MK5 Golf GTI

All Things Mk5 => Modifications & Technical Area => Performance Modifications => Topic started by: Simmo on June 02, 2013, 09:47:22 am

Title: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: Simmo on June 02, 2013, 09:47:22 am
Does anyone know if its possible to map the car (revo/apr or other) so that it is impossible to drive the car hard when the oil isn't fully warmed up?

Reason is my fiancé is a bit of a girl racer and I'm pretty sure she gives the car full bore down a local dual carriage way on the way to work when she (occasionally and now rarely) borrows my car!

Cheers
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: stealthwolf on June 02, 2013, 10:25:16 am
Stick it in valet mode before you give the keys over?
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: danishmkvgti on June 02, 2013, 12:14:23 pm
I believe that i got my APR map they stated that you were restricted until the oil was up to temp.  :confused:
Not sure if it's true or not  :smiley:
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: xjay1337 on June 02, 2013, 05:17:09 pm
I'd simply tell your fiancee to drive it properly until the engine is up to temperature or not drive it at all!  :confused: :confused:
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: rich83 on June 02, 2013, 05:21:41 pm
I'd simply tell your fiancee to drive it properly until the engine is up to temperature or not drive it at all!  :confused: :confused:

You dont have a fiancee do you?    You know how i know this?
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: danishmkvgti on June 02, 2013, 05:27:51 pm
I'd simply tell your fiancee to drive it properly until the engine is up to temperature or not drive it at all!  :confused: :confused:

You dont have a fiancee do you?    You know how i know this?

 :signLOL:  :grin: I believe you are right richwig83  :signLOL:
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: xjay1337 on June 02, 2013, 05:52:16 pm
I'd simply tell your fiancee to drive it properly until the engine is up to temperature or not drive it at all!  :confused: :confused:

You dont have a fiancee do you?    You know how i know this?

Hahahhahahaa.
True though.
 :evilgrin:
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: john a on June 02, 2013, 07:45:52 pm
I believe that i got my APR map they stated that you were restricted until the oil was up to temp.  :confused:
Not sure if it's true or not  :smiley:

Almost entirely unlikely
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: GrayMK5GTI on June 02, 2013, 08:14:52 pm
Recon R-Tech could do it  :happy2:
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: rich83 on June 03, 2013, 12:16:50 am
I cant see it being possible... but if anyone knows it will be nik.
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: PDT on June 03, 2013, 12:36:45 pm
We include this on our BMW maps (135i - 335i - 335d) maps as standard, Most Bosch ECU's do have the capability of boost vs oil temp so cant see any reason why ME9 cant utilise this option.
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: mk4gti-t on June 03, 2013, 02:28:19 pm
Please excuse my ignorance but what is 'valet mode' and how do you set it?
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: danishmkvgti on June 03, 2013, 03:22:30 pm
Please excuse my ignorance but what is 'valet mode' and how do you set it?
A Valet is a guy that drives the car from the front entrance of posh places to the parking lot and returns it when you are ready to leave, as many of us wouldn't like that they give it the full beans to and from, the car can be limited in performance to app. 80km/h  :happy2:
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: SRC on June 03, 2013, 06:13:20 pm

A Valet is a guy that drives the car from the front entrance of posh places to the parking lot and returns it when you are ready to leave, as many of us wouldn't like that they give it the full beans to and from, the car can be limited in performance to app. 80km/h  :happy2:

Tell me more - how?  And can I call it wife mode?
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: danishmkvgti on June 03, 2013, 06:26:56 pm

A Valet is a guy that drives the car from the front entrance of posh places to the parking lot and returns it when you are ready to leave, as many of us wouldn't like that they give it the full beans to and from, the car can be limited in performance to app. 80km/h  :happy2:

Tell me more - how?  And can I call it wife mode?

Both REVO and APR has it
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: james on June 04, 2013, 01:44:30 am
I am 100% sure my r-tech map was limited until the oil was hot.
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: AndrewJB on June 04, 2013, 02:53:39 am
i think my Leon Cupra R (CDLA Engine) has this as standard


for first 3-4 minutes it wont boost at all even a slight amount and then it wakes up
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: R-tech-Nick on June 04, 2013, 08:20:23 am
All our high power maps for 1.8t and tfsi limit the power when engine temp/ oil if cold.  Car feels flat as a fart for first 6-7mins of driving from cold.
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: Jussa on June 04, 2013, 09:50:23 am
I've been told you should wait for the oil temp to reach 76 before going over 3000rpm - this normally takes 9-10 minutes as I always do it - is this not correct??
If it isn't, please give me the correct info.
To be honest I don't care whether a valet gives my car full beans as long as the oil temp is up there.
I can't understand how valet mode would work, unless it didn't allow you to rev over the 3K threshold??  :confused:
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: xjay1337 on June 04, 2013, 10:38:01 am
I would imagine a reduction in fuel and boost until oil temperature equals a certain value.
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: Rob. on June 04, 2013, 11:05:21 am
All our high power maps for 1.8t and tfsi limit the power when engine temp/ oil if cold.  Car feels flat as a fart for first 6-7mins of driving from cold.

That's pretty smart :) A mate took me out in his Clio Sport and pointed out that it does similar...just as we failed to overtake an artic on a dual carriageway  :jumping:
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: GrayMK5GTI on June 04, 2013, 10:03:26 pm
I've been told you should wait for the oil temp to reach 76 before going over 3000rpm - this normally takes 9-10 minutes as I always do it - is this not correct??
If it isn't, please give me the correct info.
To be honest I don't care whether a valet gives my car full beans as long as the oil temp is up there.
I can't understand how valet mode would work, unless it didn't allow you to rev over the 3K threshold??  :confused:

I was told it was load rather than revs that damage a cold engine, so a light throttle and 3000rpm should be fine, WOT up to 3000revs is what does the damage for example
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: rich83 on June 04, 2013, 10:04:54 pm
In fact.... Supper-Chips do "Retard" mapping... but Im not sure its on purpose....   :star:
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: Markyed30 on June 04, 2013, 10:10:15 pm
314bhp out of a stage 1 ed30 map is hardly retarded  :congrats:
Reminds me of a big fall out I had with ex mrs years ago had a chaved up brand new Clio 1.2 16v and she took it on the long drag in front of my bedroom window at time hitting limiter in 3rd then dropping it in to 2nd can laugh now lol !!
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: rich83 on June 04, 2013, 10:11:25 pm
314bhp out of a stage 1 ed30 map is hardly retarded  :congrats:
Reminds me of a big fall out I had with ex mrs years ago had a chaved up brand new Clio 1.2 16v and she took it on the long drag in front of my bedroom window at time hitting limiter in 3rd then dropping it in to 2nd can laugh now lol !!

314bhp??.. superchips stage 1??  Not in anyones lifetime mate...
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?p
Post by: vRS Carl on June 04, 2013, 10:13:45 pm
In fact.... Supper-Chips do "Retard" mapping... but Im not sure its on purpose....   :star:

 :grin:

When I had APR on my car it certainly wasn't limited in anyway shape or form in terms of boost. You could boot it from cold if you wished. :confused:

I'm not saying anyone is lying here as i'm sure some geek could do it. But how do you impress a customer, especially when they do trial maps, after his/her car has been flashed. I've never heard anyone say "had my map flashed today and after I had took it on a 10 minute warm up I gave it  :driver: and it was mega :happy2:"
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: Hedge on June 04, 2013, 10:14:43 pm
314bhp out of a stage 1 ed30 map is hardly retarded  :congrats:
Reminds me of a big fall out I had with ex mrs years ago had a chaved up brand new Clio 1.2 16v and she took it on the long drag in front of my bedroom window at time hitting limiter in 3rd then dropping it in to 2nd can laugh now lol !!

314bhp??.. superchips stage 1??  Not in anyones lifetime mate...

I did. @ Supperchips.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: vRS Carl on June 04, 2013, 10:15:30 pm
314bhp out of a stage 1 ed30 map is hardly retarded  :congrats:
Reminds me of a big fall out I had with ex mrs years ago had a chaved up brand new Clio 1.2 16v and she took it on the long drag in front of my bedroom window at time hitting limiter in 3rd then dropping it in to 2nd can laugh now lol !!

314bhp??.. superchips stage 1??  Not in anyones lifetime mate...

I did. @ Supperchips.  :laugh:

Didn't you have "land of make believe" playing on the stereo though?  :evilgrin:
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: Markyed30 on June 04, 2013, 10:17:22 pm
Fact was it was at an apr dealers and they were shocked going to another rr soon so soon c :fighting:
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: rich83 on June 04, 2013, 10:17:35 pm
314bhp out of a stage 1 ed30 map is hardly retarded  :congrats:
Reminds me of a big fall out I had with ex mrs years ago had a chaved up brand new Clio 1.2 16v and she took it on the long drag in front of my bedroom window at time hitting limiter in 3rd then dropping it in to 2nd can laugh now lol !!

314bhp??.. superchips stage 1??  Not in anyones lifetime mate...

I did. @ Supperchips.  :laugh:

Didn't you have "land of make believe" playing on the stereo though?  :evilgrin:

Think he was playing this actually...

Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: Markyed30 on June 04, 2013, 10:21:33 pm
sh*t tune like iv said 20 times cars made expected figures someone from this forum was there ill post 2nd rr results up hopefully there 270 bho like use would expect  :popcornsoda:
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: SRC on June 05, 2013, 09:12:39 pm
sh*t tune like iv said 20 times cars made expected figures someone from this forum was there ill post 2nd rr results up hopefully there 270 bho like use would expect  :popcornsoda:

I'm sorry, but I'm English.  Can anyone translate?
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: GrayMK5GTI on June 06, 2013, 05:38:53 pm
sh*t tune like iv said 20 times cars made expected figures someone from this forum was there ill post 2nd rr results up hopefully there 270 bho like use would expect  :popcornsoda:

You will learn several things on this forum:

1) dynodynamics dyno's are the only figures that people will take as remotely accurate (JKM's being the MOST).
2) dyno figures should always be taken with a pinch of salt
3) Hedge will inevitably post a picture of a sad cat.  :grin:

Have you seen Saint Steves review of superchips vs R-Tech? The superchips map was asking a ridiculous amount from the turbo and inevitably putting the hardware under undue stress  :surprised:

He got a smoother map with a lot less asked of the hardware.

See here, enough to put me off Superchips: http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,65077.0.html
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: vRS Carl on June 07, 2013, 12:45:41 pm
sh*t tune like iv said 20 times cars made expected figures someone from this forum was there ill post 2nd rr results up hopefully there 270 bho like use would expect  :popcornsoda:

You will learn several things on this forum:

1) dynodynamics dyno's are the only figures that people will take as remotely accurate (JKM's being the MOST).
2) dyno figures should always be taken with a pinch of salt
3) Hedge will inevitably post a picture of a sad cat.  :grin:

Have you seen Saint Steves review of superchips vs R-Tech? The superchips map was asking a ridiculous amount from the turbo and inevitably putting the hardware under undue stress  :surprised:

He got a smoother map with a lot less asked of the hardware.

See here, enough to put me off Superchips: http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,65077.0.html

However before said R-Tech magic dust was applied, Supperchips was the best thing since sliced bread!! :grin: :evilgrin:
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: xjay1337 on June 07, 2013, 02:49:49 pm
Anyone who knows cars wouldn't touch a Superchips or any other flash map with a bargepole!  :evilgrin:
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: rich83 on June 10, 2013, 05:19:47 pm
Anyone who knows cars wouldn't touch a Superchips or any other flash map with a bargepole!  :evilgrin:

Revo is a flash map or sorts
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: GrayMK5GTI on June 11, 2013, 04:08:03 pm
Anyone who knows cars wouldn't touch a Superchips or any other flash map with a bargepole!  :evilgrin:

Wigit, Hedge and the other Revo fanboy's won't like that  :wink:
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: vRS Carl on June 12, 2013, 12:17:49 pm
Anyone who knows cars wouldn't touch a Superchips or any other flash map with a bargepole!  :evilgrin:

Wigit, Hedge and the other Revo fanboy's won't like that  :wink:

Knowing both Ian & Andy I can safely say they are no fanboys! Do you class anyone with Revo as a fanboy?

I tried Revo on my last vRS, had an issue with them which wasn't resolved to my satisfaction. So I went with APR when I got my new vRS. Had an issue with their map which again wasn't resolved to my satisfaction so I'm now back with Revo. So does that make me a fanboy?
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: Janner_Sy on June 12, 2013, 12:42:46 pm
So does that make me a fanboy?
:grin: :grin:
- REVO - REVO - REVO - REVO
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.ebaumsworld.com%2Fpicture%2Fjinco1%2FFanboy.png&hash=aa92ffa501f3a9d8e286630108533643bb3db72e)
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: Hedge on June 12, 2013, 12:46:32 pm
Anyone who knows cars wouldn't touch a Superchips or any other flash map with a bargepole!  :evilgrin:

Wigit, Hedge and the other Revo fanboy's won't like that  :wink:

Revo fanboy.  :signLOL:

Only a fanboy if buying the right product for my car makes me one. Anyway I don't actually remember spamming anyones "Which remap" thread with pro anyones product bullsh*t.

Oh and not to disappoint.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsteveire.files.wordpress.com%2F2010%2F03%2Fcat_impress.jpg&hash=4e4633cf72cf4bc3fe5125537009769284f86925)
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: Janner_Sy on June 12, 2013, 01:02:29 pm
Anyone who knows cars wouldn't touch a Superchips or any other flash map with a bargepole!  :evilgrin:


On another hand.  How many cars do you think the likes of REVO or APR (who are basically flash maps as graymk5GTI said above) have installed for the 2.0TFSI worldwide?  HOw much R&D do you think REVO and APR have put in worldwide in countries with different fuel grades, altitudes, climatic conditions etc, how much more likely are the likes of REVO and APR to experience tuning issues (considering the sheer volume of maps they sell worldwide) as such have experience and undertstanding of the solutions, how many years have REVO and APR been mapping the 2.0TFSI? HOw many cars have REVO & APR tuned successfully for use in the many racing series available as a result of all that, how much extra do you think they understand the 2.0TFSI and ECU etc.

Then compare it to a small garage, such as R-TECH and many other small tuners, and ask the same questions as above?  I remember reading the other day in a post on here, that R-TECH said they cant wait to finally tune a big turbo setup on a 2.0TFSI!!  

Just because its a flash map, albeit an adjustable flash map,it doesnt mean that there hasnt been hundreds of hours, 1000s of miles of R&D.  I for one like what R-TECH is doing at the moment, but is it much better than an APR or REVO map....probably not.  six and two threes comes to mind.
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: xjay1337 on June 12, 2013, 04:58:29 pm
But it is better than a Revo map...
R-tech are hardly an emerging brand in the UK, they are very well known within the VAG community. Just as much so as Revo, to the "enthusiasts" at least.

Size of brand or number of people who use a certain product is not an indication of their quality.
Rtech don't advertise much, if at all.  I've never actually seen an advert for R-tech on a website. But you see loads for Revo/AmD/APR.

Nick at Rtech is very very very knowledgeable. Not saying that the chief mappers at Revo aren't but you don't get them mapping your car, you get a map they wrote on ANOTHER car put onto yours, which may be slightly different.

Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: Janner_Sy on June 12, 2013, 05:12:02 pm
But it is better than a Revo map...

On what basis though? You must have first hand experience of having both?

