MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: berg on April 30, 2012, 10:34:41 pm
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Have been considering the above and have found some good threads on it - one from Janner Sy was informative - but did you actually get it in the end Sy?
The benefits seem clear but have some questions about possible risks/costs -
1.) How likely is throttle body damage/ damage to valve stem seals? Or does this only present itself if installed badly/injected at the wrong point?
2.) How much does methanol cost and can you store it safely in your garage/shed or with it being highly flammable do you have to make special arrangements?
3.) Bacillus made a comment about methanol not getting on well with aluminium. Is this a comment linked to storage or the effect of methanol on any engine components?
4.) Do you have to have a controller to be able to tell if the car is out of mix and therefore switch to different setting on your SPS if you have Revo?
5.) Do Revo themselves have any comments themselves on the above working in conjunction with their maps?
Thanks for any comments :notworthy:
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I've been told that methanol can rot aluminium hence my comment. Not sure if it's just the neat stuff that does it...
With a revo map you should be able to up boost (if you're not already at 9), increase timing and run very lean with W/M.
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I spent a huge amount of time looking into this. There's alot of positives but also a risk which put me off. I've managed to talk myself out of it twice now though on different engines
There's no doubting the gains thougg
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May be worth Speaking to R-Tech Nick or James on here. Nick has mapped James K04 converted GTI on water meth :laugh:
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I spent a huge amount of time looking into this. There's alot of positives but also a risk which put me off. I've managed to talk myself out of it twice now though on different engines
There's no doubting the gains thougg
Thanks Sy, and where the risks the ones I have highlighted or are there some others too?
Yes, might speak to James/Nick.
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I've been told that methanol can rot aluminium hence my comment. Not sure if it's just the neat stuff that does it...
With a revo map you should be able to up boost (if you're not already at 9), increase timing and run very lean with W/M.
Would you consider it Ayoub? Or would you not touch it?
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Currently being tried and tested by Hurdy. Installed by Statlers IIRC.
I'm sure he'll be along here soon to post about it.
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Currently being tried and tested by Hurdy. Installed by Statlers IIRC.
I'm sure he'll be along here soon to post about it.
Robin, may I ask what you know about it seeing as I know you consider the merits of every mod very carefully in respect of longetivity of your car?
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^^^^
Water Meth is not something I have given any serious thought to other than it's not for me personally. Same as a K04 conversion is not for me. I'm not suggesting it's bad for a car but only that it delivers more than I want from my GTI. Doesn't also sacrifice boot space? If I was after a lot more power etc I would probably buy a more powerful OEM car and take it from there. :happy2:
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This is my (possibly misinformed) view on water meth.
Get water meth if :-
You want maximum BHP on the rollers for maximum willy waving
You want to do lots of 1/4 mile runs.
You want to wring the most out of your engine
Don't get water meth if:-
You want reliable safe (subjective) power 100% of the time
You don't want to have to faff about remembering to fill up the reservoir and mix correct ratios of water/meth
Also what the insurance stance on water/meth?
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This is my (possibly misinformed) view on water meth.
Get water meth if :-
You want maximum BHP on the rollers for maximum willy waving
You want to do lots of 1/4 mile runs.
You want to wring the most out of your engine
Don't get water meth if:-
You want reliable safe (subjective) power 100% of the time
You don't want to have to faff about remembering to fill up the reservoir and mix correct ratios of water/meth
Also what the insurance stance on water/meth?
Good points Rich, and yes I meant to mention the insurance aspect in my original post as am unsure of their stance. The other thing you mention also puts me off - having to keep filling up the reservoir and mixing your own mix as Boost juice cant be shipped out of the States. I dont think will be going for it but am still interested to learn more about it and hear from the people who are actaully running it on a day to day basis :happy2:
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^^^^
What Rich says is pretty much how it is. Hurdy loves the 1/4 mile and track day lap times. Having shared a room with him a few times I'm glad he's not a willy waver!
I'm going for longevity and my next 100,000 miles of fun!:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FMods%2FRED_RedDevil.jpg&hash=50be2034679a8066c1e9f1fec47d179a90c99cd1)
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I am going to get water meth fitted before inters. I am stage 2+ on a k03. I am not really bothered about going k04 just yet as i want to know how well the k03 will handle it. As i said, i will be at inters so hoping to get into low 14s maybe 13s bracket with it. :happy2:
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If you're running a modified car then run it for safety over it being required to make the power IMO. Have run various setups on my old scoob but always made sure it was for 'just in case' as it was mapped pretty close to the limit.
Fish
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Ive had WMI installed for a few years now, no problems so far.
Ive not yet seen the benefits, as the car is only just being mapped this week to take advantage of it.
WMI can be a replacement to 104 race fuel, so:
1. you can run a race fuel program, like APR have.
or
2. you can up the timing on your Revo SPS or via custom mapping.
Gains depend on the mapping and what the power is already/mods.
Some people run just water and see gains.
Most people run a 50/50 mix which makes it safety and less combustable.
I purchase the Meth and distilled water from people on Ebay, then just go an collect. I actually store it in suitable 25 litre plastic HDPE containers. the sellers can normally supply these. Think its about £15 for 20/25 litres of meth and a bit cheaper for water.
How long it lasts depends on the throttle usage, when it is set to come on, and how big the nozzle/pump is.
I use my washer fluid tank to store it, whilst it stills functions as a windscreen washer ok. (washer fluid normally has methanol in it anyway).
I just top it up every month or so, or when i feel it might be going low.
It doesnt matter too much is it runs out as the engine will just pull back the timing.
Its declared on my insurance no problems.
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thanks Dan, still not convinced would go for it but feel much more informed now :happy2:
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What you not convinced about?
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I would like to get this done, i can trust myself installing it but i would prefer to get it installed/setup on a proper rolling road.
Anyone for the Southeast to do this ?
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Jabbasport in Peterborough will yes, and they are the UK distributor for snow performance kits.
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I decided against it each time as its just something to go wrong.
For m current car i was having big heat issues so WMI seemed like a very good fix, but the new intercooler/rad sorted out all the heat problem and since the little 1.4TSI isnt exactly known for reliability i thought id leave the WMI out. One less thig to go wrong
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WMI is to be used for combustion efficiency, on its own merits there is very very little gains to be had.
With all petrol turbo cars the onset of knock/pre combustion/det/pinking it a limiting factor for power, the knock limits the amount of timing and boost with limits potential power.
With the 1.8T k03s engine I am setting and tuning the WMI to spray on to the ait intake temps sensor which lowers the air temp reading the ecu is seeing, the ecu uses a map called "Delta Zündwinkel im Warmlauf" this map is a timing correction factor based on air temp vs rpm. With the WMI active the air temp reading can drop from 30-40deg to 8-10deg with in a split second under full load. We can use the lower temp reading on the correction map to add more ignition advance around 8-10deg (temp) in most cases upto 7deg more timing which works out to be an avg of 25lbft and 15bhp just on a small K03s 1.8T.
I have found 100% to give best power gains but not done any testing on how safe it is??
I have only tuned one TFSI BWA K04 with WMI and pushed the balls off it with timing making around 390-403bhp avg on the dyno and max correction at the extream is -5cf, without the WMI I would be seeing -12cf+ and at a point where the ecu map is pulling the boost away to save the engine and maybe only 360-370bhp tops.
If your not going to push your TFSI hard then IMO its not worth going for WMI as the TFSI engine in design works well to suppress pre combustion.
If your running stage2+ and have the ability to dial timing in via an SPS switch then the WMI system is a good investement for you imo.
I am sure over the next few months there will be more TFSI customers coming in for map with WMI which means I can collect data and come up with remap ideas like the methods used on the 1.8T engine I tune.
Nice story....
on my own sprint car Golf AUM with home made hybrid turbo to 300bhp then NOS to take it to a little under 400bhp, to get the car to make good power top end I had to fully remove the knock control intervention from the ecu map (running without knock sensor) I had to tune my map live using det cans and head phones to listen for the onset of knock, this was all done with the aid of devils own DV30 WMI kit.
My car would run 12.5s 1/4 at pod and would run with zero knock and 100% safe............... until my WMI controller failed as Santa Pod and ended up with melted pistion, valves and spark on cylinder number 3. But this was running the bollox of my engine with stock manifold to prove a point, the WMI can work miracles when working correct.......
Racing my wife and as I go over the line in 3rd gear around 7800rpm my engine melts.. :ashamed:
&feature=channel&list=UL
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I'm not familiar with the effect Methanol has on car components (aluminim heads / valve / pistons), but handling methanol in the process / oil and gas industries is a constant problem (failure of vessels / pipework). Probably not too big a deal for transient use in a car, but I'd imagine prolonged usage could cause accelerated degradation of parts in contact with methanol.
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There are no risks with running WMI.
But if your worried just sell your TFSI and buy a Nissan Micra........... &feature=relmfu :surprised:
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Meth can be nasty stuff to humans, but I take the precautions and use chemical gloves and goggles when handling just in case.
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Someone just posted this on golfgti forum make awesome reading... :happy2:
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html
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thanks nick, interesting reading and Dan I meant I am not convinced it is for me
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Why even bother to inject it?
Just chuck it in the fuel and have the car mapped to suit.
I run 30% in the impreza. 210 litre drum is £100 ish :wink:
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Why even bother to inject it?
Just chuck it in the fuel and have the car mapped to suit.
I run 30% in the impreza. 210 litre drum is £100 ish :wink:
interesting take on it, but if you stick straight in the fuel there will be no water element will there and is that not a crucial part of the equation?
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Why even bother to inject it?
Just chuck it in the fuel and have the car mapped to suit.
I run 30% in the impreza. 210 litre drum is £100 ish :wink:
interesting take on it, but if you stick straight in the fuel there will be no water element will there and is that not a crucial part of the equation?
The water in water injection lowers the charge temp therefore making the burn more efficient.
The methanol burns more efficiently due to higher octane level, it also burns cooler.
I have heard a lot of incidents with people ruining engine when water injection fails, be it a pump failure, nozzle blockage etc.
To me the risks with water injection are to high.
Here is a link to a video of a guy who maps my impreza running straight methanol with no water injection.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X_KcPU25YoM
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mmmm, interesting stuff