MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: Janner_Sy on August 16, 2009, 11:59:08 am
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spent the day at the ring yesterday and am really fed up with having to let the brakes cool down for about 40 minutes after each lap. The day hasd to be cut short, and even my wife commented on how crap the brakes wre becoming and how early i was having to brake.
So much so she gave me the green light to get new brakes, :surprised:
Im quite keen on getting the 345mm upgrade. but I want to know how they would cope on trackdays with repeated laps and heavy braking.
The setup I was looking at was 345mm upgrade, Std pads, braided hoses, motul brake fluid. How resistant are the std pads to brake fade??
Id love to put on ferrodo DS2500 pads but I cant seem to find a distributer for them though or any other performance pad for the R32 caliper.
there is also this option though R8 rear calipers with 345mm discs :drool: http://briskoda.net/shark-performance/briskoda-exclusive-audi-r8-big-brake-kits-under-1000-a/154227/
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Trial and review the R8 setup :drool: :drool: :drool:
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Im so tempted to as well.
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:mad: Dooooooooooooooooooooooo iiiiit :laugh: :pomppomp: :popcornsoda:
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Simon, look deep into my eyes :laugh: :drool: :laugh: :drool: :laugh: :drool: :laugh: :drool: :laugh:
You need those R8 brakes!
Repeat after me...."I need those R8 brakes, I need those R8 brakes, I need those R8 brakes"
:signLOL:
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i need those r8 brakes, i need those r8 brakes :rolleye:
Id bet they are impervious to any brake fade full stop. going to show the wife!!!!wish me luck, she was willing to accept the price of the r£2 upgrade, i now need to ok it for a little more
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I like the look of that R8 set up, but for repeated track work I'd want a 2 piece disc.
I'm fairly sure there's a similar size 2 piece rear disc off an RS6. Might be an option, I'm sure someone with a trade account could make that come in for similar money?
PM DaveB1970 - he knows everything there is to know about VAG fitments and crossovers, and can also machine custom carriers.
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Debit card is at the ready I can sense it !
You're obviouly going to put them to use! Dooooooooooooo iiiiit :notworthy: :notworthy:
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when i come back to UK, ill prob try to do 1 track day a month, so i reckon ill be able to justify them. Dunno about debit card, maybe credit card lol. im just getting ready to move back to UK so it'll be a month or two yet.
Two piece discs might be a little over kill i think, im only a lowly powered K03, plus they would be a lot more expensive to replace than an R32 disc
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when i come back to UK, ill prob try to do 1 track day a month, so i reckon ill be able to justify them. Dunno about debit card, maybe credit card lol. im just getting ready to move back to UK so it'll be a month or two yet.
Two piece discs might be a little over kill i think, im only a lowly powered K03KO4 upgrade cough, plus they would be a lot more expensive to replace than an R32 disc
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:signLOL: come on you could have done better than k04, should have read go bigger than k04 :signLOL:
k04 conversion gives our cars 309bhp, ours at stage 2+ give 280bhp, 320-340Ibft, so if i get some water meth id be looking at 300bhp for about 2000 pound less. dont think i can justify that cost for such small gain
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Disc cost depends on if you're replacing softer 1 piece discs twice as often - I think you'd need the right aftermarket version. The OEM ones don't have to be that expensive if you know someone in the parts trade.
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:signLOL: come on you could have done better than k04, :signLOL:
k04 conversion gives our cars 309bhp, ours at stage 2+ give 280bhp, 320-340Ibft, so if i get some water meth id be looking at 300bhp for about 2000 pound less. dont think i can justify that cost for such small gain
I have to start small to get you thinking. Then BANG hit you with the GT30 bomb
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Disc cost depends on if you're replacing softer 1 piece discs twice as often - I think you'd need the right aftermarket version. The OEM ones don't have to be that expensive if you know someone in the parts trade.
true but surley it wouldnt eat discs that quickly. ill have a look ito this i think. Have you any idea of the size on this, and the calipers that would be used
you guys are really bad by the way, i started by asking about r32 brakes, now im looking into RS6 discs, whats next then ill be on 356mm brembos the way this is going
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Same calipers no doubt, although I know Dave knows the cheaper Porsche options, usually Boxter 4 pots (cheaper because you'll find them 2nd hand to refurb).
Discs will be an Audi RS rear of some description, around 335-345mm. I bet you could save yourself £300 on that kit by a bit of research and speaking to Dave. Put that to the next set of discs.
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im interested in everything as long as we stay below the £1000 region
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if u do regular track days...the R32 set up will not do.
normal daily driving and "occasional" track day it will cope and is very good VFM.
It certainly didn't cope as well as i hoped on my last outing (2 track days in 3 weeks)
Next car will have multi piston calipers and mahoosive 2 piece discs.
As they say, you gotta pay if you want to play. :happy2:
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^^ i agree, my last car had a very simillar set up to the r32 and it wasnt all that imo, a nice 4 pot AP setup would be good or the R8 stuff :jumping:
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....
I would seriously consider the AP Racing BBK - They fit both 18's and 17's (just!) Monza's and are very well proven. Cost you about £1,800 and not overkill. You don't need more than 4-pot and fronts only for the Mk5 GTI (advice straight from the Senior Race Engineer at AP) unless you are building a full-on competition race car.
I think you're right about staying away from a K04 conversion - That really is a slippery slope! Better to spend money on improved handling. IMO of course.
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I fully agree with you there robin. I think with the meth injection i can achieve very close to 300bhp without going k04. Handling is where its needed.
Theres no way i can stretch out £1800 for a set of brembos though, as nice as they may be. The r8 calipers are 4 pot so should do the job.
question for chungster and 182_blue
what was wrong with the setup on the track, fade, or just not enough stopping power.
Also what is the benefit of two piece discs. is it being lightweight, or cooling quicker??
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I fully agree with you there robin. I think with the meth injection i can achieve very close to 300bhp without going k04. Handling is where its needed.
Theres no way i can stretch out £1800 for a set of brembos though, as nice as they may be. The r8 calipers are 4 pot so should do the job.
question for chungster and 182_blue
what was wrong with the setup on the track, fade, or just not enough stopping power.
Also what is the benefit of two piece discs. is it being lightweight, or cooling quicker??
for me it just didnt stop me in time, and they are easily cooked, theres only one piston on them so i just dont think they are up to alots of abuse
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for me it just didnt stop me in time, and they are easily cooked, theres only one piston on them so i just dont think they are up to alots of abuse
would track spec pads and braided hoses have fixed that maybe.
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i was running oem pads and fluid. they just get hot, simple. ABS starts to kick in. Pedals goes softer, and it loses the bite you've been getting in first few laps. So you start braking earlier to compensate.
fast road pads / fluid will help, but you can't beat a proper multi piston caliper set up!
2 piece discs aids heat dispersion.
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have PMd dave so hopefully will get s few good options back. with two piece discs do you only need to replace the outer discs not the hub when it comes to replacing them.
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another question....would removing the dust shield to help cooling be an idea worth looking into, or is it dodgy??
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^^^^
The dust shield is there for a reason - You don't really want loads of (?)corrosive(?) brake dust everywhere.
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for me it just didnt stop me in time, and they are easily cooked, theres only one piston on them so i just dont think they are up to alots of abuse
would track spec pads and braided hoses have fixed that maybe.
maybe would have helped a bit, but they wouldnt look as good :laugh:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy8%2F182_blue%2FIMG_0918.jpg&hash=f7515d083bcbb97cdc03e50178da495d95faafc3)
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^^^^
The dust shield is there for a reason - You don't really want loads of (?)corrosive(?) brake dust everywhere.
The shield is there to prevent stone ingestion into the calipers, which prevents disc damage. There was one B7 RS4 guy over on RS246.com who had a stone in there for over a month before the pads wore down and eventully the stone came into contact with his disc which got toasted at a replacement cost of £600!
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Intresting read this :smiley:
I (ATM) run R32 setup and it is really good and thought I did'nt need anything else..It was then K03
As a k04 I knacked a brand new set of discs at the ring recently(running DS2500's) by doing 2 laps off the trot and not letting them cool down.Never suffered brake fade just obviously got too much heat in the 345's (which weigh a bloody ton!)
So is there a 2 piece disc setup with R8 calipers from Audi that will bolt straight on?
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By knaclered i presume you warped the discs? That also answered the question about DS2500 pads on the R32 setup, as noone seemed to know of any dstributers for them.
makes sense about the dustshield, I just want to cool them down. Maybe i could run some ducting from the front grill to blast on the brakes from inside the wheel arch. Mine were so hot after one lap yesterday youcouldnt even touch the front alloys as they were so hot.
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slightly put off by the idea of warping 345mm discs. but i guess with additonal cooling from ducting maybe it would be much less likely to happen. How'd you find the braking power of the 345s with DS2500 pads around the ring?? I see you had no fade which is a start. Did you pedal bcome spongy after, or have yo put braided hoses on?
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think i might have a set sorted out now, just waiting to confirm details and fitment.
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Off Dave?
What have you gone for??
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365mm 6 pots provided they will fit under my std vRS 18s. need towork out spacer sizes for them as well
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I've had a 365MM AP kit under an 18, you'll be fine :happy2:
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sweet, and you didnt need spacers
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You need spacers for pretty much every kit bar the AP 330mm 4-pot.
3mm iirc. I chose to do mine by changing wheels & offset instead.
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3mm is taht all, i was thinking in the 10mm region!!! but then i have absolutley no clue. anybody got an idea on what fitment would be for a kit like this.
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:signLOL: come on you could have done better than k04, should have read go bigger than k04 :signLOL:
k04 conversion gives our cars 309bhp, ours at stage 2+ give 280bhp, 320-340Ibft, so if i get some water meth id be looking at 300bhp for about 2000 pound less. dont think i can justify that cost for such small gain
More like 370hp for a K04 mate.. The difference between K03 and K04 is night and day..
In terms of what brakes to go for.. Dont let the number of pistons or size / blingyness of the caliper or disc make your mind up as to what is going to be the best performance brake package.. Theres a lot more to it than that!
Going to an R8 caliper is going from one road set up to another, if you want proper brakes buy a race brake set up designed around our cars..
Drilled discs / One piece discs / road pads / road discs no matter how big, how many pistons etc etc will all fade / crack if you really use them.. Admittedly this may only be possible on track but just making the point that someone making a brake kit 'fit' to our cars using some nice looking calipers with 'a' disc with whatever pad will work is not they way to go about getting a good brake package..
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:signLOL: come on you could have done better than k04, should have read go bigger than k04 :signLOL:
k04 conversion gives our cars 309bhp, ours at stage 2+ give 280bhp, 320-340Ibft, so if i get some water meth id be looking at 300bhp for about 2000 pound less. dont think i can justify that cost for such small gain
More like 370hp for a K04 mate.. The difference between K03 and K04 is night and day..
In terms of what brakes to go for.. Dont let the number of pistons or size / blingyness of the caliper or disc make your mind up as to what is going to be the best performance brake package.. Theres a lot more to it than that!
Going to an R8 caliper is going from one road set up to another, if you want proper brakes buy a race brake set up designed around our cars..
Drilled discs / One piece discs / road pads / road discs no matter how big, how many pistons etc etc will all fade / crack if you really use them.. Admittedly this may only be possible on track but just making the point that someone making a brake kit 'fit' to our cars using some nice looking calipers with 'a' disc with whatever pad will work is not they way to go about getting a good brake package..
:congrats: :happy2:
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In terms of what brakes to go for.. Dont let the number of pistons or size / blingyness of the caliper or disc make your mind up as to what is going to be the best performance brake package.. Theres a lot more to it than that!
Going to an R8 caliper is going from one road set up to another, if you want proper brakes buy a race brake set up designed around our cars..
Drilled discs / One piece discs / road pads / road discs no matter how big, how many pistons etc etc will all fade / crack if you really use them.. Admittedly this may only be possible on track but just making the point that someone making a brake kit 'fit' to our cars using some nice looking calipers with 'a' disc with whatever pad will work is not they way to go about getting a good brake package..
....Exactly what I wanted to write but coming from you, Jonny, with your experience etc it is much more convincing. I would just be viewed as "It's all right for RR to say that, he can afford AP's". I feel the same about suspension and most other performance mods by the way. There are a few guys like tony_d and Mat who know what to do but not many and I'm not one of them, so I leave it to the experts.
:happy2:
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Dave's the only person I'd trust to make up a kit from VAG parts.
He's expert in caliper & disc types, piston sizes, master cylinder capacities and all relevant calculations to ensure the brakes are matched to the car.
We're not talking some ECS "just bung the biggest calipers you can find off anything bling" stuff here. Not that Jonny's point isn't valid, but budget doesn't have to mean compromised if you speak to the right people... it'll pretty much be like any Brembo BBK but made from VAG/Porsche branded parts instead.
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We're not talking some ECS "just bung the biggest calipers you can find off anything bling" stuff here. Not that Jonny's point isn't valid, but budget doesn't have to mean compromised if you speak to the right people... it'll pretty much be like any Brembo BBK but made from VAG/Porsche branded parts instead.
....Agreed but you are in the enviable position of knowing 'the right people'. In the absence of such first-hand contacts I think that Jonny's point is extremely valid and very good advice.
:happy2:
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Damn right RR - just cos you can make it fit, doesn't mean it'll work right... fatal error!
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Damn right RR - just cos you can make it fit, doesn't mean it'll work right... fatal error!
Thats basically all I was getting at.. And trying to dispel the myth that in the world of brakes bigger equals better..
Initial bite is where the outright performance comes from in a brake package, the ability to take of speed when the car is traveling at a high speed, when the car is most planted / has the highest aero loading.. Then how the friction properties change throughout the braking zone in relation to temperature..
Obviously there are different priorities for some when looking for uprated brakes, so if the car is going to be used on the road only, then I would suggest trying a few and see what suits your style of driving best.. Some can't get along with high initial bite brakes etc..
Regal demo car has the Alcon set up, VWR has the VWR set up.. There the only two that I have driven and there both very good.. For me the VWR brakes are the best, but like I say, its down to what you prefer..
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Dave's the only person I'd trust to make up a kit from VAG parts.
He's expert in caliper & disc types, piston sizes, master cylinder capacities and all relevant calculations to ensure the brakes are matched to the car.
We're not talking some ECS "just bung the biggest calipers you can find off anything bling" stuff here. Not that Jonny's point isn't valid, but budget doesn't have to mean compromised if you speak to the right people... it'll pretty much be like any Brembo BBK but made from VAG/Porsche branded parts instead.
Who is "Dave"?
sounds like the right person to be in touch with for the upgrading of brakes.
Is he a shop?
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daveB1970, he's just a bloke with access to an engineering shop and a very strange (almost anal) interest in brakes. He's an airline pilot, so hardly in it for the money - just sharing the love!
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Dave is going to have a very nice kit for sale on here very soon, i had a good chat with him last night and i am going to go and try and fit this new set up he has at the weekend. He is going to give our forum a great price, no details yet but they will be coming shortly. The kit he has made up will need 10 mil spacers for them to fit with a standard Monza II So they may not fit mine. :sad1:#
I am going to sort out a small group buy or a really good price from him hopefully.
I agree with your first post Jonny about it not being a full on track set up, But the cheapest we would find one is between 1500 and 2000 pound minimum. And that puts them out of the range for most of us, so you have got to start looking at finding a compromise between how many track days and price. :smiley:
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i fully agree with what you are all saying there, I however cant afford to splash out 1600 on a set of brakes, a £1000ish is my limit, which is pretty much why i wanted to know if the would hold up to what i need.
the brakes I was looking at were 365mm two piece kit, with 6 pot calipers. as found on the rear of a porshe carrera GT supposably, so definately would be able to handle what i could throw at them. I however cant purchase them until the money is saved so they will still be on offer. ill just contact him when i hav the money ready and get some then. Id say from what i have spoken to him so far about, is that dave knows his stuff massively.
the vag crossover parts i think will suit me better, its more affordable and way cheaper than theother options available. And to be fair if they are ok for stopping an RS6 or porsche they should fine on a car half its power.
with the K04 upgrade, ive personally seen the first k04 vRS done at JKM produce 309bhp,(presumably due to the k03 engine having a higher compression ratio maybe). I also drove it and it was quick and felt really progressive with its power, but not worth the extra dosh over stage 2+, if i go that route it will be a bigger turbo