MK5 Golf GTI
General => Random Chat => Topic started by: Andy on May 14, 2012, 09:21:07 pm
-
Now i know people got hanged that were innocent but with todays dna tests it is 99.9% proof
-
Technically, the death penalty still exists under EU Law. Now that all six euro treaty's were signed :fighting: the death penalty can apply in times of war, perils of war, riot and insurrection. TECHNICALLY, the British Constitution ended on 1st Jan 2009...read it on the 'ternet, true story bro. ROFLMAO.
-
Probably not the best topic to discuss on a car forum IMO. Everyone has their opinion but this isn't the place really.
-
When I saw the thread title I thought you'd returned to your car in supermarket carpark to find a dent / scratch :grin:
-
If you kill someone with intent you should have your life taken away from you. (IMVHO)
-
What about that City game yesterday eh?! Mental!
-
Shoot'em it would be cheaper only a couple of pence for a standard Nato round isn't it.
We have tried for many decades now to rehabilitate prisoners and prison numbers continue to grow, so we don't seem to be moving to a high place. We (society) and marketing companies have created an instant gratification society where the acquisition of material goods is seen as been the big thing. Time we all learned respect for ourselves and others and that you have to be happy from within and taking away what someone else has should not be tolerate. Lets remember that for the most part there are very few people who are hunger or cold in this country, so why behave in this way.
There are shipyard workers in Greece earning 5-600 euros a month and we have welfare groups over here saying it is not fair to limit a family to £500 a week in benefits.
Then there are the psycologist and probation boards that have to decide if someone is fit to be released back into society, and unfortunately sometimes they get it wrong and more innocent people suffer.
Tis one f**ked up system which ain't ever gonna be fixed.
-
Probably not the best topic to discuss on a car forum IMO. Everyone has their opinion but this isn't the place really.
thats why its in random chat :signLOL:
When I saw the thread title I thought you'd returned to your car in supermarket carpark to find a dent / scratch :grin:
keep well away from them mike take my g/f golf or the 8 seater
-
What about that City game yesterday eh?! Mental!
:signLOL:
Agree with the Death Penalty.
As mentioned if you kill with intent (premeditated) then your fair game. If there's ANY doubt or ambiguity then life (and I mean life not 5-10 years with good behaviour, incredible system where you can murder etc and as long as your contrite and behave yourself we will let out early so that you can to do it again) inprisonment.
Am all for public execution as well, maybe sell tickets (we need to use that Olympic stadium for something after July), will raise money for the depleted exchequer and why limit yourself to hanging, I quite like the idea in some Muslim countries where the victims/victims families are included in handing down the punishments.
Great thread BTW
:happy2:
-
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.tumblr.com%2Fydxy7us%2F1h3lxibm5%2Ftumblr_lmxlb8tffa1qziv06o1_1280.jpg&hash=a00b586e918d2f2f3184fce12b92a206f6a296f6)
-
Being honest I don't like anyone taking someones life it's such a precious thing to lose
-
In China they had to stop publicising when and where the executions were taking place as they became too popular with the spectators. :confused:
-
Being honest I don't like anyone taking someones life it's such a precious thing to lose
Very true... so what punishment do you suggest? If i came to your house and shot a family member, what would a suitable punishment be for me?
-
Being honest I don't like anyone taking someones life it's such a precious thing to lose
Very true... so what punishment do you suggest? If i came to your house and shot a family member, what would a suitable punishment be for me?
100%. :congrats:
I had this very discussion with a load of guys at work.
An eye for an eye etc.
On the flip side of the coin I would also introduce a leg and arm removal for all yobs when proven guilty. Eg. A yob/hoody walks down your street and kicks your wing mirror off your car. He's caught on CCTV doing the deed and is guilty beyond reasonable doubt!!! Have his leg removed, or if he used his arm to do it, remove that - publicly if need be. Trust me when I tell you that hoody/yob behaviour would drop drastically, and so would knife crime etc....
This country is far too much of a soft touch!!
:stupid:
-
Eye for an Eye, very much agree.
Murderers and paedophiles should be shot in the head (this way their blood and organs can be immediately removed and put to good use for those who need them), Rapists castrated (Not chemically, I mean physically!, even go as far as saying lop off his nob, leave him half an inch so he can piss but thats it! ) and car thieves should be strapped in an old banger and driven off the end of a cliff.
Known gang members/troublemakers should be forced to wear a shock collar (Tazer) around their necks that knock them out if they leave the house outside curfews.
And problem kids should be dealt with like in Singapore (Violence/Graffiti/drugs/criminal damage etc) they should get whipped with a split bamboo cane a dozen times.
Would soon bring crime levels down.
Drink drivers, not sure what to do with them, perhaps buy them a bus pass, maybe that would be punishment enough :grin:
-
Eye for an Eye, very much agree.
Murderers and paedophiles should be shot in the head (this way their blood and organs can be immediately removed and put to good use for those who need them), Rapists castrated (Not chemically, I mean physically!, even go as far as saying lop off his nob, leave him half an inch so he can piss but thats it! ) and car thieves should be strapped in an old banger and driven off the end of a cliff.
Known gang members/troublemakers should be forced to wear a shock collar (Tazer) around their necks that knock them out if they leave the house outside curfews.
And problem kids should be dealt with like in Singapore (Violence/Graffiti/drugs/criminal damage etc) they should get whipped with a split bamboo cane a dozen times.
Would soon bring crime levels down.
Drink drivers, not sure what to do with them, perhaps buy them a bus pass, maybe that would be punishment enough :grin:
:signLOL:
-
Just because the law says you shall not kill, doesn't mean the law has the right to kill you if you disobey
What happens when you get the evidence wrong, there is no coming back from being dead, how many times have people been found guilty and then found that there was injustice and released
You have to be pretty sure that you are murdering the right person, not 99.% sure but 100% sure, not even DNA testing can give you that assurance
-
Just because the law says you shall not kill, doesn't mean the law has the right to kill you if you disobey
What happens when you get the evidence wrong, there is no coming back from being dead, how many times have people been found guilty and then found that there was injustice and released
this is the aggrument why it will never be brought back..but there is a lot that should hang that are in prison
You have to be pretty sure that you are murdering the right person, not 99.% sure but 100% sure, not even DNA testing can give you that assurance
-
Eye for an Eye, very much agree.