R-tech are hardly an emerging brand in the UK, they are very well known within the VAG community. Just as much so as Revo, to the "enthusiasts" at least.

They might well be well known in the VAG scene but that is predominantly with the 1.8T which is vastly different to the 2.0TFSI and they are new with the 2.0TFSI in comparison.  Hence all this very recent R&D done on James K04 and posting about how they cant wait to start working on a BT 2.0TFSI setup.   I asked about getting my twincharger mapped there and they werent interested in developing software for a couple more years. So, say they decide next month that they are going to start 1.4TSI R&D, does the fact that they are well renowned in the VAG scene make up for the 3-4 years of extra R&D and tuning experience these "flash tuners" have on the 1.4TSI....no it doesnt.

Nick at Rtech is very very very knowledgeable. Not saying that the chief mappers at Revo aren't but you don't get them mapping your car, you get a map they wrote on ANOTHER car put onto yours, which may be slightly different.

That he might be, but also bear in mind, he doesn't write software from the ground up on every custom map he does as he himself has even pointed this out in several posts on here.  He has developed a solid base map(developed on ANOTHER car) which he will upload and then customize from there.  This is no different really to a REVO maps being applied to the car and the likes of JKM, PDT etc then adjusting the settings and logs to suit the car and mods.
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: GrayMK5GTI on June 12, 2013, 07:39:54 pm
But it is better than a Revo map...

On what basis though? You must have first hand experience of having both?

R-tech are hardly an emerging brand in the UK, they are very well known within the VAG community. Just as much so as Revo, to the "enthusiasts" at least.

They might well be well known in the VAG scene but that is predominantly with the 1.8T which is vastly different to the 2.0TFSI and they are new with the 2.0TFSI in comparison.  Hence all this very recent R&D done on James K04 and posting about how they cant wait to start working on a BT 2.0TFSI setup.   I asked about getting my twincharger mapped there and they werent interested in developing software for a couple more years. So, say they decide next month that they are going to start 1.4TSI R&D, does the fact that they are well renowned in the VAG scene make up for the 3-4 years of extra R&D and tuning experience thes e "flash tuners" have on the 1.4TSI....no it doesnt.

Nick at Rtech is very very very knowledgeable. Not saying that the chief mappers at Revo aren't but you don't get them mapping your car, you get a map they wrote on ANOTHER car put onto yours, which may be slightly different.

That he might be, but also bear in mind, he doesn't write software from the ground up on every custom map he does as he himself has even pointed this out in several posts on here.  He has developed a solid base map(developed on ANOTHER car) which he will upload and then customize from there.  This is no different really to a REVO maps being applied to the car and the likes of JKM, PDT etc then adjusting the settings and logs to suit the car and mods.

Wow this thread took off  :jumping:

The difference between Revo & R-Tech is that with Revo you adjust 3 parameters across the whole rev range nick can fine tune each individual aspect of the map at any given point. For example, if there is a flat spot at 5200rpm (say a fuel cut type thing) nick can alter that specific rev band to correct. With Revo you would have to alter whatever factor (of the 3 you can adjust)that is causing the problem over the whole rev range, which means there is always a compromise. You can't adjust how or where in the rev range the turbo spools etc either. I could go on . . .

Your absolutely right, it's a base map fine tuned to the specific hardware of your car and how you want to drive it. No compromises.

You could take a graph of a Revo car to Nick and ask him to recreate that on your car if you so wanted. . .  :grin:

I'm not trying to spam the thread or sell a product here. I just don't get the impression that people "get" what R-Tech are about  

At the end of the day, you get the same(ish) peak figure from either Revo, APR, R-Tech, PDT etc. How much you want to pay for that increase is up to the individual  :smiley:

I get what you mean about Revo mapping thousands of cars etc but in reality they have "tuned" one car and their dealer network has uploaded that map onto thousands of cars. Not the same as fine tuning lots of cars in front of you, each with individual running issues etc. Nick is always learning new techniques and ways to get more out of VAG engines (TIV mapping for example) so you could say his R&D never stops. . .

Just to be clear I'm not against any of the big brands at all (will be going somewhere different for the Scirocco - wouldn't rule out Revo  :wink:)

I just like the FACTS to be right on here, that's all. Not selling anything or criticising anyone's products  :drinking:

@Hedge - took you long enough to bite  :P

Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: vRS Carl on June 12, 2013, 07:49:23 pm
I think someone is telling porkies here. I do not believe for one minute that R-Tech map EVERY single car differently.  :chicken:

They will do EXACTLY what Revo do. I.E take the car, apply map, drive the car and alter the boost timing and fuelling to suit the car so it's running safe.

I seriously doubt Nick/R-Tech has the time to do what you are saying. Maybe on a select few cars they have sat on a Dyno and done what you say. But I think it would be a handful at most.

What you are saying they are doing would take a couple of days worth of mapping, data logging and fine tuning. From what I gather from people's posts they get the car back after a couple of hours at most. Hardly a "Custom" map. I've still yet to have someone convince me that a car can be set up on the rolling road better than the actual road. If that was the case then no Motorsport team or car manufacturer would do on road testing or drive the ring etc. it would all be done on a Dyno.

Each to there own and all that but I think some common sense needs to be applied.
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: GrayMK5GTI on June 12, 2013, 07:56:19 pm
I think someone is telling porkies here. I do not believe for one minute that R-Tech map EVERY single car differently.  :chicken:

They will do EXACTLY what Revo do. I.E take the car, apply map, drive the car and alter the boost timing and fuelling to suit the car so it's running safe.

I seriously doubt Nick/R-Tech has the time to do what you are saying. Maybe on a select few cars they have sat on a Dyno and done what you say. But I think it would be a handful at most.

What you are saying they are doing would take a couple of days worth of mapping, data logging and fine tuning. From what I gather from people's posts they get the car back after a couple of hours at most. Hardly a "Custom" map. I've still yet to have someone convince me that a car can be set up on the rolling road better than the actual road. If that was the case then no Motorsport team or car manufacturer would do on road testing or drive the ring etc. it would all be done on a Dyno.

Each to there own and all that but I think some common sense needs to be applied.

Custom as in fine tuned to the specific hardware of the car (repeating myself again  :sad1:) not adjusting boost, timing and fuel across the whole rev range by a single setting. . .

I was there for 2.5hrs when my GTI was getting the stage 1 treatment. Nick was forever tweaking things and dynoing again until it was right. depends on what extent of tune your going for, as said above a base map is applied then fine tuned til it's perfect. You tweak all the factors where needed until everything is sweet.

James's was on the dyno for 2 days solid and ED30Dom's will be on for a similar amount of time.

Nick always shows you what he is doing for example when he's adjusting the actuator to change the spool of the turbo it's all there on the PC in front of you

Take it you haven't read Saint Steves review, that sums the whole process up brilliantly.

Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: vRS Carl on June 12, 2013, 07:59:48 pm
As I said earlier, Steve thought supperchips was comparable to Revo.  :grin:

Now all of a sudden due to some mystic forces R-Tech is the map of the millennium.

I went to Revo HQ and they had my car for about 90mins when they mapped it. Doesn't mean all of a sudden it's a bespoke custom map for my car.  :confused:
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: xjay1337 on June 12, 2013, 08:38:27 pm
But it is better than a Revo map...

On what basis though? You must have first hand experience of having both?

No. I've seen dyno charts. I've had my TFSI like 3 weeks. Prior to that I had a diesel which originally was breathed on by Rtech, and they were the only company after spending 20 minutes researching, who were worth visiting.

R-tech are hardly an emerging brand in the UK, they are very well known within the VAG community. Just as much so as Revo, to the "enthusiasts" at least.

They might well be well known in the VAG scene but that is predominantly with the 1.8T which is vastly different to the 2.0TFSI and they are new with the 2.0TFSI in comparison.  Hence all this very recent R&D done on James K04 and posting about how they cant wait to start working on a BT 2.0TFSI setup.   I asked about getting my twincharger mapped there and they werent interested in developing software for a couple more years. So, say they decide next month that they are going to start 1.4TSI R&D, does the fact that they are well renowned in the VAG scene make up for the 3-4 years of extra R&D and tuning experience thes e "flash tuners" have on the 1.4TSI....no it doesnt.

They are doing a lot of work on the 1.8Ts, because they have been around for a lot, lot longer. What's wrong with research and development? I've not read the posts but who really cares - they are developing things in the right way. Always on the safe side.. and then when they know the limits, they push the boundaries.

As I said previously, I had a TDI which originally had an R-tech map. After a while, I stuck some larger injectors in and called up R-Tech if they could tweak my map for me. They said no - And explained why, that it would take him a whole day to just understand how the injectors work with that engine and that turbo, and then the usual mapping time on top of it - making it expensive, which I can completely understand.
Instead I went to somewhere (not a Revo etc) else who, frankly, did a mediocore job. Why work on something you don't fully understand, or that would be cost-prohibitive to the customer.

For a tuner to turn away work for a valid reason, that takes integrity.
And at the end of the day this is a predominantly 2.0 TFSI forum - not a twincharger set up.. Besides, the 1.4's are so flimsy they generally break a supercharger before you even get a chance to map them unfortunately.  :confused: :confused:

Rtech are well known BECAUSE of their work. It sells itself.  You go trawling the web, you'll only ever find good reviews.You think that Revo continually develop every map they have? They did it once and then they flash it onto every car.

Nick at Rtech is very very very knowledgeable. Not saying that the chief mappers at Revo aren't but you don't get them mapping your car, you get a map they wrote on ANOTHER car put onto yours, which may be slightly different.

That he might be, but also bear in mind, he doesn't write software from the ground up on every custom map he does as he himself has even pointed this out in several posts on here.  He has developed a solid base map(developed on ANOTHER car) which he will upload and then customize from there.  This is no different really to a REVO maps being applied to the car and the likes of JKM, PDT etc then adjusting the settings and logs to suit the car and mods.

He's admitted it - So that's honesty? And you're trying to use that against him? They are completely different to Revo maps, in terms of, the checks before hand, the fact he only does it with dyno to test things, has the correct logging parameters.
I've seen Revo flash mapping cars at events for £300 (special show prices!!!  :surprised:) with no dyno, no checks, nothing. Just a flash and forget. WHICH IS WHAT THEY ARE. And that is NOT what R-tech are.

I don't understand why you'd pay MORE for a map which is less good quality. R-tech are amongst the cheapest and you will get the best maps and the best aftercare in the game.

The quality of which is debatable but I am not getting into that argument as we will just disagree ;)
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: Janner_Sy on June 12, 2013, 08:48:25 pm
But it is better than a Revo map...

On what basis though? You must have first hand experience of having both?

No. I've seen dyno charts. I've had my TFSI like 3 weeks. Prior to that I had a diesel which originally was breathed on by Rtech, and they were the only company after spending 20 minutes researching, who were worth visiting.
In that case, i guess we all bow down to your infinite experience of the 2.0TFSI  :confused:
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: rich83 on June 12, 2013, 08:58:35 pm
Well to be fair.... if you get a REVO map on offer at a trade stand then thats what you are getting. (they will just load it with "safe" settings)

If you pay a trip to Daventry REVO HQ then every car is logged and tested and adjusted accordingly

REVO is not an inferior product... lets just settle that one shall we.  :happy2:
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: Janner_Sy on June 12, 2013, 09:01:59 pm
For a tuner to turn away work for a valid reason, that takes integrity.
And at the end of the day this is a predominantly 2.0 TFSI forum - not a twincharger set up.. Besides, the 1.4's are so flimsy they generally break a supercharger before you even get a chance to map them unfortunately.  :confused: :confused:  

err no they dont, thats utter rubbish, not on the 180ps version anyway.  Ive never heard or read of a single supercharger failure on either SCN, VAGOC or briskoda.  Mines happily soaking up stage 3 power.

FWIW, i might have a 1.4TSI now, but before i had a 2.0TFSI.  From what ive read of your replies, this is acting like the stereo typical fanboy.  You have no experience of having either REVO or RTECH on a 2.0TFSI yet you seem to be able to say one is crap and one is awesome.  

also just to add, ive never had REVO on my car either, i chose other companies for all my cars, but I have driven many REVO 2.0TFSI from stage 1 to stage 3 and i know its not a generic setup.  They ahvent lead the market for this many years with a generic product!!

What im trying to point out, is that you cant come out with those sort of statements without any technical back up or personal experience.  Looking at a dyno sheet doesnt tell you how a remap is actually performing with its power delivery.  On another note, which tuners are the fastest on the 30-130 or the 1/4 mile...theres proof there
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: vRS Carl on June 12, 2013, 09:04:31 pm
I think someone is telling porkies here. I do not believe for one minute that R-Tech map EVERY single car differently.  :chicken:

They will do EXACTLY what Revo do. I.E take the car, apply map, drive the car and alter the boost timing and fuelling to suit the car so it's running safe.

I seriously doubt Nick/R-Tech has the time to do what you are saying. Maybe on a select few cars they have sat on a Dyno and done what you say. But I think it would be a handful at most.

What you are saying they are doing would take a couple of days worth of mapping, data logging and fine tuning. From what I gather from people's posts they get the car back after a couple of hours at most. Hardly a "Custom" map. I've still yet to have someone convince me that a car can be set up on the rolling road better than the actual road. If that was the case then no Motorsport team or car manufacturer would do on road testing or drive the ring etc. it would all be done on a Dyno.

Each to there own and all that but I think some common sense needs to be applied.

Custom as in fine tuned to the specific hardware of the car (repeating myself again  :sad1:) not adjusting boost, timing and fuel across the whole rev range by a single setting. . .

I was there for 2.5hrs when my GTI was getting the stage 1 treatment. Nick was forever tweaking things and dynoing again until it was right. depends on what extent of tune your going for, as said above a base map is applied then fine tuned til it's perfect. You tweak all the factors where needed until everything is sweet.

James's was on the dyno for 2 days solid and ED30Dom's will be on for a similar amount of time.

Nick always shows you what he is doing for example when he's adjusting the actuator to change the spool of the turbo it's all there on the PC in front of you

Take it you haven't read Saint Steves review, that sums the whole process up brilliantly.



Revo don't adjust one setting. The boost timing and fuelling go from 1 - 9 so that's 729 possible combinations for a start. Yes it goes across the rev range but that's because they have done hours of R&D and testing on the car to form the base map. I would imagine Nick has the same thing with his map. He can adjust certain parameters within a certain range tolerance. I highly doubt he is rewriting the map code each time he tweaks a setting.

Anyway I can see this going on and on and we will never agree. As long as you're happy with your choice the that's all that matters. Most of us are happy with our maps and I don't ever try and force Revo or big them up. I didn't even mention anything much when I switched from APR to Revo.

If Nick wants to prove to me how good his map is then I'm happy for him to use my car on the proviso that if I'm not satisfied he puts/pays for Revo to be put back on.  :happy2:
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: GrayMK5GTI on June 12, 2013, 09:31:45 pm
For further clarity, and I hope this isn't what you were implying, but I'm not trying to "force" anything on anyone. Made clear in my above posts. Only trying to get the facts straight.

As said in one of my other posts TIV mapping gives complete control of the ECU so everything can be changed (basically an infinite amount of adjustments) there is no range tolerance (beyond the limits of the hardware)

No one is saying he re-writes the code each time. Again, I've said above that he loads a base map, the range of adjustability is greater (I'm no expert but the ECU in the mk5 has more than 9 different timing settings, for example). As I also said above, all tuners get roughly the same result so figures wise no one is better than the other in the pub bragging sense and ill happily admit that I'd probably be very happy with any reputable map on my car

One final thing worth mentioning is that you hear a lot of great feedback from R-tech customers because they are happy with the service and want to recommend it to others (more so on other forums where r-tech are thought even more of than on here). That speaks volumes.

Your right, we aren't going to agree on this and I'm a bit sick of repeating myself  :grin:
 :drinking:
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: xjay1337 on June 12, 2013, 10:08:50 pm
For a tuner to turn away work for a valid reason, that takes integrity.
And at the end of the day this is a predominantly 2.0 TFSI forum - not a twincharger set up.. Besides, the 1.4's are so flimsy they generally break a supercharger before you even get a chance to map them unfortunately.  :confused: :confused:  

err no they dont, thats utter rubbish, not on the 180ps version anyway.  Ive never heard or read of a single supercharger failure on either SCN, VAGOC or briskoda.  Mines happily soaking up stage 3 power.

FWIW, i might have a 1.4TSI now, but before i had a 2.0TFSI.  From what ive read of your replies, this is acting like the stereo typical fanboy.  You have no experience of having either REVO or RTECH on a 2.0TFSI yet you seem to be able to say one is crap and one is awesome.  

also just to add, ive never had REVO on my car either, i chose other companies for all my cars, but I have driven many REVO 2.0TFSI from stage 1 to stage 3 and i know its not a generic setup.  They ahvent lead the market for this many years with a generic product!!

What im trying to point out, is that you cant come out with those sort of statements without any technical back up or personal experience.  Looking at a dyno sheet doesnt tell you how a remap is actually performing with its power delivery.  On another note, which tuners are the fastest on the 30-130 or the 1/4 mile...theres proof there

Fanboy? Lol mate jog on. I read reviews from owners who have had Revo,Bluefin,Superchips etc, and then had an R-tech map, and various other peoples input, and then make a balanced decision on what I have seen.
Fanboy is blindly supporting them.
I support R-tech because of the quality of work, the willingness to give advice and the overall professionalism of the service they provide.
Plus I have dealy with them before.

I have not seen 30-130 but who really cares? Apart from Plonkas. You can make any car fast flat out, what about nice smooth power that builds with good mid range?
As for quarter miles as I found out at Santa Pod at Springfest, times can vary wildly depending on launch, wind, gearchanges, etc. It's an idea but arguing over a few tenths here and there doesn't really prove anything unless on the same track at the same time with both drivers getting good launches and gear changes.
A dyno chart is plenty enough to see how the power is delivered. As that's what its purpose is!

When you see a huge torque spike at 3000rpm followed by flat line, to the redline, that's not a good map.
It's all about "under the graph" area, increasing power and torque over the WHOLE rev-range not just mapping it with a huge spike in the power to make it feel super-duper fast and fry your clutch.

I would  have a Revo map on my car BUT
I wouldn't pay their extortionate prices. They are more expensive than R-techs custom maps and not tailored to your style of driving or exact car/exact mods.
I would only get one as part of the occasional £150 deal that comes up. And then after a few months I would still take it to R-tech.

The TIV mapping is just off the chain.

As said above, we are all going to argue if we carry on so I've said my piece and will leave it at that.
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: Hedge on June 12, 2013, 10:09:59 pm
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffunny-pictures-blog.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F01%2FMEME-Grumpy-cat_2.jpg&hash=04c716200a1f0a07bbedb9af379fd0aaf2e72c5c)
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: GrayMK5GTI on June 12, 2013, 10:30:32 pm
^ now that's one of your best Hedge  :happy2:
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: rich83 on June 12, 2013, 10:35:26 pm
For a tuner to turn away work for a valid reason, that takes integrity.
And at the end of the day this is a predominantly 2.0 TFSI forum - not a twincharger set up.. Besides, the 1.4's are so flimsy they generally break a supercharger before you even get a chance to map them unfortunately.  :confused: :confused:  

err no they dont, thats utter rubbish, not on the 180ps version anyway.  Ive never heard or read of a single supercharger failure on either SCN, VAGOC or briskoda.  Mines happily soaking up stage 3 power.

FWIW, i might have a 1.4TSI now, but before i had a 2.0TFSI.  From what ive read of your replies, this is acting like the stereo typical fanboy.  You have no experience of having either REVO or RTECH on a 2.0TFSI yet you seem to be able to say one is crap and one is awesome.  

also just to add, ive never had REVO on my car either, i chose other companies for all my cars, but I have driven many REVO 2.0TFSI from stage 1 to stage 3 and i know its not a generic setup.  They ahvent lead the market for this many years with a generic product!!

What im trying to point out, is that you cant come out with those sort of statements without any technical back up or personal experience.  Looking at a dyno sheet doesnt tell you how a remap is actually performing with its power delivery.  On another note, which tuners are the fastest on the 30-130 or the 1/4 mile...theres proof there

Fanboy? Lol mate jog on. I read reviews from owners who have had Revo,Bluefin,Superchips etc, and then had an R-tech map, and various other peoples input, and then make a balanced decision on what I have seen.
Fanboy is blindly supporting them.
I support R-tech because of the quality of work, the willingness to give advice and the overall professionalism of the service they provide.
Plus I have dealy with them before.

I have not seen 30-130 but who really cares? Apart from Plonkas. You can make any car fast flat out, what about nice smooth power that builds with good mid range?
As for quarter miles as I found out at Santa Pod at Springfest, times can vary wildly depending on launch, wind, gearchanges, etc. It's an idea but arguing over a few tenths here and there doesn't really prove anything unless on the same track at the same time with both drivers getting good launches and gear changes.
A dyno chart is plenty enough to see how the power is delivered. As that's what its purpose is!

When you see a huge torque spike at 3000rpm followed by flat line, to the redline, that's not a good map.
It's all about "under the graph" area, increasing power and torque over the WHOLE rev-range not just mapping it with a huge spike in the power to make it feel super-duper fast and fry your clutch.

I would  have a Revo map on my car BUT
I wouldn't pay their extortionate prices. They are more expensive than R-techs custom maps and not tailored to your style of driving or exact car/exact mods.
I would only get one as part of the occasional £150 deal that comes up. And then after a few months I would still take it to R-tech.

The TIV mapping is just off the chain.

As said above, we are all going to argue if we carry on so I've said my piece and will leave it at that.

Yes they are mate....  :happy2:
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: vRS Carl on June 12, 2013, 11:15:40 pm
What I am amazed at is how R-Tech can suddenly make all their customers experts in the field of tuning.  :grin:

But at the end of the day......

(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsongbytoad.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F09%2Fwho-cares.jpg&hash=33e0db6bc7dd68f2916f4ee0338a9802c7b01929)
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: GrayMK5GTI on June 13, 2013, 07:31:08 am
 :grin: all part of the service

That's what I mean when I say Nick shows you what he is doing. May suggest a lot of you Revo boys are "experts" of their products. . .

Wonder how many of the 700ish setting combinations are actually used. For example, b1,t9,f9  would that even work?? Can't see that being optimum on any setup. Recon it's about 8 commonly used settings. Do you use different combinations for different exhausts for example? Like  Milltek or BCS? Can't see the limited adjustability being able to cater for different flow characteristics of an exhaust. . . Anyway, neither of us see experts so the whole debate may be flawed  :laugh:

Anyway, I agree with the caption.

Come on Hedge throw us a "thanks" for this one  :party:
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: Saintsteve on June 13, 2013, 09:44:27 am
Just to add,  it took my car 6 hours of setting up at RTech. From old map removal to adjustments and tweeks with the new TiV map.

In that time I would say about an hour was spent  on Customer education lol.

Well worth the trip :-)

:grin: all part of the service

That's what I mean when I say Nick shows you what he is doing. May suggest a lot of you Revo boys are "experts" of their products. . .

Wonder how many of the 700ish setting combinations are actually used. For example, b1,t9,f9  would that even work?? Can't see that being optimum on any setup. Recon it's about 8 commonly used settings. Do you use different combinations for different exhausts for example? Like  Milltek or BCS? Can't see the limited adjustability being able to cater for different flow characteristics of an exhaust. . . Anyway, neither of us see experts so the whole debate may be flawed  :laugh:

Anyway, I agree with the caption.

Come on Hedge throw us a "thanks" for this one  :party:

 :signLOL:


Nicki doesn't roll cars out every couple of hours, He will book in no more then a couple cars a day, and will work till they are complete. No start/finish times at Rtech. The working day is done when no more can be done.

I've said enough of what I think of Nicki.

Several people have been since my review and not one has disagreed with anything I've posted. Nuff said.

Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: SRC on July 01, 2013, 08:18:15 pm
Does anyone know if its possible to map the car (revo/apr or other) so that it is impossible to drive the car hard when the oil isn't fully warmed up?

Reason is my fiancé is a bit of a girl racer and I'm pretty sure she gives the car full bore down a local dual carriage way on the way to work when she (occasionally and now rarely) borrows my car!

Cheers

Four pages later, it would appear the answer was "no".
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: Janner_Sy on July 01, 2013, 08:23:10 pm
Does anyone know if its possible to map the car (revo/apr or other) so that it is impossible to drive the car hard when the oil isn't fully warmed up?

Reason is my fiancé is a bit of a girl racer and I'm pretty sure she gives the car full bore down a local dual carriage way on the way to work when she (occasionally and now rarely) borrows my car!

Cheers

Four pages later, it would appear the answer was "no".

Would it?  Maybe read the thread again  :wink:

All our high power maps for 1.8t and tfsi limit the power when engine temp/ oil if cold.  Car feels flat as a fart for first 6-7mins of driving from cold.
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: GrayMK5GTI on July 01, 2013, 09:02:12 pm
Just to help him out:

http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,67586.msg739044.html#msg739044

 :happy2:
Title: Re: Custom "retard" mapping?
Post by: SRC on July 02, 2013, 06:33:53 pm
I stand corrected

Does anyone know if its possible to map the car (revo/apr or other) so that it is impossible to drive the car hard when the oil isn't fully warmed up?

Reason is my fiancé is a bit of a girl racer and I'm pretty sure she gives the car full bore down a local dual carriage way on the way to work when she (occasionally and now rarely) borrows my car!

Cheers
Four-and-a-half pages on, it appears the answer is "yes".

But I still lost the will to live.