MK5 Golf GTI
General => Random Chat => Topic started by: berg on June 07, 2012, 01:14:36 pm
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brakes and suspension. Discuss. (If only this was a real essay question on my A Levels :pomppomp:)
I remember reading this in an article about tuning Peugeot 205's years ago. Certainly, if you take a Golf with the ultimate brake upgrade and ultimate suspension upgrades but dont map it or add any performance bolt on upgrades I guess you would still have a very good car capable of surprising a few cars as would be able to brake later into the bends and corner round them very well too.
Or would you say tyres and traction are more important ie the very best tyres couple with transmission mods?
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I agree that improving handling can go a long way towards improvingt the overall performance of a car. no point having extra power if the chasis cant handle it.
I think having the right set of tires can also be a big upgrade in terms of handling, no point spending a fortune on suspension mods if the bit which actually controls where the car is going has no grip.
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x2
I have to agree in the tyre issue, good tyres make alot of difference.
But then you need good brakes to Halt...
And then suspension to push both brakes & tyres.
So a bit mixed.
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On most tracks, maps are pointless, chassis way more important IMO
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Chapman theory, add lightness.
You're right though, throwing power at a car to make it faster around a track is attacking a problem from the wrong end.
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I think VW's own stock suspension setup is good enough personally
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I think VW's own stock suspension is good enough personally..
I thought you were buying some Eibach springs. :confused:
Agree with what has been said. Lighter, Suspenders and Brakes ftw. :happy2:
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I think VW's own stock suspension is good enough personally..
depends what your using car for steve, but if its mapped then i assume you want to go quicker and stock suspension is not very good at that
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I think VW's own stock suspension is good enough personally..
depends what your using car for steve, but if its mapped then i assume you want to go quicker and stock suspension is not very good at that
My car is for the public roads .. I would think generally if you track your car once or twice a year, I wouldn't want to drive around in a cart horse for those rare occasions the car may visit a track. Only people that use their GTi as a track day only car, would make sense to play with VW's own calculations they made in the 1st place. etto
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I think VW's own stock suspension is good enough personally..
I thought you were buying some Eibach springs. :confused:
Only for looks Ian .. Not interested in hitting the bends faster :innocent:
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I think VW's own stock suspension is good enough personally..
depends what your using car for steve, but if its mapped then i assume you want to go quicker and stock suspension is not very good at that
My car is for the public roads .. I would think generally if you track your car once or twice a year, I wouldn't want to drive around in a cart horse for those rare occasions the car may visit a track. Only people that use their GTi as a track day only car, would make sense to play with VW's own calculations they made in the 1st place. etto
i agree if its for the road, but again if its mapped then vw's calculations have been thrown out of window anyway.
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I think VW's own stock suspension is good enough personally..
depends what your using car for steve, but if its mapped then i assume you want to go quicker and stock suspension is not very good at that
My car is for the public roads .. I would think generally if you track your car once or twice a year, I wouldn't want to drive around in a cart horse for those rare occasions the car may visit a track. Only people that use their GTi as a track day only car, would make sense to play with VW's own calculations they made in the 1st place. etto
i agree if its for the road, but again if its mapped then vw's calculations have been thrown out of window anyway.
:grin: :congrats:
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I think VW's own stock suspension is good enough personally..
depends what your using car for steve, but if its mapped then i assume you want to go quicker and stock suspension is not very good at that
My car is for the public roads .. I would think generally if you track your car once or twice a year, I wouldn't want to drive around in a cart horse for those rare occasions the car may visit a track. Only people that use their GTi as a track day only car, would make sense to play with VW's own calculations they made in the 1st place. etto
i agree if its for the road, but again if its mapped then vw's calculations have been thrown out of window anyway.
I think VW's own stock suspension is good enough personally..
depends what your using car for steve, but if its mapped then i assume you want to go quicker and stock suspension is not very good at that
My car is for the public roads .. I would think generally if you track your car once or twice a year, I wouldn't want to drive around in a cart horse for those rare occasions the car may visit a track. Only people that use their GTi as a track day only car, would make sense to play with VW's own calculations they made in the 1st place. etto
i agree if its for the road, but again if its mapped then vw's calculations have been thrown out of window anyway.
:grin: :congrats:
Oh really, so why have they made a mk6 GTi with more horsepower with the same suspension setup then :booty:
A car may be made to go faster in a straight line for the public highways, doesn't mean the suspension is then hopeless. (which it isn't)
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were going off topic, suppose it depends how you define performance motoring, racing st's up a slip road or actually driving fast, if its the latter then you will want decent suspension and brakes otherwise you will be getting mullered by saxos :signLOL:
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were going off topic, suppose it depends how you define performance motoring, racing st's up a slip road or actually driving fast, if its the latter then you will want decent suspension and brakes otherwise you will be getting mullered by saxos :signLOL:
:drinking:
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Oh really, so why have they made a mk6 GTi with more horsepower with the same suspension setup then :booty:
A car may be made to go faster in a straight line for the public highways, doesn't mean the suspension is then hopeless. (which it isn't)
How do you know it's the same suspension setup. It looks the same but spring and damper rates could have been changed.
At the end of the day it's only 10 bhp difference...
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Oh really, so why have they made a mk6 GTi with more horsepower with the same suspension setup then :booty:
A car may be made to go faster in a straight line for the public highways, doesn't mean the suspension is then hopeless. (which it isn't)
How do you know it's the same suspension setup. It looks the same but spring and damper rates could have been changed.
At the end of the day it's only 10 bhp difference...
Same as me Ian, you don't know and neither do I chap.
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Rest assured though if they had added 50 or 60 hp they would have revised the suspension (& brakes). :happy2:
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The GTI's handling is superb on the OE kit.
With all the stuff I did to mine, I still say I never made the car 'better', I made it different. It was built to work on track.
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That's exactly right.
Throw a large chunk of horsepower at it though and you need to change stuff to match.
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The key to performance motoring is firstly to.......... REMAP YOUR DRIVER'S BRAIN!
Courses such as by Drivetrain are invaluable and can apply to whatever car you drive. It's all about Roadcraft and Awareness.
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The GTI's handling is superb on the OE kit.
With all the stuff I did to mine, I still say I never made the car 'better', I made it different. It was built to work on track.
Horraaa! Thankyou tony. That was what I was trying to say, but in a roundabout sort of way :ashamed:
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I think VW's own stock suspension is good enough personally..
....It is mostly so for a OEM standard car. But you forget that the standard car is designed for a market of folks who primarily want a comfy ride and aren't interested in tactile fun on the twisties.
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I think VW's own stock suspension is good enough personally..
....It is mostly so for a OEM standard car. But you forget that the standard car is designed for a market of folks who primarily want a comfy ride and aren't interested in tactile fun on the twisties.[/sup]
Sorry robin. Don't agree with your statement of what the GTi was designed for. That's what it's built for, fun on the twistes, and it is still a fun a capable car in whether you've added some extra horsepower. brakes in my opinion for the use on the public roads are as you say correctly ! IMO remapping your driving style to suit. It's all bull about stuff not being up to the job.
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Personally I think that handling and hence brakes mods are more important than power mods. I include the Quaife (or similar aftermarket) diff in that.
Your car doesn't know whether it's being driven fast on a road or a track - It simply responds to how it's being driven. A track driven car is just more full-on and for much longer sessions.
I want to feel as safe as possible when I drive and handling and performance mods help that enormously. The other factor is just pure (responsibly driven) fun and enthusiasm for every mile. I remapped my car after many of my handling mods.
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Sorry robin. Don't agree with your statement of what the GTi was designed for. That's what it's built for, fun on the twistes, and it is still a fun a capable car in whether you've added some extra horsepower. brakes in my opinion for the use on the public roads are as you say correctly ! IMO remapping your driving style to suit. It's all bull about stuff not being up to the job.
....I'm not saying that the standard car isn't up to the job but I am saying that it can be greatly improved to suit our individual tastes. :happy2:
Volkswagen haven't built the car which suits me best - It's a truly great allrounder which suits my lifestyle perfectly but I have felt the need to improve it.
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These cars are tested mile after mile after mile, I'm sure if these components weren't up to the job, then VW would of updated or replaced them since fitted to the mk5, and now which are STILL being used on the mk6 and even the more powerful Golf R, especially where Brakes are concerned, not sure about springs/ dampers if they have been beefed up.
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The Golf R has bigger brakes as standard.
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The Golf R has bigger brakes as standard.
that will be due to the extra weight then.
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The key to performance (Road) motoring is.......
1. Remove weight
2. Better grip from performance tyres
3. Better brakes
4. ATB LSD
The key to performance (Road and track) motoring is...
1a. Driver tuition
1b. Remove weight
2. Better grip from performance tyres
3. Better brakes
4. ATB LSD
5. Anti Roll bars
6. Fully adjustable coilovers with adjustable top mounts
7. Performance map and full bolt-ons
8. Lightweight wheels
For track focused performance add a full strip out, race seats and cage.
Lots of other bits that you can add too, but they are just "icing". :happy2:
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^^^^
You forgot the UNIbrace XB, John - Makes a big difference to how the car feels planted. :evilgrin:
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The Golf R has bigger brakes as standard.
that will be due to the extra weight then.
270PS..... :popcornsoda:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpeakcare.files.wordpress.com%2F2011%2F10%2Fhead-in-the-sand.jpg&hash=cb4299a99f3239ce21ef62c9df94960de800b791)
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The Golf R has bigger brakes as standard.
that will be due to the extra weight then.
270PS..... :popcornsoda:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpeakcare.files.wordpress.com%2F2011%2F10%2Fhead-in-the-sand.jpg&hash=cb4299a99f3239ce21ef62c9df94960de800b791)
And the weight difference is what ian between R and GTi :popcornsoda:
121kg's is it not :P
Any more reasons ? :confused:
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im lost with this thread :signLOL: the golf is a great car stock, nobody is saying it isn't, just that its better with suspension, brakes etc...., as for a mapped one, then frankly the suspension and particulary the brakes need changing with the map, whats a stage 2 plus eddy? 360bhp? thats 130 more than stock, so obvoiusly the car is overwhelmed. this isn't rocket science.
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And the weight difference is what ian between R and GTi :popcornsoda:
121kg's is it not :P
Any more reasons ? :confused:
Or about the same as a large adult man.
So if you drive the GTI with a big passenger you should change the brakes to those fitted to the .:R. :popcornsoda:
It boils down to Physics Steve 0.5mv^2 ring a bell.
So your Kinetic Energy = half the mass x velocity squared.
Your brakes convert the KE into heat so in the above equation your mass change only has half the effect so obviously that's why the Golf .:R has the bigger brakes then nothing to do with it's ability to travel faster due to the power increase.... :popcornsoda: :popcornsoda:
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What a load of mathematical bollox :signLOL: :congrats:
I think we need to agree to disagree fella.
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I'll agree you're wrong. :evilgrin:
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And you are never wrong..... :stupid:
Whatever
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And you are never wrong..... :stupid:
Whatever
Nope never said that, but as long as it's only you that think I'm stupid I'll live with that.
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And you are never wrong..... :stupid:
Whatever
Nope never said that, but as long as it's only you that think I'm stupid I'll live with that.
Good
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:popcornsoda: :grin:
Thank god for this place when there's nowt on the telly! :signLOL:
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im lost with this thread :signLOL: the golf is a great car stock, nobody is saying it isn't, just that its better with suspension, brakes etc...., as for a mapped one, then frankly the suspension and particulary the brakes need changing with the map, whats a stage 2 plus eddy? 360bhp? thats 130 more than stock, so obvoiusly the car is overwhelmed. this isn't rocket science.
.... x 2 :happy2:
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You forgot the UNIbrace XB, John - Makes a big difference to how the car feels planted. :evilgrin:
Wow... Listen to you! ;-)
Weight kills performance... Tyres, brakes and suspension all add performance... As does upping the power, but weight is the biggest factor...
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Thank god for this place when there's nowt on the telly! :signLOL:
Here to entertain, :star:
:grin:
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I thought that the edition 30 had a crashy suspension as standard. The pss10's were better in every way imaginable. On the softest setting they were more comfortable and less crashy than stock and gave a better feel to the car overall. Add to that uprated ARB's and the difference was superb. I'm not saying the stock suspension was bad, just not good and definitely not optimised! The brakes were "adequate" for a stock ED30 but a mapped ED30 definitely needs more substantial brakes than the OEM ones.....unless you drive Miss Daisy around, and if you drive a mapped ED30 I'd expect 100% of you will at some point drive it faster than a stock one would go at a given point on a road.
As for tyres, a car is only ever as good as the quality of the contact patch between the road and the wheel. Putting cheap/poor tyres on a sports hatch is like putting Ronaldo in wellies!
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Ronaldo in wellies!
Watch that clown FAIL at the Euros. Never does it for his country.
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You forgot the UNIbrace XB, John - Makes a big difference to how the car feels planted. :evilgrin:
Wow... Listen to you! ;-)
Weight kills performance... Tyres, brakes and suspension all add performance... As does upping the power, but weight is the biggest factor...
that's the manufactures reason for bigger brakes from the outset... Except some people don't agree :evilgrin:
..but what do I know .. :fighting2:
:popcornsoda:
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:popcornsoda: :grin:
Thank god for this place when there's nowt on the telly! :signLOL:
At least Eastenders is unpredictable Nathan... :indifferent:
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^^^^
There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding in most of this thread:
I don't think that anyone is saying that the ex-factory, standard Golf is a poor performer or inadequate - It's a great car and a true allrounder and so are all of the standard OEM Golf variants.
