MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: Peskarik on July 13, 2009, 01:51:34 pm
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I already asked llyun that question, but there must be others here who have or have had VF or VWR engine mounts installed.
I've also read RedRobins review of VWR lower mount.
VF mounts are of higher interest to me, though.
I have ECS dog bone insert installed now.
I wonder how much vibration goes into cabin when one changes only the lower mount (VF dog bone and dog bone insert) and when one changes all three mounts to something more sturdy (VF mounts, VWR fast road mounts).
I do not mind a little extra noise inside, but to a point...
Would be so great to hear from those who has experience with aftermarket engine mounts!!!
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I've got the VF lower/dogbone.
IMO you only need this one, no wheel hop and much improved traction - I dare say you'd benefit from all 3 with more power, but I haven't got it.
No noise & no vibration other than a little on take up when you're using the auto to crawl in traffic off the gas... this goes after it has bedded in though.
Inserts do nothing other than protect your exhaust mount.
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....
I've recently posted a review of VWR's side engine mounts which now complete the set of 3 with the VWR 'dogbone' mount.
Linky : - VWR 'Fast Road' Engine Mounts - Review.... (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=6086.0)
Answers to sound and vibration are under the headings THE SOUND OF MUSIC and GOOD VIBRATIONS. You'll have to put up with my enthusiasm! I experienced absolutely no sound or vibration when only the bottom mount aka 'dogbone' was installed.
I would expect the VF engine mounts to give similar results but have no direct experience of them.
Hope this helps :smiley:
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Tony, Red, thank you for your comments!
RedRobin, I'll read your review right away, merci!
:happy2:
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its also worth considering how good your existing mounts are prior to this change.
I fitted the dogbone insert , which helped a lot but in no way did it solve my 'engine slop'
Remember too that the lower gearbox mount from VWR and VF are not equivalents, they both attempt to fix slightly diff areas.
VWR fills in the void with solid rubber (road) or solid metal (race) there is no straight bar component.
VF replaces the straight bar (theres a bush in there too in the OE one) and adds the insert , the original rubber mount (fitted to the lower frame is left as is)
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its also worth considering how good your existing mounts are prior to this change.
....Well, if they are oem, you have only to lift the bonnet and blip the throttle to see how much sloppy movement there is. It's what achieves that feeling of being comfortably numb which the average car owner (or his average missus) wants.
I fitted the dogbone insert , which helped a lot but in no way did it solve my 'engine slop'
....The insert (Neuspeed/ECS torque arm polythingy) will only help cure 'wheel hop' not 'engine slop'.
Remember too that the lower gearbox mount from VWR and VF are not equivalents, they both attempt to fix slightly diff areas.
VWR fills in the void with solid rubber (road) or solid metal (race) there is no straight bar component.
VF replaces the straight bar (theres a bush in there too in the OE one) and adds the insert , the original rubber mount (fitted to the lower frame is left as is)
....Very good point - I forgot that. Relates only to the bottom mount aka dogbone mount though (as you have written). I know that VWR have designed theirs on the basis of their race car experience - They've never had an oem bar break.
:happy2:
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I could't put up with that so its not a mod i am gonna consider. I did the MKIV dogbone and hated it. I think the novelty would wear of on some folks to.
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I could't put up with that so its not a mod i am gonna consider.
I did the MKIV dogbone and hated it. I think the novelty would wear of on some folks to.
....Is it the extra sound of the full engine mount set you couldn't put up with? - The dogbone bottom mount (by VWR, dunno about VF) gives no extra sound whatsoever on the Mk5.
As I reported in my review, the full set only vibrates at startup and does so in an extremely minor way - Just a gentle buzz if you touch the wheel or gear knob, then it disappears.
Out of curiosity, what did you hate about the Mk4 dogbone?
But sure, they won't suit everyone.
:smiley:
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I could't put up with that so its not a mod i am gonna consider. I did the MKIV dogbone and hated it. I think the novelty would wear of on some folks to.
Completely different effect, I too had one on the MKIV and took it off in a month. The MKV suffers none of the same problems when upgrading it, but reaps all of the benefits.
The whole fitment and design is different, so it doesn't transmit straight down the chassis. It took 1-2 weeks to bed it in and eliminate the slight trace of vibration on rolling tickover - now there's nothing, I promise.
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i had the full set of vf engine mounts fitted back in January as I was getting fed up of the constant wheel hop i was getting when giving it some in 1st and 2nd.
they did solve the problem and now there is very little engine movement, the side effects were increased cabin noise and vibrations which I felt through the steering wheel, gear stick (dsg) and brake pedals.
first few hundred miles it was a little shakey especially when sat in traffic in gear, you got quite a bit of feedback through the wheel and the brake pedal, however it stopped if you changed the dsg to 'n'.
it sooned loosend up and the vibrations become less noticeable, I have now done a few thousand miles on them and never feel the brake pedal vibrate anymore only the steering wheel but very slightly.
would highly recommend them make a noticeable difference in all situations- accelerating, stopping, cornering, body roll etc less engine movement improves all of these areas and I can only echoe Robin's comment on the cabin noise
vf also recommend that after a few thousand miles you should go back and get them tightened :happy2:
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vf also recommend that after a few thousand miles you should go back and get them tightened :happy2:
....That's a good idea. I'll ask VWR to check/tighten up mine in due course.
Good to learn about the VF's, James :happy2: 8) :happy2:
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I fitted the dogbone insert , which helped a lot but in no way did it solve my 'engine slop'
....The insert (Neuspeed/ECS torque arm polythingy) will only help cure 'wheel hop' not 'engine slop'.
would have to disagree on that point RR.
Wheelhop or the thing we all call wheelhop (!), is a function of the level to which the engine is restrained (via the 3 mounts),the suspension components , the road conditions and tyres etc and the load through them.
For me and indicated by all the tuners the lower gearbox mount is the 'key' mount (as it control fore/aft engine movement/rotation) primarily , which for me is also classed as 'engine slop'
Therefore wheel hop and engine movement are inter-related (to some degree).
Thats not to rule out the influence of the side engine mounts as well.
On my car all 3 engine mounts have been checked by VW and Awesome and stated as 'within tolerance' / 'same as everyone elses'.
However for me the level of movement is unacceptable and still leads to excessive wheel hop if provoked.
There are some pictures on golfmkv.com that prove OE mounts all degrade significantly dependent on usage and mileage very quickly.
From reading all the comments on various forums , I cant help but feel that the 'baseline' position for engine slop/wheelhop is VERY different between cars given the number of variables possible (wear / tyre type /susp changes etc...)
(interestingly its the same as people providing feedback on the best tyres when the cars are very different too ...)
I intend to change the lower mount first for a VWR one then take it from there , I may even consider 2 new side OE mounts (but this may be a false economy)
Ideally I also need to combine this with the VF / BSH solid gearbox bar too!
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^^^^
Thanks John :happy2:
I'm glad to be corrected on that - I prefer not to inadvertantly spread inaccurate information.
Yes, I agree - Various other factors such as suspension mods etc must surely have an influence. It's the package as a whole which matters.
I too might have stayed with just the lower mount as it clearly has the most tangible benefit. However, I am very pleased to now see no engine movement at all and I just lurve that extra Grrrrrrr! sound!
I find the solid gearbox bar very interesting and attractive too, but I find it easier to let VWR support their complete product rather than mix it up.
:drinking:
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I could't put up with that so its not a mod i am gonna consider. I did the MKIV dogbone and hated it. I think the novelty would wear of on some folks to.
Completely different effect, I too had one on the MKIV and took it off in a month. The MKV suffers none of the same problems when upgrading it, but reaps all of the benefits.
The whole fitment and design is different, so it doesn't transmit straight down the chassis. It took 1-2 weeks to bed it in and eliminate the slight trace of vibration on rolling tickover - now there's nothing, I promise.
Now that sounds better I did think about the Audi S3 ones which I believe are uprated as well?
the mk4 one was real bad.
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looks like powerflex do a replacement for the 'bush in the bar' (cue hilarious jokes lol) (as well as the traditional dogbone insert)
http://www.powerflex.co.uk/products/Golf+Mk5+1K+inc.+GTI+%26+R32+(2004-)-737/1.html (http://www.powerflex.co.uk/products/Golf+Mk5+1K+inc.+GTI+%26+R32+(2004-)-737/1.html)
"Lower Engine Mount Front" £20 which may be a cheaper option that VF/BSH fully solid kits
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^^^ I think this is just the same as the Neuspeed/ECS insert and IIRC you get the powerflex one with the Milltek exhausts :smiley:
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unless Im mistaken , the one Ive listed is NOT the insert one Steve.... its an additional one.
(the traditional insert is listed as well as "Lower Engine Mount Insert (Large)")
looking to create a hybrid of VWR lower mount(road) but at the same time take the flex out of the bar (without paying out for BSH/VF solid versions...) :happy2:
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I see what you mean now :happy2:
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unless Im mistaken , the one Ive listed is NOT the insert one Steve.... its an additional one.
(the traditional insert is listed as well as "Lower Engine Mount Insert (Large)")
looking to create a hybrid of VWR lower mount(road) but at the same time take the flex out of the bar (without paying out for BSH/VF solid versions...) :happy2:
That will be THE best option all round - The VWR mount is superb, but even a weakling like me could bend the dogbone with my bare hands. I'll be looking at the VWR one at some point in the future to add to my VF dogbone, as the OEM rubber mount isn't going to last forever, even with an insert.
Belt & braces FTW.
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looking to create a hybrid of VWR lower mount(road) but at the same time take the flex out of the bar (without paying out for BSH/VF solid versions...) :happy2:
That will be THE best option all round - The VWR mount is superb, but even a weakling like me could bend the dogbone with my bare hands. I'll be looking at the VWR one at some point in the future to add to my VF dogbone, as the OEM rubber mount isn't going to last forever, even with an insert.
Belt & braces FTW.
....I see where you're coming from and am following in your shadow!
If it's any consolation, VWR tell me that they use the stock oem bar with their solid Race mounts and have had no problems after several seasons driving hard on track.
However, there's always a first time and I'm a belt & braces guy too!
Not exactly my cuppa tea, but.... (http://www.virginmedia.com/microsites/tvradio/slideshow/jodie-marsh/img_3.jpg) << Swamp Donkey Warning!!
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I've seen a few popped out on road cars, high milers but it can happen, for £20 it's well worth you sticking a Powerflex one in RR. It'll take longer getting the car up on the ramps to stick it in too, so nice and easy. :happy2:
Oh, and please give warnings if you're going to link to swamp donkeys like her - blurgh!
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I've seen a few popped out on road cars, high milers but it can happen, for £20 it's well worth you sticking a Powerflex one in RR. It'll take longer getting the car up on the ramps to stick it in too, so nice and easy. :happy2:
Oh, and please give warnings if you're going to link to swamp donkeys like her - blurgh!
....I suppose that I can now be called a high-miler at 70k miles. Methinks I'll take your advice next time she's up in the air.
Swamp Donkey Warning now added. It's partly why I didn't post the actual pic (but also because it's not relevant - "Robin, are you feeling alright?")
:happy2:
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found a pic :pomppomp:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.johnoldfield.dsl.pipex.com%2Fimages%2Fweblog%2Fpowerflex_dogbone_mount_pic.jpg&hash=ad37c902d743ec080c097869622a28994661b393)
2 purple halves and 'shaft' ! are replacements for the intermediate OE bush.
The rest (yellow + washers) is the usual 'insert' we are all familiar with.
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Good find John_o :congrats:
I will be purchasing one them to go with my engine mount in a few weeks :party:
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I don't quite understand where those Powerflex purple halves plus shaft would go with this setup of VWR Fast Road 'dodgbone'/lower mount : -
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FMods%2FEngineMount_dogbone.jpg&hash=773f4bdb6a49f8bf7a9c1b7dc7f700556c0314ec)
Can someone help, please?
:drinking:
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See the green bit on the joint of the dogbone?
In there. It's a soft-ish voided rubber bush.
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as tony says the middle bolt.....
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^^^^
Thanks, both! :drinking: & :drinking:
I thought it probably was but it's good to confirm. On the list for my next VWR session - Powerflex PFF 85-505 according to the lefthand box in the pic.
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worth an update me thinks
powerflex dog bone bush (http://www.awesome-gti.co.uk/product.php?xProd=11724&xSec=485) ordered from Awesome :
Lower Engine Mount Front PFF85-505
usual great customer service , thanks Sarah :drinking:
VWR lower engine mount (http://www.volkswagenracing.co.uk/Golf%205%20Pages/Golf%20DrivetrainEngine%20Mounts.html) ordered (Road) :
LWR SUBFRAME PART No VWR1KO 203
after recent forum members comments, I was a little concerned but gave em a call as its the VWR stuff I wanted
I spoke to both Claire (sales) and Mark (tech) , they even called me back :happy2:
Great advice given and part duly ordered. Its seems it should take roughly 75% of the slack out , so thats my first point of call (I suspect that itll be a full set eventually but I need to know the incremental differences for cabin NVH levels)
Its worth stating that based on my current experience VWR look to be trying very hard to improve things and I felt that was worth mentioning here. heres hoping it continues.
both parts to be fitted by Awesome at some point, and then onto the Pod to get low 15's high 13's
Red leader has already done a review on this part :sad: , so Im lost :grin:
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Great info John_O :happy2:
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worth an update me thinks
powerflex dog bone bush (http://www.awesome-gti.co.uk/product.php?xProd=11724&xSec=485) ordered from Awesome :
Lower Engine Mount Front PFF85-505
usual great customer service , thanks Sarah :drinking:
VWR lower engine mount (http://www.volkswagenracing.co.uk/Golf%205%20Pages/Golf%20DrivetrainEngine%20Mounts.html) ordered (Road) :
LWR SUBFRAME PART No VWR1KO 203
after recent forum members comments, I was a little concerned but gave em a call as its the VWR stuff I wanted
I spoke to both Claire (sales) and Mark (tech) , they even called me back :happy2:
Great advice given and part duly ordered. Its seems it should take roughly 75% of the slack out , so thats my first point of call (I suspect that itll be a full set eventually but I need to know the incremental differences for cabin NVH levels)
Its worth stating that based on my current experience VWR look to be trying very hard to improve things and I felt that was worth mentioning here. heres hoping it continues.
both parts to be fitted by Awesome at some point, and then onto the Pod to get low 15's high 13's
Red leader has already done a review on this part :sad: , so Im lost :grin:
Oooh thank you kind sir ;)
No problem at all
Sarah
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awaiting fitment , just shows you how big the VWR mount is :notworthy:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh3.ggpht.com%2F_f42ZbKWLXUk%2FSnStgbaRi_I%2FAAAAAAAABEw%2FhpUxka_i2k0%2Fs640%2Fvwr_lower_mount1.jpg&hash=aea5c43c0fb99212828691e50d25f4977163900e)
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^^^^
I don't know exactly why, john_o but your post and pic is making me grin!
Just wait til you get a Quaife!
Enjoy your new mods, buddy :happy2:
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I am having the same fitted to mine very soon but am going for the solid mounts on mine I don't do rubber lol
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^^^^
You're in for an aural treat, Mat! :happy2: 8) :happy2:
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^^^^
You're in for an aural treat, Mat! :happy2: 8) :happy2:
I do hope so :evilgrin:
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nice one Matt :happy2: , I wasnt brave enough for the full race set.
I'm already concerned about cabin vibration, and wanted to be incremental in adding the mounts as the labour for the lower mount means I dont have the option to really remove it!
(VWR say lower mount only is not advisable with race mounts , its either all 3 or none)
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nice one Matt :happy2: , I wasnt brave enough for the full race set.
I'm already concerned about cabin vibration, and wanted to be incremental in adding the mounts as the labour for the lower mount means I dont have the option to really remove it!
(VWR say lower mount only is not advisable with race mounts , its either all 3 or none)
....I'm guessing that the reason for not mixing 2 solid 'Race' mounts with the 'dogbone' mount is that as they are solid with no rubber/poly, any energy forces would transfer and potentially overwork the dogbone rubber in the third mount.
VWR were happy to install only their dogbone mount (Fast Road version) and it was myself who decided to later do the other 2 as well.
So, I'm concluding that it's only the 'Race' mounts that need all 3 to be the same.
Re your concern about cabin vibration, John, it's the 2 engine side mounts which add any vibration (and glorious Grrrrrrrrr! sounds) but it's minimal with the VWR 'Fast Road' version. It is subjective though and I know you've read my review covering this.
I really like your idea of swopping to that PFF85-505 poly and am going to do it.
:happy2:
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sorry my bad explanation , but I reckon your idea would be correct too Robin..
VWR advised NOT to run lower race mount with OE side mounts, as all the vibration then goes through the lower race mount...
I'll be quite happy if it stays quiet (but I am willing to accept some additional noise)
My overriding concern is getting rid of engine movement whilst retaining a quiet(ish) road car :happy2:
whod of thought engine mounts could be so interesting :signLOL:
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My overriding concern is getting rid of engine movement whilst retaining a quiet(ish) road car :happy2:
whod of thought engine mounts could be so interesting :signLOL:
....With stock side mounts and the VWR lower mount, I found there was still very noticeable engine movement (opened the bonnet and blipped the throttle) but that the car felt to drive as if it's power was transferring to the road very much more directly (too strongly to be mistaken as placebo).
Also, absolutely no vibration/noise until the side mounts were added. I ran the car for a few weeks with just the Fast Road lower mount.
Definitely a very interesting subject! :popcornsoda:
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ok just been to awesome to pickup one of those powerflex bushes and the car is having the race solid mount fitted with the brakes on the 17th :jumpmove: i dont mind hardcore :evilgrin: thats what i am after pure and simple i only want to do the job once and as i do trackdays in mine its what i was told to fit :smiley: cant wait :jumpmove:
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:notworthy:
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:notworthy:
:happy2:
i will add to the review from robin when its done :happy2: as it might be abit mad but ohwell i like to hear my car :rolleye: infact my beetle runs solid mounts all around :laugh:
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I know it doesn't take much but I am still confused :confused:
What's the difference/benefits between the VWR, VF or BSH ones?
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I know it doesn't take much but I am still confused :confused:
What's the difference/benefits between the VWR, VF or BSH ones?
the vf and the bsh ones are just push in bushes but the vwr one is a solid new mount
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VWR : 2 side and 1 lower mount (not dogbone , full replacement insert , OE dogbone left) , 2 types available either with rubber (road) or metal only (race)
VF : 2 side with uprated rubber , 1 lower (dogbone + rubber insert)
BSH : no side mounts available yet , 1 lower (dogbone + rubber insert)
it should be noted the main diff is between the lower mount types and that VWR also do 2 types