members. Why are we cheaper than others? And include a whole lot more? Because we write maps in-house rather than buy them in and we are a tuning company and not a shop.
Pop in for a free trial of our software if you like :happy2:
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doethat include Revo Dave :P
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Hi Andy,
Does what include revo?
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Generic mapping is always a compromise :signLOL:
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Revo is far from Generic. Boost, fuel, and ignition advance maps are all tailored to suit the car via datalogging :booty:
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Revo is far from Generic. Boost, fuel, and ignition advance maps are all tailored to suit the car via datalogging :booty:
:ashamed: I know its on the wrong post but can you do revo on the day with the sps switch and how much...pm me if you need to
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What about APR then :evilgrin:
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R-Tech could do you a custom map on the dyno for less than that :happy2:
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Revo is far from Generic. Boost, fuel, and ignition advance maps are all tailored to suit the car via datalogging :booty:
:ashamed: I know its on the wrong post but can you do revo on the day with the sps switch and how much...pm me if you need to
Yes, £299 for the software and £100 for the switch (prices are + vat)
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What about APR then :evilgrin:
getting no answer of him :sad1:
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R-Tech could do you a custom map on the dyno for less than that :happy2:
i have had a r-tech map which was very good but i want some one more local
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What about APR then :evilgrin:
getting no answer of him :sad1:
I meant in terms of generic :innocent:
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Andy, I still have copies of your tuned software incase you ever need anything altered/reflashed etc...
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Cheers Dave
Looking into keeping the revo version of the stock map as well that's why I was thinking.of going revo
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Revo is far from Generic. Boost, fuel, and ignition advance maps are all tailored to suit the car via datalogging :booty:
But thebase file you adjust from is a generic developed file from the R&D which is then fine tuned with some preset parameters. Isn't that how all the proper tuners work once the r&d phase is complete. No ones foolish enough to think tuners produce a full custom new map from scrap every time in the space of 40-60minutes
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I always start from the cars original stock file and then make a pre-determined set of changes. These are always made to the cars original file and then Dyno tested and data logged. Further changes are then made based on the results of the datalogging and Dyno testing.
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I always start from the cars original stock file and then make a pre-determinedgeneric set of changes. These are always made to the cars original file and then Dyno tested and data logged. Further changes are then made based on the results of the datalogging and Dyno testing.
Is that not just a play on words. So that's how you write yours, how do you write revos then? Pre determined(generic) set of changes or map with further tweaks once that's loaded?
The problem we have is to define a custom map, a tailored generic map and an install and forget generic file with no tweaks
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So basically, its revolution 'generic' from unknown supplier £350 no rr or datalogging, or £299 for PDt with before and after RR sessions and datalogging, Maxitrol wants Revo cos APR are ignoring him, and now its the generic custom vs generic remap debate :signLOL:
:popcornsoda: :popcornsoda: :popcornsoda:
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The amount of work put into a map will depend on the spec of the engine, a stock car will not require a lot of changes from your 'pre determined' changes that you have made.
Saying that, its unlikely that the car will be perfect without further changes to the map. Some customers will use 95 ron, others 98, some want a more progressive power delivery, others want a very responsive aggressive map.
Generic maps are ready made, used by tuners that will just match a hardware number and flash it on with a 'that'll do, it was ok on the last car it was used on' attitude. They might have 5-6 ready made software versions that are just re-used time and time again. We often see cars with software that contains a completely different hardware and software number from that on the ECU when it left the factory, many cars with other cars chassis numbers, some cars with software from different model versions i.e pd150 stock maps copied and pasted into a PD115 ecu.
A generic map can be good, it can be pants. Its buyers beware to a certain extent, but at the very least the tuner should be checking the work by datalogging/dyno testing. the amount of cars we have seen over the years that have had cheap flash and hope remaps that have caused issues is scary, tfsi's with timing pull of 8-9, diesels with massive injection demands, diesel files with only fuel pressure raised and nothing else, BMW's with the rpm limiter set at 10,000 rpm.....
Generic diesel tuning is acceptable to an extent, but should still always be checked and not just flashed onto the ECU and driven away.
The problem is that even the worst of the worst tuners using cloned tools and map files are claiming to be offering the highest quality custom maps for £100, ideally the industry should be regulated in some way.
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Something I wrote on here a while back:
Good debate this one, and a question I am asked daily is 'can you do custom maps and how is it better than a generic map?'
The explanation could go into 3+ pages but a general rule is that a generic map is a 1 size fits all product, suitable for a wide range of applications and is not and can not be adjusted by the end user. i.e bluefin or 'flash remaps'. Flash remaps are a simple procedure where you take the car to a 'tuner' ( I use the term tuner very loosely for this type of remap option) and they get an ID of your ECU type and software version and email it to a 3rd party that will copy and paste the changed settings that were made for a similar ECU and car into a file and send it back, this file is then flashed over your current software, you get the keys back and the 'tuner' hopes it doesnt have any problems. The worst type of flash tuning is usually carried out from a back of a van.
A custom map will be very different, the tuner will likely be making the software themselfes rather than sending it away to a 3rd party and the use of a dyno is essential for back to back testing and measuring, however the use of a dyno does not define a custom map, its just a very very handy tool to have to determine wether ther changes you have made are making any real difference to power, emmissions, torque and various other parameters. A dyno allows you to back to back test the effect of the customising of the map in a controlled and safe environment. I.e if you add ignition advance is it making extra power? Is that extra bit of fuel you have added at 3000 rpm at 80% throttle lowered the exhaust gas temps to a safer levels, or has it effected the power output in any way? You get the idea, its time consuming and costly but you get the best end product available, not essesntial for the average stage 1 car but for motorsport or highly modded stuff its a must.
Then you get the middle ground such as REVO, which offers the best of both worlds. A simple sliding scale to adjust the boost, timing and fueling properties within the map and can be accurately adjusted with on-road datalogging to get a good end product. Yes it is custom to a certain extent but lacks the resolution of a genuine custom map as you can only adjust 3 parameters on a 2D sliding scale, no single adjustments for fuel vs throttle position for example, but for a quick easy product they are the market leaders for a very good reason.
As a guide, anyone that offers a 'full custom map' without the use of a dyno is cutting corners a little. Anyone that offers a custom map without any datalogging is either missinformed or pulling the wool over your eyes. We had a customer in yesterday that had a 'proper custom remap' (his words) that cost just £200 and was finished in just 10 mins, he was enquiring about rolling road testing as he couldnt tell the difference after it was done apart from it was jerky at low throttle, the 'tuner' said it will get better when the weather isnt so cold :grin:
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the middle ground such as REVO, which offers the best of both worlds. A simple sliding scale to adjust the boost, timing and fueling properties within the map and can be accurately adjusted with on-road datalogging to get a good end product. Yes it is custom to a certain extent but lacks the resolution of a genuine custom map as you can only adjust 3 parameters on a 2D sliding scale, no single adjustments for fuel vs throttle position for example, but for a quick easy product they are the market leaders for a very good reason.
This is how it was explained to me, but the 'no single point adjustment' and the limit of only '3 parameters of adjustment along a fixed preset scale' were highlighted as the main weakpoints of the revo maps. But you get a good result which is what sells maps at the end of the day
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Revo is far from Generic. Boost, fuel, and ignition advance maps are all tailored to suit the car via datalogging :booty:
But thebase file you adjust from is a generic developed file from the R&D which is then fine tuned with some preset parameters. Isn't that how all the proper tuners work once the r&d phase is complete. No ones foolish enough to think tuners produce a full custom new map from scrap every time in the space of 40-60minutes
True to write a map from scratch on an unknown engine would take 5-6weeks of R&D, most of that time is getting to understand how the engine reacts to changes and logging outputs.
We provide in house a spec1 custom remaps which are carried out over three hours and inc's a lot of changes and logging unique to each car/setup. We will start from one of our generic base maps , the only time we start from scratch is if the car has had a turbo upgrade and we will spend upto a week tuning. We use the findings from the custom mapping session to update and inplant on to our generic base codes
I have over 4500 map areas to "PLAY" with during a custom maps session, its not all about making power its about making the power as smooth and as linear as I can its easy to give a huge kick of power (just look at all the superchips desktop tuned maps not prouduced on a dyno IMO) At the moment I am looking in to the rpm limiter hysteresis and how the power tails off as the rpm limiter gets close, plus the rpm debounce times being reduced from 200rpm to 25rpm, silly little things can make a map feel better.
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The point that still confuses me is that even after a week of custom tuning, the figures that a custom map will give, still wont even match a stage 2+ Revo 'Generic' file. I understand the fact that the custom map will be be a lot smoother and more linear etc etc
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The point that still confuses me is that even after a week of custom tuning, the figures that a custom map will give, still wont even match a stage 2+ Revo 'Generic' file. I understand the fact that the custom map will be be a lot smoother and more linear etc etc
The way i had it explained to me by a couple other tuners (one was a revo dealer) was that a custom map or bespoke map allows that single point of adjustment at any point of the rev range thus for instance allowing the tuner to perfect the fueling throuhout. The REVO map when they switch settings; for instance setting fuel 8 is applied to the whole rev range. I guess this makes it work slightly harder to get that slightly better final result.
Probably the reason REVO cars really benefit from an upgraded HPFP even at Stage 1.
So basically, its revolution 'generic' from unknown supplier £350 no rr or datalogging, or £299 for PDt with before and after RR sessions and datalogging, Maxitrol wants Revo cos APR are ignoring him, and now its the generic custom vs generic remap debate :signLOL:
:popcornsoda: :popcornsoda: :popcornsoda:
But this thread from the offset has been talking about generic and custom maps from the offset :confused: PDT was explaining the difference between the two
I just gave my opinion that REVO are not a custom map, however that point highlights that people have different definitions of generic. Id put APR and REVO in that same band of map tbh. Its not a custom job each time as the base map has already been developed though months of R&D, but the maps have that range of adjustability that the dealers can tweak to make it match the actual car its installed on. If it wasnt adjusted it would be a plain generic base map like.
Plus you started it :P :P
What about APR then :evilgrin:
getting no answer of him :sad1:
I meant in terms of generic :innocent:
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Fair point. Apr and superchips are both generic, as no adjustment is possible once loaded, and revo is to an extent. Another point to mention is that the new revo linear stage 2+ I had the other week had overboosting by half a bar, irregular fuel rail requests etc. I had the normal stage 2+ loaded last week, now everything is fine again. So guess its not that generic after all :confused:
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Fair point. Apr and superchips are both generic, as no adjustment is possible once loaded, and revo is to an extent. Another point to mention is that the new revo linear stage 2+ I had the other week had overboosting by half a bar, irregular fuel rail requests etc. I had the normal stage 2+ loaded last week, now everything is fine again. So guess its not that generic after all :confused:
Wouldnt agree with that. Bluefin is generic as its a map that is loaded to the car with no further tweaks made after datalogging etc.
APR make their adjustments initially on the car when the map is loaded on and datalogged. So just like if you were to buy REVO stage 2+ but not have an SPS to adjust it yourself. The dealer makes the tweaks and then you drive away.
On your original point above then.....what about the REVO 2.0TSI map? That isnt adjustable once the map is loaded on the car fueling, boost and timing is fixed on what the dealer set it at.
i think you have missed my point. REVO and APR have a base file which is uploaded and then tweaked to make it work at its optimum by the dealers on the individual car in question. To me they are pretty much one and the same. Just with different tuning ethos's regarding how far they will push things.
but if were going to talk about how good revo is, whats the fastest car on the 1/4 mile thread by half a second......and pulling the haldex card doesnt work as positions 3 and 4 in the table are stage 2+ and stage 3 Audi S3s :P. And johnnys car was stripped out to the max. Not bad for a 'generic' map.
ill get my coat :innocent:
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The point that still confuses me is that even after a week of custom tuning, the figures that a custom map will give, still wont even match a stage 2+ Revo 'Generic' file. I understand the fact that the custom map will be be a lot smoother and more linear etc etc
But whos custom mapping? :wink:
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Back on topic, id not be installing a revolution generic map on my car. Stick to the established and proven guys
REVO
APR
PDT
RTEC
Jabba
PTorque
to name a few
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I was of the understanding that APR was just loaded onto the car and that was it, so my bad :ashamed:
Get your smoking jacket out and light yourself a cigar :happy2:
I didnt say APR was rubbish at all, all feedback from the people who are getting free apr remaps are saying its great :evilgrin:
Revo isnt perfect either, the stage 2+ last year gave me a CEL, the stage 2 I had the other month gave me a CEL, the first stage 2+ file didnt seem right, theres only this one I have at the minute that actuallys feels nice to drive.
I'll try and get a passenger ride in Mikes car in a couple of weeks and I'll give my verdict :happy2:
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Mikes feels more savage than the Golf R. Not sure if its because its a manual, maybe DSG makes it seem smoother, or maybe because its about 100kg lighter and FWD.