MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: Kregiel on January 22, 2013, 03:20:28 pm
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Hi Guys,
As some of you know my car broke down at track days I did last weekend....
What happened is and bear with me here as I am not technical, the piston 3 got broken and destroyed the bottom end of the engine. I need a new engine is the short conclusion.
My car was stock gti (BWA) engine with k04 and around 330 bhp. It looks like it is too much on this engine without amending internals based on my experience here especially at track days when pushing hard.
Now my plan is to have car mapped but aim at safe limit for an engine as it is my daily driver with occasional track day I was thinking of either BHZ (S3) engine or CDLA (golf R). I found 2012 golf r engine with only 2000 miles on it and tempted for this one.
However before I make up my mind I want to know your opinions. How do the above engines differ if at all?? Is R stronger due to being newer and 270bhp stock??
Let me know your thoughts as driving mazda 2 as a replacement car can't be could for my health!
Thanks
Paul
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No chances of building with stronger internals? or did it score the bores, blow the block?
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no chance unfortunately as the engine is in bits... Also I wouldn't want to run the same power on this set up with standard internals
Paul
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Someone like Statller have got plenty of experience in engine transplants.
In ignorance I imagine that the Golf R engine would be slightly later and suit your existing Golf body better. BUT, check that the 'R' ECU is early enough to be remapped if desired. Hurdy knows more but I think that the later ones are difficult to crack/remap.
I have to say that I'm not surprised that your engine went eventually with 330 bhp on what was a stock K03 GTI engine. It's called pushing the envelope.
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I don't think he will be using a new Tricore ECU Robin. I'm pretty sure he will keep his existing one. :confused:
Is someone doing the work for you? If so I would ask them what they are comfortable with.
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Just wanted to add, Paul, that as one door closes, another door opens - So good times ahead, buddy :happy2:
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All fair points guys! keep them coming...
My local mechanic well respected here whom I trust will be doing the engine swap. He builds engines himself so from that point of view I am happy.
I will need somebody to put the map on the car. Would the car need to be towed to a garage or could be driven slowly? With the new set up I will go with one of the big tuning companies. Pretty sure wrong map could have caused all that havoc.
Thanks
Paul
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All fair points guys! keep them coming...
My local mechanic well respected here whom I trust will be doing the engine swap. He builds engines himself so from that point of view I am happy.
I will need somebody to put the map on the car. Would the car need to be towed to a garage or could be driven slowly? With the new set up I will go with one of the big tuning companies. Pretty sure wrong map could have caused all that havoc.
Thanks
Paul
Do you remember the "Sammy" episode?! Get it towed
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Do you remember the "Sammy" episode?! Get it towed
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of course I remember Sammy! But he was giving the car beans! I specifically said take it very easy..... I might consider to meet one of respected tuners we have here so it's an important point for me
Paul
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I would still get it towed and avoid driving it at all costs :grin:
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Just on a side note:-
If your running an aftermarket HPFP, then you should check the follower straight after every track day.
APR HPFP causes extreme wear to the follower
Just bear that in mind, when your rebuilding
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Just on a side note:-
If your running an aftermarket HPFP, then you should check the follower straight after every track day.
APR HPFP causes extreme wear to the follower
Just bear that in mind, when your rebuilding
....Sensible advice to check the cam follower regularly but is "extreme wear" correct? Reports suggest that "extra wear" would be a more appropriate description.
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my thoughts Robin.
Had uprated pump for 10k miles and two weeks ago when I got oil changed my mechanic checked cam follower and it was in great shape.
Paul
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Send the ECU off to your chosen tuner before the engine is done, tell them which level of tune you want (stage1, 2 or 2+), which engine block it is and which gearbox you are having fitted to it (DSG or manual). They will then be able to map the ECU out of the car whilst the engine is being swapped and then you can drive off when it's done without having to worry about driving with the wrong map. :happy2:
I'd go for the Golf R block. It is basically the same as the S3/Cupra/ED30/ED35, but you will have a few different sensors/additional sensors IIRC to cope with(like the rad thermostat is set different), but nothing major. :smiley:
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I'm sure the S3 has a CDL block?? :confused:
A guy on here with a cupra has strengthened the internals on his BWA and running 400bhp+
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Guys,
Just a thought is there a way to tell by the damage to the engine if the map was a root cause? What damage could be caused by faulty map?
Paul
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i don't know the precise answer to your question but surely your engine bust will be a result of a combination of factors. The engine will have had weaknesses which the remap may have highlit, amplified, and boom!
You won't get anywhere trying to prove to any tuner that their remap CAUSED your expensive breakage and it'll cost you more in both time and expense in pursuing such a case < IF that's what you had in mind when asking the question.
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^^I wouldn't have thought so.
If the map overboosted causing a torque spike at low rpm then I would have expected bent rods.
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no chance unfortunately as the engine is in bits... Also I wouldn't want to run the same power on this set up with standard internals
Paul
I think Dom was saying upgraded internals.
If it was me, will be in the future, I would build the ED30/S3/Cupra engine with H-Beam Rods, Loba (Mahle) Pistons, Upgraded bearings, Gas flowed head, Valves, Cam everything I could.
I believe the crank is good for 500bhp? Which surprised me TBH but with a Loba LO4XX bolted on as well you could safely have say, 350bhp for a daily then turn the whick up for track use.
I am in the fortunate position of being able to do most of the work myself but really you would want in the very least H-Beam rods and upgraded bearings.
Good luck it should be immense.
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I would suggest looking at your mapping . Was it live mapped or just a download ? I've been running a axx with 340 hp for 2 and a half years . But yes rods and pistons would be a safe bet
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thanks guys!
The map was custom made using RR and data logging and guy who did it is well respected.
I am just trying to find the root cause and not looking to blame anybody. What's done is done now so the only thing is to take conclusions and use those in the future.
I did one track day back in summer and was very happy. My car was dynoed at 328 bhp in summer. Now last weekend it was 4-5 degrees so the engine would have bigger power afaik and perhaps this pushed it over the edge? Like said above a multiple factors interacting at the same time.
If I decide to go for R engine I wouldn't be pushing it anything above 350ish bhp as needs to have it reliable and durable. I think it's safe to say that 328 bhp on stock 200 bhp GTI engine is much more pushing than 350 bhp on 270 bhp stock R engine which has much stronger internals.
Thanks
Paul
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If its a single piston which started this, it might be a case of broken injector leading to lean condition before breaking everything (just example..)? It would be interesting to find out what really caused the failure, since these tend to hold up k04 power just fine and I really dont believe in multiple things going.. Its usually only a one single failure which may take out the engine after happening.
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A guy on here with a cupra has strengthened the internals on his BWA and running 400bhp+
Dan? I don't think it's been all plain sailing on his path to big power. :smiley:
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Do you have any idea what charge temps and egts you were getting when dyno'd ? Do you have any photos of the piston ? Was the rod still on the crank ?
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A guy on here with a cupra has strengthened the internals on his BWA and running 400bhp+
Dan? I don't think it's been all plain sailing on his path to big power. :smiley:
Yeah that's him. Still wasn't running right on the dyno when I saw it. Surely his problems were software / bolt on issues (coilpacks possibly), rather than the strengthened internals?
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You don't have to be a brain surgeon to realise that pushing really big power on any engine which didn't have that power ex-factory is going to run far higher risks of breakages etc.
I'm not saying it shouldn't be done and I enjoy seeing such cars as much as any other true petrol head, but you need deep pockets full of money!
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I think after Dan last came to JKM his car returned to the land of broken cars in Milton Keynes where they determined he had bent a rod.
This was on uprated rods as well. :surprised:
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If you made a list of really big power cars on this forum, the percentage of them that have had fairly serious breakages (excluding the infamous Sammy!) would be very high indeed.
I was once told by a very experienced guy in motorsport (including F1) that Volkswagens are unofficially built to withstand an approximate headroom percentage of 40%. So that means that a stock 200bhp K03 car can take about 280bhp before you start risking failures. That's why I stick to around 270bhp and only Stage 2.
Unless you are a full-time employed member of Volkswagen's design development team you are just guessing and doing trial and error even if your guesswork is reasonably well educated.
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Yes but stock cars break Robin. :confused:
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I have never had a problem with mine running at 330whp / 370bhp on stock k03 internals. I dont think rab or stu have either. Not that i would advise doing it unless you are willing to take blame for your own engine should anything go wrong. :laugh:
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Yes but stock cars break Robin. :confused:
....Yes, of course. I was making the point that the percentage of RISKS are far higher with big power modded cars. It stands to reason as all the components are subjected to more stress and a factory designed balance is potentailly upset.
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I have never had a problem with mine running at 330whp / 370bhp on stock k03 internals. I dont think rab or stu have either. Not that i would advise doing it unless you are willing to take blame for your own engine should anything go wrong. :laugh:
....Shall we start a list of names and calculate what the PERCENTAGE of failures is?
Please take note: I am only saying that the RISKS are higher. Surely that's not debateable. And by your self blame comment you are I think agreeing with me. :smiley:
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I have never had a problem with mine running at 330whp / 370bhp on stock k03 internals. I dont think rab or stu have either. Not that i would advise doing it unless you are willing to take blame for your own engine should anything go wrong. :laugh:
....Shall we start a list of names and calculate what the PERCENTAGE of failures is?
Please take note: I am only saying that the RISKS are higher. Surely that's not debateable. And by your self blame comment you are I think agreeing with me. :smiley:
Yes i do agree with you.
The probability that my engine will fail is high but for me thats a risk i am aware of. (build it, break it, upgrade it)
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Guys,
It all comes down to how you use the car as well. You can have highly tuned car which never sees a track and it will be very reliable. On a public road you can give it beans for 10 seconds when accelerating hard for example but then you upshift and the cooling and getting to normal process starts so no issue.
On track it's totally different story as you give it beans all the time.... There are no 2 two identical situations that's why so hard to make any judgement which will withstand. Even stock GTI when given beans on track will be more prone to failure tnan 330 bhp GTI on stock internals driven as a daily. Some people say they run big power for 100k miles but the question is how many miles on a track if at all?
Some more news from my mechanic. Now the failure to my engine was not due to weak internals but lack of lubrication and/or over rev. I can safely rule out over rev as never dropped gear or accelerated to be post 6k territory. It could be in a corner when oil moves in a oil sump and there is no oil for the pump to deliver etc. Funny enough I changed oil just 2 weeks before the track day so no way the level was too low etc. I also have oil level on POlar FIS display and it's always monitored closely.
Engine will be dismantled and parts inspected to figure out exactly what happened but this is how it stands at the moment.
Despite those facts above I will go with R /S3 engine and not standard gti one as there is not much of a difference in the price and I will sleep better as well.
Anybody experienced the lubrication issue?
Thanks guys and I will keep everybody posted
Paul
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Lube issues, eh - Ouch!!
So true about the road and track comparisons :happy2:
I would be inclined to do the same and want a R/S3 engine if in the same circumstances. Though I would be investigating a RS3/TTRS engine :evilgrin:
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Quite a lot of track cars run baffled sumps to help prevent oil surge.
e.g. If you have a long left-hander the oil will more to the right-hand side of the sump and may potentially lead to starvation and BOOM!
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i would be doing the same thing :happy2:
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Quite a lot of track cars run baffled sumps to help prevent oil surge.
e.g. If you have a long left-hander the oil will more to the right-hand side of the sump and may potentially lead to starvation and BOOM!
These are the baffled sumps I make for the 1.8T engine:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Ffordkaracing%2FAKS_Tuning%2F_MG_3116.jpg&hash=1014dc4694a880b296b56fe979fd5172ee36f8d9)
Cant do them for the TFSi's though. No room, but I can convert them to the 1.8T oil pump.
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Guys,
Who is running a baffled sump here? Is it a common issue on the VAG platform or I was very unlucky here?
Thanks
Paul
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I am pretty sure a baffled sump is not required on this platform, VW will have done extensive testing and depending on the pick-up and sump design will have come up with some figures ie amount of G forces and for how long. A few Lotus boys have them on their Toyota engines, indeed i did on my last one but there were very few cases of oil starvation engine failures and the little Lotus can pull more G than most MK5's. The Toyota engines in them were designed for cars that dont go round bends fast but still dont really suffer from this. All the ones i have heard or read about have not been on track but long bends such as motorway slip roads and traveling at silly speeds on them. Also you would have heard and seen aftermarket sumps all over the place.
How many pick up pipes get clogged up though. :happy2:
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Decided to go for R powerplant! I ruled RS3 5 pot engine due to amount of work involved to make it work. Not an easy swap like with the R.
After the engine gets dismantled I will report back on actual cause of the failure. This might help somebody in the future. At the moment looking at engine condition looks like oil starve which seems very uncommon by what others say
Thanks for all support and help
Paul
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^^^^
We look forward to hearing about your progress with your new R powerplant :happy2:
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Decided to go for R powerplant! I ruled RS3 5 pot engine due to amount of work involved to make it work. Not an easy swap like with the R.
After the engine gets dismantled I will report back on actual cause of the failure. This might help somebody in the future. At the moment looking at engine condition looks like oil starve which seems very uncommon by what others say
Thanks for all support and help
Paul
an S3 engine is a CDL lump too. Surely this will be cheaper than a newer R engine yet just as strong?? Why not save yourself some £'s?? :confused:
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an S3 engine is a CDL lump too. Surely this will be cheaper than a newer R engine yet just as strong?? Why not save yourself some £'s?? :confused:
One of the criteria for me is the mileage on the engine as this engine swap is also good opportunity to get an engine with less miles than mine. I don't mind either be it S3 or R engine. There would be little price difference between those two just by calling different companies. I found an engine from 2012 car with 2k miles on it only and it just happened to be R car...
Otherwise I don't mind either of the above.
Paul
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Interested to see what the cause of the failure is.
I would be checking the oil pickup/strainer if not already checked.
I have now seen the oil pickup problem on more than a few cars and not with just high mileage cars too :confused:
Most of these problems I've seen have occurred not long after an oil change aswell.
Pics on RtechNicks thread
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,36395.0.html (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,36395.0.html)
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Surely something could have just got hot on the track day, and something let go, maybe something had an inherit problem from the factory, that just made itself known after a hard sesh!?
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good find that rubber toe! :happy2:
My car was at 60k miles when this happened. Also I bought the car used so it's always a mystery how the car was looked after
Thanks
Paul
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HI Guys,
I contacted www.idealengines.co.uk and they seem like a honest company to deal with. They gave me a quote on the engine bu now they want surcharge of 200 quid refundable once I send them my old engine (they will pick up postage cost). Is it a normal practice / legal protocol that they have the old engine?.
They also agreed to paypal payment.
Let me know if anybody had any experience with them
Thanks
Paul
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Quite a lot of track cars run baffled sumps to help prevent oil surge.
e.g. If you have a long left-hander the oil will more to the right-hand side of the sump and may potentially lead to starvation and BOOM!
These are the baffled sumps I make for the 1.8T engine:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Ffordkaracing%2FAKS_Tuning%2F_MG_3116.jpg&hash=1014dc4694a880b296b56fe979fd5172ee36f8d9)
Cant do them for the TFSi's though. No room, but I can convert them to the 1.8T oil pump.
I can vouch for this great piece of kit as I have one on my track mini. IHMO - Anyone who takes their car onto a track on a regular basis needs to think about a baffled or dry sump setup. Otherwise, its a gamble on the engine going pop.