MK5 Golf GTI
General => Product Reviews => Topic started by: Top Cat on July 22, 2009, 04:35:17 pm
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:smiley: Another great review for this section. :happy2:
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Why:
In my case, primarily for track days and ‘Ring trips. Could also be used for “spirited†driving.
A 4-point harness is THE best means of staying put in your seat during the manic action found around a track. Hi speed, hi G cornering can easily have you moving around in your seat, even with the beefiest of bolsters, so this keeps you firmly in place. It will reduce fatigue, assist your control of the car and potentially save you cracking your head on the window/B pillar in the event of you getting it out of shape.
I'll update this review with their full evaluation following my track day Oulton Park next week.
Sourcing
You can order them direct from:
Schroth’s website in Germany (http://english.schroth.com/tuning/produktdetail.php?id=42&id_kat1=2)
TTS Roadsport (http://www.ttsroadsport.com/) Ring Vince, as they're not on their website
Rallynuts (http://rallynuts.com/motorsport/SCHROTH%5FHarnesses%5F4386/Schroth_Quickfit_Harness_VW_Golf_MkV_5349.asp)
Fitting
Utilises the car’s OEM seatbelt mountings and clips, so not only convenient, but goes in and out in a matter of seconds. Full TUV approval and full compatibility with your car’s existing crash protection systems, as you’d expect.
Other versions
There is no direct comparison in terms of it being a removable harness. A traditional 4-point would have to be hard-mounted to anchor points in the car and there’s not really a suitable solution to doing this in an ‘easily installed & removed’ way.
The only other thing to consider would be a CG Lock (http://www.cg-lock.co.uk/app/performance/), but that’s an entirely different product.
Plus Points
The full security and control of a 4-point race harness that can be installed and removed in a matter of seconds to your OEM seats. Need I say more?
No need for buying those expensive ‘optional’ Recaro CS seats.. ha ha!
Minus Points
Cost @ £135 delivered compared to a fixed one at half the price. Although the same harness fits a multitude of VAG cars, so could cross over to your next purchase quite easily.
Summary
I was over the moon when I found these as I was going to take the plunge on a fixed 4-point, I’m sure if you want to use your car in a similar way I do mine, you’ll feel likewise.
I’ll post some pics of them fitted ASAP, but here’s the idea…
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fenglish.schroth.com%2Fgfx%2Fdyn%2Fprodukte_daten%2Fgross_450%2F42%2F1.jpg&hash=35e9d55e4a711fd4d3226443237a1cb16c7e8381)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fenglish.schroth.com%2Fgfx%2Fdyn%2Fallgemein%2Fquickfit_detail.jpg&hash=5dac7c1a79120642cd6bd5246b685622e40571bf)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.elephantmotorsports.com%2Fimages%2Fget%2F357%2F.jpg&hash=b0acef6782720a8f71ddef5071bf1beb6b2db281)
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how do you fit the door side of the harness to provide a buckle attachment? screw in something??
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....
Sounds great but do they fit these? : -
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FMods%2FR.jpg&hash=407357a9c76805f7018e3a7bef6fecdef16ef887)
And also chungster's question about door side fixings.
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Chungster, I've attached a picture - there's 2 'tabs' that remain a permanent fixture in the car, they bolt into the existing seatbelt mounting points.
RR - yes, you'll need to undo the shoulder straps to feed them through though.
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Thanks Mike for the review. :happy2:
And thanks for helping me spend more money. I think i need one of these in my life, now my car is nearly ready for future track days. :smiley:
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superb idea and write up :notworthy:
all we need is a 'in situ tony pic with harness' to complete it :happy2:
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now i like them :happy2: defo gettting some of them :smiley:
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and how much is a set of these??
can't see them on DT or TTS sites!
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Chungster, I've attached a picture - there's 2 'tabs' that remain a permanent fixture in the car, they bolt into the existing seatbelt mounting points.
RR - yes, you'll need to undo the shoulder straps to feed them through though.
....Cheers, Mr D :drinking:
Looks like they do them in red too! :drool:
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I'll do some photos ASAP and a step by step fitting guide.
They're seemingly very hard to lay your mitts on at the moment.
I found a set at by chance as whilst searching and noticed someone had done a group buy on them a while back for the TTclub. Phoned and they had a set left over, so I snagged them.
Rallynuts never got back to my emails & don't pick up their phone seemingly to tell me if they had them in stock or they were an 'order only' item.
TTS don't list them on their website for some reason - call them.
Demon Tweeks are a Schroth agent, but don't list the Quickfit, again try calling
I think you're either going to have to order them direct from Germany, find someone prepared to order a load in, or just accept what you can find here in the UK, meaning you may not get the colour you want.
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RR - yes, you'll need to undo the shoulder straps to feed them through though.
....I hate to tell you guys this but those like TC and myself will be better off with our Recaros with the belts slotting through. Forces on the easily removable headrest won't be quite as safe in some collision circumstances. However, by sliding the joint closer to the rear of the stock headrest, that factor should improve.
On the other hand, our Recaros don't have such effective 'headrests' and we don't have seat airbags.
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friends of mine have used these for ages, will be curious to see how these work out given the GTI head rests have the lip down on the front which goes over the seat back and go over the shoulder, that said we have our cranked up a fair bit
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia2.paultan.org%2Fimages%2FVolkswagen_Golf_GTI_Malaysia_Special_Edition_2.jpg&hash=55a9f3c394c03740ca5682916ec1124f07b1ab2a)
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friends of mine have used these for ages, will be curious to see how these work out given the GTI head rests have the lip down on the front which goes over the seat back and go over the shoulder, that said we have our cranked up a fair bit
....Unless you choose to crank up your GTI headrests yourself, I wouldn't be surprised if the Schroth belts will crank them up for you! They would surely 'crank' upwards as the belt is subjected to forces while driving - and then the belt straps would then become looser?
I'm just playing Devil's Advocate on this subject and am exploring what limitations these otherwise excellent Schroth belts may have.
:happy2:
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Yep, you're absolutely right, Robin. Yours have the guide holes for a very good reason, to keep the straps on your shoulders.
I would only use these on the track no matter what seat I had, mainly for the reason on certain types of junction you have to lean forward to see. This would mean loosening the belts to enable you to move and if you were to be shunted, you wouldn't be safe.
In terms of track use:
They're still better than a 3 point seatbelt.
You MUST have them tight
You MUST guide them through the headrest poles to ensure they don't/can't slip over the shoulders of the seat. Doing this makes them no different to the style of seat below, and to be fair the headrest should be raised for most people anyway to work properly.
If it all were to go wrong though, I think a bit of belt marking on the neck would pale into insignificance compared to everything else.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FSiper2%2FSubaru_Impreza%2FImpreza-STi-2008-seats.jpg&hash=4b4190fd6e82ef4cc03c3742932792cdb9b37f7f)
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This is the harness I have in the Cupra :D
98€ fitted. Need to turn off the seatbelt warning chime with vag com though, till then i have my seat belt plugged in going around the back of my seat...
Get on well with this
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Is yours just a normal Schroth 4-pointer? As this actually clips into the existing seatbelt buckle, so no need for the vagcom mod/belt work-a-round.
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Is yours just a normal Schroth 4-pointer? As this actually clips into the existing seatbelt buckle, so no need for the vagcom mod/belt work-a-round.
No its the 3point with a clip at the back allowing the rear strap to drop to allow rear passenger. Doesn't use any of the existing seatbelt buckles...
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Yep, you're absolutely right, Robin. Yours have the guide holes for a very good reason, to keep the straps on your shoulders.
....It would be rude not to use them! :grin:
I would only use these on the track no matter what seat I had, mainly for the reason on certain types of junction you have to lean forward to see. This would mean loosening the belts to enable you to move and if you were to be shunted, you wouldn't be safe.
....Very good point re some road junctions. When I recently drove the road-legal track GTI (pic in my sig) with full harness, I had two problems: 1) The sides of the Recaro Pole Positions blocking my view, and 2) Betty Swollox from the groin tightness. I still absolutely loved driving her on the road though!
I find that side>rear visibility with my Recaros is greatly improved in comparison with my stock GTI driving seat.
You MUST guide them through the headrest poles to ensure they don't/can't slip over the shoulders of the seat. Doing this makes them no different to the style of seat below, and to be fair the headrest should be raised for most people anyway to work properly.
....The headrest SHOULD be raised as you say, but I wonder how many people's actually are?
If it all were to go wrong though, I think a bit of belt marking on the neck would pale into insignificance compared to everything else.
.... :laugh: - Agreed!
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FSiper2%2FSubaru_Impreza%2FImpreza-STi-2008-seats.jpg&hash=4b4190fd6e82ef4cc03c3742932792cdb9b37f7f)
^^^^ Now THAT is a great fast road car seat!
:happy2:
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Group Buy open kiddywinks!!
Fill yer boots.
Link (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=6367.msg97982#msg97982)
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Picsies, took 10 minutes to install. Car's now stripped and ready for Friday.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fe123%2Frobertsm2006%2FIMG_2134.jpg&hash=63990c5ed4e13efe98c104182be4375279fe9cc9)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fe123%2Frobertsm2006%2FIMG_2135.jpg&hash=e1ad52d30efbf2c5044f63aa12cd7c84536ccb3b)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fe123%2Frobertsm2006%2FIMG_2138.jpg&hash=b4b8586c193fe16b1d51a68b9b11dfed3cfae9f8)
Oh, and a new rear badge. OEM FTW.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fe123%2Frobertsm2006%2FIMG_2131.jpg&hash=aa5f77110e26597ac61880a27742fe7396a5d444)
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Me Likey. :happy2:
May even change the colour of mine to the same, i have a thing for yellow at the moment. :rolleye:
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oooooo they look OEM++ :happy2:
non electric lumbar support ???? eh?
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(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fe123%2Frobertsm2006%2FIMG_2134.jpg&hash=63990c5ed4e13efe98c104182be4375279fe9cc9)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fe123%2Frobertsm2006%2FIMG_2135.jpg&hash=e1ad52d30efbf2c5044f63aa12cd7c84536ccb3b)
....Are those 'star' bolts already on the car?
And what rating should they be tightened to?
Cheers :happy2:
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Yes, they're the existing seatbelt anchor points - can't remember the torque settings though, sorry. TTS should know.
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^^^^
Thanks, Mike :happy2:
Abi is going to contact Schroth to find out about torque settings but we are collectively thinking that as it's not stated in the German instructions (as far as we can see), then it's not critical. Probably just tighten with human arm until it won't go any further without using extra force or stripping the bolt - Rather like the Recaro seats on the floor.
@ TC - For us guys with Recaro's, it's best to undo all the quick release parts and fold and feed through the Recaro slots from the rear. :smiley:
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I checked it once and basically it's pretty much as tight as you can get it with a rachet - I've had the seats in and out that many times now I just do it up as hard as I can. You'll not strip the thread on those bad boys!
You'll need to bend the buckle for the front one, vice and a set of grips will do the trick. It tells you how to do it in the instructions.
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^^^^
Ah, I wondered what that bending illustration was all about.
I haven't got the appropriate tools to install so I'll have to visit my mate who reupholstered my Recaro's or wait til my next visit to VWR. Or....If you could tell me which size 'star' bolt bit to get I could buy one.
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Tools required and a guide for the back seat out here (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3510.0)
Front one, simply pull the carpet back from the sill cover and it's towards the front of the slider rail - 6" extention will help here.
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^^^^
Brilliant, Mike! :drinking:
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....
Schroth Quickfit belt got fitted today and I drove home about 170 miles wearing it - Very comfortable and especially good when heavy braking.
They are TUV approved and so perfectly good for everyday road use if you want. I was just familiarising myself with them.
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Good stuff.
Have you bothered with a set of harness pads, or are you ok?? I find them quite comfy without.
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^^^^
No harness pads. I was just wearing a T-shirt (and trousers!) and found the harness comfortable. A little tricky when reversing but fortunately helped by my Recaro's giving a more open view to side-rear.
The trouble I can foresee is preferring them and wanting to use them all the time. I think I might investigate devising a way of clipping them out of the way so I can use the oem safety belt without completely removing the Schroth harness.
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I'd say just swing it over both seat shoulders and fasten it back together around the back, but it might mark your seat backs??
Also, forgot to mention, make sure the lap section is nice and low in position - you don't want to submarine out of the seat in the event of a crash. Should be where a normal 3 pointer sits, under the belly!!
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^^^^
To 'park' it when not in use but leaving it in the car, at the front it easily sits down the sides: Door side and in the space under the armrest as photo : -
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FTrack%2FSchroth_parkedfront.jpg&hash=9a7f8505cb451dd01d9938b5ce8813fae9d2d1b5)
At the back it can either be left attached : -
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FTrack%2FSchroth_rearfix.jpg&hash=56c59048fcefe37e20addd7b7d0ad23244503e0e)
Or left loose if a passenger doesn't mind it : -
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FTrack%2FSchroth_parkedback.jpg&hash=877179d7a270efb7620b2e4c073c0a3f4ec11a39)
Obviously this suits Recaro's or slotted seats very well.
Thanks for the tip about 'submarining' - At the moment the lap section is across my navel - I'll check that aspect when next in my car.
I wasn't intending to leave the Schroth in my car but decided I should get familiar with it before driving the Nordschleife. However, for longer journeys in which there are always opportunities for safe spirited driving I'm inclined to want to wear the Schroth. Perhaps its the novelty but it does add yet another dimension to the feel of driving.
This is a really good find, Mike - :drinking: And perfect timing! :happy2:
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Have you informed your insurance company Robin that you are using it on public roads. I seem to remember quite a fuss when Chris was thinking about changing to a red seat belt. :smiley:
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^^^^
Very good point, TC - I haven't informed them yet. Greenlight, so I'm not expecting any problems - Especially as I'll be telling them they're TUV approved.
I'm just waiting for my OZ's to be fitted then was going to inform Greenlight in one hit so I would only get charged a single £25 policy update fee. Would also include the CatchCan.
Cheers :drinking:
You tried out yours yet?
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No they only arrived yesterday. I am thinking of leaving my back seat out permanently depending on how loud the exhaust note is after its out. I have been thinking of asking Luke is there anything he could knock up in the way of posh carpet to cover the under seat plan. :smiley:
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I am thinking of leaving my back seat out permanently depending on how loud the exhaust note is after its out. I have been thinking of asking Luke is there anything he could knock up in the way of posh carpet to cover the under seat plan. :smiley:
....Great idea if you don't use your back seats. I'm sure that someone (such as Luke) could do you a really nice carpet job and one which had a degree of soundproofing (if you wanted it).
A roll-cage on your list by any chance? :happy2:
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Legally I think you're ok with a 4-point, it is E-marked and TUV aproved after all, but check with your insurance to make sure. However, I find it a bit of a pain in the arse with oblique junctions etc, slackening it off to see properly.
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However, I find it a bit of a pain in the arse with oblique junctions etc, slackening it off to see properly.
....I haven't had that problem yet and if I do find it tricky then I won't be using the Schroth so much - We'll see. Great product though and perfect for track days (and special German toll roads!).
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is there not an isofix bar in the golf? bolt into there as it would drive me nuts how its on cock in back?
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Had my back seat out today ( with thanks to Greenouse. :happy2: ) And then fitted my harness. It does what it says on the tin. :happy2:
Think i may need some pads for the shoulder and collar bone area, for long journeys.
Also once the Blueflame warms up its seriously loud in the cabin. (https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Ftomashandmilly%2FDaft_stuff%2Fabsturz.gif&hash=95b83e4785176a5b9442b1c4d803f0272d6dfc01) makes the car seem faster with all the noise. :laugh:
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No worries Lar! :happy2:
Got any pics? Also thinking of taking my rear seats out so if you do get Luke to make you something up :wink: :smiley:
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No worries Lar! :happy2:
Got any pics? Also thinking of taking my rear seats out so if you do get Luke to make you something up :wink: :smiley:
No pics as yet. I think to make something looking good to cover the floor plan it will need to be one whole piece going right into the boot. :happy2:
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....
I just updated my Greenlight insurance to cover the Schroth harness and OZ LeggyRita's and TyreSure monitor and none of these items are a problem. I think that the key to it is that these items are TUV approved. The broker I spoke to knew about these items - The average car insurance person on the end of a phone wouldn't know what the heck I was talking about but Greenlight are very familiar. He even suggested that my policy note could cover me swopping between my wheels whenever I wanted. All for the standard £25 policy update fee.
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Having now used my Schroth Quickfit harness at The Ring and a trackday at Spa, I can report that it's extremely comfortable and you soon forget how nice and tightly strapped in you are.
It's a bit of an effort threading the bulky part through my Recaro slot so I've left mine installed in the car for the time being. It's easy and tidy to stow and so results in having a choice of seatbelt every time you get in the car.
TUV approved and a great product.
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....
Posted by animal in another thread (was off-topic) : -
Not wanting to take this any further off topic, but that photo concerns me Robin - are those your seats?
Bucket seats such as those shown here are rarely strong enough to actually take harnesses through the cut-outs, they are purely cosmetic. It was the same story on the old RS Focus - people we putting harnesses through the seats, but the backs of the seat aren't designed to take the load from a harness and can buckle and distort in a heavy impact, offering little or no support and potentially fatal consquences as the seat collapses around you. Just thought I'd let you know in case you weren't already aware of the dangers. The seat backs are separate from the base and arent stiff enough, like proper one-piece bucket seats, to handle forces exerted on them.
I don't mean to preach, but it's quite a serious safety concern - particularly on a track. They look lovely though... I hope I can source some.
....I think this is a question of safety best answered by both Recaro and Schroth. I will attempt to get some info from them and post accordingly in due course.
Meanwhile, my tuppence-worth is that the Recaro's are probably (hopefully!) stronger than those in an old Ford RS Focus. But more importantly, do you know of any fatal or serious injury crashes where these Schroth Quikfit belts were installed?
Also my Recaro versions don't fold forward very well, although they aren't a one-piece shell. There must be plenty of one-piece shell bucket seats on the market which are neither TUV approved nor of a material which won't shatter/break under severe duress, but I haven't researched this point.
Also, the Schroth literature accompanying their Quikfit harness makes a big point of where the rear straps should and shouldn't be anchored and surely this is with seatbelt safety uppermost in their mind.
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Hmm.. an interesting point and one that certainly can't be dismissed given the seriousness. I'm in no way qualified to give an answer, but here's my views.
I've know that placing the mountings at the wrong angle can break a seat, and your back.... no matter if it is a 1 piece or whatever. Their placement is ABSOLUTELY key.
I can only place faith in the TUV approval and the fact the mountings are well within the correct angle range. I can also only place faith in Recaro not making a seat with harness guides that isn't actually suitable to use harnesses with. It'd be lawsuit city.
IIRC the MKI RS Focus had Sparco seats? not exactly a make with no provenance - did any Sparco seats in an RSF actually fail? I'd be very interested in seeing one. Were people mounting them correctly?
The new EVO has OEM provision for harnesses to be used with their OEM 2 piece seats, the mountings are hidden under flaps in the rear shelf. Surely these would have been type and safety approved if the manufacturer is putting these in as standard?
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^^^^
Whether you are 'qualified' or not Mike, your views on this make a great deal of sense to me - All very good points. TUV are pretty strict AFAIK.
It may take some time for me to get Recaro and Schroth replies. No wonder I don't have time to work!
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i dont think your seats will have been tested with harness as they are a design thing and i would think the belts are tuv approved but maybe not for your seats
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I am trying to imagine a type of crash were the unfortunate person sitting in the seat somehow got thrown forward with such force that the seat snapped. The whole idea of the harness is to keep you rooted to the seat.
I think if you managed to crash with such force as to do this then your neck would snap before the seat. :sick:
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If the mounting points were at the wrong angle, say for example in the rear footwell (so like 70degrees off horizontal) - then it'd cause the seat to rotate as it'd pull down on the shoulders/harness guides of it and snap the back. You may also submarine out of it..
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Robin, it's the harness its self that is TUV approved - that has no bearing what-so-ever on an individual installation or what seat it used with.
I would say that an Evo is far more likely to be set up for use with harnesses than a Golf GTi considering the market they are pitched at and the provsion of anchor points supports this. I've been trying to find info on the RS seats without success but they are very similar is design to the GTi seats, although as Robin points out - his GTi seats don't tilt forward like the RS ones do (as its a 3dr body shell). I wouldn't be at all suprised if the cut outs were just cosmetic though..
We can speculate until the cows come home - I agree we need solid facts to back this up. Sorry to open a can worms! But it is fairly well known in RS owner-circles that it's not considered safe as the seat cut-outs are more for aethetics than actual use. Perhaps our resident racing driver might be able to shed some light on this?
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If the mounting points were at the wrong angle, say for example in the rear footwell (so like 70degrees off horizontal) - then it'd cause the seat to rotate as it'd pull down on the shoulders/harness guides of it and snap the back. You may also submarine out of it..
This is it... the concern with the RS seats was not that the two parts might seperate but the tendancy to twist because of the inherent weakness in the two part contruction. You need the seat to be as rigid as possible to handle the forces exerted on it. Everyone always assumes impact forces are linear where they very rarely are. People also seriously underestimate the forces involved in vehicles impacts, even at low speed.
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The TUV approval on these harnesses is on a per-car basis, i.e. there is a specific model of harness particular to each vehicle - so it can only be assumed they have been designed in conjunction with each other.
They're not "universal" in a traditional 3/4/6 point off the shelf sense.
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Bin em its not worth the risk i have seen so many smashed cars in the past as i had to go around all the bodyshops for my work and u would be shocked to see what happens to a seat on impact :sick:. I have seen done up chav cars with this type of system fitted and the seats have twisted and snapped due to the force :sad1: the holes in your seats are for design pure and simple
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Mat, I totally get your point - it can't be assumed that because you have harness guides, you have a seat that can be used with harnesses... but it doesn't completely rule them all out as unsafe.
The EVO having 2 piece seats and OEM harness mountings (I'm 99% sure you can buy harnesses for the car direct from Mitsu?) proves that having the correct seat and mounting angles is safe. This is what is key here.
The TUV approval for the MK5 specific harness may have been based on the OEM seat, rather than the optional Recaro - Robin needs to check this.
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just been looking at the design of these and the only way u will ever know is if u crash and thats not what u want :sad1: but they do look very good and the design looks like it should works fine but as i say who knows. I would defo use them on a track day but not on the road :smiley:
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Maybe jonny knows people in his job that would be able to shed some light on this type of system for road/track :confused: might be good to ask him
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The TUV approval on these harnesses is on a per-car basis, i.e. there is a specific model of harness particular to each vehicle - so it can only be assumed they have been designed in conjunction with each other.
They're not "universal" in a traditional 3/4/6 point off the shelf sense.
Ah ok... I understand, I didnt realise it was a MkV specific harness.
Mat - It was Jonny I mean by resident racing driver.
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No probs animal - I completely get where you were coming from. I assume the RS boys were fitting a common or garden 4pointer?
Basically if you're going down that route, ensure the seat is compatible and know any deviation from these angles can cause failure. Belt points should never share seat mounting points, and only ever use reinforced mountings... not just chav style holes in the floor and a big washer!
It's also worth noting that any 'E' marked harness can be used on the road (like a Megane R26.R) but it WILL restrict your ability to see at oblique junctions, for example. I wouldn't recommend it personally.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.securon.co.uk%2Ffitting%2Fextras%2Ff4.jpg&hash=7462c53ab3af5104f21ee244bd9895fb0d1e0d70)
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No probs animal - I completely get where you were coming from. I assume the RS boys were fitting a common or garden 4pointer?
Basically if you're going down that route, ensure the seat is right and any deviation from these angles can cause failure.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.securon.co.uk%2Ffitting%2Fextras%2Ff4.jpg&hash=7462c53ab3af5104f21ee244bd9895fb0d1e0d70)
I'm not 100% sure but I'd imagine so, all I remember was that the seat-backs aren't strong enough - but again, they are tilt-seats for a three door car. I know there are some kits that use exisiting seat belt mounts which aren't good at all due to the angle of the belt between the back of the seat and lower mounting point on the floor at the base of the B pillar, these would most definitely induce twist in an impact!
I have to say, in our health and safety culture I am suprised that the Recaros don't carry a marking indicating that they are/are not fit for harnesses. I bet this is something that even VW would struggle to answer and just give an arse-covering 'No' to be safe! At least if they were based on a commercially available seat you could check the specs but like the RS Sparcos, they are OEM models which makes life a bit trickier.
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The OEM Recaro is a Sportster CS on a VAG mounting.
Recaro states they are approved for use with a 4-point harness here (http://www.recaro.com/index.php?id=494®ion=0&L=2). Both in 3 door (tilting) and 5 door (non tilting) variants.
Quite possibly Ford cut corners and the Sparco one was just "for show"?
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I'm not 100% sure but I'd imagine so, all I remember was that the seat-backs aren't strong enough - but again, they are tilt-seats for a three door car. I know there are some kits that use exisiting seat belt mounts which aren't good at all due to the angle of the belt between the back of the seat and lower mounting point on the floor at the base of the B pillar, these would most definitely induce twist in an impact!
Yep, unless you can ensure the shoulder belts are pretty much like this below, then you want to be using a crossover and a spreader to ensure it 'pulls' straight.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.securon.co.uk%2Ffitting%2Fextras%2Ff2.jpg&hash=9bcda429487d8802954313b534f5aab5511e9572)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.demon-tweeks.co.uk%2Fresources%2Fimages%2Fzoom%2FSAB_RRH_4PDR.jpg&hash=fb8208de3264b3ad9f7ca09db52fb62fe049c0ad)
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The OEM Recaro is a Sportster CS on a VAG mounting.
Recaro states they are approved for use with a 4-point harness here (http://www.recaro.com/index.php?id=494®ion=0&L=2). Both in 3 door (tilting) and 5 door (non tilting) variants.
Quite possibly Ford cut corners and the Sparco one was just "for show"?
I was under the impression that although it resembles the Sportster, it is an OEM special, not the retail version? But again, only through internet waffle and hear-say, nothing concrete. Perhaps this was a lot of fuss over nothing after all... :ashamed:
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Perhaps this was a lot of fuss over nothing after all... :ashamed:
....Not at all. I, and I'm sure others here, are very grateful you have raised the question - It's an important question and of great value to be able to discuss it. :drinking:
For what it's worth, my insurer Greenlight is familiar with them and completely happy to include their use whenever I so wish. Although as tony_d rightly points out it's impossible to lean forward at a blind junction for example and so I don't usually use them on the road.
Gotta dash out now but contacting Recaro and Schroth is now on my To-Do list.
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Yeah, there's a few cosmetic tweaks but essentially the same shell and contruction.
No fuss, you've rightly pointed out that you should never assume when it comes to safety, always check.
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http://www.schroth.com/installation-instructions/en/index.html
:happy2:
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plenty of info there i think :happy2:
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http://www.schroth.com/installation-instructions/en/index.html
:happy2:
....Excellent! I think that info saves me needing to contact Schroth (Job #432). Thanks Mat :drinking:
Of course most of the info is written for Schroth's full race harnesses but much also applies to their Quikfit.
I think this link should be added to tony_danza's first post.
I now need to check the 20º rear strap angle 'rule' on my car.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.schroth.com%2Finstallation-instructions%2Fen%2Fimages%2Fimage_033.gif&hash=dc55f9bd5922a16bff08ec287367e3748d8047a4)
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Robin, that's for a HANS harness - completely different set of rules and angles.
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Robin, that's for a HANS harness - completely different set of rules and angles.
....Then try this link : - http://www.schrothracing.com/store/Tuning/quick-fit/qf-vw-audi
Btw, the Schroth QuickFit can be used with a HANS yoke.
I'll keep searching..
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....
Check out the Instructions booklet > page 19 > Vehicle Reference List > VW Golf V - "Only with Approved After Market Seats". That doesn't look like good news for oem seats and puts a question mark over the Recaro's even though they were a limited factory option.
Link : - http://www.schrothracing.com/docs/VW_&_Audi_Quick_Fit_Instructions.pdf
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(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fa.espncdn.com%2Fphoto%2F2008%2F0408%2Frpm_ap_crash_dummy_300.jpg&hash=2b74f3ea831d48f318beb3622230ab884d0a8b87)
Hey, hang on a sec..
The Schroth QuickFit harnesses has ASM technology which, if you check out the ASM Document wmv file linked on the Instructions web page, you'll see is crash dummy test illustrated to be potentially far less damaging than standard safety belts! This actually presents a case for wearing them everyday - I already know that my insurer has no problem with that.
Of course it all relies on the QuickFit being properly installed and properly worn.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.socialmediamarketing.com%2Fblog%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2009%2F08%2FCrashTestDummy-2-8544b.jpg&hash=66b3b7946fccba8dd57a9a0da8cefdf3e0b93f5c)
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....
Check out the Instructions booklet > page 19 > Vehicle Reference List > VW Golf V - "Only with Approved After Market Seats". That doesn't look like good news for oem seats and puts a question mark over the Recaro's even though they were a limited factory option.
Link : - http://www.schrothracing.com/docs/VW_&_Audi_Quick_Fit_Instructions.pdf
Robin - if you look up, there's a link from Recaro stating your seats are approved for use with a 4-point harness......
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Robin - if you look up, there's a link from Recaro stating your seats are approved for use with a 4-point harness......
....Is the Recaro seat as TC's and mine one of these? : -
Keiper Recaro:
Orthopäd, Designer Touring, Idealsitz SR, Idealsitz L/LX/LS 84, Idealsitz CS84, CSE, T-Line, Designer Sport, C-Classic, TX, N, LS, CT, Variomed, A 8, Modular, Ergomed, IS 2000 Style, D&W-Sitze
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Its known as a CS, so I can only assume a CSE is the version provided to the likes of VAG/BMW/Ford/Renault.
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Also, forgot to mention, make sure the lap section is nice and low in position - you don't want to submarine out of the seat in the event of a crash. Should be where a normal 3 pointer sits, under the belly!!
....Should be positioned as you and Schroth's Instructions rightly say. The "ASM" in the Schroth QuickFit title stands for Anti Submarining Mechanism. I've now seen a vid with crash dummies which shows how the Schroth ASM works.
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My link has opened a can of worms :rolleye:
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I can see if now...
Glasses on end of nose, printed off on A3 and highlighter pen giving it six-nowt.
/pulling legs.
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Its known as a CS, so I can only assume a CSE is the version provided to the likes of VAG/BMW/Ford/Renault.
....Recaro CSE has user operable electric settings and memory and looks different to both ours.
The Recaro web site won't give a direct link to the page so: HOME Original Equipment >> Products >> All vehicles >> VW Golf V GTI >> and our Mk5 GTI has what Recaro call "cccls" as one of its many oem products for car manufacturers. The cccls is pictured as the same as mine and TC's and not the standard oem GTI seat. However I can find no other reference anywhere in cyberspace which relates to "Recaro cccls".
Looking at the various Recaro seat types which Schroth approve, I'm fairly confident we don't have a problem.
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Its known as a CS, so I can only assume a CSE is the version provided to the likes of VAG/BMW/Ford/Renault.
....Recaro CSE has user operable electric settings and memory and looks different to both ours.
The Recaro web site won't give a direct link to the page so: HOME Original Equipment >> Products >> All vehicles >> VW Golf V GTI >> and our Mk5 GTI has what Recaro call "cccls" as one of its many oem products for car manufacturers. The cccls is pictured as the same as mine and TC's and not the standard oem GTI seat. However I can find no other reference anywhere in cyberspace which relates to "Recaro cccls".
Looking at the various Recaro seat types which Schroth approve, I'm fairly confident we don't have a problem.
I have posted this else where in a current, relevant post. But, I thought it important to capture it here. It would seem my early concerns weren't entirely un-founded after all. I noticed this on my lower B-pillar (inside the door-shut) at the weekend (I have factory fitted Recaros):
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fv291%2Fanimal87%2F22052010025.jpg&hash=cabed4f2bdff5d99db321cb002c1a581801921e4)
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^^^^
I still think it depends on the angle of the straps. The Schroth info shows it and it's already been posted in this thread IIRC. The point is that the Schroth Quikfit uses extra floor anchors (and it's TUV approved).
That label illustration shows the Recaro seat front, not back, and the Schroth male 'tabs' run in the other opposite direction.
Furthermore, I translate that label as an instruction to feed the 'tabs' in the direction which the Schroth does.
I would even go as far as suggesting that this label indicates a support of the use of such safety belts.
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^^^^
I still think it depends on the angle of the straps. The Schroth info shows it and it's already been posted in this thread IIRC. The point is that the Schroth Quikfit uses extra floor anchors (and it's TUV approved).
That label illustration shows the Recaro seat front, not back, and the Schroth male 'tabs' run in the other opposite direction.
Furthermore, I translate that label as an instruction to feed the 'tabs' in the direction which the Schroth does.
I would even go as far as suggesting that this label indicates a support of the use of such safety belts.
Robin, a big part of my job is designing pictograms for user instructions and making things as simple and as clear cut as possible graphically, whilst being technically correct and leaving little scope for mis-interpretation. This is without any doubt a warning sticker. IM(professional)O, a picto of a bucket seat with a big red cross through it leave very little doubt as to what message VW are trying to convey. My technical specialist colleagues agree. This picto is not about the type of harness, it's about the inherent weakness of the seat due to it being designed to articulate forward.
I'm not saying to you shouldn't use your harness but clearly VW don't endorse it. I have simply posted this to inform others considering harnesses who may have also retrofitted these same seats and therefore are unaware of VW's official position on the matter.
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a big red cross says under no terms fit a harness pure and simple as these seats are more for show the are not race seats :smiley:
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Perhaps we should do some in house forum testing?
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.blogcdn.com%2Fwww.autoblog.com%2Fmedia%2F2007%2F08%2Fcrash-dummy.jpg&hash=2461f6cf016ec58a7af2d418cd1ba3101c56f520)
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sounds dodgy to me. very dodgy. that warning pic is pretty self explanatory as well, and you could be pretty certain it is not belt specific
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^^^^
Yes, as I just posted in the other thread, it's the tilt release where the potential problem is.
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(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fv211%2Fstokeballoon%2FForumNurburgringtrip191.jpg&hash=dfec54dc04fb0860c3601fb0f642a5cd7504b2e9)
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I had a think about this earlier today while i was changing my sons nappy, and i can see why it is a problem. With the conventional belt, under load you are held or anchored from either side of your body. With the harness the anchor points are behind you. So if you were in a front on smash and the G-forces pull the top half of the seat forward, with your body there is nothing stopping the top half of the seat collapsing and your top half of the body would then lurch forward instead of being restrained upright. :rolleye:
Would a way of solving this not be to wear your normal belt as well which would then keep you upright and allow the harness to work as well. :happy2:
Greta pic by the way. :grin: Whats on your sandwiches MR Balloon. :laugh:
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I had a think about this earlier today while i was changing my sons nappy, and i can see why it is a problem. With the conventional belt, under load you are held or anchored from either side of your body. With the harness the anchor points are behind you. So if you were in a front on smash and the G-forces pull the top half of the seat forward, with your body there is nothing stopping the top half of the seat collapsing and your top half of the body would then lurch forward instead of being restrained upright. :rolleye:
Would a way of solving this not be to wear your normal belt as well which would then keep you upright and allow the harness to work as well. :happy2:
....I came to the same conclusion too, but then I thought some more and realised that the harness (Schroth Quikfit) isn't an inertia belt - It's a tight fixed fit and so in effect your upper body and seat back are held together. In other words, won't the fixed harness prevent/reduce the seat back from tilting forward even if the tilt lock gets released? At least that's the theory, but.
Btw, these Schroth harnesses have an anti-submarining mechanism - That's something which will help the body to seat interactive dynamic.
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But wont the top half of the seat just force forward making the strap cut through your shoulders as this is the place of least resistance. :chicken:
Also it would be worth finding out what G-force is required to brake the point of the tilt forward recaro seat. :happy2:
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But wont the top half of the seat just force forward making the strap cut through your shoulders as this is the place of least resistance. :chicken:
Also it would be worth finding out what G-force is required to brake the point of the tilt forward recaro seat. :happy2:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fa.espncdn.com%2Fphoto%2F2008%2F0408%2Frpm_ap_crash_dummy_300.jpg&hash=2b74f3ea831d48f318beb3622230ab884d0a8b87)
....Back to school methinks - This is now getting scientific. I wish we had some definite answers. An email to Recaro perhaps?
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.
Have been talking to someone today and we think we could disable the Recaro's tilt release so that the seat back remains permanently locked in place. When locked it's very solid and meets TUV.
Such a solution would save buying a more race orientated seat and having to swop driver's seat for trackdays with harness, Schroth Quikfit or otherwise.
Have now started a new thread on the specific subject:
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,15066.0.html
I forgot to say Thank You to *animal* for bringing this to our attention :drinking: