MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: Sammy on March 26, 2012, 10:23:55 pm
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I just bought a brand new S3 intercooler but realised it has the plastic ends compared to the metal ends, From what i know this is the latest version but which one is more efficient in terms of cooling and what are the differences?
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Mk.V GTI - slim and plastic end tanks
S3 up to 2009 - thicker and alloy tanks
Mk.VI GTI + 2010 S3 + Mk.VI R - thicker and plastic end tanks
So VW & Audi used to save some money.
The plastic hybrid one isn't worth the hassle swapping ICs.
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Mk.V GTI - slim and plastic end tanks
S3 up to 2009 - thicker and alloy tanks
Mk.VI GTI + 2010 S3 + Mk.VI R - thicker and plastic end tanks
So VW & Audi used to save some money.
The plastic hybrid one isn't worth the hassle swapping ICs.
So are the plastic ones better then the metal end ones? How does the plastic ended intercoolers perform?
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Anyone? I need a answer for this ASAP please if anyone knows, if not plastic then il just get it sold
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Just a guess but the Ali early versions are more expensive to manufacturer and are slightly better performance wise. Plastic is cheap and doesn't perform as well cost over ruling performance
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I think the Aluminium ones are still available.
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The thing is I already bought a intercooler with the plastic ends will that be enough for a k04 converted gti or will I need the metal ended intercooler? Apart from its not better then the metal one how good is it on its own?
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Mk.V GTI - slim and plastic end tanks
S3 up to 2009 - thicker and alloy tanks
Mk.VI GTI + 2010 S3 + Mk.VI R - thicker and plastic end tanks
So VW & Audi used to save some money.
The plastic hybrid one isn't worth the hassle swapping ICs.
So are the plastic ones better then the metal end ones? How does the plastic ended intercoolers perform?
Of course not. Alloy = more effective cooling. Get it sold! :wink:
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I had a standard GTI fmic and I switched to the early alloy ended S3. The S3 with alloy ends will cool better due to alloy ends plus it was nearly 15mm thicker core. I also added a forge twincooler but the S3 would've been sufficient.
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I was thinking about the plastic v alloy debate. Is there any documented proof that the alloy is better than the plastic ended ic. I dont think the key issue is with the end caps but mainly with flow rates. Alloy will actually retain more heat than the plastic. The plastic used on cars is heat resistant and actually has better thermal properties than alloy. If you touch any plastic plug or loom on a car it will be warm. You touch any alloy part on a car and it will be a lot hotter than the plastic. Id be more concerned about if there is any flow rate difference between the two ic rather than which has what on the ends.
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I was thinking about the plastic v alloy debate. Is there any documented proof that the alloy is better than the plastic ended ic. I dont think the key issue is with the end caps but mainly with flow rates. Alloy will actually retain more heat than the plastic. The plastic used on cars is heat resistant and actually has better thermal properties than alloy. If you touch any plastic plug or loom on a car it will be warm. You touch any alloy part on a car and it will be a lot hotter than the plastic. Id be more concerned about if there is any flow rate difference between the two ic rather than which has what on the ends.
This is interesting, I have the plastic ended inter cooler just not sure if I should sell it and get alloy ended one, your argument about it being cooler makes a lot of sense, also knowing the golf r and the 2010 s3's started getting the plastic ones so maybe they are better?
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As long as the core size is the same I can't see there being much difference tbh.
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Is there any documented proof that the alloy is better than the plastic ended ic.
I'm sure you'll find sufficient information if you try a Google search.
I dont think the key issue is with the end caps but mainly with flow rates.
......Id be more concerned about if there is any flow rate difference between the two ic rather than which has what on the ends.
If so remove the IC and install a proper hose. Best flow you can get. No cooling though.
Alloy will actually retain more heat than the plastic.
The most important thing is thermal conductivity. Alloy has a much better TC than any plastic.
That's why you don't find any radiator core made of plastic.
The plastic used on cars is heat resistant and actually has better thermal properties than alloy.
That's complete bullsh*t.
