MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Modifications & Technical Area => FAQ's => Topic started by: john_o on August 21, 2009, 11:52:04 am
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whats all the fuss about ?
through no fault of our own after relatively few miles and dependent on conditions the inlet tract on TFSI engines starts to foul up.
dont think its just a high mileage issue , its happening to us all. :confused:
heres jonnyc S3 8P (still the 2.0 TFSI) intake valve from a stripdown at xx,xxx miles :
jonnyc's S3 stripped
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fo304%2Fjonnnny28%2F03082009242.jpg&hash=0d8b5a023724f9d4c8de79c90e7a5143ae109ce6)
why ?
heres a useful diagram.
The key thing to remember is that the TFSI doesnt have a catch can (but everything else is relevant) , and oil fumes / water vapour and related gumph are ported back into the engine to try and achieve good emissions...
On most cars this is not a problem as fuel washes constantly keeping everything clean.
The bad news is that TFSI is direct fuel injection (injectors spray directly into the combustion chamber), so the only thing passing the intake valves is air (and the oil and water vapour gunk), this is really bad news.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.carbing.co.jp%2Fenglish%2Fproducts%2Fcatch%2Fimage%2Ftheory_oil.gif&hash=59e3c160a905d65a260f86c3f57b142558740927)
(thanks Robin :wink:)
this happens to both standard or remapped cars, but the increased boost pressure is liable to make the issue worse.
How does this work on the 2.0 TFSI ????
heres some info on another thread , with a >> diagram of flow << (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=8565.0)
possible solutions
The solution is to try and reduce or stop the amount of oil and water vapour fumes making their way back into the intake system...
MOT compliant options
EuroJet PCV valve (http://www.20squared.com/product_p/5.1.025.htm)
uprated check valve & hose in the OEM location
£40
This works by raising the pressure level at which the fumes are recirculated.
Forge oil seperator manifold and catch tank (http://www.forgemotorsport.co.uk/content.asp?inc=blog&i=27)
has a level viewing function
(not yet available but coming soon)
cost unknown
Works by seperating oil and water vapour and holding them for draining.
BSH Stage 1 (http://www.bshspeedshop.com/store/product.php?productid=16937&cat=1011&page=1)
BSH Stage 2 (http://www.bshspeedshop.com/store/product.php?productid=16952&cat=1011&page=1)
(note there is an upgrade kit available from stage1 , which I presume adds a modified 'plate' and a catch can)
Works by seperating oil and water vapour and holding them for draining
(there also appears to be a high capacity catch can with dipstick measure (from 7 to 32 floz) kit available , those above use the small catch can)
Non MOT compliant
BSH Race version (http://www.bshspeedshop.com/store/product.php?productid=16997&cat=1011&page=1)
Works by seperating oil and water vapour and holding them for draining.
or DIY vent to air!
General Info
General BSH PCV page
http://www.bshspeedshop.com/store/home.php?cat=1011
BSH have 2 different catch can sizes
standard :
volume = xxml
260mm deep (top to bottom inc the top hose connection and bottom drain valve)
95mm wide (at the widest point where the connections are)
50mm wide (across the narrowest point)
no dipstick or viewing method , just open drain to empty
large :
size : TODO
increased volume of xxml
dipstick to measure fluid level
open drain to empty
I think the smaller can is more than adequate for most folk provided you drain it every 1500 miles or so initially.
What's captured in the can really varies from car to car, what type of driving you do and time of year (you collect more during the colder months vs summer). You should get a feel after 2-3 draining on how much "stuff" you're collecting though I do wish the can came with a view window.
If the can fills up then only the excess collection after that point will go back through the return hose to the inlet valve port but hopefully with due diligence it should never get to that point.
many people on this forum entered into the Group Buy organised by Dubtek for the BSH product
BSH PCV Stage 2 Fix Catch Can System Group Buy (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=7037.0)
Seafoaming
This is an agressive detergent that has been discussed as a possible way to remove deposits from the intake system.
It is not proven (scientifically by VW at any rate) , so its done at your own risk!
seafoam discussion on mkv.com (http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81247)
seafoam video (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6187290865726229173)
useful links
golfmkv.com : common issues : PCV failure (http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24952)
BSH PCV fix possible ebay / group buy thread... (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=7001.0)
Actual GB for BSH PCV solutions .... (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=7037.0)
BSH Catch tank alternative locations by Stokeballon (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=7057.0)
Oil forum thread showing deposits on a Porsche DI engine (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1493810#Post1493810)
install comments by monkgti (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=7845.0)
Audi S3 install by WarrenCox (http://audi-sport.net/vb/showthread.php?p=815178#post815178)
Catch Can Fitting for Octavia vRS by Mater (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=7885.0;topicseen)
install comments by RedRobn (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=7756.0)
Cupra install by DaveyCupra (http://www.seatcupra.net/forums/showthread.php?t=237596)
Topic: Emptied my Catch Can Today……some good pics from KRL (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=8340.0)
Water Methanol kits discussion : keeps your engine clean..... (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=7870.0)
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^^^^
Excellent as always! :drinking:
Do we know whether the addition of an aftermarket Catch Can system might eventually result in the gradual deterioration of the gunk previously living on the valves?
And does it matter if Seafoam is used after a Catch Can is installed?
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^^^^
Excellent as always! :drinking:
Do we know whether the addition of an aftermarket Catch Can system might eventually result in the gradual deterioration of the gunk previously living on the valves?
It wont Robin, only way to totally shift is cylinder head overhaul and decoke.
Or see if the this "seafoam" does anything if its available in the Uk.
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^^^^
Cheers, Phil :happy2:
Seafoam sounds a bit scary but taking the cylinder head etc off a 2.0T FSI ain't a cheap option AFAIK.
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You may be interested in this RR but I have no experience with it.
http://www.wynns.be/news.aspx?l=EN&isectionid=49&iarticleid=282
As for the valves, this buildup really only affects the inlet valves. Firstly it's not imperative to remove the cylinder head to clean the inlet valves of this build up. Instead the guys in the US have been removing the plastic inlet manifold and manually cleaning the valves as it's more thorough than Seafoaming
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As for the valves, this buildup really only affects the inlet valves. Firstly it's not imperative to remove the cylinder head to clean the inlet valves of this build up. Instead the guys in the US have been removing the plastic inlet manifold and manually cleaning the valves as it's more thorough than Seafoaming
I'll be doing this on mine when i get round to it now i have fitted the BSH Stage 1 fix. Just need to make sure you rotate the engine during the process to get to each valve. Fair bit of elbow grease involved, but a simple process really.
I have picked up a spare cylinder head from ebay, so might just clean that, get it ported/flowed and fit it as a replacement instead.
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You may be interested in this RR but I have no experience with it.
http://www.wynns.be/news.aspx?l=EN&isectionid=49&iarticleid=282
As for the valves, this buildup really only affects the inlet valves. Firstly it's not imperative to remove the cylinder head to clean the inlet valves of this build up. Instead the guys in the US have been removing the plastic inlet manifold and manually cleaning the valves as it's more thorough than Seafoaming
....Cheers! :drinking: You're a star!
I'll be adding the removal of plastic inlet manifold etc to the work list for my next trip to VWR :happy2:
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So much for fuel additives doing a good job if going in to the engine to physically clean the valves is required!
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I think I might give that Wynns stuff a go.
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So much for fuel additives doing a good job if going in to the engine to physically clean the valves is required!
Unfortunately this problem is specific to direct injection engines and cannot be blamed on petrol with or without additives.
One way around this problem but not a cure is to use water/meths injection as that will tend to minimise that stuff depositing itself on the valves in the first place. The extra bonus is you can run higher timing and get more power.
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sorry for the late reply Robin, I dont propose to be an expert on this , just trying to collate and store the relevant info :happy2:
I reckon regular (every 5k miles?) treatment by pouring something into the intake might help prevent deposits.
Catch can from new is the only answer. (or live in an environment where the problem is lessened)
remember also that some 'coking' can be beneficial to smooth inlet tracts etc
djhorace : the citing of the injectors is why additives have no effect.
GB of wynns :signLOL: ?
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Can of wynns for me too please :happy2:.
If the valves are accessable from the inlet manifolf, thats a relatively easy fix.
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I've fired off an email to Wynns to see if they can help us.
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:congrats: stu :happy2:
What about a punt at a product made by Wurth??
Would that be better on newer Technology as it were?
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This problem was more of a problem in america isnt it??
They use crap fuel 94 octane?? and 502 grade oil, which our longlife oil is alot better quality, so this issue may or may not be a major problem?
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What is the WURTH product Steve?
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Not sure, have spoken to Shaun (T_T) and aparently its more up to date product and better on newer engines then the oil school wynns.
I will try and find out.....
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This problem was more of a problem in america isnt it??
They use crap fuel 94 octane?? and 502 grade oil, which our longlife oil is alot better quality, so this issue may or may not be a major problem?
Can you honestly look at the pic of what SteveP's car collected in the catch can over 2k miles and think that the problem is confined to the US?
It's an inherent design "flaw" of the FSI engine.
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This problem was more of a problem in america isnt it??
They use crap fuel 94 octane?? and 502 grade oil, which our longlife oil is alot better quality, so this issue may or may not be a major problem?
Can you honestly look at the pic of what SteveP's car collected in the catch can over 2k miles and think that the problem is confined to the US?
It's an inherent design "flaw" of the FSI engine.
and take another look at Jonny's pics
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http://www.wurth.co.uk/product-0893564.php
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yes but what oil was in jonnys engine? Was it on 504 longlife?
And have we seen a pic of steveP's valves to proove?, and has he had any bhp problems...His car has done quite a few thousand miles and no running issues.
I think a can of this Wurth stuff is worth a punt incase mine has any issues in future.
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http://www.wurth.co.uk/product-0893564.php
Thats the stuff :happy2:. cheers Stu
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hmm, I can't see that product helping with this issue as the fuel is sprayed directly into the cylinder leaving the inlet valves "untouched".
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hmm, I can't see that product helping with this issue as the fuel is sprayed directly into the cylinder leaving the inlet valves "untouched".
But you spray this into the intake ducts, which goes via the valves and would clean it surely?
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It is a known and accepted problem Steve. It was recently featured in Audi Driver magazine.
I've also emailed Wurth to see what they've got to say.
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hmm, I can't see that product helping with this issue as the fuel is sprayed directly into the cylinder leaving the inlet valves "untouched".
Usage -
Disconnect vacuum hose at a suitable point and insert Spray Probe (0891 564). With the engine warm and running at about 2000 rpm, spray half of the product evenly into all intake ducts whilst simultaneously moving the probe to and fro. Allow 30 minutes for the product to take effect and then add the rest of the product.
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. It was recently featured in Audi Driver magazine.
Any link on the net to this stu? or sneaky read at whsmiths? :ashamed:
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I'm sad enough to get it delivered. :evilgrin:
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Ahh, thought it was for just adding to the petrol. :ashamed:
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http://www.audidrivermag.co.uk/
I think it's in the TTRS issue which seems to be the only link not working.
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I'm sad enough to get it delivered. :evilgrin:
Let me know when you get it mate :party:
Worth ago i think, then last resort , spending out on a catch can for the minute.
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Ahh, thought it was for just adding to the petrol. :ashamed:
10K boost came out years ago which is a similar product I think.
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http://www.wurth.co.uk/product-0893564.php
Good website isnt it!
Uses
System Cleaner should be used in the following situations:
•In the event of a loss of compression.
•If fuel consumption increases.
•If engine performance decreases.
•In the event of delayed accelerator response.
•Particularly suitable for use before tuning the engine and analysing exhaust gas emissions.
Thanks to Shaun T_T for the info on this product :happy2:
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hmm, I can't see that product helping with this issue as the fuel is sprayed directly into the cylinder leaving the inlet valves "untouched".
Usage -
Disconnect vacuum hose at a suitable point and insert Spray Probe (0891 564). With the engine warm and running at about 2000 rpm, spray HALF of the product evenly into all intake ducts whilst simultaneously moving the probe to and fro. Allow 30 minutes for the product to take effect and then add the rest of the product.
Other half in my car stu :signLOL: :wink: ........dam says you have to add the rest 30 minutes later :ashamed:
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Something else I've noticed is that the American GTI's don't have the 'charcoal'(?) box which we do.
Would someone care to educate me and possibly others what that box in front of the screenwash filler is, please : -
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FMods%2FBottles_angle.jpg&hash=18fd8289129b1d34f0f8c1730ed36a45dd0e83c3)
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This problem was more of a problem in america isnt it??
They use crap fuel 94 octane?? and 502 grade oil, which our longlife oil is alot better quality, so this issue may or may not be a major problem?
Can you honestly look at the pic of what SteveP's car collected in the catch can over 2k miles and think that the problem is confined to the US?
It's an inherent design "flaw" of the FSI engine.
Serously, there is some amazing BS about this! I suggest you look at the innards of a conventionally fuel injected engine, or even an engine with a carb - because ALL engines, direct injection or NOT - will get carbon build up on valves.
The reason it is prevelant in the US is simply because the Yanks do NOT use 504.00 spec oils - and 504.00 spec oils are the ONLY oils specifically designed for FSI direct injection engines. Secondly, as Phil Mcavity pointed out - the Yank fuel is much poorer quality than ours - Yankie fuel has a much greater amount of sulfur in it. Finally, any carbon 'build up' on the back side of inlet valves will be made much worse if a non-standard air filter is used - because all the crap which enters the ports simply 'sticks' to the fine oil mist, and then burns like a cinder.
If you only use a quality 504.00 from a European oil company, and retain the original OEM paper air filter - then this will NOT be an issue! :stupid:
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http://www.wurth.co.uk/product-0893564.php
Purfect! :happy2:
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hmm, I can't see that product helping with this issue as the fuel is sprayed directly into the cylinder leaving the inlet valves "untouched".
Then you don't really know much about how engines work. Try googling 'valve overlap'
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....
Something else I've noticed is that the American GTI's don't have the 'charcoal'(?) box which we do.
Would someone care to educate me and possibly others what that box in front of the screenwash filler is, please : -
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FMods%2FBottles_angle.jpg&hash=18fd8289129b1d34f0f8c1730ed36a45dd0e83c3)
Yankie GTIs should have that!
Anyway, that is the carbon canister. It basically stores excess 'vapour' from the fuel tank, and then when the engine is running under a certain operating condition (usually a high vacuum - but FSI engines don't usually create a high vacuum, so VW must have a different way) - the 'contents' of the canister get directed into the inlet manifold, and combusted in the engine.
Does that help? :smiley:
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If you only use a quality 504.00 from a European oil company, and retain the original OEM paper air filter - then this will NOT be an issue! :stupid:
....99.9% of us are using the better quality oil so that leaves the question of the air filter.
So I'm now wondering if a Catch Can system is needed at all for those with oem and not aftermarket air filters. Afterall, wouldn't VW have been aware of a direct injection system clog up in the longer term. And Jonny's car is far from stock!
^ Just thinking aloud and wondering.
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Other half in my car stu :signLOL: :wink: ........dam says you have to add the rest 30 minutes later :ashamed:
You really are as tight as two coats of paint aren't you :signLOL:
I tried not to believe what they all say about you but you're making it difficult :evilgrin:
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....
Something else I've noticed is that the American GTI's don't have the 'charcoal'(?) box which we do.