Murderers and paedophiles should be shot in the head (this way their blood and organs can be immediately removed and put to good use for those who need them), Rapists castrated (Not chemically, I mean physically!, even go as far as saying lop off his nob, leave him half an inch so he can piss but thats it! ) and car thieves should be strapped in an old banger and driven off the end of a cliff.
Known gang members/troublemakers should be forced to wear a shock collar (Tazer) around their necks that knock them out if they leave the house outside curfews.
And problem kids should be dealt with like in Singapore (Violence/Graffiti/drugs/criminal damage etc) they should get whipped with a split bamboo cane a dozen times.
Would soon bring crime levels down.
Drink drivers, not sure what to do with them, perhaps buy them a bus pass, maybe that would be punishment enough :grin:
:congrats: I'd vote for you!!
Just because the law says you shall not kill, doesn't mean the law has the right to kill you if you disobey
What happens when you get the evidence wrong, there is no coming back from being dead, how many times have people been found guilty and then found that there was injustice and released
You have to be pretty sure that you are murdering the right person, not 99.% sure but 100% sure, not even DNA testing can give you that assurance
Capital punishment is final and should only be for cases with no doubt involved and yes I can see how the wrong person can and will be excecuted wrongly. It should be used for 2 reasons straight away:-
1. Gets rid of people like Huntley, Hindley and Sutcliffe to name but a few scum we all know are guilty.
2. It's a deterrent
:happy2:
-
Back up your claim that it's a deterrent. Come on, statistics...
Or was that a guess?
-
Being honest I don't like anyone taking someones life it's such a precious thing to lose
Very true... so what punishment do you suggest? If i came to your house and shot a family member, what would a suitable punishment be for me?
What I am saying is I don't understand why anyone would take a persons life it's beyond me. An accident is something that can't be helped but to want to kill someone I can't get my head around it
-
When I saw the thread title I thought you'd returned to your car in supermarket carpark to find a dent / scratch :grin:
+1 with bells on :grin:
-
I'd bring in hard labour in prisons. Strip all their TV's, playstations, Facebook access, and comfortable cells and make the cells like those in America with just an uncomfortable bed with one open wall of bars only. If I came to power, they'd work 7 days a week, 12 hours a day doing constructive work that the government could sell to make money to help pay our debts and reduce the burden on law abiding taxpayers.
Prisons are like holiday camps, so they become institutionalised very easily, and often go out and commit crime immediately because they actually want to get back in!
They can't lose, if they get away with the crimes, they make money, and if they get caught, it's back to Butlins!
Prisons should be cold, uncomfortable, boring and blo*dy hard work if they are to act as a deterent.
-
Back up your claim that it's a deterrent. Come on, statistics...
Or was that a guess?
OK, I'll help. There are no statistics that prove that capital punishment is a deterrent. In fact the murder rates of US states that enforce the death penalty are considerably higher than those that do not, and there are very few criminologists who think that abolishing the death penalty in these states would reduce the number of murders. There is no use thinking that it is a deterrent, it needs to be backed up by hard facts, which it isn't unfortunately.
-
Being honest I don't like anyone taking someones life it's such a precious thing to lose
Very true... so what punishment do you suggest? If i came to your house and shot a family member, what would a suitable punishment be for me?
....That's an easy one, Rich: Death by choking on your own scotch eggs. OR, Hedge and his special cloth and doubtless with Thor in attendance. Which would you choose? :evilgrin:
Good subject btw - This is what Random Chat for. Although it is a very emotive subject where total agreement can never be reached.
-
Think is not all America enforce the death penalty,Saudi would be a better example
-
Back up your claim that it's a deterrent. Come on, statistics...
Or was that a guess?
OK, I'll help. There are no statistics that prove that capital punishment is a deterrent. In fact the murder rates of US states that enforce the death penalty are considerably higher than those that do not, and there are very few criminologists who think that abolishing the death penalty in these states would reduce the number of murders. There is no use thinking that it is a deterrent, it needs to be backed up by hard facts, which it isn't unfortunately.
Im not so sure its about been a deterrent per se. For me, if someone murdered someone close to me, knowing that the murderer had had his life taken too would help bring closure. To know that the sub-human-sumbag-c*** would be released from prison after ~10-15 years would be a very bitter pill to swallow.
-
Now i know people got hanged that were innocent but with todays dna tests it is 99.9% proof
You answer your own argument. If DNA is 99.9% reliable there is still 0.01% of doubt. There can be no doubt.
Plus there are arguments that DNA can be manipulated, planted, or mishandled by the police. Take the Meredith Kercher case for example where DNA evidence was contaminated by sloppy Police work.
-
Think is not all America enforce the death penalty,Saudi would be a better example
Do you have statistics that prove it is a deterrent though? Without them it's an empty argument I'm afraid.
-
Now i know people got hanged that were innocent but with todays dna tests it is 99.9% proof
You answer your own argument. If DNA is 99.9% reliable there is still 0.01% of doubt. There can be no doubt.
Plus there are arguments that DNA can be manipulated, planted, or mishandled by the police. Take the Meredith Kercher case for example where DNA evidence was contaminated by sloppy Police work.
It's a double edge sword because you get the likes of the Yorkshire ripper etc who are proven guilty
-
Prisons are like holiday camps, so they become institutionalised very easily, and often go out and commit crime immediately because they actually want to get back in!
They can't lose, if they get away with the crimes, they make money, and if they get caught, it's back to Butlins!
Prisons should be cold, uncomfortable, boring and blo*dy hard work if they are to act as a deterent.
....Er, contrary to popular belief, HM Prisons are far from holiday camps. The biggest punishment is the total curtailment of the freedoms which we folks outside experience every day.
My 'prison experience' has been visiting a close friend (every week) for a year while he was on remand in Brixton and then Wandsworth - An American Indian mate who wouldn't grass on his friends. Also, another friend (very wealthy Old Etonian chappie) did 2 years for financial fraud in The City - They made an example of him. He's just as wealthy after his experience and has some new friends! Being a Public School boy doubtless helped him survive.
