MK5 Golf GTI

All Things Mk5 => Modifications & Technical Area => Track Day Technical => Topic started by: Kregiel on January 19, 2013, 01:51:38 pm

Title: Track day in wet and cold! DAMAGE PICS!
Post by: Kregiel on January 19, 2013, 01:51:38 pm
Hi Guys,

Have track day booked for tomorrow here in Ireland and it looks like it will be wet and around 5 degrees. Have new Good Year assymetrics fitted last week so now they have 500 km on them.

I know cars with semi slicks could be a potential danger in the wet.

Anything else in particular I should be watching out for?

Cheers
Paul
Title: Re: Track day in wet and cold!
Post by: tony_danza on January 19, 2013, 02:02:43 pm
Not really, do a few laps at 50% and build slowly, the rears will take a long time to get warm so don't get caught out with lift off oversteer. You may also find there's more grip off line, where there isn't as much rubber on the track.

My very first was a Donnington with snow on the ground  :happy2:
Title: Re: Track day in wet and cold!
Post by: Tfsi_Mike on January 19, 2013, 03:37:22 pm

Mike has a fair bit of trackday experience & a good person to take advice from.

I would be apprehensive too in poor weather but it's really good driving experience  :driver:
Title: Re: Track day in wet and cold!
Post by: RedRobin on January 19, 2013, 03:43:31 pm
.
I've done both Nurburgring and Spa in the wet on Goodyear Asymmetrics (1's) and they were very good - What I had to watch out for most (at Spa) was spinning cars which were on slicks!.

(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FNurburgring2009%2FRR_wet.jpg&hash=573fad9413022878d6f9b08ae74a46a30c6f3a54)

Doing a trackday in the wet is a great way to better learn the circuit because you drive that much slower and take in much more information. It can be very satisfying.
Title: Re: Track day in wet and cold!
Post by: rex on January 19, 2013, 03:44:29 pm
Great advice from tony_danza!  :notworthy:

Kregiel
you have very good tires for those conditions! Out of curiosity... Asymmetric 1 ore 2?
Last year, during my nurburgring trip, I experienced similar conditions but I had a rental car (unknown for me) and semislicks, so the first laps (till the tires and weather got warmer were quite "interesting"). So, yes, semislicks might be all over the place...

Title: Re: Track day in wet and cold!
Post by: Kregiel on January 19, 2013, 03:56:31 pm
Cheers guys! Can't wait now! I will report back how it went.

Rex I have assymetrics 2! Loving them.... Checking on goodyear web site I could not find assymetric 1. It could be ass2 predecessors


Paul
Title: Re: Track day in wet and cold!
Post by: RedRobin on January 19, 2013, 04:07:35 pm

Cheers guys! Can't wait now! I will report back how it wenr.

Rex I have assymetrics 2! Loving them.... Checking on goodyear web site I could not find assymetric 1. It could be ass2 predecessors

Paul

....Yes, the Asymm 2's have superceded the earlier Asymm 1's.
Title: Re: Track day in wet and cold!
Post by: rex on January 19, 2013, 06:38:51 pm
Asymm 1 are far better for performance than Asymm 2.
Asymm 2 are far better for comfort than Asymm 1.
It appears that Goodyear took Michelins example with PS 2 and PS 3 (better for street use than for performance). Too bad Asymm 1 are no longer available...  :sad1:
Title: Re: Track day in wet and cold!
Post by: RedRobin on January 19, 2013, 07:27:58 pm

Asymm 1 are far better for performance than Asymm 2.
Asymm 2 are far better for comfort than Asymm 1.


....Well I never found Asymm 1's lacked any comfort. And so far, Asymm 2's are every bit as good as Asymm 1's in the wet. I haven't done a trackday on Asymm 2's though.
Title: Re: Track day in wet and cold!
Post by: rex on January 19, 2013, 10:07:45 pm
The steering response is much worse on the Asymm 2 because of the side wall which is much more elastic. I had the same ride comfort on Asymm 1 as I have with semislicks! Asymm 2 is much smother.... Thus turn in is worse in Asymm 2 and I feel that the car is slower around bends and much more imprecise.
Maybe the behavior is different on our cars because I had 17 inch Asymm 1 and 2 and most of you use 18 inch tires...
Title: Re: Track day in wet and cold!
Post by: Hedge on January 19, 2013, 10:09:54 pm
It appears that Goodyear took Michelins example with PS 2 and PS 3 (better for street use than for performance). Too bad Asymm 1 are no longer available...  :sad1:

PS3's were a replacement for Pilot Exaltos. PS2's have been replaced by PSS's.
Title: Re: Track day in wet and cold!
Post by: rex on January 19, 2013, 10:20:39 pm
Exactly my point! PS3 follow PS2 by name, but were not meant to be replacements...
I think this is the case with Asymm 1 and Asymm 2....
Title: Re: Track day in wet and cold!
Post by: DaveD on January 20, 2013, 12:04:06 am
Let us know how the track day goes.

I'm in Ireland too, and in the market for a GTi. Regular track day goer at Mondello too so will be looking forward to getting the GTi out.
Title: Re: Track day in wet and cold!
Post by: Kregiel on January 21, 2013, 01:12:16 pm
Hi Guys,

SOme good news and bad news unfortunately from my track day.

Good news first
It was a brill day at Mondello with only 10 cars signed up for the day which meant each driver had like a private track day. It was 5 degrees cold but dry so grip was there. I was really happy with the car and the new assymetrics tires gripped extremely well. In total I did like 120 km and really felt confident with the car and very happy with the way it handled. I have polar fis in my car and once oil temp reached 105 degrees which took around 8 laps which is 20ish minute driving I took a break and kept the car running at idle etc and I repeated this procedure throughtout the day.

Bad news now
When the track day was drawing to an end around 2 pm (it was run from 11 to 15) once I was driving and breaking before a corner and having reduced to 3 rd gear I heard a metal noise from the engine then a stop sign appeared on the dash and car stopped. The oil got spilled and as it was 105 degrees it started to burn beneath the car. It was a small flame like 10 cm in height so no damage to the car but still the service guys used 4 tanks of extinguisher to cool down those oil drip.
I am heart broken as car is not driveable and it looks like a serious thing. The car will be tested by my mechanic tomorrow and will know much more what is the story. I modded my car metociously and the idea was a reliable daily car with 5-6 track days a year. It is BWA engine with k04 and plenty of supporting mods. If it turns out to be engine internals which is too early to say now I will potentianlly be better off going for s3 engine straight away as it's the strongest of gti,ed30 etc as we all know here. My car was running 330 bhp and common consensus here is it's safe to do so on BWA engine. This theory might be challenged now but will know better tomorrow.

I will report back and hope guys here will help me make the best decision based on the facts.

Cheers
Paul :sad1:
Title: Re: Track day in wet and cold! HEART BROKEN!
Post by: RedRobin on January 21, 2013, 01:21:13 pm
^^^^
I feel gutted for you, Paul. But glad you weren't hurt, or set alight!

Good job this didn't happen to you at Nurburgring on a touristfahrting day though!

I'm sure you'll keep us posted.
Title: Re: Track day in wet and cold! HEART BROKEN!
Post by: rex on January 21, 2013, 01:25:18 pm
 :surprised: Those are some bad news...
From my limited experience on tracks (only +/- 1500 miles) I learned that the FIRST thing we must do to prepare our cars for track use is to make sure they have proper cooling and oil lubrication. Of course this is concerning performance... The absolute first thing should be some safety mods (helmet, cage, etc)...
Than comes the brakes, etc...
Title: Re: Track day in wet and cold! HEART BROKEN!
Post by: Kregiel on January 21, 2013, 01:51:21 pm
Thanks guys for good words!

I totally agree with you Rex! I have forge IC fitted and thought have all the boxes ticked!

Will report back on what happened

Paul
Title: Re: Track day in wet and cold! HEART BROKEN!
Post by: fab5freddy on January 21, 2013, 02:00:25 pm
Hey Paul,

Really sorry to hear this buddy  :sad1:

Fingers crossed it's not as serious as it seems
Title: Re: Track day in wet and cold! HEART BROKEN!
Post by: Kiwi on February 05, 2013, 12:33:48 pm

Any news on what the outcome was on the engine??

Title: Re: Track day in wet and cold! HEART BROKEN!
Post by: the bruce on February 05, 2013, 06:27:17 pm
Sad to read this bad news, Paul !!  :sad1:

My car was running 330 bhp and common consensus here is it's safe to do so on BWA engine.
This theory might be challenged now but will know better tomorrow.

Pardon my honesty, but I have to disagree on this point.

A K04 equipped BWA isn't able to deal with 330 BHP on track.
That's why VW have spend the GTI ED30 and Pirelli the S3 engine with just 230 BHP.

That's the bitter truth.
Title: Re: Track day in wet and cold! HEART BROKEN!
Post by: Kregiel on February 05, 2013, 08:36:55 pm

Any news on what the outcome was on the engine??



For now I know it was a lubrication issue. Once I get new engine shortly a full analysis will be done on the old one and I will report back!

Paul
Title: Re: Track day in wet and cold! HEART BROKEN!
Post by: Kregiel on February 05, 2013, 08:39:02 pm

Pardon my honesty, but I have to disagree on this point.

A K04 equipped BWA isn't able to deal with 330 BHP on track.
That's why VW have spend the GTI ED30 and Pirelli the S3 engine with just 230 BHP.

That the bitter truth.

you might be right but looking at number of people running this set up it seems to be reliable

Paul
Title: Re: Track day in wet and cold! HEART BROKEN!
Post by: fuscobal on February 07, 2013, 11:55:55 am
Kreigel, sorry for what happened to you. We're brothers in arms since something similar happened to me on my last track day but for me it was a coolant issue. I also have S3 IC + Forge twintercooler but these don't help with oil/coolant wich is why I am thinking of adding the additional OEM hot climate water radiator and maybe an oil cooler. However, if you only had 105deg, that's not much at all (good oil can reach 150deg with no problems) so your oil pump might have failed. Opened the engine yet ?
Title: Re: Track day in wet and cold! HEART BROKEN!
Post by: the bruce on February 07, 2013, 05:57:34 pm
I have to admit I had 113° C peak oil temp several times (fully stock BWA engine).
Title: Re: Track day in wet and cold! HEART BROKEN!
Post by: the bruce on February 07, 2013, 11:35:40 pm
If this helps?

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5759744-INTEGRATED-ENGINEERING-s-2.0T-FSI-product-and-new-release-thread./page2
Title: Re: Track day in wet and cold! HEART BROKEN!
Post by: Kregiel on February 08, 2013, 07:59:37 pm
Kreigel, sorry for what happened to you. We're brothers in arms since something similar happened to me on my last track day but for me it was a coolant issue. I also have S3 IC + Forge twintercooler but these don't help with oil/coolant wich is why I am thinking of adding the additional OEM hot climate water radiator and maybe an oil cooler. However, if you only had 105deg, that's not much at all (good oil can reach 150deg with no problems) so your oil pump might have failed. Opened the engine yet ?

Got Audi S3 engine today so my mechanic will now investigate what happened to the engine. He offered to post on the forum which would be beneficial to all! The company where I bought the engine was saying that it came from Golf R but since both units are the same can't complain. By running the vin it turns out that the engine comes from jan 2012 manufactured S3 and this is what the seller was claiming. It;s complete engine with turbo, injectors etc so my Golf R injectors and K04 turbo will be for sale shortly.

Tried to contact Nick at R tech for the map but he is hard to reach to no surprise looking at number of positive feedback here! Once left a mail and got a message back that remap can be done but they would need the ecu returning to full on factory settings,before they can start work. That I found a bit confusing as surely and somebody please correct by disconnecting battery the original map can be got. If not I would assume they would have a gti original map at hand? I don;t want to be going to VW dealer here to get one??
 

Paul
Title: Re: Track day in wet and cold! Damage pics!
Post by: Kregiel on March 11, 2013, 07:35:52 pm
Hi Guys,

Turned out that conrod snapped causing damage to the engine. Some pics below.

(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fq481%2FKregiel%2FBWAsnappedrod3_zps44832b29.jpg&hash=db9060ddc58bc56314caa607ac72917c0ecb02ab)

(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fq481%2FKregiel%2FBWAsnappedrod1_zps5d056355.jpg&hash=7ddd13de1bed6de5bcdff5a3500a8ae38cc885c6)

(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fq481%2FKregiel%2FBWAsnappedrod2_zps5c71f239.jpg&hash=7efbd9187aed2c931357f811c30f1e0f5d020ac5)

Paul
Title: Re: Track day in wet and cold! DAMAGE PICS!
Post by: the bruce on March 11, 2013, 08:12:43 pm
Thanks for clearing up the cause, Paul.
Title: Re: Track day in wet and cold! DAMAGE PICS!
Post by: fuscobal on March 13, 2013, 11:50:19 pm
That's pretty rare...maybe a bad software wich too much torque down low ?
Title: Re: Track day in wet and cold! DAMAGE PICS!
Post by: Kregiel on March 14, 2013, 06:56:23 pm
That's pretty rare...maybe a bad software wich too much torque down low ?

exactly! my mechanic never saw this before! He suspects that it might be factory defect and at big strain it just snapped

Bad map is usually melted engine parts

Paul