MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: Bazgti on June 14, 2012, 10:10:37 pm
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Hi Guys,
Regarding previous posts of 'Awesome switching back to APR'.
I just thought id update you on my findings.
I mentioned a while back that i was an Awesome customer and have been for a number of years while in ownership of 2 GTIs and an Anni while my uncle had his Leon Cupra R.
Obviously it caused a bit of a stir on a fair few forums and with mod'd VAG owners. Particularly with the reasons of the switch. To me personally the most important thing was power and performance and dealer back up if things went wrong.
When i bought my Mk5 in May 11 awesome were using Revo. My Anni, Mk4 Gti and the Cupra were all on APR and was over the moon with them throughout. Mark however told me that because of internal issues with APR they had decided to use Revo so happily i went along as id come to trust his views and opinions.
Now to my point....
Iv been using Revo for about 10months. Its been fine, but not spectacular. I found the power to be very aggressive and raw which in part made the drive jittery and hard work when trying to lay the power down cleanly, however i can note the fuel economy was excellent especially when i went to stage 2.
When the news broke i called Mark and discussed my options as i didnt really fancy driving x amount of miles to the next Revo dealer. Him being the way he is, he told me straight. He admitted that Revo had the edge at that point, That while working with Revo they had been excellent and the customer backup had been brilliant.
Buuuut..... APR were back! The 'issues' were in the past, the software was to be re tested to bring it to a competative level with the opposition and i had nothing to worry bout, leave it with him.
Now i spent a fair few weeks mulling over my options of driving further afield to another dealer, asking myself would i be happy losing power and performance? Would i even need the back up of the dealer at all?
I came to the conclusion that living with a little less power would be a better option than driving miles away to a dealer i had no previous experience with, after all Awesome have been true to their names since day 1.
Anyways... Got the call to come down and do a before and after rolling road with Revo stage 2 software against the new APR Stage 2.
RESULTS :-
Revo 239.7 bhp with 312.5lb/ft of torque
APR 246.8 bhp with 317.9lb/ft of torque
(Both with piper x panel filter, Turbo back Milltek with High flow cat and software)
I have the print outs to prove and will add them later when i have more time. Now i like to chase numbers n while its not an epic amount of 'stallions' more its not a bad gain for simply changing maps.
The curve on the graph is much more crisp and rounded and the on the all important drive the acceleration is far smoother and manageable. On my daily commute i usually do 32mpg, im getting a touch more now at 33.5.
SO to conclude.... Im in no way saying APR is better n Revo is worse as itl open that HUUUUGE tin of worms it usually does im just saying that ive had the pleasure of running both options and i find the APR software ticks more boxes and suits my need that little bit better.
Thanks for reading. Hope this helps
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So basically the point your trying to get across is that revo is sh*t!!!!!!!!!! :signLOL:
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Oh dear :scared: this is going to be a looooooooooong thread,
It's very interesting in your findings tho, strange as I have seem the opposite from revo side of things IE revo producing more power etc etc, it's good that stuff like this keeps the tuners on there toes :drinking:
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This thread is useless without both a pic of both RR graphs and what revo settings you were using. :jumping:
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Interesting torque figures!
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This thread is useless without both a pic of both RR graphs and what revo settings you were using. :jumping:
When im not on the iphone il happily stick em :smiley:
Interesting torque? In what way?
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Oh dear :scared: this is going to be a looooooooooong thread,
It's very interesting in your findings tho, strange as I have seem the opposite from revo side of things IE revo producing more power etc etc, it's good that stuff like this keeps the tuners on there toes :drinking:
Which version of APR are you comparing against?
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Ive flashed 20+ Revo stg2 files and set them up on the dyno and not seen torque figures of much more than 275-280ftlb. But I do usually see 250-260hp.
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Ive flashed 20+ Revo stg2 files and set them up on the dyno and not seen torque figures of much more than 275-280ftlb. But I do usually see 250-260hp.
My stg 1 K03 made 300lbft on JKM's DD rollers. Nothing quite like the age old dyno lottery. :smiley:
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Im quite dissapointed with horsey figures tbh. It did 233 at stage 1 so not really the big gains i was expecting buuut Mark said its probably being restricted by the crap panel filter.
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Torque output vastly depends on the method used to measure the RPM vs mph ratio on the dyno.
Peak numbers are relatively unimportant, its all about the curves.
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:popcornsoda: Sitting back comfortably...
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Has anyone else done same comparision? Im in a position to try to pick either one, APR or Revo (stage 2) sw. I want the one giving most power and I think Revo still has the edge with the ability to finetune the settings. Awesome www-pages do advertise that Revo has been giving bigger numbers on their dyno
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Ive flashed 20+ Revo stg2 files and set them up on the dyno and not seen torque figures of much more than 275-280ftlb. But I do usually see 250-260hp.
I'm sorry but Awesome's RR is not to be believed, it needs re calibrating or something. It suggested my car was pulling over 400lb ft of torque, which on a KO4 Stg 2+ is not possible. You are talking Lamborghini levels.
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two people from this forum have gone from revo stage 2 plus on a k04 to APR stage 2 plus. And they arent awesome GTI customers :popcornsoda:
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torque figure quoted is unreal for stage 1 K03 car!
K04 car makes 330 lbft torque!
Paul
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All fun and games in tuner market Tuner A criticises Tuner B with respect to their maps making more power and pushing the envelope, then Tuner A starts pumping out maps with even more power than Tuner B and start willy waiving
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:popcornsoda: Sitting back comfortably...
Extra large bag of Doritos on standby. :popcornsoda:
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On a side note; I wouldn't go Revo stage 2 on a Edition 30 unless you have TBE, Intake, Uprated Fuel Pump... it just doesn't work with a panel filter and a 3" downpipe/sports cat... :laugh:
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On a side note; I wouldn't go Revo stage 2 on a Edition 30 unless you have TBE, Intake, Uprated Fuel Pump... it just doesn't work with a panel filter and a 3" downpipe/sports cat... :laugh:
If your implying to me there. I have a Gti not an Eddy but i tend to agree but Rome wasnt built in a day the intake a hpfp are next on the agenda
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Well this will be a interesting thread - but its also made my decision even harder now!!! :mad:
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On a side note; I wouldn't go Revo stage 2 on a Edition 30 unless you have TBE, Intake, Uprated Fuel Pump... it just doesn't work with a panel filter and a 3" downpipe/sports cat... :laugh:
If your implying to me there. I have a Gti not an Eddy but i tend to agree but Rome wasnt built in a day the intake a hpfp are next on the agenda
Wasn't really, just wanted to add as a side note... :happy2:
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My Ed30 is APR stage 2, unfortunately never had it on the rollers otherwise I'd happily put a graph up
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My Ed30 is APR stage 2, unfortunately never had it on the rollers otherwise I'd happily put a graph up
Said Revo stage 2 on eddy... :happy2:
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I have no experience of APR, their maps could well be better than Revo, but I dont think Revo will take it lying down, their new Stage 2+ map may well be as a fightback against the surge of APR popularity.
I think a lot of it comes down to your local trusted tuner. If the person I trust to do all the work on my car ditched Revo for APR I would probably trust his judgment, just as people who swear by JKM, Statlllers, PDT would even though part of the reason could be a financial carrot waved at the tuner in question.
You can still only push the TFSI so far before it goes pop regardless of which map you have so we may as well all agree that the re map is still best bang for buck regardless of which one you have :drinking:
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Theres lots to happen this year with APR/REVO - good news is prices cant change on the maps much, expect to part with some healthy cash for the new hardware, but as long as technically they're feuding theres only going to be one winner.
Additionally the revo dealers left generally are the very dedicated ones...... that said APR have the initiative right now on new products that wont last for ever and the positive cycle will continue.
Jonny C's taking a lot of flack at the moment for switching sides but the only variables in the equation are the customer service levels at both tuning houses, REVO have had to get their Sh1t together big time and thats still ongoing....they were complacent and got ambushed by US special forces!
Previous issues with APR have gone away now that they're sat in VWR's back garden - its a big statement moving to the UK and tieing up with VWR...
VWR Brakes are still a grand overpriced though........
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Theres lots to happen this year with APR/REVO - good news is prices cant change on the maps much, expect to part with some healthy cash for the new hardware, but as long as technically they're feuding theres only going to be one winner.
Additionally the revo dealers left generally are the very dedicated ones...... that said APR have the initiative right now on new products that wont last for ever and the positive cycle will continue.
Jonny C's taking a lot of flack at the moment for switching sides but the only variables in the equation are the customer service levels at both tuning houses, REVO have had to get their Sh1t together big time and thats still ongoing....they were complacent and got ambushed by US special forces!
Previous issues with APR have gone away now that they're sat in VWR's back garden - its a big statement moving to the UK and tieing up with VWR...
VWR Brakes are still a grand overpriced though........
lol quality, little bit at the bottom. Sod it lets all get Blu Fin or Celtic Tuning FTW :jumpmove:
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Well i have had both when my GTI was "stock" K04 converted. IF APR has gone a bit more customer oriented in their approach the choice is going both ways for me. But when you decide to go a bit further REVO has been able to accomodate what need i have had whereas APR are working within a narrow frame hardwarewise, so no competition for REVO there.
On a sidenote i'm eagerly :popcornsoda: what the main man's verdict will be after his current operation on the red devil is done. Really looking forward to hearing what SteveP's verdict is, he if any will have experienced APR's customer service first hand :happy2:
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(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FDetailing%2FStickers%2Fspy-vs-spy.jpg&hash=88763356284c4abf604ce631408b02156df96485)
Except that APR and Revo aren't shaking hands :evilgrin:
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Hi Guys,
Regarding previous posts of 'Awesome switching back to APR'.
I just thought id update you on my findings.
I mentioned a while back that i was an Awesome customer and have been for a number of years while in ownership of 2 GTIs and an Anni while my uncle had his Leon Cupra R.
Obviously it caused a bit of a stir on a fair few forums and with mod'd VAG owners. Particularly with the reasons of the switch. To me personally the most important thing was power and performance and dealer back up if things went wrong.
When i bought my Mk5 in May 11 awesome were using Revo. My Anni, Mk4 Gti and the Cupra were all on APR and was over the moon with them throughout. Mark however told me that because of internal issues with APR they had decided to use Revo so happily i went along as id come to trust his views and opinions.
Now to my point....
Iv been using Revo for about 10months. Its been fine, but not spectacular. I found the power to be very aggressive and raw which in part made the drive jittery and hard work when trying to lay the power down cleanly, however i can note the fuel economy was excellent especially when i went to stage 2.
When the news broke i called Mark and discussed my options as i didnt really fancy driving x amount of miles to the next Revo dealer. Him being the way he is, he told me straight. He admitted that Revo had the edge at that point, That while working with Revo they had been excellent and the customer backup had been brilliant.
Buuuut..... APR were back! The 'issues' were in the past, the software was to be re tested to bring it to a competative level with the opposition and i had nothing to worry bout, leave it with him.
Now i spent a fair few weeks mulling over my options of driving further afield to another dealer, asking myself would i be happy losing power and performance? Would i even need the back up of the dealer at all?
I came to the conclusion that living with a little less power would be a better option than driving miles away to a dealer i had no previous experience with, after all Awesome have been true to their names since day 1.
Anyways... Got the call to come down and do a before and after rolling road with Revo stage 2 software against the new APR Stage 2.
RESULTS :-
Revo 239.7 bhp with 312.5lb/ft of torque
APR 246.8 bhp with 317.9lb/ft of torque
(Both with piper x panel filter, Turbo back Milltek with High flow cat and software)
I have the print outs to prove and will add them later when i have more time. Now i like to chase numbers n while its not an epic amount of 'stallions' more its not a bad gain for simply changing maps.
The curve on the graph is much more crisp and rounded and the on the all important drive the acceleration is far smoother and manageable. On my daily commute i usually do 32mpg, im getting a touch more now at 33.5.
SO to conclude.... Im in no way saying APR is better n Revo is worse as itl open that HUUUUGE tin of worms it usually does im just saying that ive had the pleasure of running both options and i find the APR software ticks more boxes and suits my need that little bit better.
Thanks for reading. Hope this helps
so in other words you've wasted £500+ on a new map that gives you ultimately the same result?? All bar 6bhp, which could be difference in Air temps... And any number of minor factors giving a tiny gain..
Graphs would be handy though? But can't see your logic into why you wanted to change ?
your bum dyno isn't gonna feel a 5lb ft of gain, only in your mind it will.
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Nope! Ive wasted nothing. It was FREEEEEE....
As it was stated in the original thread. Awesome are happy to consider everyones individual case. In my case i was granted the option of having my car re flashed with the new software and because i wasnt completly satisfied with Revo n have been previously with APR i decided to go ahead with the recommendation from mark.
The figures arent mind bogglingly (made up word) different i agree but looking at the graphs the curve is far more rounded and the drive is far less of a toil.
Like i said il happlily get the graphs up wen i get chance.
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I have no experience of APR, their maps could well be better than Revo, but I dont think Revo will take it lying down, their new Stage 2+ map may well be as a fightback against the surge of APR popularity.
I think a lot of it comes down to your local trusted tuner. If the person I trust to do all the work on my car ditched Revo for APR I would probably trust his judgment, just as people who swear by JKM, Statlllers, PDT would even though part of the reason could be a financial carrot waved at the tuner in question.
You can still only push the TFSI so far before it goes pop regardless of which map you have so we may as well all agree that the re map is still best bang for buck regardless of which one you have :drinking:
Hopefully not too long to wait for the new REVO stg2+ software :-)
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Saint steve the APR code drives completely different to that of Revo it holds high rpm power much better.
From what I've been told, the things Revo are changing in their updated map is basically copying APR's map, they are attempting to mimic APR's high rpm power holding and are turning it down a bit in the lower rev ranges.
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Saint steve the APR code drives completely different to that of Revo it holds high rpm power much better.
From what I've been told, the things Revo are changing in their updated map is basically copying APR's map, they are attempting to mimic APR's high rpm power holding and are turning it down a bit in the lower rev ranges.
Lol. I don't think anyone knows all the facts and the ultimate truths.
The APR software is good, the Revo software is good. These days they all make around the same power.
Revo give linear throttle as an option on most of their maps, APR took a lot of work to agree to put it onto Mike's car which now drives very well. Imo the map on full throttle was good, but undrivable on part throttle.
One fact I can state is that the new versions of Revo's maps were being developed long before APR came back over here. I've had a version on my own car for a long time now.
Pov, which codes are you referring to?
Debates like this are good, but they do tend to end up with biased opinions.
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:popcornsoda:
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Lol. I don't think anyone knows all the facts and the ultimate truths.
The APR software is good, the Revo software is good. These days they all make around the same power.
Revo give linear throttle as an option on most of their maps, APR took a lot of work to agree to put it onto Mike's car which now drives very well. Imo the map on full throttle was good, but undrivable on part throttle.
One fact I can state is that the new versions of Revo's maps were being developed long before APR came back over here. I've had a version on my own car for a long time now.
Debates like this are good, but they do tend to end up with biased opinions.
....Very much agreed :happy2:
Unless we have a particularly bad experience each one of us will invariably think that what we have chosen is the best. Afterall, why else would you choose it?
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:popcornsoda: Sitting back comfortably...
:signLOL:
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Expect to see lots of progress from both protagonists. Affordable tuning is on its way in my opinion.
It's six and two threes at the moment between them, expect both parties trying to take the initiative with hardware soon.
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Expect to see lots of progress from both protagonists. Affordable tuning is on its way in my opinion.
It's six and two threes at the moment between them, expect both parties trying to take the initiative with hardware soon.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FRED_INK%2FAPRvsRevo.jpg&hash=b726c5840e5032a7ec5954fa9a6afaaca1603e2c)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FDetailing%2FStickers%2FPopcorn_smiley.jpg&hash=7ba2e43dc4d5610b69c9577f25972a8df225fcbf)
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It's all very interesting points people have made here both from APR and Revo stand point.
I have not tried Revo (mainly due non existence in New Zealand) I am running K03 APR myself.
something interesting to note, anyone that has paid for an APR remap. They can go ahead a buy any other tuners remap too.
Other than paying a labour fee (dependent on shop). Any car can be reflashed back to APR remap. So in essence the remap is free the labour is dependent on the actual shop you take your car too.
At least this is what I was been lead to believe, for the past 2+ years.
So all those customers that jumped ship from APR to Revo when Awesome changed partnerships. Could very well get their cars back from Revo to APR.
It really depends on if Awesome want to charge a labour fee.
Will be watching this thread for the outcome both from Dyno Graphs and boost graphs.