It doesn't look like a holiday camp to me. Overcrowding conditions etc is also well known.
Be aware that it's a thin line.
-
Very true... so what punishment do you suggest? If i came to your house and shot a family member, what would a suitable punishment be for me?
People argue that the death penalty brings closure to those who have lost loved ones. I'd argue that you'll never really know what brings closure until you're in that position. I'd also argue that the death penalty provides insufficient retribution. Death is final, it ends a persons suffering. Life imprisonment without parole causes much more suffering to the offender than a painless death after a short period of imprisonment.
-
By the way, in saying that I don't mean to condone retribution. I think it's morally flawed, and in reality is just a sanitised form of ugly, brutal vengeance. It's completely inappropriate for modern, civilised society.
-
^^^^
I'm agreeing with both your posts, Andrew.
Seeking vengeance in the form of a death sentence is a natural reaction and emotion but that doesn't make it right. Having said that, if I catch you scratching my beloved car, you are dead! It's just a matter of time! :evilgrin: :laugh:
-
By the way, in saying that I don't mean to condone retribution. I think it's morally flawed, and in reality is just a sanitised form of ugly, brutal vengeance. It's completely inappropriate for modern, civilised society.
I completely agree with you there Andrew. In a modern society, there is no place for us to take the lives of others. I do however believe that there are a certain group of criminals that deserve no chance of rehabilitation back into society. The kind of people who rape, calculated murderers, pedophiles etc should be put in jail in awful conditions and see out there days in there. A life sentence to mean a life sentence. The only time they come out of that jail is in a Co-op standard ply box!
I would hate to see our justice system come close to somewhere like the US'. It clearly doesn't work.
-
By the way, in saying that I don't mean to condone retribution. I think it's morally flawed, and in reality is just a sanitised form of ugly, brutal vengeance. It's completely inappropriate for modern, civilised society.
I completely agree with you there Andrew. In a modern society, there is no place for us to take the lives of others. I do however believe that there are a certain group of criminals that deserve no chance of rehabilitation back into society. The kind of people who rape, calculated murderers, pedophiles etc should be put in jail in awful conditions and see out there days in there. A life sentence to mean a life sentence. The only time they come out of that jail is in a Co-op standard ply box!
I would hate to see our justice system come close to somewhere like the US'. It clearly doesn't work.
But why should "we" the taxpayers fund their prison lifestyles?, unless they are working hard labour and paying for their own keep and making a profit that the gov can use to reduce national debt (or make the roads better :happy2:) then they shold be disposed of as they bring nothing to society apart from crime and grief for others.
-
By the way, in saying that I don't mean to condone retribution. I think it's morally flawed, and in reality is just a sanitised form of ugly, brutal vengeance. It's completely inappropriate for modern, civilised society.
I completely agree with you there Andrew. In a modern society, there is no place for us to take the lives of others. I do however believe that there are a certain group of criminals that deserve no chance of rehabilitation back into society. The kind of people who rape, calculated murderers, pedophiles etc should be put in jail in awful conditions and see out there days in there. A life sentence to mean a life sentence. The only time they come out of that jail is in a Co-op standard ply box!
I would hate to see our justice system come close to somewhere like the US'. It clearly doesn't work.
But why should "we" the taxpayers fund their prison lifestyles?, unless they are working hard labour and paying for their own keep and making a profit that the gov can use to reduce national debt (or make the roads better :happy2:) then they shold be disposed of as they bring nothing to society apart from crime and grief for others.
Yet again, a misinformed opinion. For a start it is ridiculous to think of justice in financial terms, but more importantly the legal costs of Capital Punishment are many, many times more than that of lifetime imprisonment without parole. I think the average cost in the US is $23m for each person condemned to death.
-
I knew the "cost to the taxpayer" argument would rear it's ugly head. Back it up with facts people, or your arguments mean nothing.
-
Being honest I don't like anyone taking someones life it's such a precious thing to lose
Very true... so what punishment do you suggest? If i came to your house and shot a family member, what would a suitable punishment be for me?
No waffles for a year?
-
Prisons are like holiday camps, so they become institutionalised very easily, and often go out and commit crime immediately because they actually want to get back in!
They can't lose, if they get away with the crimes, they make money, and if they get caught, it's back to Butlins!
Prisons should be cold, uncomfortable, boring and blo*dy hard work if they are to act as a deterent.
....Er, contrary to popular belief, HM Prisons are far from holiday camps. The biggest punishment is the total curtailment of the freedoms which we folks outside experience every day.
My 'prison experience' has been visiting a close friend (every week) for a year while he was on remand in Brixton and then Wandsworth - An American Indian mate who wouldn't grass on his friends. Also, another friend (very wealthy Old Etonian chappie) did 2 years for financial fraud in The City - They made an example of him. He's just as wealthy after his experience and has some new friends! Being a Public School boy doubtless helped him survive.
It doesn't look like a holiday camp to me. Overcrowding conditions etc is also well known.
Be aware that it's a thin line.
But Robin, do you not think that TV's digital radios, Playstations and Facebook access are not luxuries that make it too comfortable? I have come across repeat offenders who have personally bragged to me about how cushtie it is in there, and they have no fear of going back inside. They also brag about how little work they do in there.
In order to rehabilitate more effectively I think they should be made to work incredibly hard to repay their debt to society, and also have little or no luxuries, so it holds no attraction whatsoever.
-
By the way, in saying that I don't mean to condone retribution. I think it's morally flawed, and in reality is just a sanitised form of ugly, brutal vengeance. It's completely inappropriate for modern, civilised society.
I completely agree with you there Andrew. In a modern society, there is no place for us to take the lives of others. I do however believe that there are a certain group of criminals that deserve no chance of rehabilitation back into society. The kind of people who rape, calculated murderers, pedophiles etc should be put in jail in awful conditions and see out there days in there. A life sentence to mean a life sentence. The only time they come out of that jail is in a Co-op standard ply box!
I would hate to see our justice system come close to somewhere like the US'. It clearly doesn't work.
But why should "we" the taxpayers fund their prison lifestyles?, unless they are working hard labour and paying for their own keep and making a profit that the gov can use to reduce national debt (or make the roads better :happy2:) then they shold be disposed of as they bring nothing to society apart from crime and grief for others.
Yet again, a misinformed opinion. For a start it is ridiculous to think of justice in financial terms, but more importantly the legal costs of Capital Punishment are many, many times more than that of lifetime imprisonment without parole. I think the average cost in the US is $23m for each person condemned to death.
Misinformed?, dont think so!, the average prisoner costs more to "Care for in prison" than the average person earns each year!!, so not only are these people NOT contributing to society they are actually costing taxpayers money, its a double whammy!!.
Take a peek at the UK Justice accounts for breakdowns.
http://www.justice.gov.uk/downloads/statistics/hmps/prison-costs-summary-10-11.pdf/
Roughly £28k per prisoner per year, £3.15 Billion last year providing 3 meals, Playstations, Sky TV etc
-
By the way, in saying that I don't mean to condone retribution. I think it's morally flawed, and in reality is just a sanitised form of ugly, brutal vengeance. It's completely inappropriate for modern, civilised society.
I completely agree with you there Andrew. In a modern society, there is no place for us to take the lives of others. I do however believe that there are a certain group of criminals that deserve no chance of rehabilitation back into society. The kind of people who rape, calculated murderers, pedophiles etc should be put in jail in awful conditions and see out there days in there. A life sentence to mean a life sentence. The only time they come out of that jail is in a Co-op standard ply box!
I would hate to see our justice system come close to somewhere like the US'. It clearly doesn't work.
But why should "we" the taxpayers fund their prison lifestyles?, unless they are working hard labour and paying for their own keep and making a profit that the gov can use to reduce national debt (or make the roads better :happy2:) then they shold be disposed of as they bring nothing to society apart from crime and grief for others.
Because thats what a civilised society does! Would you rather not pay tax and live in a largely lawless state?? where you have to pay for protection or get mugged or your kids get raped?? Extreme but think about it! why shouldn't we contribute to a fair justice system? I really don't understand why people have a problem keeping criminals away in jail.
When people in mass co-exist, there will always be crime, violence and the need for a justice system. We will always to an extent have to pay to live in a civilised place. If you don't like it, i guess you could move to columbia?
I do however think there is no harm in giving prisoners who are in for non violent offences the oppertunity to develop new, practical skills. They could be put to use to improve the infrastructure of the country no problem. But, imagine the haters you'd get if they implemented that!!
-
By the way, in saying that I don't mean to condone retribution. I think it's morally flawed, and in reality is just a sanitised form of ugly, brutal vengeance. It's completely inappropriate for modern, civilised society.
I completely agree with you there Andrew. In a modern society, there is no place for us to take the lives of others. I do however believe that there are a certain group of criminals that deserve no chance of rehabilitation back into society. The kind of people who rape, calculated murderers, pedophiles etc should be put in jail in awful conditions and see out there days in there. A life sentence to mean a life sentence. The only time they come out of that jail is in a Co-op standard ply box!
I would hate to see our justice system come close to somewhere like the US'. It clearly doesn't work.
But why should "we" the taxpayers fund their prison lifestyles?, unless they are working hard labour and paying for their own keep and making a profit that the gov can use to reduce national debt (or make the roads better :happy2:) then they shold be disposed of as they bring nothing to society apart from crime and grief for others.
Because thats what a civilised society does! Would you rather not pay tax and live in a largely lawless state?? where you have to pay for protection or get mugged or your kids get raped?? Extreme but think about it! why shouldn't we contribute to a fair justice system? I really don't understand why people have a problem keeping criminals away in jail.
When people in mass co-exist, there will always be crime, violence and the need for a justice system. We will always to an extent have to pay to live in a civilised place. If you don't like it, i guess you could move to columbia?
I do however think there is no harm in giving prisoners who are in for non violent offences the oppertunity to develop new, practical skills. They could be put to use to improve the infrastructure of the country no problem. But, imagine the haters you'd get if they implemented that!!
No one said they wanted to live in a lawless state, I think the general consensus is they need to get tougher, make them work 8-10 hours a day like most honest people do (If it was up to me they would be in chain gangs filling pot-holes for their full sentence, preferably in the pissing rain!), take away their pool tables, sky TV and playststions, its supposed to be a prison not a holiday camp (in fact some prisons are probably better than some Butlin's camps, minus the getting ass raped if you can't look after yourself, altho for a few on here those last 2 points would not be an issue :signLOL:)
-
.
I don't agree at all with the taxpayer justification - It's not a financial issue. If I don't pay tax or 'contribute' to UK society (whatever that is) should I be put in prison? - Perhaps no-one should answer that! :laugh:
It isn't so black and white - People get put in prison for a whole variety of reasons or crimes and not all are cold blooded murderers or paedophiles.
-
.
I don't agree at all with the taxpayer justification - It's not a financial issue.
Exactly, money shouldn't get in the way of making decisions about someones sentence.
-
i worked in a CAT C prison had both people serving life and people serving time for pedophilia, rape and what not.
Although life isn't a free roam around streets and freedom to go to the pub, for some its better than the life they had outside.
-
.
I don't agree at all with the taxpayer justification - It's not a financial issue. If I don't pay tax or 'contribute' to UK society (whatever that is) should I be put in prison? - Perhaps no-one should answer that! :laugh:
It isn't so black and white - People get put in prison for a whole variety of reasons or crimes and not all are cold blooded murderers or paedophiles.
I disagree Robin (yay, we are back on track!) the country is on its ass, in these times of austerity, financial matters should be included, if all prisoners worked and covered their costs which "society" pays (That's the taxpayer or honest person in general terms) then it would not be an issue, but as they are only taking from society and not contributing why should they live better than the people who work on the poverty line and why should they get housed/looked after for free when there are thousands of homeless people that don't get that?.
While I am on my soapbox, they should drastically reform the state benefits so its actually better for the "Scroungers" to work than sit at home collecting benefits because they had the forsight to have a few kids and let the government pay for it. :popcornsoda:
Steppin off ma soapbox now :innocent:
Sorry chaps back on topic, bring back hanging?, no, shoot em its cheaper!
-
By the way, in saying that I don't mean to condone retribution. I think it's morally flawed, and in reality is just a sanitised form of ugly, brutal vengeance. It's completely inappropriate for modern, civilised society.
I completely agree with you there Andrew. In a modern society, there is no place for us to take the lives of others. I do however believe that there are a certain group of criminals that deserve no chance of rehabilitation back into society. The kind of people who rape, calculated murderers, pedophiles etc should be put in jail in awful conditions and see out there days in there. A life sentence to mean a life sentence. The only time they come out of that jail is in a Co-op standard ply box!
I would hate to see our justice system come close to somewhere like the US'. It clearly doesn't work.
But why should "we" the taxpayers fund their prison lifestyles?, unless they are working hard labour and paying for their own keep and making a profit that the gov can use to reduce national debt (or make the roads better :happy2:) then they shold be disposed of as they bring nothing to society apart from crime and grief for others.
Yet again, a misinformed opinion. For a start it is ridiculous to think of justice in financial terms, but more importantly the legal costs of Capital Punishment are many, many times more than that of lifetime imprisonment without parole. I think the average cost in the US is $23m for each person condemned to death.
Misinformed?, dont think so!, the average prisoner costs more to "Care for in prison" than the average person earns each year!!, so not only are these people NOT contributing to society they are actually costing taxpayers money, its a double whammy!!.
Take a peek at the UK Justice accounts for breakdowns.
http://www.justice.gov.uk/downloads/statistics/hmps/prison-costs-summary-10-11.pdf/
Roughly £28k per prisoner per year, £3.15 Billion last year providing 3 meals, Playstations, Sky TV etc
The specific question is whether the death penalty should be reintroduced. You suggest it would save money. I countered with facts that it does indeed cost many times more to execute someone.
-
By the way, in saying that I don't mean to condone retribution. I think it's morally flawed, and in reality is just a sanitised form of ugly, brutal vengeance. It's completely inappropriate for modern, civilised society.
I completely agree with you there Andrew. In a modern society, there is no place for us to take the lives of others. I do however believe that there are a certain group of criminals that deserve no chance of rehabilitation back into society. The kind of people who rape, calculated murderers, pedophiles etc should be put in jail in awful conditions and see out there days in there. A life sentence to mean a life sentence. The only time they come out of that jail is in a Co-op standard ply box!
I would hate to see our justice system come close to somewhere like the US'. It clearly doesn't work.
But why should "we" the taxpayers fund their prison lifestyles?, unless they are working hard labour and paying for their own keep and making a profit that the gov can use to reduce national debt (or make the roads better :happy2:) then they shold be disposed of as they bring nothing to society apart from crime and grief for others.
Yet again, a misinformed opinion. For a start it is ridiculous to think of justice in financial terms, but more importantly the legal costs of Capital Punishment are many, many times more than that of lifetime imprisonment without parole. I think the average cost in the US is $23m for each person condemned to death.
Misinformed?, dont think so!, the average prisoner costs more to "Care for in prison" than the average person earns each year!!, so not only are these people NOT contributing to society they are actually costing taxpayers money, its a double whammy!!.
Take a peek at the UK Justice accounts for breakdowns.
http://www.justice.gov.uk/downloads/statistics/hmps/prison-costs-summary-10-11.pdf/
Roughly £28k per prisoner per year, £3.15 Billion last year providing 3 meals, Playstations, Sky TV etc
The specific question is whether the death penalty should be reintroduced. You suggest it would save money. I countered with facts that it does indeed cost many times more to execute someone.
i see a gap in the market! a execution service that's value for money!
-
Did someone say they get Sky? Unbelievable. :confused:
-
.
I don't agree at all with the taxpayer justification - It's not a financial issue.
Exactly, money shouldn't get in the way of making decisions about someones sentence.
We sentence you to death... so Tamiyoman can save a few pence in tax.
-
By the way, in saying that I don't mean to condone retribution. I think it's morally flawed, and in reality is just a sanitised form of ugly, brutal vengeance. It's completely inappropriate for modern, civilised society.
I completely agree with you there Andrew. In a modern society, there is no place for us to take the lives of others. I do however believe that there are a certain group of criminals that deserve no chance of rehabilitation back into society. The kind of people who rape, calculated murderers, pedophiles etc should be put in jail in awful conditions and see out there days in there. A life sentence to mean a life sentence. The only time they come out of that jail is in a Co-op standard ply box!
I would hate to see our justice system come close to somewhere like the US'. It clearly doesn't work.
But why should "we" the taxpayers fund their prison lifestyles?, unless they are working hard labour and paying for their own keep and making a profit that the gov can use to reduce national debt (or make the roads better :happy2:) then they shold be disposed of as they bring nothing to society apart from crime and grief for others.
Yet again, a misinformed opinion. For a start it is ridiculous to think of justice in financial terms, but more importantly the legal costs of Capital Punishment are many, many times more than that of lifetime imprisonment without parole. I think the average cost in the US is $23m for each person condemned to death.
Misinformed?, dont think so!, the average prisoner costs more to "Care for in prison" than the average person earns each year!!, so not only are these people NOT contributing to society they are actually costing taxpayers money, its a double whammy!!.
Take a peek at the UK Justice accounts for breakdowns.
http://www.justice.gov.uk/downloads/statistics/hmps/prison-costs-summary-10-11.pdf/
Roughly £28k per prisoner per year, £3.15 Billion last year providing 3 meals, Playstations, Sky TV etc
The specific question is whether the death penalty should be reintroduced. You suggest it would save money. I countered with facts that it does indeed cost many times more to execute someone.
I cant see how it costs more to shoot someone than to house them for a 25-30 year stretch, after all a bullet only costs 60p.
Perhaps they should privatise the prisons and the "Guests" earn their keep :signLOL:
-
Legal costs. They don't just give the decision to some knobhead drinking John Smiths down his local.
-
.
I don't agree at all with the taxpayer justification - It's not a financial issue.
Exactly, money shouldn't get in the way of making decisions about someones sentence.
We sentence you to death... so Tamiyoman can save a few pence in tax.
Wrong again Andrew, rather than make this about me (your habit), I am talking about everyone in the country "We sentence you to death as your are a murderer/paedo and bring nothing but misery and a financial burden to society" and I would rather the gov use the money to pay off national debt and better the countries chances of getting out of a recession, I am happy to pay my taxes and a few pence/pounds to me wont make any difference, £3.15 billion per year would make a difference tho. If only inmates could earn their keep.
As students these days pay for higher education and leave Uni with large debts which they have to repay, why should a prisoner not pay for his "Re-habilitation", whether he earns his keep working in prison or whether he leaves prison with a debt to repay (like students).
-
Legal costs. They don't just give the decision to some knobhead drinking John Smiths down his local.
Seems there is another gap in the market there too, anyone wanna legal job arranging the shooting of a convicted murderer, £14.5 million a head, sure there will be a few applicants for that one :signLOL:
-
I'm not adverse to inmates "earning their keep", but I'll say it again, it costs more to execute someone than it does to keep them in prison for life. The US system is a prime example.
-
I quite like the idea in some Muslim countries where the victims/victims families are included in handing down the punishments.
Jesus Christ, how did I miss that. Are you actually serious?
-
Wrong again Andrew, rather than make this about me (your habit)...
By the way, I made it about you because up until this point you are the only one who has attempted to justify the death penalty based on the finances of the country. Can't you see how ridiculous that is?
-
Now i know people got hanged that were innocent but with todays dna tests it is 99.9% proof
No it isn't and what about the 0.1%? What if you were suspected to be the murderer, were completely innocent but the evidence was stacked against you? How would you feel?
If you kill someone with intent you should have your life taken away from you. (IMVHO)
Then you're no better than the murderer.
We (society) and marketing companies have created an instant gratification society where the acquisition of material goods is seen as been the big thing. Time we all learned respect for ourselves and others and that you have to be happy from within and taking away what someone else has should not be tolerate. Lets remember that for the most part there are very few people who are hunger or cold in this country, so why behave in this way.
+1. Everyone must have the latest game, the latest TV etc. We value belongings above and beyond human life now. This needs to change.
Being honest I don't like anyone taking someones life it's such a precious thing to lose
+1. Completely agree with this. It is such a drastic thing to do.
This country is far too much of a soft touch!!
Agree in some respects - when software piracy and hacking carry a heavier penalty than raping someone, something has gone wrong.
You have to be pretty sure that you are murdering the right person, not 99.% sure but 100% sure, not even DNA testing can give you that assurance
Which is why I disagree with the death penalty.
I'd bring in hard labour in prisons. Strip all their TV's, playstations, Facebook access, and comfortable cells and make the cells like those in America with just an uncomfortable bed with one open wall of bars only.
completely agree with this. I know patients who committed crimes so they could go back inside where they had a place to stay, food, they'd be seen by a doctor, and they'd have comfort. Prison needs to be hell - the kind of place you never want to go to in the first place.
Life imprisonment without parole causes much more suffering to the offender than a painless death after a short period of imprisonment.
+1. I cannot recall who stated it but give them meaningless tasks eg moving rocks from one place to another and back. It saps meaning out of their existance but they will still exist and suffer.
Roughly £28k per prisoner per year, £3.15 Billion last year providing 3 meals, Playstations, Sky TV etc
The cost of this needs to be broken down and analysed. I never had a games console as a kid so no idea why everyone in prison seems to have access to one. Ditto with sky TV.
I do however think there is no harm in giving prisoners who are in for non violent offences the oppertunity to develop new, practical skills. They could be put to use to improve the infrastructure of the country no problem. But, imagine the haters you'd get if they implemented that!!
Big fan of this too - prisons can rehabilitate some (but not everybody). There are some who commit crimes to obtain money for food/drugs etc. Prison should be a place where people are detoxified and not where they can start/continue their drug habit.
While I am on my soapbox, they should drastically reform the state benefits so its actually better for the "Scroungers" to work than sit at home collecting benefits because they had the forsight to have a few kids and let the government pay for it. :popcornsoda:
+1. If you're on benefits, it should just about allow you to live - ie water/heating/shelter/clothes/food. Anything else is a luxury and if you want it, you should have to pay for it.
-
Wrong again Andrew, rather than make this about me (your habit)...
By the way, I made it about you because up until this point you are the only one who has attempted to justify the death penalty based on the finances of the country. Can't you see how ridiculous that is?
I was not basing it purely on the finances of the country, merely pointing out that It would be good for criminals to actually pay for their own keep
-
Wrong again Andrew, rather than make this about me (your habit)...
By the way, I made it about you because up until this point you are the only one who has attempted to justify the death penalty based on the finances of the country. Can't you see how ridiculous that is?
I was not basing it purely on the finances of the country, merely pointing out that It would be good for criminals to actually pay for their own keep
In which case I wholeheartedly agree. We are straying from the original question though.
-
i think that we should put criminals to work like in the USA. that's why they have things so cheap over there - prisoners aren't entitled to minimum wage. if we had manufacturing done by prisoners they'd be paying for their stay in prison, our exports would soar and we'd be better off as a society
i think a similar thing should be done to people on the dole - 6 months to find a job and if you don't you are put on a work team helping to build roads/schools/hospitals etc and only then do you get your pay out.
in regards to the death penalty, well i think that murderes/paedophiles/rapists if there was irrefutible evidence that they committed the crime (by which i mean verified CCTV footage that shows the act) only then do i think the death penalty is justified. if there's a risk that we get it wrong even once then it shouldn't be allowed to happen. same thing with corporal punishment.
someone mentioned earlier removal of body parts but you're forgetting that that would have to be done by a doctor, and doctors take an oath to "first do no harm". it would also be expensive to get a surgeon to do that (i.e. more burden on the taxpayer) + theatre space/time/staff/equipment. even if there was no ethical concern, and do you think a prisoner would make it easy to be anaesthetised if he knew that's what he was going in for? you do need some level of cooperation on the part of the "patient"
-
i think that we should put criminals to work like in the USA. that's why they have things so cheap over there - prisoners aren't entitled to minimum wage. if we had manufacturing done by prisoners they'd be paying for their stay in prison, our exports would soar and we'd be better off as a society
Or you'd have more unemployment as fewer people would be needed to work on building sites etc. You need to get them to do the kind of work no one else wants to do for money.
-
i think that we should put criminals to work like in the USA. that's why they have things so cheap over there - prisoners aren't entitled to minimum wage. if we had manufacturing done by prisoners they'd be paying for their stay in prison, our exports would soar and we'd be better off as a society
Or you'd have more unemployment as fewer people would be needed to work on building sites etc. You need to get them to do the kind of work no one else wants to do for money.
i was referring more to mindless tasks - they make number plates and things, basic manual labour. point is whatever they do they should be paying for their stay in prison.
-
i think that we should put criminals to work like in the USA. that's why they have things so cheap over there - prisoners aren't entitled to minimum wage. if we had manufacturing done by prisoners they'd be paying for their stay in prison, our exports would soar and we'd be better off as a society
Or you'd have more unemployment as fewer people would be needed to work on building sites etc. You need to get them to do the kind of work no one else wants to do for money.
i was referring more to mindless tasks - they make number plates and things, basic manual labour. point is whatever they do they should be paying for their stay in prison.
Number plates, laundry, basic machine stamping of metal parts, anything that involves pressing a button removing something and replacing it, something that anyone could do.
Clothing to office furniture to solar panels to military electronics (Even some parts of Patriot Missiles are made by lags in USA).
In USA they use prisoners as labour and they get paid 17p per hour, the rest goes to pay for their housing and a nice profit for the business that "Owns" these prisoners. A prisoner serving a 25 year sentence will be paid approx £10k throughout that time giving him some money to get himself back on his feet and not rely on the state!.
IBM, Boeing, Motorola, Microsoft, AT&T, Wireless, Texas Instrument, Dell, Compaq, Honeywell, Hewlett-Packard, Nortel, Lucent Technologies, 3Com, Intel, Northern Telecom, TWA, Nordstrom's, Revlon, Macy's, Pierre Cardin, Target Stores are all companies who utilize prison labour in their manufacturing.
-
should they bring back hanging?
in short no. i could think of may other ways of punishing people that have caused suffering to others.
will this be done? no
because somewhere along the lines someone makes a whole heap of cash everytime someone is sent down. money should be spent on improving the justice system and policing.
convicted criminals should be made to live a self sufficient lifestyle with as little help from the state as possible. provide them with the tools and guidance..... but if they dont get up and do something then they go hungry. simple
-
but if they dont get up and do something then they go hungry. simple
....I agree with most of your post but getting up and thieving etc so not to go hungry is what got some of them in prison in the first place.
-
but if they dont get up and do something then they go hungry. simple
....I agree with most of your post but getting up and thieving etc so not to go hungry is what got some of them in prison in the first place.
I agree this is the case for some Robin, but getting up and thieving to pay for the next crack rock is what got most of them in prison in the first place. We have a terrible drugs problem in this country, which is fuelling a massive crime epidemic. The government's answer? Slash funding for primary and secondary drug and alcohol addiction treatment programmes. :stupid:
-
the thing that annoys me about drug addiction is that it's totally unncessary
vials of heroin (used in medical practice) cost the NHS pennies each. i'm sure the cost of an overdose or HIV infection from shared needles or the cost of crime used to fund drug habits, vagrancy, police time and resources tracking users and dealers, anti smuggling and all the rest of it cost BILLIONS each year
why not just give the junkies heroin in a clean environment? instantly lower crime due to no need for drug dealers/smugglers. instantly lower rates of blood borne diseases and accidental overdoses. most of the long term health damage from heroin/cocaine use is due to the impurities it's cut with anyway so even those would go down.
it makes absolutely NO sense not to open injection centres with NHS funds.
-
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
I agree. If you outlaw something, you hand it over to the criminal marketplace.
It's pure stupidity to continue with current policy in the knowledge of the damage it causes to society. They won't back down due to principles, yet they continue to make billions from drugs which are far more dangerous to our health, purely because they have been socially constructed as acceptable habits.
The cost to the health service of alcohol and cigarette addiction runs into many billions, let alone the cost to the economy in terms of lost output and crime.
-
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
I agree. If you outlaw something, you hand it over to the criminal marketplace.
It's pure stupidity to continue with current policy in the knowledge of the damage it causes to society. They won't back down due to principles, yet they continue to make billions from drugs which are far more dangerous to our health, purely because they have been socially constructed as acceptable habits.
The cost to the health service of alcohol and cigarette addiction runs into many billions, let alone the cost to the economy in terms of lost output and crime.
need to correct you on this. cigarettes raise £10bn in revenue for the NHS but only burden it by £5bn
-
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
But the £5 billion...... "does not include indirect costs, such as lost productivity and informal care, the costs of treating disease caused by passive smoking, or the full range of conditions associated with smoking".
-
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
I agree. If you outlaw something, you hand it over to the criminal marketplace.
It's pure stupidity to continue with current policy in the knowledge of the damage it causes to society. They won't back down due to principles, yet they continue to make billions from drugs which are far more dangerous to our health, purely because they have been socially constructed as acceptable habits.
The cost to the health service of alcohol and cigarette addiction runs into many billions, let alone the cost to the economy in terms of lost output and crime.
need to correct you on this. cigarettes raise £10bn in revenue for the NHS but only burden it by £5bn
....And do you happen to have the stats on what alcohol raises and burdens for the NHS?
[a bit off the hanging subject, but such are the meanderings of random topics and interesting discussions]
-
but if they dont get up and do something then they go hungry. simple
....I agree with most of your post but getting up and thieving etc so not to go hungry is what got some of them in prison in the first place.
I meant within the prison walls :innocent:
many will take the initiative and take on a small job inside. others with just be happy playing pool and playstation
-
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
I agree. If you outlaw something, you hand it over to the criminal marketplace.
It's pure stupidity to continue with current policy in the knowledge of the damage it causes to society. They won't back down due to principles, yet they continue to make billions from drugs which are far more dangerous to our health, purely because they have been socially constructed as acceptable habits.
The cost to the health service of alcohol and cigarette addiction runs into many billions, let alone the cost to the
economy in terms of lost output and crime.
need to correct you on this. cigarettes raise £10bn in revenue for the NHS but only burden it by £5bn
....And do you happen to have the stats on what alcohol raises and burdens for the NHS?
[a bit off the hanging subject, but such are the meanderings of random topics and interesting discussions]
Alcohol duty brings in about £15 billion a year and a quick search suggests it cost about £3 billion for the NHS. As I always suspected, it's good to drink!!
:drinking:
-
The rates for unlawful killings in Britain have more than doubled since abolition of capital punishment in 1964 from 0.68 per 100,000 of the population to 1 .42 per 100,000. Home Office figures show around unlawful killings 300 in 1964, which rose to 565 in 1994 and 833 in 2004. The number of killings recorded by police rose to 636 in the 12 months to March 2011, up from 608 the previous year. The principal causes of homicide are fights involving fists and feet, stabbing and cutting by glass or a broken bottle, shooting and strangling. 72% of the victims were male with younger men being most at risk. Convictions for the actual crime of murder (as against manslaughter and other unlawful killings) have also been rising inexorably. Between 1900 and 1965 they ran at an average of 29 per year. There were 57 in 1965 – the first year of abolition. Ten years later the total for the year was 107 which rose to 173 by 1985 and 214 in 1995.
A total of 29 people released after being convicted of murder and six people convicted of manslaughter, killed again between 2000/1 and 2010/11, according to figures released by the Home Office. 13 of these committed murder, the most serious homicide offence, and 16 committed manslaughter.
Some 6,300 people are currently serving sentences of “life in prison” for murder. Figures released in 2009 show that since 1997, 65 prisoners who were released after serving life were convicted of a further crime. These included two murders, one suspected murder, one attempted murder, three rapes and two instances of grievous bodily harm. The same document also noted that 304 people given life sentences since January 1997 served less than 10 years of them, actually in prison.
Make of these stats what you will.
:happy2:
-
Alcohol duty brings in about £15 billion a year and a quick search suggests it cost about £3 billion for the NHS. As I always suspected, it's good to drink!!
:drinking:
....Are you claiming that the consumption of alcohol is beneficial to the NHS? Try telling A&E hospital staff that on a typical Saturday night anywhere in the uk!
-
Alcohol duty brings in about £15 billion a year and a quick search suggests it cost about £3 billion for the NHS. As I always suspected, it's good to drink!!
:drinking:
....Are you claiming that the consumption of alcohol is beneficial to the NHS? Try telling A&E hospital staff that on a typical Saturday night anywhere in the uk!
as a former member of A&E staff in a population covering 800,000 i'll have to side with RR on this one...
-
Alcohol duty brings in about £15 billion a year and a quick search suggests it cost about £3 billion for the NHS. As I always suspected, it's good to drink!!
:drinking:
....Are you claiming that the consumption of alcohol is beneficial to the NHS? Try telling A&E hospital staff that on a typical Saturday night anywhere in the uk!
as a former member of A&E staff in a population covering 800,000 i'll have to side with RR on this one...
No, absolutely not. You asked for the stats, I reply. My good lady wife is a nurse (no longer working in the NHS) and has terrible stories of alcohol related incidents and the sheer strain that it puts on the NHS. over 1,000,000 hospital related cases last year due to it and no doubt rising. If my "tongue in cheek" comment about drinking offends, I apologise (while drinking my Cocoa)
:drinking:
-
haha i wasn't offended! besides alcoholism and idiots going out on the lash and causing trouble are two very different things
-
haha i wasn't offended! besides alcoholism and idiots going out on the lash and causing trouble are two very different things
....I have less sympathy for idiots going out on the lash and causing trouble, especially as they often do so regularly. Alcoholics usually get that way due to deeper personal problems.
-
The cost of alcoholism and heavy drinking to the nation as a whole is enormous, and almost impossible to calculate. it has so many different direct and indirect effects on all aspects of society. Broken homes, homelessness, lost output, alcohol related health expenditure, anti-social behaviour, alcohol-related crime, to name but a few. The NHS expenditure amount alone barely scratches the surface.
-
The cost of alcoholism and heavy drinking to the nation as a whole is enormous, and almost impossible to calculate. it has so many different direct and indirect effects on all aspects of society. Broken homes, homelessness, lost output, alcohol related health expenditure, anti-social behaviour, alcohol-related crime, to name but a few. The NHS expenditure amount alone barely scratches the surface.
....Exactly!
And so they should hang all those caught heavy drinking and costing the nation such enormous sums of money. :wink: :evilgrin: [says he in a desperate attempt to bring the discussion back to the topic of hanging. Although folks will never reach complete agreement on that big subject anyway. Shall we discuss abortion next? :evilgrin:]
-
The cost of alcoholism and heavy drinking to the nation as a whole is enormous, and almost impossible to calculate. it has so many different direct and indirect effects on all aspects of society. Broken homes, homelessness, lost output, alcohol related health expenditure, anti-social behaviour, alcohol-related crime, to name but a few. The NHS expenditure amount alone barely scratches the surface.
....Exactly!
And so they should hang all those caught heavy drinking and costing the nation such enormous sums of money. :wink: :evilgrin: [says he in a desperate attempt to bring the discussion back to the topic of hanging. Although folks will never reach complete agreement on that big subject anyway. Shall we discuss abortion next? :evilgrin:]
Abortion! Maybe stick to something safe like religion!! :signLOL:
-
Just realised I've been on the Mk5 GTi forum all day.
I thought I'd been on The Daily Mail On-Line! :grin:
-
The cost of alcoholism and heavy drinking to the nation as a whole is enormous, and almost impossible to calculate. it has so many different direct and indirect effects on all aspects of society. Broken homes, homelessness, lost output, alcohol related health expenditure, anti-social behaviour, alcohol-related crime, to name but a few. The NHS expenditure amount alone barely scratches the surface.
....Exactly!
And so they should hang all those caught heavy drinking and costing the nation such enormous sums of money. :wink: :evilgrin: [says he in a desperate attempt to bring the discussion back to the topic of hanging. Although folks will never reach complete agreement on that big subject anyway. Shall we discuss abortion next? :evilgrin:]
Abortion! Maybe stick to something safe like religion!! :signLOL:
no to hard how about poitics :chicken: