MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Performance Modifications => Modifications & Technical Area => Revo Zone => Topic started by: chopper on November 19, 2012, 11:11:35 pm
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anyone running stage 2+ Revo with a forge twintake on Edition 30. Im running this setup and am having issues with fault codes showing car running lead and pulling timing which was picked up on some recent logs. Have had to dial back sps settings until I can figure out whats up. Ive been told it could be an airflow issue leading to poor MAF readings. Anyone else had similar issues?
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What was the fault code?
This reminds me of another member who had the wrong rail pressure sensor from the factory and got lean running codes with revo stage 2+.
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Yep, GIAC had the same issues as you with trying to get their Stage 2+ development Golf R to make power. In the end they had to alter the twintake to get power. I don't know exactly what they did but I believe they at least had to change the filters for higher flow/bigger ones.
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^^^^
This surely must be an issue restricted to Stage 2+ on K04, as back-to-back dyno runs at JKM with my Forge Twintake gained ~15 bhp on my K03 GTI.
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,9988.0.html
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^^^^
This surely must be an issue restricted to Stage 2+ on K04, as back-to-back dyno runs at JKM with my Forge Twintake gained ~15 bhp on my K03 GTI.
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,9988.0.html
Yes it is Robin, the twintake is ok for K03 levels of power and flow, but apparently not for a K04 at stage 2+. It wouldn't surprise me if Forge had exactly the same intake (filters and all) for the K04 as the K03, but just the take-off pipe as a difference. Then I bet they didn't flow test it in development on a K04 at stage 2+!
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John. I'm 99.999% sure the the only change is the one you mention.
There is something about the twintake that I don't like.... I think it's a design with "design" prioritised.
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John. I'm 99.999% sure the the only change is the one you mention.
There is something about the twintake that I don't like.... I think it's a design with "design" prioritised.
....Then, being an ex professional designer, that must be why I like the Twintake so much! :grin:. It definitely is right for my car and we all know how much I hate the look of ITG's foam bits.
To be fair, I'm not sure that Stage 2+ software was available when Forge were testing pre-release, but the K04 Ed30 was.
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I have now revised my Forge Twintake Review under MINUS POINTS to reflect this information about the K04 Stage 2+ application :happy2:
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Im due to go back up for another logging session next week, but CEL has come back on already so im guessing the fault has returned even after REVO software update. Ill check the fault code again then. it was something to do with engine running lean. ? due to not enough air flow? and cutting back on fuel?
Im not keen to switch back to my old carbonio intake and standard engine cover cos it will lead to restriction at top end.
Anyone got any suggestions as to which filters I might be able to bolt on to replace the Forge ones but keep the pipes?
Or any ideas which filters GIAC used?
any help appreciated.... quite frustrating just not quite having perfection
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Im due to go back up for another logging session next week, but CEL has come back on already so im guessing the fault has returned even after REVO software update. Ill check the fault code again then. it was something to do with engine running lean. ? due to not enough air flow? and cutting back on fuel?
Im not keen to switch back to my old carbonio intake and standard engine cover cos it will lead to restriction at top end.
Anyone got any suggestions as to which filters I might be able to bolt on to replace the Forge ones but keep the pipes?
Or any ideas which filters GIAC used?
any help appreciated.... quite frustrating just not quite having perfection
....After I had my Forge Twintake fitted (on K03 Revo Stage 2), it started to cause occasional and random power hesitations when suddenly on hard throttle. JKM found this to be due to the increased air in the air-fuel mix and the problem has been solved with an APR hpfp. The APR pump also contributes to a stronger mid range power delivery.
So, which hpfp are you running?
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Ive put in the APR HPFP, and this has been in since before I went to Revo stage2+. twintake and twintercooler went on at same time as hpfp. running APR TBE as well.
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Ive put in the APR HPFP, and this has been in since before I went to Revo stage2+. twintake and twintercooler went on at same time as hpfp. running APR TBE as well.
....This doesn't help you now but often it's better to add performance mods one at a time so that, if there are any issues, they can potentially be more easily identified.
I'm sure someone will be able to help you with this sooner or later. What does your favourite workshop say about it?
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RR, I couldnt help myself with all the mods in one big splurge, plus it was cheaper to get them all done together.
My local REVO dealer has changed recently, and the new one seems to think its the TWintake as the main culprit. As i say i have to go back for more logs once updated map has been on for a while and got some good quality super unleaded through system. Trying to rule out poor quality super too. Normally i run BP 97RON - nothing higher available here. Sometimes use Topaz if caught out.
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Steve Jr has also said today that he has had K04 stage 2+ cars holding back at 6krpms with the Forge Twintake fitted, so you aren't alone Chopper.
I'll PM Thomas@GIAC and see if he can shed any light on the issue with the filters for you :happy2:
In the meantime it looks like GIAC have officially released their stage 2 software for the Golf R with the Forge Twintake as one of the listed mods - I wonder if it is now supplied with different filters?
http://www.golfmk6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48507
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Thanks Hurdy. Id read that article earlier today and sent Thomas an email. He did come back to me but only said GIAC had given Forge some data from their testing and that Forge were currently using it to make adjustments to the twintake hardware and would have an update soon. If you are able to get any more info than that I would much appreciate it.
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Thanks Hurdy. Id read that article earlier today and sent Thomas an email. He did come back to me but only said GIAC had given Forge some data from their testing and that Forge were currently using it to make adjustments to the twintake hardware and would have an update soon. If you are able to get any more info than that I would much appreciate it.
....Please keep me posted on what Forge are doing so I can update my Review for everyone's benefit. :drinking:
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I believe the twintake is now supplied with pipercross filters.
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I believe the twintake is now supplied with pipercross filters.
But are these new filters any better than the old version ones or been simply replaced due to wholesale costs?
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I see pipercross do a line of replacement conical filters of varying size, with one giving a bhp rating up to 380. it measures 80mm internal diameter and height by width 200*200mm. i will need to do some measuring to see if they will fit inside the forge canister, or may have to just take the cansiter out of the equation and just bolt pipercross straight on to forge pipe. ill have to find some way to steady the distal end though.
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I see pipercross do a line of replacement conical filters of varying size, with one giving a bhp rating up to 380. it measures 80mm internal diameter and height by width 200*200mm. i will need to do some measuring to see if they will fit inside the forge canister, or may have to just take the cansiter out of the equation and just bolt pipercross straight on to forge pipe. ill have to find some way to steady the distal end though.
....I'll see if I can talk to the right person at Forge tomorrow and report back. :happy2:
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Thanks RR
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I believe the twintake is now supplied with pipercross filters.
....Only on the Golf R Twintake according to who I spoke to at Forge this morning. I think Forge have found that their existing filters on the GTI Twintake perform better than Pipercross ones do on GTI K03 - Needs confirmation.
Having spoken with Forge this morning I have sent them a link to this thread and they have said they will look into the whole question and respond. It needs to go to their tech department guy.
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Thanks RR. Ill look forward to hearing what Forge have to say. There might be an alternative bolt in filter... maybe their recent work on the Wintake might also be suitable for the Twintake
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I have just double checked - the orientation of my Forge canisters is definitely correct.
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I have just double checked - the orientation of my Forge canisters is definitely correct.
Can you do me a favour please? And measure the diameter of each end of the filter? :drinking:
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I've just been and checked mine and its fitted as forge instructions but I think it's the opposite way to RR review.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.tapatalk.com%2Fd%2F12%2F11%2F23%2Fu7adu8a2.jpg&hash=48f3ff58fbaada401f23fd4a25a99c618238e996)
^^^As you can see this has been drawing the air from outside^^^
^^^^ Sorry but that's the wrong way round (but is as Forge's original instructions before they were corrected).
NOTE: According to Forge, you should keep them that way around (unless replaced) so that no missed debris after cleaning can be placed on the turbo side. Apparently there is no disadvantage in performance.
I have new filters from Forge and they are now fitted the correct way around (my originals weren't - I insisted on following Forge's original instructions sheet and not JKM Jim's thinking) - My dyno plots indicate no difference in performance although the filters were not tested back-to-back on the same day.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FMods%2FTWINtake%2FFilterCan_inlet.jpg&hash=f0bdb99a6b054b8891d5aa3fcbae791e8993c8a3)
^ The side taking air to the turbo.
In other words, the filter cones (concealed inside the canisters) should be the same way around as other cone filters are usually fitted.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FMods%2FTWINtake%2FFilterOrientation.jpg&hash=9dcfb802b02468c3c19c9c22609950363be98cd3)
It's written and fully illustrated in my review.
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surely if the golf r has same engine as my ed30 and the cupra r, why would it need different (pipercross) filters? are forge trying to pull a fly one here? have they realised the current standard filters arent up to scratch?
can we get hold of the golf R filters?
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They all tune the same so if its not up to the job for one then how is it for the rest?
The question here is whether the Twintake is up to the job for Revo Stage 2+ on a K04 turbo.
Let's wait and see what Forge have to say.
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Following on from this, today I received a reply from Forge (their technical guy) as follows:
"Hi Robin
I have done some tests on my golf mk5 GTi this has a big turbo conversion currently at around 400 BHP with the twintake and I have found that it perfectly flows enough G/S to produce 370 BHP.
After this I would recommend larger pipework and an open cone filter that has enough flow capability.
As you know we tried many different designs on the K03 / K04 cars and the twintake worked better than the open cone and any other design we tried.
But it seems that anything 370+ BHP the twintake will not flow enough."
So I hope this answers some of the questions raised in this thread :happy2:
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Robin... What colour is the forge twintake? Is it red or black?? I'm concerned about its visibility!
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Robin... What colour is the forge twintake? Is it red or black?? I'm concerned about its visibility!
....(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FDetailing%2FStickers%2Fwavefinger.gif&hash=c345ad848f8707e75487bd5fc7e0be3e0510b14d)
Isn't it time you went to bed!?
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:laugh:
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Thanks RR. I still believe the Twintake struggles a little even below 370bhp. Ive found an old large diameter K&N cone filter at home, so Im going to try and replace one canister with it at the weekend and see what happens. surely cold air intake from one canister and intake from the K&N cone should work.
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Thanks RR. I still believe the Twintake struggles a little even below 370bhp. Ive found an old large diameter K&N cone filter at home, so Im going to try and replace one canister with it at the weekend and see what happens. surely cold air intake from one canister and intake from the K&N cone should work.
....It'll be interesting to hear what you find :happy2:
All of this goes towards proving that the more you push the performance envelope, the more that stresses are introduced, and that can also include on aftermarket products.
Obviously I am happy with and have no issues to date due to my Twintake on my ~270 bhp K03 Revo Stage 2 GTI. The power balance suits my practical needs fine.
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pulled off the silicone pipe from engine side one of the canisters today (from behine light) and found loads of dust in the bend. Clearly the unoiled filter isnt up to scratch in catching all the dust. maybe the MAF is screwed now. that might explain why the low values 180-210 g/s on recent logs. ....
trying to fit an oiled K&N conical filter in place of one the canisters is proving tricky, just due to its size , and the other canister in the way. will have to have a rethink this one....
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pulled off the silicone pipe from engine side one of the canisters today (from behine light) and found loads of dust in the bend. Clearly the unoiled filter isnt up to scratch in catching all the dust. maybe the MAF is screwed now. that might explain why the low values 180-210 g/s on recent logs. ....
trying to fit an oiled K&N conical filter in place of one the canisters is proving tricky, just due to its size , and the other canister in the way. will have to have a rethink this one....
....Just a thought (without reading the whole thread again): Did you buy your Twintake new or previously used?
If previously used, were the filters fitted the other way around from currently?
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got twintake brand new... fitted canisters right way round. never changed the orientation.
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Interesting read guys looking at a intake for my ed30 and always loved the design style of the twintake but knowing its flow rate isn't that great maybe it's not the best choice.
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Interesting read guys looking at a intake for my ed30 and always loved the design style of the twintake but knowing its flow rate isn't that great maybe it's not the best choice.
....I'm not setting out to defend any claimed "great flow rate" of the Twintake but I am both surprised and curious about you saying that.
Various independent (users) rolling-road and logging data do suggest or indicate that the ITG delivers more bhp but your comment suggests that the Twintake's flow rate is actually poor.
Can you expand on this, please? :popcornsoda:
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Interesting read guys looking at a intake for my ed30 and always loved the design style of the twintake but knowing its flow rate isn't that great maybe it's not the best choice.
....I'm not setting out to defend any claimed "great flow rate" of the Twintake but I am both surprised and curious about you saying that.
Various independent (users) rolling-road and logging data do suggest or indicate that the ITG delivers more bhp but your comment suggests that the Twintake's flow rate is actually poor.
Can you expand on this, please? :popcornsoda:
sorry yes poor if your trying to achieve over 370 plus bhp is what im referring too.
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Interesting read guys looking at a intake for my ed30 and always loved the design style of the twintake but knowing its flow rate isn't that great maybe it's not the best choice.
....I'm not setting out to defend any claimed "great flow rate" of the Twintake but I am both surprised and curious about you saying that.
Various independent (users) rolling-road and logging data do suggest or indicate that the ITG delivers more bhp but your comment suggests that the Twintake's flow rate is actually poor.
Can you expand on this, please? :popcornsoda:
sorry yes poor if your trying to achieve over 370 plus bhp is what im referring too.
....With an aim of as much as 370 plus you must be talking about a K04, not K03, car application.
IIRC, Forge themselves have said that Twintake gains are less pro rata on K04's with big power. Thanks for expanding :happy2: