MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Modifications & Technical Area => Technical Workshop => Topic started by: SyntaxTerror on June 27, 2013, 05:42:14 pm
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Hi All,
So, i'm trying to diagnose a little issue my ed30 seems to be having.
It's current setup:
VWR Intake
APR Stage 1
NGK Iridium plugs (fresh-ish)
Recently replaced (last week, with latest rev)
PCV
DV
I also cleaned the MAF sensor (based on some random thread reading).
The car was fine after running adaption and clearing the below code, but within a couple of days i will get some slight roughness/wobble in low revs, and this little monkey in the logs again:
1 Fault Found:
008567 - Bank 1; System Too Lean off Idle
P2177 - 001 -
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 01100001
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 5
Mileage: 77715 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2000.00.00
Time: 19:32:42
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 3103 /min
Load: 10.6 %
Speed: 58.0 km/h
Temperature: 79.0°C
Temperature: 38.0°C
Absolute Pres.: 1020.0 mbar
Voltage: 14.097 V
It appears to be getting more frequent too, this log was taken over 2 days. It always seems to be triggered at around the 3k rpm mark. After this happens, my MPG drops by about 3-5mpg on average.
What should i be testing for to diagnose this issue? I have VAG-COM so can log anything that may help.
Thanks gents!
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Run it standard with the remap off as it could be a written fault with the software. I had this problem and was told it was the remap causing it.
Have you checked your fuel trims?
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APR stage 1 steve :grin:
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APR stage 1 steve :grin:
Beat ya :P lol
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Thanks guys,
I had this problem and was told it was the remap causing it.
Have you checked your fuel trims?
I'll check the fuel trims at lunch, what did you do to solve it? Has anyone contacted APR for response on this?
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I also had a dodgy remap with the same fault! Changed to revo all sorted now 8)
Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2
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Thanks guys,
I had this problem and was told it was the remap causing it.
Have you checked your fuel trims?
I'll check the fuel trims at lunch, what did you do to solve it? Has anyone contacted APR for response on this?
I had a Rtech TIV remap installed and fault is now History.. Just for info, old map was Superchips
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Thanks for the info you lot.
I checked the fuel trims, it's running at 18% self-adaption, which is damn high from the info i've read on this topic:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F9BHmWEK.png&hash=dcd6eeace57a912805e2710fd573bb96780cd4ce)
Well, this is a shame. I've been pretty happy with the APR remap so far. Anyone had the same problem on the APR stg1 map? Is there anything i can do? I'd rather not have to pay for another re-map, instead perhaps go with an additional upgrade that might make the APR software happier (e.g HPFP)
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Have you logged your fuel rail pressure and lambda?
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Thanks for the info you lot.
I checked the fuel trims, it's running at 18% self-adaption, which is damn high from the info i've read on this topic:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F9BHmWEK.png&hash=dcd6eeace57a912805e2710fd573bb96780cd4ce)
Well, this is a shame. I've been pretty happy with the APR remap so far. Anyone had the same problem on the APR stg1 map? Is there anything i can do? I'd rather not have to pay for another re-map, instead perhaps go with an additional upgrade that might make the APR software happier (e.g HPFP)
I agree that it's abit too high, I know from reading, that my forge twin take can make my fuel trims be anywhere from 5-15% correction, unsure what the VWR one would be, but would of thought as much as 10% .
As Basillus said, check your fuel rail pressure and lambda, I would look at live missfires on Blocks 15-16 as this can give you a higher fuel trim if you have one injector playing up.(idle speed slightly uneven or lumpy)
I recently had this and by replacing number 4 injector got my fuel trims down from 16% to 10%.
:drinking:
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Cheers guys,
I would look at live missfires on Blocks 15-16 as this can give you a higher fuel trim if you have one injector playing up.(idle speed slightly uneven or lumpy)
I recently had this and by replacing number 4 injector got my fuel trims down from 16% to 10%.
Will do! Correct me if i'm wrong, but i thought misfires would show up in the error logs?
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No , only until they reach a certain amount will it set off any errors after a scan
Log those blocks whilst idling and you will see if you have any cylinder or injector (s) playing up :happy2:
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Thanks guys,
I had this problem and was told it was the remap causing it.
Have you checked your fuel trims?
I'll check the fuel trims at lunch, what did you do to solve it? Has anyone contacted APR for response on this?
I had a Rtech TIVO remap installed and fault is now History.. Just for info, old map was Superchips
To everybody pointing at the remap as the source of the fault, thank you for the chuckle this morning :happy2:
So the OP had the software for a while without any issue, you act as if it magically changed over time to cause the fault. Common sense tells me it's probably not the remap. The internet, and some basic diagnostic understanding backs this up.
The fact is, there's most likely a hardware issue to fault. Have you taken this to a VAG technician for proper diagnosis?
Google helped me find: http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/18609/P2177/008567
Possible Causes
Fuel Pump (G6) faulty
Mass Air Flow (MAF) Sensor (G70) faulty
Intake System leaking
Exhaust System leaking
Possible Solutions
Check Mass Air Flow (MAF) Sensor (G70)
Check Fuel Pump (G6)
Check Fuel Injectors
Check Intake System
Check Exhaust System
There was a batch of VWR kits shipped with improperly shaped MAF sections that alter the MAF readings resulting in increased long term fuel trims being off, but never an MIL as reported. The owners have been systematically contacted by VWR for replacement, but some may have been missed. You can contact VWR directly to discuss this.
I would advise returning the airbox back to stock to see if this error continues first. Then go from there.
:wink:
Hope this helps!
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So it's VWR's fault now and not APR's? :signLOL:
Funny that I got the same response from Superchips.... :indifferent:
Sounds like the software doesn't like the other mods you put on your car. If the stock air box goes on that will cure his issue I'm sure, but does your software support having a different aftermarket CAI is what I would question.
These faults do take time to appear and may not light up the MIL light straight away.
Good luck Syntaxterror getting this fault found. :happy2:
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So it's VWR's fault now and not APR's? :signLOL:
Funny that I got the same response from Superchips.... :indifferent:
Sounds like the software doesn't like the other mods you put on your car. If the stock air box goes on that will cure his issue I'm sure, but does your software support having a different aftermarket CAI is what I would question.
These faults do take time to appear and may not light up the MIL light straight away.
Good luck Syntaxterror getting this fault found. :happy2:
Lol I guess you missed the part above the remark about the VWR fuel trims where I posted the actual diagnostic list from ross-tech?
This was never an APR fault, and I'm not positive it has anything to do with the induction kit. But it's a possibility for which I've provided a first step. :happy2:
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Fair do's fella for replying. :happy2:
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Thanks for the info gents, genuinely appreciate the input
Sorry for the late response, but i've had bigger problems :( - http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,69114.msg749844.html
When it rains, it pours! :(
I'll log the rail pressure and missfires when im back with VCDS on monday, i'll likely be taking the car back to Tuningwerkes who've been working on her so far.
Will keep this thread updated
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Thanks for the info gents, genuinely appreciate the input
Sorry for the late response, but i've had bigger problems :( - http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,69114.msg749844.html
When it rains, it pours! :(
I'll log the rail pressure and missfires when im back with VCDS on monday, i'll likely be taking the car back to Tuningwerkes who've been working on her so far.
Will keep this thread updated
Man that sucks! Sorry to hear SyntaxTerror :(
Please, before you log misfires or rail pressure, first have Tuningwerkes check the intake system for any leaks or put the stock airbox back on to remove the induction kit from the diagnostic equation! Doing so will be very helpful.
Looking forward to updates. Feel free to email me directly if you need any immediate assistance. elight@goapr.com
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Thanks Evan!
FYI there is no CEL being thrown, only intermittent logs, but i've definitely noticed the car being a LOT less responsive recently, with a little low end jitter.
I had a quick check over the intake today and, after removing it, found that the screw at the bottom of the cone cover was missing! A guy in hardware at work found me the same M5 size, so i've popped this in. Everything was then re-torqued.
However: To disassemble the intake i was reading the install guide ( http://www.goapr.co.uk/support/vwr/VWR%20Fitting%20Cold%20Air%20Intake%20TFSI.pdf ). It mentions to use a square bracket for the front mount on the MK5, but the squishy scoop style mount for the Golf R/ed35 etc. Mine's been installed with the scoop style mount! It says MK5's should use the square bracket mount. Despite this, i'm not sure this would cause the issue, the car was running great for a while with the scoop mount.
So, i just ran 3 quick 3rd gear runs logging Misfire Sum, Cyl 1- 4, Lambda Sensor, Fuel Pressure, Boost (actual and specified) and fuel rail pressure (actual and specified), and Engine Speed (thanks bacillus!)
Bad news:
There was a misfire reported in Cylinder 3 on the end of the second run.
Good news:
Boost pressure actual seems to follow specified closely, but not for values lower than 1090mbar, i guess this is normal? I seem to remember seeing similar before the APR software flash.
I don't know much about fuel rail pressure, any hints? Looks like actual follows specified reasonably closely.
Download the log here: https://gist.github.com/AnthonyMann/5961169/download
I'll be taking the car back to Tuningwerkes as soon as i can, it's not a short trek. Really appreciate the input you guys might have on the logs if you have a min. Any obvious issues and solutions?
Thanks again!
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It's unfortunate that your logging didn't include a rpm margin to help see what's going on. :ashamed:
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I included block 143; engine speed, its column 21 :happy2:
Not the correct block?
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I included block 143; engine speed, its column 21 :happy2:
Not the correct block?
My apologies, it is there! :ashamed:
Normally the rpm is in the first column when I log.
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My apologies, it is there! :ashamed:
Normally the rpm is in the first column when I log.
No worries, i'll make sure it's first next time :grin:
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Thanks Evan!
FYI there is no CEL being thrown, only intermittent logs, but i've definitely noticed the car being a LOT less responsive recently, with a little low end jitter.
