MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Modifications & Technical Area => Performance Modifications => Topic started by: chris s on August 30, 2012, 09:35:54 pm
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I have been considering getting my dsg remapped as i hear good things on th whole. But can anyone tell me if there is definitely an increase in torque ? I believe there are no real power gains tho
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There will be no extra torque with a DSG map. What there will be is a firmer and full delivery of what torque you have. The torque limiter is raised in the DSG box and the map also increases the clamping pressure on the clutch packs giving a combined result of more AVAILABLE torque. The DSG map is well worth it. :happy2:
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Can recommend it for anyone running stage 1 or above with DSG, had my car mapped stage 2 and DSG box was limiting torque to 293lb/ft, after R-Tech DSG remap and back to Jabbasport for remap tweak was making 342lb/ft torque (power stayed the same).
Well worth having it done, as hurdy says clamping pressure is increased and also gear changes speed up by around 25-30% :happy2:
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Even on the K03 DSG, Revo's DSG stage 1 delivers subtle but solid improvements. The whole gearbox and drive suddenly felt a lot smoother after the DSG was remapped.
Regular DSG oil servicing helps too.
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Even on the K03 DSG, Revo's DSG stage 1 delivers subtle but solid improvements. The whole gearbox and drive suddenly felt a lot smoother after the DSG was remapped.
Regular DSG oil servicing helps too.
VW say every 4 years for std oil change on DSG, altho being stage 2 I am probably going for DSG oil changes every 18-24 months (roughly 10-14k miles for me).
Forgot to add that as well as other changes I also had rpm limit increased from 6500rpm to 7000rpm, so now it revs cleanly through to 7krpm :evilgrin:
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Its weird to me that none of our ECU calibrations have had issues with DSG torque limiters. I think you need a DSG map for the higher shift points, faster shifts, etc. as others have said but I'm pretty sure you can accomplish all of the torque delivery on the ECU side.
I'm about to begin testing higher launch control rev limiters done on the ECU side as well.
and yeah, as others have said, removing that torque limiter won't actually increase the torque output, the extra torque is always there and in our case, with or without a DSG remap.
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Depends who you get the remap from.
Heres a shark performance stage 3 remap on my car before a dsg map
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fb150%2Fheavyd123%2FDYNO-1.gif&hash=7d16140fb19d86ea7a8e19599da4f3f6117d91e8)
heres after
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fb150%2Fheavyd123%2FBRAKEKIL.gif&hash=0c24d5ae1d8d945fe2725836d2fbd8409f427f52)
I thought it made for faster and smoother gear changes after the dsg remap was done
this was Revo vs superchips BEFORE the dsg remap
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fb150%2Fheavyd123%2F8d8d8de6-1.jpg&hash=e3add55fec93db69b8a95b0b84cc09f395209e28)
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Here is a MK5 DSG with our soon to be released K04 upgrade v2.0. OEM DSG
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fa8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ak-ash4%2F3405_380265755375954_1824900055_n.jpg&hash=53e399caa08e47ad7c2fb1c85f00a975e9c68960)
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Nice looking graph there keith :happy2:
What hardware was required with that upgrade then?
Must say, it looks like apr is winning the power battle by the looks of it :drinking:
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APR K04 v2.0 Remap (not released yet)
APR HPFP
APR Intercooler
ITG Intake
Milltek Quad Tip Full Exhaust
Shell Vpower
OEM DV reroute
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Not trying to cause a big dyno debate, but can I ask why the intake temps are so much higher that room temps on that graph Keith?
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Not trying to cause a big dyno debate, but can I ask why the intake temps are so much higher that room temps on that graph Keith?
Its IAT's measured from the OBD port as in actual engine IAT's as measured by the IAT sensor on the engine and not ambient air temps as measured by an ambient temp probe just hanging out in the shop.
Just look at engine power as listed on the graph instead of corrected power to remove IAT's from the equation if you prefer, making it 357BHP instead of 362BHP.
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Sorry, as someone pointed out on FB, it also has an APR Intercooler and OEM DV reroute in addition to the mod list I posted above. I edited the post to add it in.
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Sorry, as someone pointed out on FB, it also has an APR Intercooler and OEM DV reroute in addition to the mod list I posted above. I edited the post to add it in.
DV Reroute?
I assume this means that you have moved the location of the valve or routing of the (VW version of) vac pipes?
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Does modifying the DSG as discussed above reduce the life of the gearbox components significantly?
Also what about impact to engine mounts/transmission mounts and cv joint bearings etc
Thanks
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Does modifying the DSG as discussed above reduce the life of the gearbox components significantly?
Also what about impact to engine mounts/transmission mounts and cv joint bearings etc
Thanks
....Regarding remapping the DSG, I don't know for certain but I think that it could help the gearbox longevity. I say this because it definitely makes the dsg shifts etc much smoother. However, if you do lots of Launch Controls, regardless of the DSG being remapped or not, it would stress the gearbox more.
Regarding aftermarket engine mounts, they reduce a lot of engine movement and so the transmission is again smoother and delivers the power to the wheels better. I don't think that a DSG remap will adversely effect a car with OEM engine mounts. The DSG remap is subtle, not giving a big torque kick.
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Does modifying the DSG as discussed above reduce the life of the gearbox components significantly?
Also what about impact to engine mounts/transmission mounts and cv joint bearings etc
Thanks
Significantly no, but it will generate more heat which will wear all parts of the DSG more quickly but nothing to worry about. The DSG is designed and intended to last 100k miles or more and with a remap, depending on who made it I guess, you could be in trouble around 80k miles or more. Its also very complicated as in 1 in 1 million DSG's standard may fail below 100k miles and with a remap now 2 in 1 million may fail (not exact numbers but you get the idea of how it works). The other 999,998 may be just fine.
So, simple answer, no.
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Significantly no, but it will generate more heat which will wear all parts of the DSG more quickly but nothing to worry about. The DSG is designed and intended to last 100k miles or more and with a remap, depending on who made it I guess, you could be in trouble around 80k miles or more. Its also very complicated as in 1 in 1 million DSG's standard may fail below 100k miles and with a remap now 2 in 1 million may fail (not exact numbers but you get the idea of how it works). The other 999,998 may be just fine.
....I would have expected a German car manufacturer to have designed it to last a lot longer than 100k miles.
The DSG remap on my K03 car seems very subtle and so it's not easy to understand how a significant amount of extra heat is generated and how it would be detrimental.
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Significantly no, but it will generate more heat which will wear all parts of the DSG more quickly but nothing to worry about. The DSG is designed and intended to last 100k miles or more and with a remap, depending on who made it I guess, you could be in trouble around 80k miles or more. Its also very complicated as in 1 in 1 million DSG's standard may fail below 100k miles and with a remap now 2 in 1 million may fail (not exact numbers but you get the idea of how it works). The other 999,998 may be just fine.
....I would have expected a German car manufacturer to have designed it to last a lot longer than 100k miles.
The DSG remap on my K03 car seems very subtle and so it's not easy to understand how a significant amount of extra heat is generated and how it would be detrimental.
Its the sliding scale and number of failures. Most OEM's follow Six Sigma with every part they make or source or design. However, their primary concern is the warranty period so when the bean counters get involved in reducing costs, Six Sigma may be thrown out the window. From the engineers I know inside the VW Group, engines and components are designed to 150k miles and transmissions and components are designed to 100k miles considering a mixed use by the consumer. Testing procedures are secret and vary but all try to recreate how the average customer will use the car. Porsche goes a little bit further and so do Audi S and RS models where their testing procedures incorporate more spirited use of the vehicles.
All OEMs have an internal policy on the accepted number of failures at x number of miles or hours. Its all relative however to many variables. If you exceed torque ratings, etc. and drive it hard, often, your risk of failure greatly increases. If you exceed torque ratings but never use the torque, it may not fail any more quickly than a standard.
Remapping changes the shift points and the speed at which the clutches engage. Both of these increase the gear box temperatures. So do increases in torque. Shifting at 7200 rpm's instead of 6850 rpm's is going to generate more heat, no way around that. Slipping the clutches faster with a quicker engagement is going to generate more heat as well, no way around that.
For example, let's say VW/Borg Warner designed the DSG transmission to last 100k miles at an average gear box temp of 40 deg c. Remapping it may result in average temps of say 45 deg c depending on how you drive. The extra 5 deg c will reduce the life. How much? Don't know, nobody other than perhaps the OEM has tested it.
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That's a very helpful and informative reply, Keith :drinking:
In my own case I'm at 103k miles but only had the DSG remap since ~78k miles. My style of driving is spirited when conditions allow doing so safely but I use the gears and never rely on torque from lower revs. Also I shift gear before ~5,000 revs as there is less power up there on my Revo Stage 2 K03 GTI. I also use engine braking through shifting gears more than trailing the brakes. As I have been driving for nearly 50 years I guess I am old school in my driving habits.
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That's a very helpful and informative reply, Keith :drinking:
In my own case I'm at 103k miles but only had the DSG remap since ~78k miles. My style of driving is spirited when conditions allow doing so safely but I use the gears and never rely on torque from lower revs. Also I shift gear before ~5,000 revs as there is less power up there on my Revo Stage 2 K03 GTI. I also use engine braking through shifting gears more than trailing the brakes. As I have been driving for nearly 50 years I guess I am old school in my driving habits.
So that's why I nearly went up your Quads when pushing on, I had no warning !!! :laugh: :fighting:
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I also use engine braking through shifting gears more than trailing the brakes.
So that's why I nearly went up your Quads when pushing on, I had no warning !!! :laugh: :fighting:
.... :laugh:
Rather than rely on the brake lights of a vehicle in front you should look further up the road and anticipate. It's something that was drummed into me on the course I did. :happy2: