MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: Hurdy on August 17, 2009, 12:45:28 pm
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Been looking at upgrading the Eibach pro street coilovers (so should be for sale at a good price soon!) to one of the above and wondered how each performed and if one had any particular advantage over the other.
A couple of questions also.....
Can you get adjustable top mounts with the Bilsteins
Which one is easier to alter the bump and rebound settings on.
For anyone who has one of these set-ups, what do they feel like in terms of handling V comfort? I don't mind a harder set-up, but wouldn't want my spine shattering if they are inherently rock solid :laugh:
Cheers
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Personally i have only had experience of the KWs, and to be honest the build quality is second to non.
so far i have run Kws on all of my cars and they have not once let me down, and the ride has all wase been firm but well controlled, i wouldnt say that there too stiff for road use either, i like them :smiley:
the only thing i would say that lets the KWs down is the adjustability of them, the rear bump adjusters are fiddly to adjust, and also if you want to adjust the rear rebound you have to drop the topmount (2 bolts) to be able to see them :confused:
I have the clubsports on my car now, but i have had them apart to set the damper lengths properly for how low i wanted to run the car and have also altered the spring rates too, they are firmer than the usual clubsports now but considering i live out in the fens i still wouldn't say there spine braking stiff :laugh:
It would be good to hear about the Bilsteins tho
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WhiteGTI and also Illyun have the Bilsteins. TC and others have the KW Clubsports.
I believe that both KW and Bilstein are the top brands, so it's a tricky choice involving ease of adjustability and cost differences and material durability/corrosion (Important!!).
I'm extremely happy with my KW V3's (not Clubsports) but if I wasn't using VWR for their setup expertise etc, I'd have been very very tempted by Bilstein because of their reputation.
From what you were saying on the phone, Hurdy, I'd favour Bilstein for ease of adjustability with their easy 1-9 settings - But eeeeasy is how I like things.
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WhiteGTI and also Illyun have the Bilsteins. TC and others have the KW Clubsports.
I believe that both KW and Bilstein are the top brands, so it's a tricky choice involving ease of adjustability and cost differences and material durability/corrosion (Important!!).
I'm extremely happy with my KW V3's (not Clubsports) but if I wasn't using VWR for their setup expertise etc, I'd have been very very tempted by Bilstein because of their reputation.
From what you were saying on the phone, Hurdy, I'd favour Bilstein for ease of adjustability with their easy 1-9 settings - But eeeeasy is how I like things.
Yes, this is what is drawing me to the Bilsteins, but the top adjustability of the Clubsports keeps luring me back :laugh:
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I'd be more drawn to the Bilsteins, can't put my finger on why and there's nothing to say one if better than the other - I just prefer the idea of a gas damper.
Oh, and get some Whiteline adjustable topmounts. Most likely cheaper from Julian at Balance.
http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/products/ProductDetail.asp?cls=MSPORT&pcode=WHIKCA254M
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Whichever way you decide, Hurdy, neither will be a mistake but don't rush your decision [says he, wondering how quickly he can get some OZ Alleggerita's!].
:happy2:
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Clubsports are ideally not suited for road use/winter driivng as they are only galvanised (rather than stainless steel). So unless you strip them down and regrease them regularly, they are going to seize. Guaranteed. I have had many sets of coilovers that have gone this way within 12 months of use and winter driving.
On a road car, id be going for some stainless bodies personally, just to save on rebuild costs in the future. V3s are fine for this.
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Clubsports are ideally not suited for road use/winter driivng as they are only galvanised (rather than stainless steel). So unless you strip them down and regrease them regularly, they are going to seize. Guaranteed. I have had many sets of coilovers that have gone this way within 12 months of use and winter driving.
On a road car, id be going for some stainless bodies personally, just to save on rebuild costs in the future. V3s are fine for this.
:surprised:
mine are stainless, same as the clubsports on my mk2 and on the corrado...
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You sure?
Ive read articles stating the Clubsports are not stainless like the innox Variant 1 to 3 coilies, and that they are galvanised only.
Cant seem to find the damn information now. KWs website is useless.
Clubsports come with no warranty though.
Just read somewhere else that Clubsports use the V3 inox bodies with upgraded inserts. :signLOL: Ignore my previous post.
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i say go bilsteins, cos then when i upgrade my coilovers next year, ill have a good comparison between KW and bilstein, dpo it for the team lol :wink:
according to venom motorsport who deal with clubsports and bilstein b16 they rate the bilstein as the best on the market. really though, are the B16 not exactly the same as the B14 except with more adjustability to personalise it to your tastes.
ive never heard a bad thing about either TBH, the clubsports come with top mounts though which is a mega plus point. Although adjustability is supposably more awkward and there is a question about them not being stainless and possibly seizing up.
what are the prices for each set
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Having adjustable dampers on a road car is a nice idea but once you have reached a good compromise that your happy with then thats it surely?
I bought a set of AST dampers and had them re valved, and specced my own springs for them.. Yes there pretty extreme but I certainly dont miss the adjustability of a club sport etc..
KW club sports are good but if your looking to spend some reasonable money consider pushing the boat out and going for a set of AST or Ohlins dampers and have them made to your spec..
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I agree there.
if i buy some they wont be fully adjustable as i wouldnt have a clue what is adjusted for what reason. Id go for either Kw version 2 or bilstein B14, and to be fair if the B14s were trialed at the ring, they must be OK for the road as its pretty bumpy there in places.
The AST dampers are presumably similar to a koni FSD except more performance orientated, and you put on a fixed height spring, or are they a coilover and you specced your own spring to go on them. I dont have the knowledge to spec my own spring ill just rely on manufacturer testing and consumer reviews.
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I wanted the adjustability for the numerous periods when I go to the Pod and trackdays.
I like the ability to adjust the dampers for bump and rebound, so at the pod I can have them like rock at the rear and mid at the front, for the track have them med to hard front and rear and for the road soft to medium for a little more comfort :happy2:
Come to think of it, that probably means bilsteins with some whiteline adjustable top mounts then :laugh:
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whiteline adjustable top mounts who sells them, i didnt even know whiteline sold them. i know their bump steer kit is now available .
are you based anywhere near whitegti he has the b14 coilovers.
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The AST dampers are presumably similar to a koni FSD except more performance orientated, and you put on a fixed height spring, or are they a coilover and you specced your own spring to go on them. I dont have the knowledge to spec my own spring ill just rely on manufacturer testing and consumer reviews.
Not really, there a motorsport specific damper that I have on mine, but just non adjustable damping.. The ride height is adjustable..
I wanted the adjustability for the numerous periods when I go to the Pod and trackdays.
I like the ability to adjust the dampers for bump and rebound, so at the pod I can have them like rock at the rear and mid at the front, for the track have them med to hard front and rear and for the road soft to medium for a little more comfort :happy2:
Come to think of it, that probably means bilsteins with some whiteline adjustable top mounts then :laugh:
I would say go for the KW's above the Bilsteins. KW offer more options on springs and use a motorsport style spring so you have an option to play with them in the future..
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Simon - Tweeks sell them, along with balance motorsport - most likely cheaper at the latter, call Julian and ask.
I know he's not got his mitts on the bumpsteer kit yet, I've said I'll trial it for him when he does.
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looks piece of p*ss to fit as well, as long as you mark where the locking nut was on the track rod alignment should be ok. I have H2sport top mounts at moment, not fitted yet though, only a preset 4way camber adjustability though.
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Id say from experience, KW clubsports are excelent for adjustability and yes, you can spec spring length and NM rates to suit your application. I have 70, 80 & 90NM for mine and different lengths too for front or back...
Bilstein have a very long and proven history in the suspension market and very good quality.
When I installed White GTis suspension - i compared it to a KW V1/2 spring and damper set up - the dampers certainly had more height adjustability and our techs were impressed with that kit and the ones we've fitted since.
Its all about preferences and for most, the KW V2 and V3 kit will suffice.
If you would like to know prices on anything suspension - let me know & I'll see what offers are available :)
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I've just fitted the Clubsports...main reason is their handbuilt motorsport pedigree and tech put into their valving and spring rating.
They do come with warranty as backed up by KW (UK) and my supplier.
They have excellent and easy adjustability and have the added bonus of adjustable camber a must for road and track use. The car runs so flat now there will hardly be a need for ARB's such is the excellent spring rates.
I've run Bilstein, Koni / Eibach, H&R and Leda on previous car's including my race prep'd Golf. Clubsports are what VWR use and highly recommend although they use Race spec springs.
Well worth the money IMO
I will find and post re their construction from the literature I have with the kit.
They ceratinly transform the stock set up.
Nothing wrong with Bilstein either and I wouldn't want to call which is best as they are both companies of high pedigree in motorsport.
Ian
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I had both on previous rides, and i'm running H&R ultra low coilovers on the mk5 now, which i think better both the KW and the billys, but if i had to choose between the two in question i'd go for the KW's.
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Clubsports are what VWR use and highly recommend although they use Race spec springs.
Nothing wrong with Bilstein either and I wouldn't want to call which is best as they are both companies of high pedigree in motorsport.
Ian
....Don't forget that VWR in running the VW Race Championship are sponsored by KW (amongst others) and also have a close technical partnership with KW Germany. So, they probably couldn't be running Bilstein even if they favoured them.
In saying this I'm not suggesting that Bilsteins are necessarily better than KW - It's a close call and both are primo pedigree as you have posted :happy2:.
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been running the bilstein pss10 on mine for the past 10k miles, got them for a good price from julian at Balance c£1100.
These are my first coilovers i have had for any of my cars so difficult to compare to anything else, but been really impressed with them, handling is sharp and smooth when driving on good roads, but you really feel the bumps and dips in the roads and can be a bit much for the gf on long drives but I like it.
simon at amd in woking who put on my revo map and then took the car out to test thrash it, asked me when he got back what they were as was very impressed with them, they normally fit kw there, but i've never driven a car with kw on so couldnt comment
easy to adjust them,no need to jack the car up, but it does make it easier with the rear shocks, the fronts you just turn turn the wheel and adjust the nobs. only ever adjusted them once though when I went to the pod to tighten up the rear...
sure either the kw's, ast or bilstein all give good performance
I went with bilstein as been playing GRID racer on ps3 alot so all their advertising on the game must have worked :signLOL:
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been running the bilstein pss10 on mine for the past 10k miles, got them for a good price from julian at Balance c£1100.
These are my first coilovers i have had for any of my cars so difficult to compare to anything else, but been really impressed with them, handling is sharp and smooth when driving on good roads, but you really feel the bumps and dips in the roads and can be a bit much for the gf on long drives but I like it.
simon at amd in woking who put on my revo map and then took the car out to test thrash it, asked me when he got back what they were as was very impressed with them, they normally fit kw there, but i've never driven a car with kw on so couldnt comment
easy to adjust them,no need to jack the car up, but it does make it easier with the rear shocks, the fronts you just turn turn the wheel and adjust the nobs. only ever adjusted them once though when I went to the pod to tighten up the rear...
sure either the kw's, ast or bilstein all give good performance
I went with bilstein as been playing GRID racer on ps3 alot so all their advertising on the game must have worked :signLOL:
Missed your Birthday yesterday James. Happy belated birthday. :happy2:
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been running the bilstein pss10 on mine for the past 10k miles, got them for a good price from julian at Balance c£1100.
These are my first coilovers i have had for any of my cars so difficult to compare to anything else, but been really impressed with them, handling is sharp and smooth when driving on good roads, but you really feel the bumps and dips in the roads and can be a bit much for the gf on long drives but I like it.
simon at amd in woking who put on my revo map and then took the car out to test thrash it, asked me when he got back what they were as was very impressed with them, they normally fit kw there, but i've never driven a car with kw on so couldnt comment
easy to adjust them,no need to jack the car up, but it does make it easier with the rear shocks, the fronts you just turn turn the wheel and adjust the nobs. only ever adjusted them once though when I went to the pod to tighten up the rear...
sure either the kw's, ast or bilstein all give good performance
I went with bilstein as been playing GRID racer on ps3 alot so all their advertising on the game must have worked :signLOL:
Missed your Birthday yesterday James. Happy belated birthday. :happy2:
Many thanks TC,
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NEW BILSTEIN B16 CSC 'CLUBSPORT':
http://www.bilstein.de/en/products/sport-and-threaded-ride-high-adjustable-kits/bilstein-b16-csc.html
:laugh:
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I am running PSS9's (might be the 10's)
I have been experimenting with damper settings, considering getting more advice and talking to Center of gravity or simpson Motorsport.
KW are the new kids on the block, Billies have been round the block. Both very good I'm sure, I played the safe card from my experience with Billies in the past.
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Bilstein every time for me, I cant give a direct comparison to KW clubsport vs the b16's as I have not driven the same car with both kits fitted, doubt many gave tbh.
I have however driven lots of cars with both, maybe its all on my head but I always prefer the bilstein setups, KW often seem very harsh for road use, hiwever not sure if they were set up properly.
We get lots of motorsport based stuff in, from 1000hp ultimas to trackday porsches, I see a lot more bilstein stuff on the higher spec, more expensive cars.
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Im the opposite. KW everytime for me. I bought a brand new set of PSS9's for my old car and changed them for K3's two weeks later. The PSS9s were either too soft or too bouncy. None of the 9 settings worked for me. I set the V3's up how I like them and they were perfect. I cant comment on the PSS10's, but I fit loads of clubsports to Porsches and Lambos etc and they are always spot on. We have clubsports on our demo Boxster Spyder and the ride is super smooth. I always found that the Bilsteins floated and bounced too much, giving instability.
One of our Lambo GT3 cars runs the KW race setup and the other runs Ohlins with KW springs.
Our old TT race car ran Bilstein bodies with KW springs. It was the only way to get the best from them by fitting KW springs.
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NEW BILSTEIN B16 CSC 'CLUBSPORT':
http://www.bilstein.de/en/products/sport-and-threaded-ride-high-adjustable-kits/bilstein-b16-csc.html
:laugh:
I have seen that a few weeks ago, but they are not available for our cars.
A good way to improve Bilstein PSS10 is to remove the progressive springs and replace them with H&R linear ones.
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I will be meeting up at the Herts meet on the 24th, I have B16's and will hopefully have some settings that I think work. It will be interesting to see how they compare to KW V3's Robin maybe you should drive my car ?
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I will be meeting up at the Herts meet on the 24th, I have B16's and will hopefully have some settings that I think work. It will be interesting to see how they compare to KW V3's Robin maybe you should drive my car ?
....Could be interesting. Mine have been very well set up by VWR and needed no adjustment when recently laser checked on an independent Hunter rig. The roads around J&H probably aren't ideal in the dark.
Quite honestly I would expect the Bilsteins to be excellent. It's a bit like comparing top of the range cameras from Nikon and Canon.
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I agree with RR, i bet theres very little difference between them in 'actual' perofrmance. Everyone has their preference at the end of the day.
I think the Billies win on ease of adjustability, but the KW V3 has more adjustability
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I've been looking at both of these kits. I've had Clubsports before.....very comfy and good all round but once on the car I rarely adjusted them.....running 2.5 degrees neg on the front.
Are the Bilsteins as comfy / plush on the road when slackened off or are they stiffer being a mono shock. I understand Bilstein rig test and I assume the oil filled KW;s can warm up on track and soften up?
Will I get as much grip with a anti lift and anti bump kit using the Bilsteins which don't have camber adjustment or am I better re ordering KW's?