I had a quick check over the intake today and, after removing it, found that the screw at the bottom of the cone cover was missing! A guy in hardware at work found me the same M5 size, so i've popped this in. Everything was then re-torqued.
However: To disassemble the intake i was reading the install guide ( http://www.goapr.co.uk/support/vwr/VWR%20Fitting%20Cold%20Air%20Intake%20TFSI.pdf ). It mentions to use a square bracket for the front mount on the MK5, but the squishy scoop style mount for the Golf R/ed35 etc. Mine's been installed with the scoop style mount! It says MK5's should use the square bracket mount. Despite this, i'm not sure this would cause the issue, the car was running great for a while with the scoop mount.
So, i just ran 3 quick 3rd gear runs logging Misfire Sum, Cyl 1- 4, Lambda Sensor, Fuel Pressure, Boost (actual and specified) and fuel rail pressure (actual and specified), and Engine Speed (thanks bacillus!)
Bad news:
There was a misfire reported in Cylinder 3 on the end of the second run.
Good news:
Boost pressure actual seems to follow specified closely, but not for values lower than 1090mbar, i guess this is normal? I seem to remember seeing similar before the APR software flash.
I don't know much about fuel rail pressure, any hints? Looks like actual follows specified reasonably closely.
Download the log here: https://gist.github.com/AnthonyMann/5961169/download
I'll be taking the car back to Tuningwerkes as soon as i can, it's not a short trek. Really appreciate the input you guys might have on the logs if you have a min. Any obvious issues and solutions?
Thanks again!
Yep! Boost pressure and rail pressure match up beautifully. Get it to Tuningwerkes so they can take a closer look--I suspect a intake or exhaust leak.
To your misfire (it only registered one on cylinders 1 and 4, and it looks like it's repeated in the log, but remember that's the misfire counter, so if more misses occurred, the number would have increased over time. The cause fo the misfire is probably related to engaging the clutch during an injection cycle. Extra fuel got by, and the mixture read a bit off causing the misfire. As you can see it's not prevalent and didn't happen during any of the other runs. I'm 99.999999% positive it had nothing to do with your lean fault or any "problem" with the fuel system.
Hope Reuben and the guys are able to take care of this quickly for you :)
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To your misfire (it only registered one on cylinders 1 and 4, and it looks like it's repeated in the log, but remember that's the misfire counter, so if more misses occurred, the number would have increased over time. The cause fo the misfire is probably related to engaging the clutch during an injection cycle. Extra fuel got by, and the mixture read a bit off causing the misfire. As you can see it's not prevalent and didn't happen during any of the other runs. I'm 99.999999% positive it had nothing to do with your lean fault or any "problem" with the fuel system.
Thanks Evan, appreciated.
Checked the logs again this morning and found the following, along with the familiar System To Lean off Idle log:
001089 - EVAP Emission Control Sys
P0441 - 002 - Incorrect Flow - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00100010
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 1
Mileage: 78439 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2000.00.00
Time: 10:47:17
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 836 /min
Load: 12.9 %
Speed: 0.0 km/h
Temperature: 79.0°C
Temperature: 45.0°C
Absolute Pres.: 1030.0 mbar
Voltage: 14.224 V
Readiness: 0000 0000
I checked the charcoal canister, but all seems to be fitting quite snugly. I'm booking her into Tuningwerkes again.
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Well, i've finally had the bodywork sorted, Tuningwerkes have had a look over her and found no intake or exhaust leaks.
They did find that the fuse-box needed replacing, which was done, but has made no difference. Reuben strongly suggested that the MAF is on it's way out, or there is something else suspect with the air system.
Well, last night i was doing some research into VWR intakes in relation to P2177, turns out there is a known fault with the MAF housing on the intake version i'm running which causes this exact code, and high adaption levels: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5920000-VWR-Intake-fuel-trims-UPDATE.
I've contacted APR for the replacement MAF housing, which will hopefully resolve the issue!
Fingers crossed
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There was a batch of VWR kits shipped with improperly shaped MAF sections that alter the MAF readings resulting in increased long term fuel trims being off, but never an MIL as reported. The owners have been systematically contacted by VWR for replacement, but some may have been missed. You can contact VWR directly to discuss this.
I would advise returning the airbox back to stock to see if this error continues first. Then go from there.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F31.media.tumblr.com%2Ffd0a10d065f120dc1a11223c9201872c%2Ftumblr_mgoq88NNDX1rhilero1_500.gif&hash=125d61b60c876a42e5e9a3cfd2a4e8f8175fe59c)
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Perfect Gif :laugh:
OEM airbox is next on the list, only just had the car back since the previous updates after having the bodywork issues resolved, which left us very little time for diagnostics.
Looks like I should have read your post more thoroughly :grin:
Thanks to APR and Evan for sorting out the replacement MAF housing!
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Realised i've not updated this thread since i received the new MAF housing yonks ago...
For anyone coming across this thread, the replacement MAF housing from VWR fixed the problem completely. Fuel trims now ~8%, and the little fluctuation i had on WOT is gone.
Thanks all :)