MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: nads1_uk on July 17, 2012, 12:29:41 pm
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Hi I'm after some help.
I have a completely standard Gti. I need to chage the brakes all round. I'm also going to get the brake fluid changed as it hasn't been done for a while. Is there an upgrade in brake pads I can get as I don't rate the standard setup. I would only be looking at pads not complete caliper setups. The car is only used as a daily drive and not going to be used on track.
Any help would be greatly received.
Cheers
Andy
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I'd go for braided lines, ATE Blue brake fluid and some DS2500 pads. These 3 should see you right.
Fish
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I'd go for braided lines, ATE Blue brake fluid and some DS2500 pads. These 3 should see you right.
Fish
How much are these pads and is there a recommended cheapest supplier?
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For pads and hoses I'd recommend the in house brake wizard DaveB
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DS2500 aren't road legal and if you never track the car they are overdone.
The best street parts for reasonable money: :happy2:
- Brembo or Ate PowerDisc rotors
- Ferodo DS Performance
- Tyrol Sport caliper bushings
- Ate SuperBlue fluid
There are even better discs like Tarox Zero and better pads like Endless MX72,
but for street only you won't need really these. :wink: All pads that beat the
DS Performance are not road legal (MX72, DS2500, RS4-2 etc.).
If you rate low dust over bite you might get Ate Ceramic pads instead. Stay
away from EBC pads. They're crap.
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DS2500 aren't road legal and if you never track the car they are overdone.
....I'd just like to say that they are road legal if supplied with a brake kit designed with them - AP Racing BBK, for example. However, they now produce their own pads for their kits.
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Cheers for all the replies fellas :happy2:
Andy
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DS2500 aren't road legal and if you never track the car they are overdone.
The best street parts for reasonable money: :happy2:
- Brembo or Ate PowerDisc rotors
- Ferodo DS Performance
- Tyrol Sport caliper bushings
- Ate SuperBlue fluid
There are even better discs like Tarox Zero and better pads like Endless MX72,
but for street only you won't need really these. :wink: All pads that beat the
DS Performance are not road legal (MX72, DS2500, RS4-2 etc.).
If you rate low dust over bite you might get Ate Ceramic pads instead. Stay
away from EBC pads. They're crap.
Bruce, how do you think the above would compare with an R32 brake kit (is there much performance difference?)
Graeme
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I've never driven the R32 setup on a GTI (just on R32, A3 3.2, S3 and TT 3.2 and this is some years ago).
With some added ventilation (removed shields, RS3 vent) it may perform similar at lower cost and weight.
However you won't overheat DS Performance pads on street if you drive in a license friendly manner.
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^^ Great thanks :notworthy:
That should do for me then :smiley:
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Can you fit DS2500 pads to and R32 kit on a GTi? :popcornsoda:
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Why not? 'Can' or 'may'?
Try a shop if they supply DS2500 for the R32.
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Sorry I meant legally...
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DS2500 aren't road legal and if you never track the car they are overdone.
The best street parts for reasonable money: :happy2:
- Brembo or Ate PowerDisc rotors
- Ferodo DS Performance
- Tyrol Sport caliper bushings
- Ate SuperBlue fluid
There are even better discs like Tarox Zero and better pads like Endless MX72,
but for street only you won't need really these. :wink: All pads that beat the
DS Performance are not road legal (MX72, DS2500, RS4-2 etc.).
If you rate low dust over bite you might get Ate Ceramic pads instead. Stay
away from EBC pads. They're crap.
Any links to these mate for an edition 30, bit of a novice on the modifiying front?
cheers
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Can you fit DS2500 pads to and R32 kit on a GTi? :popcornsoda:
Sorry I meant legally...
....Surely, even during a MOT, the depth of the brake pads may be checked (I assume they are), but do they check what brand/type the pads are?
Why would the DS2500's be illegal anyway? - They aren't inadequate at braking a car.
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brake pads are only visually checked on an mot they are not allowed to remove anything to check so as far as they are concerned the make doesnt matter, its the brake efficiency that counts. what a farce the mot is dont check something as basic as tyre pressures
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brake pads are only visually checked on an mot they are not allowed to remove anything to check so as far as they are concerned the make doesnt matter, its the brake efficiency that counts. what a farce the mot is dont check something as basic as tyre pressures
.... :happy2:
And are DS2500's considered to give inefficient braking? - I'm trying to understand DS2500's apparently being 'illegal'.
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Why would the DS2500's be illegal anyway? - They aren't inadequate at braking a car.
I found this on another forum:
ECE Regulation 90 (R90)
European legislation came into effect September 1999 titled ECE R90 that stipulates that all brake pads sold for use on vehicles manufactured after this date must be tested and comply to R90 standards.
This test which involves taking each homologated vehicle used on the public roads within Europe and comparing the front and rear brake performance with the original parts to those of aftermarket offerings. The test includes cold and hot brake friction analysis, and if a part has been approved to R90, it can be safely assumed that the product is equal to or better than original equipment product. The brake pads are then marked with an R90 code number and a country code in a circle such as E1 for Germany or E11 for UK which signifies where the testing has been done.
Factory approval is part of the R90 process which involves engineers inspecting and accrediting the factory manufacturing the product before approval is given.
Ferodo technical actually told me today the following;
""The use of Ferodo DS 2500 pads on ANY car ( apart from a certain Aston Martin, whose use of this pad got homologation, due to the stopping power required and so therefore became the OE part! ) is totally illegal for road use and apparently there was a famous case not so so long ago where Devonshire Police asked Ferodo to identify the pads fitted in a highly tuned Corsa involved in a RTA where a woman died. The driver of the Corsa was prosecuted for using these pads !""
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EBC pads reg90 approval is from China......
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^^^^
Cheers for that info :drinking:
That info suggests that DS2500's give inadequate braking performance. Yet the difference in braking power between OEM front brakes and AP's with DS2500's when those pads were fitted on mine was like night and day!
The legal aspect must be the true reason why AP Racing have stopped supplying DS2500's in their kits and now have their own pads.
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And are DS2500's considered to give inefficient braking? - I'm trying to understand DS2500's apparently being 'illegal'.
It's quite the contrary in fact Robin :happy2:
For a brake pad to be considered road legal it has to gain 'Reg90' approval and meet within tolerance a specification set out to meet the minimum performance requirements of the oem pads, this helps to both regulate the industry and also provide the consumer with some protection as to the provenence of any replacement pads they fit to an oem application..
Where the non road legality of 'performance' pads such as the DS2500 etc comes in is that the Reg90 specs demand that any pad must meet the specification within a maximum tolerance of 15%, however this tolerance also extends to 15% above the baseline so any pad that performs 15% or greater is considered outside Reg90 and therefore not 'road legal'
Another factor is the prohibitively high cost of gaining Reg90 approval which means that some manufacturers simply don't bother testing low volume pad compounds...
:smiley:
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That's interesting about the overperformance bit. If the Devonshire Police story is true then anyone running track pads on the road will have to change them.
I wonder if you were in the dock having caused a crash, but having had better than OEM pads would a judge rule against you? I'm not a lawyer, but I could see how it would be upsetting to be prosecuted for exceeding standards?
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^^^^
Interesting :happy2:
It does seem ridiculous to me to limit the above-the-baseline tolerance such that a pad can be deemed as illegal because it performs braking more strongly. I thought that better/stronger braking power was beneficial to safety! And shouldn't safety on the road be the absolutely primary consideration?
It does have to be said that when having awesome braking power it becomes very important to assume that any vehicle behind you doesn't have that braking capability and so you must drive accordingly.
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I wonder if you were in the dock having caused a crash, but having had better than OEM pads would a judge rule against you? I'm not a lawyer, but I could see how it would be upsetting to be prosecuted for exceeding standards?
....I think it's reasonable to say that many performance mods, not just brakes, exceed OEM standards.
I can see a day coming sometime in the future when it is made illegal to modify any road car in any way whatsoever - Yuk!! I hope I will have retired from the joy of driving before that day comes.
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Are m1144 Reg90 Steve?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MINTEX-FRONT-RACING-BRAKE-PADS-VW-GOLF-MK5-R32-4MOTION-3-2-05-07-MDB2677M1144-/370546118993?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item5646451151#ht_4387wt_1165
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Are m1144 Reg90 Steve?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MINTEX-FRONT-RACING-BRAKE-PADS-VW-GOLF-MK5-R32-4MOTION-3-2-05-07-MDB2677M1144-/370546118993?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item5646451151#ht_4387wt_1165
Sadly not mate, but they do come with a snazzy 'not for road use' sticker to make you feel like a braking rebel :happy2:
I'd also be highly sceptical of the stock availability of that particular eBay seller, stock of the 2677 pad in M1144 is severely limited and even though camskill show stock them admit they would only order direct from Mintex Uk (questmead) who themselves have no stock at present (up until last month anyways)
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Red, it might end up like California then. Only checked modifications are street legal. So it is already happening out there.
Fish
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It's a load of PC Mumbo jumbo really.
The reg came into effect in Sept 99. How many kits have AP sold since then that came with DS2500 pads???
Also looking at the rules I think it only applies to cars still using OEM caliper set up - not if you have fitted an after market set up!
Kit I bought was supplied brand new to its buyer in 2010 with DS2500 pads. If they did this with reg90 being in place since 1999 then surely they are ok?? :stupid:
Or does that mean fitting AP kits are actually "illegal" On a road car??
Found this http://www.apracing.com/drawings/Individual%20Product%20Sections/2012_Brake%20Pads.pdf
Looks like AP say the DS2500 Is ok for road use like the APF404 pad they've released
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Which is why i asked if ok to use on scirocco calipers on an edition 30... They are oem, but considered a bbk to the edition 30...
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Classic post from 2007 by Badger5 Bill Brockbank on SCN!
I have posted on this several times before.. searchy will find it.
Yes DS2500's are performance pads, classed as Race on the box.
Reg90 is a bullsh*t reg from EU, meant to stop poor performing pads from being sold as equivalents to OE spec... which makes sense. What they did was apply a 15% of OE fircition coefficient, but then cocked it up by not just making it within 15% of OE on the negative side, but made it +/-15% of OE. this then makes "BETTER" performing pads outside of reg 90 because they perform better.
functionally they work far better than stock, and this is why so many people want to run them.
If you were concerned about the pad in the event of a serious (fatal) road crash, then I can imagine the scenario of the car being taken to bits to determin the cause. Too good a brake pad would'nt likely be one of them, nor identifying every component on the car against every standard around. the only identifyer on the pads is the printing on the back of the pads, which is only printed on.... and can wear off. with nothing printed or legible on the pad, determining the make, let alone the model & spec would seem impossible. Crash test investigation would confirm they were "working" and had sufficient pad material.
you can hypothosise as much as you like as to "what if", and would'nt likely ever leave the house as a consequence.
Reality is the pads perform superbly, stop far better than OE, which when Oe fade in hard use, and DS2500's dont, then the DS2500's would be the safer pads to run.
MOT brake testing takes no account of brake materials fitted to the cars, only that they work sufficiently well, which is the important aspect obviously.
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Reg90 is a bullsh*t reg from EU, meant to stop poor performing pads from being sold as equivalents to OE spec... which makes sense.
How can EBC pads pass this then! Must be the worst pad out on the market.
Fish
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Exactly!!! Total BS
http://www.ebcbrakes.com/automotive/regulation90.shtml
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Thanks for your previous post Lee... so i suppose a quick rub with some wet and dry to remove the Ferodo markings and no one will be able to tell what they are. :happy2:
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Thanks for your previous post Lee... so i suppose a quick rub with some wet and dry to remove the Ferodo markings and no one will be able to tell what they are. :happy2:
If it comes to that they can always send it off for material analysis and decide from there what brand / type of pad it is.
But yeah that's an idea Rich pre install :signLOL:
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And are there any regs for brake discs?
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It's a load of PC Mumbo jumbo really.
The reg came into effect in Sept 99. How many kits have AP sold since then that came with DS2500 pads???
Also looking at the rules I think it only applies to cars still using OEM caliper set up - not if you have fitted an after market set up!
Kit I bought was supplied brand new to its buyer in 2010 with DS2500 pads. If they did this with reg90 being in place since 1999 then surely they are ok?? :stupid:
Or does that mean fitting AP kits are actually "illegal" On a road car??
Found this http://www.apracing.com/drawings/Individual%20Product%20Sections/2012_Brake%20Pads.pdf
Looks like AP say the DS2500 Is ok for road use like the APF404 pad they've released
....AP themselves supplied and fitted my BBK at Coventry in September 2006 and the kit was originally supplied with DS2500 pads and there was no mention of Reg90 to me. I continued to replace pads with DS2500's until AP advised I could use their own new pad which I am now running - In my use I have not been able to notice any difference other than a bit less brake dust.
AP tend to test their road brake kits for thousands of miles on their staff cars. They have a very long and well established reputation for excellence and do all they can to uphold it.
When I became aware of the Reg90 'illegality' I was of course very concerned and spoke to Pete Cullen (AP's Senior Engineer and who had fitted my BBK) specifically about it. He assured me that as the DS2500's were supplied with my AP kit and the whole kit was designed to work together as a whole, I would not have any problems.
So, I'm adding further confirmation to what you are saying, Lee :happy2:
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Thanks for your previous post Lee... so i suppose a quick rub with some wet and dry to remove the Ferodo markings and no one will be able to tell what they are. :happy2:
If it comes to that they can always send it off for material analysis and decide from there what brand / type of pad it is.
But yeah that's an idea Rich pre install :signLOL:
Hardly probable this will ever happen. :wink: I doubt someone will indentify the compound.
DS2500 is similar to stock. I'd also remove the markings.
Nevertheless I personally dislike DS2500. I prefer DS Performance and Endless MX72 over them.
And are there any regs for brake discs?
They just have to be similar in shape to stock discs. The quality may be crap.
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Wow, kind of a minefield, so for the thread starter (and me) to sum up -
ATE/Brembo discs
New Fuid
What pads..... That are legal (other than OE).
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Ferodo DS Performance are ECE R90 compliant and work well.
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Ferodo DS Performance are ECE R90 compliant and work well.
Looks like i have my setup then. :notworthy: