MK5 Golf GTI

All Things Mk5 => Modifications & Technical Area => Performance Modifications => Topic started by: ianv5 on May 22, 2012, 05:21:45 pm

Title: Stage 1 Re-Map, should I buy and fit a filter first?
Post by: ianv5 on May 22, 2012, 05:21:45 pm
As above:

Car is a standard 2005 GTi and I am thinking of going for a Stage 1 re-map in the near future probably at R-tech. Is it worth me fitting a Forge Twintake before I get the Re-map or after.

If I just get the Twintake and just run that without the re-map will i notice much improvement in performance?
Title: Re: Stage 1 Re-Map, should I buy and fit a filter first?
Post by: sub39h on May 22, 2012, 05:41:12 pm
if you're going for a custom remap with R-Tech it would be worthwhile to have the intake fitted first. they'll make sure the map is "prepared" for the better air flow the TwinTake will give the engine.
Title: Re: Stage 1 Re-Map, should I buy and fit a filter first?
Post by: 56OctyVRS on May 23, 2012, 11:24:10 pm
You would benefit more fitting a sports cat downpipe than an intake. The standard air filter will flow up to about 270bhp to 280bhp and a stage 1 map wouldnt be near that. If you fitted a downpipe you could go straight to stage 2 and have about 260bhp and a more driveable car.
Title: Re: Stage 1 Re-Map, should I buy and fit a filter first?
Post by: ianv5 on May 24, 2012, 11:13:23 am
You would benefit more fitting a sports cat downpipe than an intake. The standard air filter will flow up to about 270bhp to 280bhp and a stage 1 map wouldnt be near that. If you fitted a downpipe you could go straight to stage 2 and have about 260bhp and a more driveable car.

Recommendation for a sports cat downpipe?
Title: Re: Stage 1 Re-Map, should I buy and fit a filter first?
Post by: sub39h on May 24, 2012, 11:39:53 am
Blueflame are doing a full TBE for £675 delivered on a group buy

call them up and speak to Adam and mention it
Title: Re: Stage 1 Re-Map, should I buy and fit a filter first?
Post by: sub39h on May 24, 2012, 11:49:55 am
turbo back exhaust i.e. an entire exhaust system

it can be a tiny bit boomy under load (nothing the radio at a socially acceptable volume doesn't cover) but is totally silent when cruising

for around half the price of a Milltek i'd say it's 100% worth it
Title: Re: Stage 1 Re-Map, should I buy and fit a filter first?
Post by: ianv5 on May 24, 2012, 11:55:45 am
Is that the same one as this on the Blueflame website?

https://www.blueflameperformance.com/cars_english/blueflame-car-exhausts-1/vw/golf-mk5-gti-edition-30-2004/vw-golf-mk5-gti-edition-30-2004-on-full-system-in-de-cat-twin-stainless-4-00-trims.html

Title: Re: Stage 1 Re-Map, should I buy and fit a filter first?
Post by: GarethB on May 24, 2012, 12:04:32 pm
Forge, ITG & Evoms intakes have been proven to give an extra 12-15bhp, even when added post remap - see Robin's review. For me, Stg 1 revo gave me 240bhp on JKM's RR, ITG added at a later date, and then (with no map tweaks) it has & will pull 254bhp on JKM's dyno all day any day.

The noise alone is well worth it  :happy2:
Title: Re: Stage 1 Re-Map, should I buy and fit a filter first?
Post by: GrayMK5GTI on May 24, 2012, 12:17:36 pm
Forge, ITG & Evoms intakes have been proven to give an extra 12-15bhp, even when added post remap - see Robin's review. For me, Stg 1 revo gave me 240bhp on JKM's RR, ITG added at a later date, and then (with no map tweaks) it has & will pull 254bhp on JKM's dyno all day any day.

The noise alone is well worth it  :happy2:

Gareth you got some great gains there with the ITG  :happy2:

Almost tempting me into getting one  :grin: but i want some exhaust note first!

to answer to OP's question - Definetely worth getting an air filter BEFORE the map to allow the map to be calibrated for the intake.

R-Tech will do you a good map also  :happy2:
Title: Re: Stage 1 Re-Map, should I buy and fit a filter first?
Post by: RedRobin on May 24, 2012, 12:26:20 pm
^^^^
It's as Gareth says. And my review may offer you some additional helpful information:  http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,9988.0.html


You would benefit more fitting a sports cat downpipe than an intake. The standard air filter will flow up to about 270bhp to 280bhp and a stage 1 map wouldnt be near that. If you fitted a downpipe you could go straight to stage 2 and have about 260bhp and a more driveable car.


....Firstly, Stage 1 is totally "driveable". But perhaps you mean something different than I understand the term 'driveable' to mean.

Secondly, be aware that if, having fitted both high-flow downpipe and air intake and a Stage 2 remap, you will probably find you then need an aftermarket HPFP to avoid cutouts etc. The slippery slope is great fun but starts getting expensive.

Title: Stage 1 Re-Map, should I buy and fit a filter first?
Post by: gigolo456 on May 24, 2012, 12:47:48 pm
Hi Robin, this is where it goes a bit 'grey'! I mean, i am planning to have a Twintake, then full TBE (BCS), then a custom map (1.5) from R-Tech, hoping that i will get perhaps 260bhp, maybe even a bit more, but i am being told conflicting comments reference the HPFP, you for example are suggesting that it is better to have it, others are stating categorically that it's not required unless you are having a Stage 2+ (R-Tech Stage 2)!? I have a Mk V Golf GTi..

All comments welcome, as most confused now!

Andrew

Title: Re: Stage 1 Re-Map, should I buy and fit a filter first?
Post by: sub39h on May 24, 2012, 12:58:03 pm
my understanding was that it's map dependent

if the map isn't requesting more fuel than the pump can deliver then what's the problem? if you're going for a custom map then the tuner should map the car to within the limits of the hardware, right?
Title: Re: Stage 1 Re-Map, should I buy and fit a filter first?
Post by: gigolo456 on May 24, 2012, 01:01:52 pm
ahhh, ok, i am hoping then that R-Tech will take into account the fact that i will not have a HPFP and custom the map accordingly!?
Title: Re: Stage 1 Re-Map, should I buy and fit a filter first?
Post by: RedRobin on May 24, 2012, 01:06:58 pm

ahhh, ok, i am hoping then that R-Tech will take into account the fact that i will not have a HPFP and custom the map accordingly!?


....From what I know of Nick, they most certainly will. You are in good hands with someone who knows the 2.0T FSI engine and not in the predicament like someone else who has posted about their disaster.
Title: Re: Stage 1 Re-Map, should I buy and fit a filter first?
Post by: ianv5 on May 24, 2012, 01:18:23 pm
Have spoken to the Guys at R Tech and have given me great advice. Thanks Ben :happy2:

Slippery slope is looming but finances will dictate!

Hence will prob go for just the Stage 1 map without filter/downpipe etc first.

Then when I get back from Afghan early next year will spend some of my hard earned on new exhaust, filter, brakes, wheels.............. :laugh:
Title: Re: Stage 1 Re-Map, should I buy and fit a filter first?
Post by: RedRobin on May 24, 2012, 01:23:01 pm

Hi Robin, this is where it goes a bit 'grey'! I mean, i am planning to have a Twintake, then full TBE (BCS), then a custom map (1.5) from R-Tech, hoping that i will get perhaps 260bhp, maybe even a bit more, but i am being told conflicting comments reference the HPFP, you for example are suggesting that it is better to have it, others are stating categorically that it's not required unless you are having a Stage 2+ (R-Tech Stage 2)!? I have a Mk V Golf GTi..

All comments welcome, as most confused now!

Andrew

....Okay, relating my experience to your setup: My first mod was a Milltek TBE, then a Stage 1 remap (Revo with adjustable settings), then Revo Stage 2 followed by a Twintake, all still on OEM fuel pump. JKM who are also very experienced on the 2.0T FSI (as you doubtless already know and agree) found that the extra efficiency of the Twintake (ITG would definitely be similar) when combined with Revo Stage 2 resulted in occasionally 'overworking' the OEM fuel pump. So the solution (until I had an APR HPFP) was to reduce my Revo settings.

I would be confident that Nick at R-tech would advise and remap according to your individual car. So, take his advice rather than mine but hopefully my individual experience may help you understand the principles and what can possibly/probably happen.

A fuel pump might typically cutout or hesitate when subjected to demands beyond those allowed for by VAG - This is not what you want while hard on the throttle during an overtake!
Title: Re: Stage 1 Re-Map, should I buy and fit a filter first?
Post by: gigolo456 on May 24, 2012, 01:30:19 pm
Interesting point though Robin. Am i right in saying that a HPFP is only a few hundred quid, and relatively easy for a specialist to fit??

Title: Re: Stage 1 Re-Map, should I buy and fit a filter first?
Post by: RedRobin on May 24, 2012, 02:26:40 pm

Interesting point though Robin. Am i right in saying that a HPFP is only a few hundred quid, and relatively easy for a specialist to fit??


....Relatively easy for a specialist to fit or possibly someone experienced (not like me!) - It just requires great care AFAIK.

An Autotech HPFP is 'only' a few hundred quid because it's only the replacement of the internals into your OEM pump body. JKM strongly advise against them and although those with them post that they are totally happy I have heard some stories, one involving fire, which meant that I bought the much more expensive APR pump (~£700 IIRC). If you don't want to spend the money for peace of mind with an APR, then I would advise buying a brand new OEM pump from VW/VAG and having the Autotech internals fitted in that. However, personally i would save up for the APR or, of course, not go as far as modding your car quite so much and hence being able to work with the stock pump.

Again, if you are going to R-tech, take his advice - View him as the expert on your individual car (as I do with JKM). I don't think he is against the Autotech pump as much as either myself or JKM.

I'm trying to be as objective and practical for you in my advice as I do personally favour the APR pump for a Stage 2 or 2+ car.
Title: Re: Stage 1 Re-Map, should I buy and fit a filter first?
Post by: gigolo456 on May 24, 2012, 02:44:58 pm
Cheers Robin, i will certainly ask R-Tech about a new HPFP, hoping he will say it's not necessary for a Stage 1.5 with them!? I say this because i have an insurance quotation of £490.00 for those 3 mods, ie Twintake, TBE (valvetronics) from BCS, and a Stage 1.5 custom map from R-Tech...
 :scared:
Title: Re: Stage 1 Re-Map, should I buy and fit a filter first?
Post by: 56OctyVRS on May 25, 2012, 11:19:14 am
^^^^
It's as Gareth says. And my review may offer you some additional helpful information:  http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,9988.0.html


You would benefit more fitting a sports cat downpipe than an intake. The standard air filter will flow up to about 270bhp to 280bhp and a stage 1 map wouldnt be near that. If you fitted a downpipe you could go straight to stage 2 and have about 260bhp and a more driveable car.


....Firstly, Stage 1 is totally "driveable". But perhaps you mean something different than I understand the term 'driveable' to mean.

Secondly, be aware that if, having fitted both high-flow downpipe and air intake and a Stage 2 remap, you will probably find you then need an aftermarket HPFP to avoid cutouts etc. The slippery slope is great fun but starts getting expensive.



What I meant by more driveable was that the stage 1 is good but runs out of puff. Where as the stage 2 map gives a bit more in the mid range and top end.  The issue about the hpfp is really down to how aggressive the map is setup as to whether you get fuel cut.  Although sometimes fuel cut can be down to a worn or sticky fuel regulator valve.  Mine had fuel cut at stage 2+ but I changed it for the RS4 valve and it runs prefectly.
Title: Re: Stage 1 Re-Map, should I buy and fit a filter first?
Post by: gigolo456 on May 25, 2012, 12:58:16 pm
I have just spoken with an Independent VAG specialist in Doncaster, and he suggested that if i do go for a Stage 1.5 with R-Tech (same as usual Stage 2 with others), and if i have a new HPFP fitted, it could lead to further problems down the line, eg with the cam-follower! However he did suggest that i have a new 'bucket' fitted, although i didn't quite grasp what this actually is, any ideas folks??

Andrew
Title: Re: Stage 1 Re-Map, should I buy and fit a filter first?
Post by: 56OctyVRS on May 25, 2012, 01:21:10 pm
Its called a cam follower .  If you click the link it willshow you how to and what one looks like :happy2:

http://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/142836-how-to-change-fuel-pump-cam-follower-on-2-0-tfsi/ (http://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/142836-how-to-change-fuel-pump-cam-follower-on-2-0-tfsi/)
Title: Re: Stage 1 Re-Map, should I buy and fit a filter first?
Post by: gigolo456 on May 25, 2012, 01:25:17 pm
ahhh, are you suggesting that the cam-follower and 'bucket' are one and the same??
Title: Re: Stage 1 Re-Map, should I buy and fit a filter first?
Post by: 56OctyVRS on May 25, 2012, 02:26:00 pm
The follower is bucket shaped.
Title: Re: Stage 1 Re-Map, should I buy and fit a filter first?
Post by: gigolo456 on May 25, 2012, 02:34:00 pm
Cheers, any ideas y he mite want 2 change only that and keep the standard fuel pump??