If you touch any plastic plug or loom on a car it will be warm. You touch any alloy part on a car and it will be a lot hotter than the plastic.
And that's why alloy is the (second) best (after copper) material to make radiators.
The only reason why Audi changed to plastic ends is cost savings. VAG use the same
IC on all 2.0 TSI/TFSIs. It's common knowledge the 'old' S3 IC works better though.
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Sammy, how much did you pay for the new intercooler?
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I disagree bruce. The plastic is heat resistant else it would melt and deform. It is a hardned plastic which name i forget. I know why they use alloy but the end caps are not in the direct air flow so wouldnt really aid in the cooling of the charge air. I was after back to back tests comparing the old s3 ic to the new ic. End caps dont mean a great deal unless by design they impede the flow of charged air. If the cores are the same size and the same internal design then they should have the same cooling properties. The newer cars dont have any issues when tuned with the ic with plastic ends.
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Heat resistance isn't the point. Thermal conductivity of all plastics is very very bad.
Unfortunately we aren't able to specify the differences in cooling and flow. APR
and others may have compared them. Feel free to search some data on the web.
No doubt the thicker core is better if you have a K04. But no doubt as well the 'old'
S3 full alloy IC has better cooling properties. And if I take the labour to swap the IC
I'd surely go for the better one. To me the newer hybrid IC isn't worth three hours
of work.
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I got mine for £120 delivered as new condition, And to be honest i also dont see the plastic ended ones being a problem really, All the golf R's, TT's and Mk6 GTI's are coming with them and when tuned they seem to be fine?
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I didn't say it's "a problem". I did say the full alloy S3 IC has better cooling properties.
Even the stock Mk.V GTI IC isn't any issue.
But why take the labour for such a tiny improvement? Make your own decision - it's
your time to spend.
:wink:
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Just been researching the differences on various american forums and they report no difference in the cooling characteristics as the core is the same and no impeded flow.
My point about the plastic end caps is that they will not absorb heat as much as the aluminium (not alloy) end ic when driving slowly in town traffic. I know plastic wont cool air flow but it wont allow it to get warmer than metal would either. Thats why they dont make air boxes out of metal, as they would just be a big heat sink with engine temps. So to some its a cost option but I dont see as its a real problem. After researching they use these as standard over in South Africa and they have much hotter conditions than us and dont report anything bad about them.
Id just stick the plastic ended ic and not worry too much about it Sammy.
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Just been researching the differences on various american forums and they report no difference in the cooling characteristics as the core is the same and no impeded flow.
My point about the plastic end caps is that they will not absorb heat as much as the aluminium (not alloy) end ic when driving slowly in town traffic. I know plastic wont cool air flow but it wont allow it to get warmer than metal would either. Thats why they dont make air boxes out of metal, as they would just be a big heat sink with engine temps. So to some its a cost option but I dont see as its a real problem. After researching they use these as standard over in South Africa and they have much hotter conditions than us and dont report anything bad about them.
Id just stick the plastic ended ic and not worry too much about it Sammy.
Thanks, I did read about various posts which were similar to the ones you have just said, It does make sense as long as the intercooler core size is the same as the alloy ended intercoolers then i really wont see much difference in both coolers
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Also this is the part number i have:
1K0 145 803 BP
Came from a mk6 GTI and i believe this is the same as the S3 intercooler (plastic ends)
Will i need different hoses to connect them to as opposed to the metal ended coolers?
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Just been researching the differences on various american forums and they report no difference in the cooling characteristics as the core is the same and no impeded flow.
My point about the plastic end caps is that they will not absorb heat as much as the aluminium (not alloy) end ic when driving slowly in town traffic. I know plastic wont cool air flow but it wont allow it to get warmer than metal would either. Thats why they dont make air boxes out of metal, as they would just be a big heat sink with engine temps.
Mk.V airboxes are placed inside the warm engine bay. The IC is placed in front of the radiator.
It's only job is to cool air. So it does make sense to make it from a material of proper thermal
conductivity. That's why the core is alloy. That's why high grade ICs are made of alloy com-
pletely. There is no advantage on plastic other than cost savings. Have a look at APR, Forge
or THS ICs. They have alloy ends. Audi won't have made the old S3 IC full alloy if there would
no advantage. It's nothing new they make things worse to save some cents.
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Im going to take a chance on one of these plastic ended ones, I can understand the Alloy end tank version would be better, but I doubt the difference would be noticable in our climate.
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The point im making is the end caps dont do anything to cool the air. Thats down to the radiator fins and the core, not the end caps. So it doesnt matter if they are plastic or metal, as they both ic cores will cool the charged air the same. There is no advantage over fitting the all alumininium ic to the one with plastic end caps. The ic is still in the engine bay on our cars and not a true front mounted intercooler like on evo where you can see them exposed in the bumper.
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Im going to take a chance on one of these plastic ended ones, I can understand the Alloy end tank version would be better, but I doubt the difference would be noticable in our climate.
When there aren't any differences so why swap the IC? Why don't you stay
with the stock IC? It's paid for and it doesn't need any labour.
The point im making is the end caps dont do anything to cool the air.
Ok, then all the engineers who designed the best ICs must be complete idiots?
:signLOL:
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Im going to take a chance on one of these plastic ended ones, I can understand the Alloy end tank version would be better, but I doubt the difference would be noticable in our climate.
When there aren't any differences so why swap the IC? Why don't you stay
with the stock IC? It's paid for and it doesn't need any labour.
Because he is still upgrading to S3 intercooler like me and that has a bigger core and will have benefits
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Do end caps cool the air? No. There purpose is to guide the air in and oit of the radiator core. Thats all.
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Do end caps cool the air? No. There purpose is to guide the air in and oit of the radiator core. Thats all.
Ok, it's pointless. You know it (better of course). And I don't have the time to repeat my self.
You both are looking for the answers you like to hear. If so you better don't ask. :wink:
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The point of the thread was to compare the differences between the metal and plastic ended s3 intercoolers. After research and reading about other peoples experiences on other forums , the conclusion was that they gave the same performance. Irrespective of what end caps they were. Im sorry if you dont agree but end caps dont cool the charged air. I know that as many moons ago when i first started tuning turbo cars. A very well known company who produces ic explained to me how the ic was put together and what each part did.
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You said two or three times that plastic would have advantages. I wonder
why another member gave you a 'thank you' for this complete nonsense. :jumping:
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Handbags at 20 paces :signLOL:
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Its not nonsense you dont have proof to back your point, With the people that already have it they dont complain about heatsoak
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What i said is that the plastic wouldnt be worse than the metal ended ic. People automatically think the all aluminium S3 ics are better than the newer ones. But they arent. What i said about the plastic ones is true that the performance wont suffer because of the material they are made of. I wouldnt have any issues with fitting a new S3 ic to my car. Hotter countries use them and get good results. I really dont know what the issue is. The issue isnt with what the end caps or tanks are made of and they dont do anything to aid cooling. They simply guide the air into the radiator core which does the cooling. If you follow the route of the air it goes from the ic into hoses and then a plastic throttle pipe to help keep the charged air cool in the engine bay. If the throttle pipe was made of metal it would heat up being so close to the engine. So having plastic in certain parts of the engine does help. I have never stated that the plastic would cool the air. I said the plastic wouldnt absorb as much heat from the engine temps. But as I stated the end caps dont do anything to aid cooling. The key point is flow rates. Both clearly cool the air the same so there is no advantage over fitting the metal one over the plastic one.
Gazon i agree. Though my missis has an endless supply of handbags to choose from :signLOL:
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And also dont forget we are in the UK, so intercooler would prove most usefull at summer time and i dont see the plastic ends limiting the cooling
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Let's face it given a choice I'm sure 90% of us would choose a cooler with metal end tanks over plastic. My opinion is metal is a better conductor of heat than plastic and because of that it means the end tanks of an all metal cooler will stay much hotter than plastic, I think we all agree on this. Therefore this means the metal tanks are dissipating heat better than the plastic ones would, so more heat is retained in the cooler by the plastic ones.
I expect the differences to be very small as the end tanks aren't supposed to cool, so I would buy either, but given a choice and if they were the same price metal would be my choice.
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This discussion is crazy :signLOL: I run a stage 2+ 2010 Audi S3 and have never had issues with heat soak etc. and my performance is staggering :pomppomp:
I can't see why Audi would bring out a facelift model and bring out an IC that would perform worse than the older 1??? :confused:
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I will at some point be fitting an S3 cooler to my Stage 2+ car and will be fitting the newer one. However trying to convince the missis that my car needs one is a different ball game altogether :rolleye:
Most reputable after market ics are very over engineered and thats a testament to the company producing them.
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Hey, you already forgot you wrote this nonsense?
My point about the plastic end caps is that they will not absorb heat as much as the aluminium (not alloy) end ic when driving slowly in town traffic. I know plastic wont cool air flow but it wont allow it to get warmer than metal would either.
And this:
Alloy will actually retain more heat than the plastic. The plastic used on cars is heat resistant and actually has better thermal properties than alloy. If you touch any plastic plug or loom on a car it will be warm. You touch any alloy part on a car and it will be a lot hotter than the plastic. Id be more concerned about if there is any flow rate difference between the two ic rather than which has what on the ends.
And this:
I disagree bruce. The plastic is heat resistant else it would melt and deform. It is a hardned plastic which name i forget. I know why they use alloy but the end caps are not in the direct air flow so wouldnt really aid in the cooling of the charge air. I was after back to back tests comparing the old s3 ic to the new ic. End caps dont mean a great deal unless by design they impede the flow of charged air. If the cores are the same size and the same internal design then they should have the same cooling properties. The newer cars dont have any issues when tuned with the ic with plastic ends.
:signLOL:
This discussion is crazy :signLOL: I run a stage 2+ 2010 Audi S3 and have never had issues with heat soak etc. and my performance is staggering :pomppomp:
I can't see why Audi would bring out a facelift model and bring out an IC that would perform worse than the older 1??? :confused:
You really believe 'newer is better'? :grin:
There where dozens of detail getting worse on the Golf the last couple of years.
Blue to green tinted window, cheaper rear lid hinges, no anodized lid gas pressure springs,
vinyl instead of leather shiift boot and many many more.
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So whats your point Bruce. The fact is the older isnt better and both do the job equally as well. What cant you understand. The quotes you have so keenly copied above to prove I dont know what. The points raised just state that the plastic wont affect performance. But you seem blinded by not seeing the wood for the trees. Explain what is nonsense about what I stated. You cant seem to accept that the older isnt better and both perform equally. If you can bring some solid proof that the older is better then please feel free to do so. You seem to not understand that the end tanks or caps have nothing to do with cooling so it doesnt matter what they are made of. Plastic wont get heatsoaked and thats what i tried to explain so it wont detract from the performance of the ic.
:popcornsoda:
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The reason for my upgrade is simple, an S3 cooler is proven to flow better and I can get the plastic end caps version for I've 50% less, no brainer for me!
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So whats your point Bruce.
The point is you said and still say wrong things. You said plastic was better.
Guess you went for the newer S3 IC (without knowing about the difference)
an now you search for arguments. Can't you stand you made a mistake?
The fact is the older isnt better and both do the job equally as well.
Fact? Any prove? No. You know my understanding is different. :wink:
What cant you understand.
I do understand if somebody honestly says he gets the plastic end IC für 50 % less
and is able to fit it on his own, but I don't understand somebody telling there aren't
any differences in physical properties (based on tellings and hearsay).
Get what you want if it's cheap (or not), but don't tell other forum members myths.
If the older S3 IC is almost the same price I'd only go for this.
Just my 0.02 $.
:smiley:
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Maybe this will settle the argument between you both :smiley:
http://www.are.com.au/techtalk/intecoolersMR.htm#Tanks
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So if anyone puts anything on here or other forums about what they have experienced is hearsay and myth. Hmmmmm :laugh:
If you do research on the topic will find what i said about the plastic is accurate. That why its used on cars for standard intakes, looms, plugs, clips etc. Plastic doesnt absorb heat like metal and has the ability to keep cooler. Try touching your oe engine cover after a drive and then try touching an aftermarket intake pipe. See which retains the heat more. I know my intake pipe got very very hot to touch. That isnt saying the plastic cools the air better. Thats saying the plastic doesnt absorb heat like metal and as such wont affect the performance of the ic
I havent purchased an S3 cooler yet but will do later in the year.
It has been fun holding a conversation with you Bruce and it hasnt resorted to name calling. But i do feel the need to do this :P :happy2:
Thanks Carl as what it says in there is that it is more about design than material and what I said about heatsoak was correct.
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FWIW i have the Alloy ended S3 Intercooler which i will be installing next week. But i have had it for about 4 years now and kept it from my last car.
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This thread gets funnier everytime i read it. Keep up the good work guys :signLOL:
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This thread gets funnier everytime i read it. Keep up the good work guys :signLOL:
Happy to help Gazon...or is that myth or hearsay :rolleye:
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Sod it make the whole cooler plastic :grin:
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This thread gets funnier everytime i read it. Keep up the good work guys :signLOL:
Happy to help Gazon...or is that myth or hearsay :rolleye:
He read it on a few forums, but it is yet to be proven :drinking:
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If you do research on the topic will find what i said about the plastic is accurate. That why its used on cars for standard intakes, looms, plugs, clips etc. Plastic doesnt absorb heat like metal and has the ability to keep cooler. Try touching your oe engine cover after a drive and then try touching an aftermarket intake pipe. See which retains the heat more. I know my intake pipe got very very hot to touch. That isnt saying the plastic cools the air better. Thats saying the plastic doesnt absorb heat like metal and as such wont affect the performance of the ic
We talk about an interCOOLER. Thermal conductivity is the main important thing for it to work.
Heat is tranfered from one medium to another medium. That's the job of each radiator.
Otherwise they'd made it from plastic. There is no sense in using plastic other than cost saving.
It's pointless. You didn't get it and you never will. :wink:
Maybe this will settle the argument between you both :smiley:
http://www.are.com.au/techtalk/intecoolersMR.htm#Tanks
Thanks. It must be feared that 56Octy doesn't have the basic physical understanding to
understand it. Arguments are senseless to him. He still finds the lower thermal conductivity
to be useful on a radiator.
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Cost saving or not. It doesnt matter because they both work the same as the end tanks do squat to cool the air. Read VRSCarls link and it will all be explained as I said and the article confirms what I have been saying. All I have been saying is that the plastic is no detriment to how the intercooler works or performs. Have a read and see that the myths I have been saying are very accurtate myths.
It does mention that the metal end tanks can get heat soaked and take time to recover when in traffic. However its about design and not the material they are made of. You still dont understand that end tanks do not cool the air. So it doesnt matter whether or not its made of metal or plastic. The core does the cooling and as the cores are the same in both IC, they cool the same.
You argument about the plastic is that is has a low thermal conductivity. So if the plastic does not conduct heat like metal. Then the end tanks wont get as hot in traffic. So that means less heatsoak on the end tanks, so surely that would be a good thing for an IC. But ultimatley they both work THE SAME.
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i think what 56OctyVRS is trying to say is that there's no flow over the end tanks, so their thermal convection properties are irrelevant. if anything, you want them to be poor absorbers of heat (i.e. made of plastic), because otherwise they'd store heat from the engine bay and warm your cool intake air as it passed through!
the core is the bit that cools the air as atmospheric air flows over it, and as this is unchanged, it's ability to cool air has not been affected.
i think on principle alone this makes sense, however NEITHER of you can say one is better than the other without objective proof which neither of you have. i'd let the OP make his own conclusion and leave it at that.
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Thanks SUB39H :happy2: I have always advocated they are equal in performance and thats from looking at other forums from the States, South Africa, Australia and seeing and reading peoples data and experiences.
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Easier just to have got a THS and be done with it...
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Thats why i bought a vf :signLOL: its the shizzle don't ya know.
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:wink:
:signLOL: