MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Modifications & Technical Area => Technical Workshop => Topic started by: Richn83 on June 03, 2012, 07:30:58 pm
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now that the polar fis advance let's you see a few more advanced ecu details I was hoping some of the tuners or people with tuning experience could explain a bit more about the values we should be looking for and what's bad?
Exhaust gas sensor 1, in gentle driving I've seen temos from 400 up to 700 degrees, any idea where sensor is and what's a safe limits.
Injection angle degrees BTDC on acceleration seen figures positive up to 20-30 and on the over run negative 6-15 what is the optimal position is it as close to BTDC as possible or a number of degrees before?
Also see ignition angle delay for each cylinder these are generally 0 but with occasional delay on cylinder 1 and 4 is this retarded timing or the engine pulling for anti-knock is an amount normal or should you expect this to be 0 if everything is running as expected on 99 Ron?
These are the ones I am a little unsure about and would appreciate some input from people on what these values should be :smiley:
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Sub'd :popcornsoda:
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When logging with vcds I have zero CFs over most of the rev range but with the Polar I sometimes see up to -3 on a couple of cylinders when using partial throttle acceleration so I don't think those values have any sinster meaning. In any case your ecu can easily correct each cylinder's CF by up to -12 to avoid pre-ignition.
Not actually seen the EGT option (will have to check again) but if it's like vcds, it's value is not absolute and should ideally be high 800 to low 900s at the upper end of the rev range.
As for BTDC, the figures you're seeing is normal and depends on your throttle position and whether accelerating or decelerating.
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Interesting bacillus, do you have any literate you can point me too is the apr logging info have anything on this? There was a new update for egt. In your experience is the miss fire counter cumulative? Or instant as i haven't seen any figures yet.
Bear in mind my car is stock is -12 the limit that the ecu can compensate for?
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Egt is done through the lambda sensor and isn't as accurate as a pure egt sensor. Cruising values up to 700 is normal, which will drop as you apply full throttle as the mixture richens, then will rise again as the turbo heats up.
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Interesting bacillus, do you have any literate you can point me too is the apr logging info have anything on this? There was a new update for egt. In your experience is the miss fire counter cumulative? Or instant as i haven't seen any figures yet.
Bear in mind my car is stock is -12 the limit that the ecu can compensate for?
Sorry Rich but there is no one all inclusive source I can link you to for more info. I only know what I know from personal experience and reading around.
As for the misfire counter, I have it on one desktop but as, so far, I haven't been troubled with any (misfires) so not really had any need to keep a close eye on that desktop for diagnostics. It's always been 0 for each cylinder when cycling through the desktops.
Regarding the ecu, the maximum CF is -12 regardless of if you are stock or mapped.
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Thanks alex that's interesting to know.
Bacillus I almost need to see a miss fire I will give isma a message see if he knows about the miss fire counter. Alex do you know if there is such a thing with these values for optimal combustion so when tuning you would ideally see no pull and injection at x ms before TDC?
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EGT is on a model look up map (simulated exhaust gas temperatures) which was pre calibrated using actual egt probes pre production then information added to the map code.
As soon as a sports cats get fitted the simulated exhaust gas temperatures become incorrect.
As snippet from on of my function files. Auto translated from tech German
The simulated exhaust gas temperatures and tabgm tabgkrm (f for SY_TURBO = 1) and catalyst temperatures and tkatm tikatm be used:
1. When Katalysatoru ¨ monitoring. Falls below its starting temperature of the catalyst, then this catalyst ° F are erroneously identified as defective.
2. In the lambda control on the probe after cat This rule is only activated after the start, when the catalyst light-off his u ° is exceeded.
3. F for the sensor heater control after engine start. If the simulated dew point temperature exceeded, the probe heating LinkedIn ° can be turned on FULLY.
4. In monitoring the probe heating ¨. Via the exhaust temperature falls below for example 800 ° C is then the probe heating
off, so that the probe is not too hot.
5. Fu ¨ r ¨ ftersteuerung the Motorlu.
6. F for switch-protection components.
This function provides only a rough approximation to the curve of the exhaust gas temperature and catalyst temperature, by the application especially the four ¨ monitored area (Taupunktverla ¨ UFE in the exhaust, Katalysatoru ¨ monitoring, probe heating mode or switch-off and high temperatures fu ¨ r component protection ) should be viewed critically.
1. Basic function
Stationary temperature (tatmsta): The same applies for takrstc
With the N / RL map KFTATM the stationary ¨ re exhaust gas temperature is set before catalyst.
Corrected, this temperature over ambient temperature or Umgebungstemp.Nachbildung characteristic ATMTANS
in shear with the fixed value TATMSA,
catalytic converter heating at the fixed value TATMKH in Katwa ¨ with the fixed value TATMKW, with the ignition undwinkelwirkungsgrad map KFATMZW Preheat temperature = f (ML, ETAZWIST) with the lambda setpoint map KFATMLA Temperature = f (ML, LAMSBG_W) and
with a cold engine block (TMOT - TATMTMOT) with TATMTMOT = 90 degrees C. The Kattemperatur (exotherm) is corrected with
Temp elevated heights with the characteristic KATMEXML or KATMIEXML = f (ML)
Temp decrease with KLATMZWE or KLATMIZWE = f (etazwimt) Closed · ndwinkeleinfluß with KLATMLAE or KLATMILAE = f (lambsbg_w) Lambda influence
Temp set to TKATMOE or TIKATMOE at tabgm <TABGMEX or B_sa = 1
F for tikatm the temperature in the catalyst and the temperature after the catalyst tkatm kó · can different temperature increase by exothermic reactions and cooling and also different be applied Closed · ndwinkel and lambda corrections.
The temporal influence of the temperature before Cat:
Using a PT1 filter (filter time constant ZATMAML) the dynamics of the exhaust gas temperature and is reproduced with the PT1 filter (time constant ZATMRML) the dynamics of the tube wall temperature.
With the distribution factor FATMRML the exhaust gas temperature and the tube wall temperature is weighted.
The Kattemperatur is tkatm tabgm from gas temperature along with the PT1-filter (filter time constant ZATMKML) was calculated.
Via three filters (time constant ZATMIKML) is out of the exhaust gas temperature, temperature in catalyst tabgm modeled tikatm
(Principle Wa ¸ rmetransportes). In shear, there are hung by the small air mass flow in the catalyst, a the Potential Abgastemperaturerho ° by the large ¨ Full-Size Effect of temperature on the monolith by stro ¨ Mende exhaust. This increase in Temperaturerho ¨ thrust can be modeled by B_sa is initialized with the positive edge with a temperature which is composed of the Kattemperatur tikatm and eı'nem offset TATMSAE.
The time constant of PT1 filter ZATMIKML are shown with luftmasseabh-dependent characteristics.
The initial values fu ¨ r exhaust and catalyst temperature can be calculated from the temperatures at engine start at the parking and the run-time. The initial values fu ¨ r exhaust and catalyst temperature should correspond to a few minutes about the downtime required tube wall temperatures at the probe insertion points.
The filter for the exhaust temperature is stopped at B_stend = 0. The filter fu ¨ r is the tube wall temperature stopped
is to B_atmtpa = 1. Only when B_atmtpk = 1, the filter for is released, the catalyst temperature.
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Timing is based on many maps which correct an optimised advance map, corrections maps are based on lambda, ait temp, fuel strategy, coolant temp, knock control engine load, rpm.
On a tuned engine you would want to be seeing some -CF pull maybe -2 /-3 so your know you getting "Minimum advance for Best Torque"
A mininum CF threshold can be added to the map code to allow continuous CF without the ecu removing load request, if the ecu starts tosee continuously higher CF the it will start to dump fuel and remove load request.
I have see Focus ST 2.5 MED9 maps where the map perfomance lambda control is based on knock. No knock and the car will run .98 lambda all the time, but if the car sees -6cf it will dump the lambda to 0.75.
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I've not seen a EGT Parameter. I'll have another look today. Got the recent update which added Lambda.
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Thanks nick, that's really helpful, so a -2 is a good value to see across the figures cylinders which is a bit of advanced timing so that it sparks before TDC positive figures are bad then?
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Thanks nick, that's really helpful, so a -2 is a good value to see across the figures cylinders which is a bit of advanced timing so that it sparks before TDC positive figures are bad then?
afaik you won't see positive values for CFs as the ecu only pulls back "advanced" baseline timing.
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Thanks nick, that's really helpful, so a -2 is a good value to see across the figures cylinders which is a bit of advanced timing so that it sparks before TDC positive figures are bad then?
afaik you won't see positive values for CFs as the ecu only pulls back "advanced" baseline timing.
:happy2:
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Thanks bacillus and nick, so on my stock map I will generally see 0's apart from an occasional -2 I haven't done a wot run yet so will see if this shows some timing advance, and the figure is showing me degrees before TDC that the ignition spark is.
The injection timing really doesn't show me much as its continuously variable based on throttle position and engine load.
Im fairly sure I understand the lamda value expressed as a decimal 1 being the representation of 14.7/1 optimal and so seeing lower values if lean 0.98 being ideal and higher values being rich.
The only other thing getting shown is how long the injectors are opened does anyone know the maximum value the standard injectors can open in ms?
:notworthy:
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Other way round on the lambda. Lower than 1 is richer and higher is leaner. Ideal on power figure is 0.80.
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Think polar may be wasted on me if I can't get an oem oil sensor working in the Leon as a lot of the above is getting a bit :scared:
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Think polar may be wasted on me if I can't get an oem oil sensor working in the Leon as a lot of the above is getting a bit :scared:
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so on my stock map I will generally see 0's apart from an occasional -2 I haven't done a wot run yet so will see if this shows some timing advance, and the figure is showing me degrees before TDC that the ignition spark is.
With a stock map you should normally see 0 CF on all cylinders and a positive value for your advance at wot. With a remap the timing advance value at wot should be higher.
The only other thing getting shown is how long the injectors are opened does anyone know the maximum value the standard injectors can open in ms?
iirc it's about 9ms but you may only see a value approaching that on a highly modified ko3 that has high fuelling requirements.
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Think polar may be wasted on me if I can't get an oem oil sensor working in the Leon as a lot of the above is getting a bit :scared:
There are a lot more features to the polar for everyday useage than what is being discussed. :smiley:
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Mike there are lots of interesting bits on the polar beyond what im talking about here and these are the bits that are most useful to a tuned engine to keep an eye on things.
Its interesting if its 9ms will see what i can get at wot :evilgrin:
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Mike there are lots of interesting bits on the polar beyond what im talking about here and these are the bits that are most useful to a tuned engine to keep an eye on things.
Its interesting if its 9ms will see what i can get at wot :evilgrin:
I'll get one eventually! Rich couldn't get the oil sensor working when down at Aks but think they were both pushed for time