What most folks are saying is that there is room for IMPROVEMENT.
Depending on how you, the individual car owner/driver, want to use your car, a whole range of aftermarket mods offer endless possibilities. The Germans are clever enough to realise that the Mad Englishmen (and others) can take their car to the next level and beyond at their own expense.
@ SaintSteve:
I'm thinking that as someone very keen indeed on detailing, you would prefer if VW had provided much better paint thickness etc. But they only do what is adequate for their main commercial market. In other words, paint is only one area which could be improved.
In spite of a GTI badge, VW don't provide the brakes and suspension for very enthusiastic use - Why should they? It might seem that us lot are the only folks who drive GTI's but it's not the case. It makes more sense for them to provide a good basis at a competitive cost for us to modify to suit our individual needs. For me, that means modding so it's a primarily safe and tactile car with a good balance between performance and handling: Fast road responsible fun with the capability to occasionally enjoy a trackday (if I can ever afford to again!).
Don't forget that the GTI is only a variant of a mass market factory production Golf. It's not designed and built like a Koenigsegg.
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yup, my ED30 was great out the box.
But if you just stuck the Bilstein B12 on, Dave's NQSBBK and S3 rears you would have a much "better" car. If you then went with ARB's, WALK, TT Wishbones and Unibrace XB & UB you would again have a far QUICKER car without increasing power/torque.
I dont know if any members have children approaching 17 but if all they could afford was a 1.0 Fiesta but yet wanted to modify like Dad/Mum, they could make the car quicker/safer by spending all their money on tyres, brake upgrade/springs and dampers upgrade as opposed to going for some tacky drainpipe backbox and a K & N 57i
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Weight is only a contributory factor in the manufacturer fitting bigger brakes.
120 kg difference between MK6 GTI and .:R is roughly 10% but 210 to 270PS is nearly 30% increase of course they fitted them because it weighs more.... :popcornsoda:
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I dont know if any members have children approaching 17 but if all they could afford was a 1.0 Fiesta but yet wanted to modify like Dad/Mum, they could make the car quicker/safer by spending all their money on tyres, brake upgrade/springs and dampers upgrade as opposed to going for some tacky drainpipe backbox and a K & N 57i
....I know exactly what you mean! A neighbour's 19yo grandson had a bright red noisy Saxo with bodykit and was read the riot act by the local Police. His solution was to swop it for a black Seat Leon but then he added a huge white vinyl stripe down the bonnet and another baked bean can exhaust which has a truly horrible sound. I'm really hoping the Police will act soon.
However, my 21yo daughter is interested in a BMW Mini if she buys her own car after Uni and fancied a pink VW Beetle when she was 17.
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Weight is only a contributory factor in the manufacturer fitting bigger brakes.
120 kg difference between MK6 GTI and .:R is roughly 10% but 210 to 270PS is nearly 30% increase of course they fitted them because it weighs more.... :popcornsoda:
Something heavier travelling faster needs bigger brakes... it's a contribution of both... :drinking:
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Weight is only a contributory factor in the manufacturer fitting bigger brakes.
120 kg difference between MK6 GTI and .:R is roughly 10% but 210 to 270PS is nearly 30% increase of course they fitted them because it weighs more.... :popcornsoda:
....Yep, it's pretty basic physics that the heavier an object is, the more energy/force is required to bring it to a halt when it's moving. And the faster it's moving.................. :laugh:
Then there's also braking distances.
Better to have powerful brakes and not need them than to need them and not have them!
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I dont know if any members have children approaching 17 but if all they could afford was a 1.0 Fiesta but yet wanted to modify like Dad/Mum, they could make the car quicker/safer by spending all their money on tyres, brake upgrade/springs and dampers upgrade as opposed to going for some tacky drainpipe backbox and a K & N 57i
....I know exactly what you mean! A neighbour's 19yo grandson had a bright red noisy Saxo with bodykit and was read the riot act by the local Police. His solution was to swop it for a black Seat Leon but then he added a huge white vinyl stripe down the bonnet and another baked bean can exhaust which has a truly horrible sound. I'm really hoping the Police will act soon.
However, my 21yo daughter is interested in a BMW Mini if she buys her own car after Uni and fancied a pink VW Beetle when she was 17.
Exactly. Robin, can you not take him by the scruff of the neck and say "look son, i am the Modfather and will give you some advice. If you want your saxo/leon to be quicker without increasing power (and therefore having insurance implications) you should stick some eibach/h&r/kw/bilstein kit on, some premium tyres and bigger brakes front and rear. you will then be able to outbrake other cars in your class going into the McDonalds drive thru, and after you have picked up your burger be able to negotiate the exit quicker also" :grin:
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Weight is only a contributory factor in the manufacturer fitting bigger brakes.
120 kg difference between MK6 GTI and .:R is roughly 10% but 210 to 270PS is nearly 30% increase of course they fitted them because it weighs more.... :popcornsoda:
So why on the ed35 are they the very same brakes fitted from the old 197bhp gti Ian if your so correct and vw got it wrong ?
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Weight is only a contributory factor in the manufacturer fitting bigger brakes.
120 kg difference between MK6 GTI and .:R is roughly 10% but 210 to 270PS is nearly 30% increase of course they fitted them because it weighs more.... :popcornsoda:
So why on the ed35 are they the very same brakes fitted from the old 197bhp gti Ian if your so correct and vw got it wrong ?
Who said VW got it wrong? As the Ed35 is a Mk6 it's best to compare it to the 210PS GTI Steve.
Not sure if there's a change in weight but only around a 10% increase in hp shouldn't make too much difference. However throw a remap at it and it becomes a whole different ball game.
25-30% increase in power (a bit like a Golf R which gains bigger brakes for the weight increase of a passenger) then better brakes need to happen. After all that's the criteria that VW use.
What happens if you add more than one passenger? You could easily add 3 or 4 passengers to a Golf adding 300 or 400 Kilos. What you're saying is because you have added weight that means you should then uprate the brakes. :surprised:
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Weight is only a contributory factor in the manufacturer fitting bigger brakes.
120 kg difference between MK6 GTI and .:R is roughly 10% but 210 to 270PS is nearly 30% increase of course they fitted them because it weighs more.... :popcornsoda:
So why on the ed35 are they the very same brakes fitted from the old 197bhp gti Ian if your so correct and vw got it wrong ?
Who said VW got it wrong? As the Ed35 is a Mk6 it's best to compare it to the 210PS GTI Steve.
Not sure if there's a change in weight but only around a 10% increase in hp shouldn't make too much difference. However throw a remap at it and it becomes a whole different ball game.
25-30% increase in power (a bit like a Golf R which gains bigger brakes for the weight increase of a passenger) then better brakes need to happen. After all that's the criteria that VW use.
What happens if you add more than one passenger? You could easily add 3 or 4 passengers to a Golf adding 300 or 400 Kilos. What you're saying is because you have added weight that means you should then uprate the brakes. :surprised:
Ian, see your missing the whole point of my 1st post. I'm not talking about remaps here, I'm talking about a std car, without ANY mods at all. You've turned this all about talking about adding bits/remaps/adding weight (passengers) etc, when like the O.P was asking people's thoughts of a standard spec car and it's setup.
I say it again. VW got their choice right for its choice of components and the cars setup from the factory.. IMO !!
They put bigger brakes on the mk4 and mk5 R32 and Golf R due to the extra weight.....The mk4 R32 was 238bhp with larger calipers then the current lighter 235 Ed35 that as it goes is a lighter car...:indifferent:
Theyve been fitted the normal sized 312 brakes to the Std mk5 GTi, Ed30, std mk6 GTi, and now Ed35.. Can you not see that the two heavier cars are fitted with the larger brakes for the reason as they weigh more and require them to Stop. The other cars weigh less and in their calculations, used the smaller 312's.
I still think VW got it spot on from the off, and hence why it got such brilliant reviews by ALL journo's.
These cars are designed for the road ORIGONALLY, and not a test track/racing curcuit.
Please stop going on about remap this and x +y = MC hammer that, goes completely out the window when you add more power (modify) and add the factor of the weight of the car in question or model/type.
Hope you now understand FULLY my reply to the O.P's question and my response was thus.
:confused:
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Off to bang my head against a brick wall as that's much more rewarding. :sad:
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Off to bang my head against a brick wall as that's much more rewarding. :sad:
:laugh:
welcome to the club.... :stupid:
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Re the stock brakes alone, they are sh*t. My ED30 was stock, then mapped later on. Yes I should have uprated them, but didn't, and had to drive very conservatively most of the time. (Incidentaly, I should have kept the car, and uprated them !)