Would someone care to educate me and possibly others what that box in front of the screenwash filler is, please.
Yankie GTIs should have that!
Anyway, that is the carbon canister. It basically stores excess 'vapour' from the fuel tank, and then when the engine is running under a certain operating condition (usually a high vacuum - but FSI engines don't usually create a high vacuum, so VW must have a different way) - the 'contents' of the canister get directed into the inlet manifold, and combusted in the engine.
Does that help? :smiley:
....Yes it helps, Sean :drinking:
I've seen lots of pics (I think!!) of it not being in that position on American GTI's so I guess it must be positioned elsewhere.
[Goes off to trawl GOLFMKV forum across the pond]
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Other half in my car stu :signLOL: :wink: ........dam says you have to add the rest 30 minutes later :ashamed:
You really are as tight as two coats of paint aren't you :signLOL:
I tried not to believe what they all say about you but you're making it difficult :evilgrin:
Yes i genarally do squeek when i walk :laugh:, Just having a laugh, will order a Whole Can for myself. :wink:
Undone the wrapping on your catch can yet mate?? :scared:
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whats all the fuss about ?
through no fault of our own after relatively few miles and dependent on conditions the inlet tract on TFSI engines starts to foul up.
dont think its just a high mileage issue , its happening to us all. :confused:
heres jonnyc S3 8P (still the 2.0 TFSI) intake valve from a stripdown at xx,xxx miles :
jonnyc's S3 stripped
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fo304%2Fjonnnny28%2F03082009242.jpg&hash=0d8b5a023724f9d4c8de79c90e7a5143ae109ce6)
Erm, that is fairly normal for any engine. OK, it may be a little crusty, but I personally don't consider that to be too excessive. So why was the engine stripped down in the first place?
But a few other vital pieces of info need to be shared:
- How many miles has the car done
- Exactly what spec and brand of oil has been used
- What spec and type of fuel has been used
- What air filter is/has been used
- How is the engine driven (particularly during the warm up cycle)
- What kind of journeys does the car do
- What is the emissions reading from the exhaust gas
- Has any of the engine related warning lights come on
- Are there any fault codes stored
- Have any live on the fly data logging been carried out, particularly on the A/F and lambda readings
- Is there any history of overfilling the oil sump
- What is the oil consumption history
Because posting pics like that is really verging on the 'scaremongering'.
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This problem was more of a problem in america isnt it??
They use crap fuel 94 octane?? and 502 grade oil, which our longlife oil is alot better quality, so this issue may or may not be a major problem?
Can you honestly look at the pic of what SteveP's car collected in the catch can over 2k miles and think that the problem is confined to the US?
I havn't seen any pics, but to be brutally honest, if you fit a catch can on ANY engine, it will catch oil - that is its sole purpose!
It's an inherent design "flaw" of the FSI engine.
Sorry, but strongly disagree - very strongly disagree!
IF it were a design flaw, why have hundreds, even thousands of peeps not been complaining to BBCs Watchdog, or What Car, or Auto Express - or what about the motoring sections of the respectable newspapers, such as the MotoringTimes and the likes.
Nope, this is just blatant scaremongering - someone over the pond didn't like the plastic PCV, thought they could make one out of alloy, and then used a 'normal' but slightly scary scenario to sell their wares. And I'm sure we all need NO reminding that with the Yanks, if a part can be changed, then it will - irrespective of weather it needs it or not.
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It is a known and accepted problem Steve. It was recently featured in Audi Driver magazine.
Hmmmmm . . . I'm sorry, but I just don't trust Autometrex any more!
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It is a known and accepted problem Steve. It was recently featured in Audi Driver magazine.
Hmmmmm . . . I'm sorry, but I just don't trust Autometrex any more!
Lol, now you really are getting paranoid Sean. :rolleye:
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If you only use a quality 504.00 from a European oil company, and retain the original OEM paper air filter - then this will NOT be an issue! :stupid:
....99.9% of us are using the better quality oil so that leaves the question of the air filter.
I wouldn't be so sure on the oil issue. OK, here in the UK and Europe, we do have a massively higher compliance with the correct oil specs than over the pond. However, not even all 504.00 oils are as good as others. Just take the Mobil 1 ESP 5w30 - whilst it technically is approved to 504.00 - atcually contains a considerable amount of MINERAL oil (dispite what it says on the label).
Secondly, there are still far too many dealers using the 'wrong' oil.
Next, there are even more 'independents' using the wrong oil. A local to me - supposedly highly regarded VAG inde refuses to use ANY LongLife oil, and insists on using Valvoline - which is American, and made from Group3 basestocks (ie, 'synthesised hydrocarbon fluids' or in laymans terms - mineral oils which have been fiddled with) - and not genuine synthetic base stocks.
And if you were to use 'any old independent', or even a chain such as AA or RAC - then you have no hope of getting the correct oil!
But I do appreciate your train of thought on the air filter. :happy2:
So I'm now wondering if a Catch Can system is needed at all for those with oem and not aftermarket air filters.
I would categorically state if you have the oem filter, and use a high quality brand of the correct oil - then you do NOT need a catch can.
Afterall, wouldn't VW have been aware of a direct injection system clog up in the longer term.
Exactly! :happy2:
And Jonny's car is far from stock!
And that is the crucial point. A very heaviliy modified engine is going to perform way beyond its normal operating boundaries. And I've no doubt that Jonnys engine is running increadibly rich too.
^ Just thinking aloud and wondering.
And you have raised some excellent thoughts. :smiley:
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It is a known and accepted problem Steve. It was recently featured in Audi Driver magazine.
Hmmmmm . . . I'm sorry, but I just don't trust Autometrex any more!
Lol, now you really are getting paranoid Sean. :rolleye:
Well, it WAS them who vhermently stated that the 'Ed30 engine was just a detuned S3 engine' - and look at the epic fail on that one! :scared:
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Afterall, wouldn't VW have been aware of a direct injection system clog up in the longer term.
Pinched this from a post made by Bacillus
VW are fully aware of this issue!
Below is a direct quotation from the technical staff of VAG with complete acknowledgment of the FSI intake valve deposit issue, and it's impacts, including: decreased performance, misfires, catalytic converter damage ... etc.
"Gasoline engines with direct injection of the fuel into the combustion chamber, i.e., not into the intake port, suffer especially from the problem of the formation of carbon deposits on components. Carbon deposits form especially in the neck region of intake valves. A more exact analysis of how these carbon deposits form leads to the following result: Oil and fuel constituents first form a sticky coating on the components. These constituents are chiefly long-chain and branched-chain hydrocarbons, i.e., the low-volatility components of oil and fuel. Aromatic compounds adhere especially well. This sticky base coating serves as a base for the deposition of soot particles. This results in a porous surface, in which oil and fuel particles in turn become embedded. This process is a circular process, by which the coating thickness of the carbon deposits continuously increases. Especially in the area of the intake valves, the deposits originate from blowby gases and from internal and external exhaust gas recirculation, and in this process, the blowby gasses and the recirculated exhaust gas come into direct contact with the intake valve.
Especially in the area of the neck of the intake valves, excessive carbon deposits have extremely negative effects for the following reasons: In the case of Otto direct injectors, the successful ignition of the stratified charge depends to a great extent on the correct development of the internal cylinder flow, which ensures reliable transport of the injected fuel to the spark plug to guarantee reliable ignition at the spark plug. However, a coating of carbon deposits in the neck region of the intake valve may interfere so strongly with the tumble flow that ignition failures may occur there as a result. Under certain circumstances, however, ignition failures can lead to irreversible damage of a catalytic converter installed in the exhaust gas tract for purifying the exhaust gas. Furthermore, the coating of carbon deposits in the neck region of the intake valve causes flow resistance, which can lead to significant performance losses due to insufficient cylinder filling, especially in the upper load and speed range of the internal combustion engine. In addition, the carbon deposits in the neck region of the intake valve may prevent correct valve closing, which leads to compression losses and thus sporadic ignition failures. This in turn could irreversibly damage the catalytic converter. There is the potential for small particles to break away from the coating of carbon deposits in the neck region of the intake valve and get into the catalytic converter. These hot particles may then cause secondary reaction and corresponding local damage of the catalytic converter. For example, a hole may be burned in the structure of the catalytic converter.
Globular deposits are found especially on the valve stem downstream from a partition plate in the intake port. Due to the dripping of high-boiling hydrocarbons from the partition plate towards the valve neck or valve stem, globular carbon deposits eventually form there by the sequence of events explained above. These deposits on the valve stem can result in flow deficits due to undesired swirling and turbulent flow around the globular carbon deposits. This may persistently interfere with the formation of stable tumble flow from cycle to cycle.
A possible solution would be to keep these sources of deposits away, for example, from the intake valve, by completely eliminating exhaust gas recirculation and the introduction of blowby gases into the intake port. However with the combustion behavior of modern reciprocating internal combustion engines, at least external exhaust gas recirculation and the introduction of blowby gases into the intake port are absolutely necessary for reasons of emission control and fuel consumption, so that this approach is not possible. "
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Afterall, wouldn't VW have been aware of a direct injection system clog up in the longer term.
Pinched this from a post made by Bacillus
VW are fully aware of this issue!
....OK but I wasn't aware, hence why I posted it as a question.
Thanks for posting the VAG direct quotation :happy2:
Below is a direct quotation from the technical staff of VAG with complete acknowledgment of the FSI intake valve deposit issue, and it's impacts, including: decreased performance, misfires, catalytic converter damage ... etc.
"Gasoline engines with direct injection of the fuel into the combustion chamber, i.e., not into the intake port, suffer especially from the problem of ...........[etc etc etc]...........
A possible solution would be to keep these sources of deposits away, for example, from the intake valve, by completely eliminating exhaust gas recirculation and the introduction of blowby gases into the intake port. However with the combustion behavior of modern reciprocating internal combustion engines, at least external exhaust gas recirculation and the introduction of blowby gases into the intake port are absolutely necessary for reasons of emission control and fuel consumption, so that this approach is not possible."
....I've heard such things before about emission controls and fuel consumption - They're unfortunately imo such heavy marketing influences.
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Sorry RR it wasn't ment like that. It was more aimed towards T-T, who sometimes thinks he knows more than he actually does.
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Afterall, wouldn't VW have been aware of a direct injection system clog up in the longer term.
Pinched this from a post made by Bacillus
VW are fully aware of this issue!
Below is a direct quotation from the technical staff of VAG with complete acknowledgment of the FSI intake valve deposit issue, and it's impacts, including: decreased performance, misfires, catalytic converter damage ... etc.
"Gasoline engines with direct injection of the fuel into the combustion chamber, i.e., not into the intake port, suffer especially from the problem of the formation of carbon deposits on components. Carbon deposits form especially in the neck region of intake valves. A more exact analysis of how these carbon deposits form leads to the following result: Oil and fuel constituents first form a sticky coating on the components. These constituents are chiefly long-chain and branched-chain hydrocarbons, i.e., the low-volatility components of oil and fuel. Aromatic compounds adhere especially well. This sticky base coating serves as a base for the deposition of soot particles. This results in a porous surface, in which oil and fuel particles in turn become embedded. This process is a circular process, by which the coating thickness of the carbon deposits continuously increases. Especially in the area of the intake valves, the deposits originate from blowby gases and from internal and external exhaust gas recirculation, and in this process, the blowby gasses and the recirculated exhaust gas come into direct contact with the intake valve.
Especially in the area of the neck of the intake valves, excessive carbon deposits have extremely negative effects for the following reasons: In the case of Otto direct injectors, the successful ignition of the stratified charge depends to a great extent on the correct development of the internal cylinder flow, which ensures reliable transport of the injected fuel to the spark plug to guarantee reliable ignition at the spark plug. However, a coating of carbon deposits in the neck region of the intake valve may interfere so strongly with the tumble flow that ignition failures may occur there as a result. Under certain circumstances, however, ignition failures can lead to irreversible damage of a catalytic converter installed in the exhaust gas tract for purifying the exhaust gas. Furthermore, the coating of carbon deposits in the neck region of the intake valve causes flow resistance, which can lead to significant performance losses due to insufficient cylinder filling, especially in the upper load and speed range of the internal combustion engine. In addition, the carbon deposits in the neck region of the intake valve may prevent correct valve closing, which leads to compression losses and thus sporadic ignition failures. This in turn could irreversibly damage the catalytic converter. There is the potential for small particles to break away from the coating of carbon deposits in the neck region of the intake valve and get into the catalytic converter. These hot particles may then cause secondary reaction and corresponding local damage of the catalytic converter. For example, a hole may be burned in the structure of the catalytic converter.
Globular deposits are found especially on the valve stem downstream from a partition plate in the intake port. Due to the dripping of high-boiling hydrocarbons from the partition plate towards the valve neck or valve stem, globular carbon deposits eventually form there by the sequence of events explained above. These deposits on the valve stem can result in flow deficits due to undesired swirling and turbulent flow around the globular carbon deposits. This may persistently interfere with the formation of stable tumble flow from cycle to cycle.
A possible solution would be to keep these sources of deposits away, for example, from the intake valve, by completely eliminating exhaust gas recirculation and the introduction of blowby gases into the intake port. However with the combustion behavior of modern reciprocating internal combustion engines, at least external exhaust gas recirculation and the introduction of blowby gases into the intake port are absolutely necessary for reasons of emission control and fuel consumption, so that this approach is not possible. "
Where did this info come from?
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Sorry RR it wasn't ment like that. It was more aimed towards T-T, who sometimes thinks he know more than he actually does.
Yawn . . .
No need for personal atacks. If you disagree with something I say, then fine, but posts like that are just a tad immature! :indifferent:
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Sorry RR it wasn't ment like that.
....No problem, mate - The "!" made it ambiguous. Besides, I'm always either misinterpreting or being misinterpreted - Very easy on forums.
:happy2:
We are both fluent - But in different languages!
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....
Something else I've noticed is that the American GTI's don't have the 'charcoal'(?) box which we do.
Would someone care to educate me and possibly others what that box in front of the screenwash filler is, please : -
Yankie GTIs should have that!
Anyway, that is the carbon canister. It basically stores excess 'vapour' from the fuel tank, and then when the engine is running under a certain operating condition (usually a high vacuum - but FSI engines don't usually create a high vacuum, so VW must have a different way) - the 'contents' of the canister get directed into the inlet manifold, and combusted in the engine.
....Here's a typical yankee engine bay pic showing no charcoal box visible but it does show a BSH Race Catchcan : -
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsys9five.com%3A8080%2Fetc%2Fpictures%2Fcatchcan%2FDSC_4732-4.jpg&hash=4e6abe59b89d293a5796c707d4a982863c30047f)
EDIT:
Just found this post across the pond but from an Aussie : -
"Just wondering, can this fit into Euro/Aus Spec car? as our car in Aus all comes with the enviroment black thingys box behind the headlight ( where the catch can is )
Or do we have to relocate the can?"
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Sorry RR it wasn't ment like that. It was more aimed towards T-T, who sometimes thinks he know more than he actually does.
Yawn . . .
No need for personal atacks. If you disagree with something I say, then fine, but posts like that are just a tad immature! :indifferent:
It wasn't an attack on you as a person, but you have got to remember that with your knowledge, people take what you say as being the truth, even if you are wrong.
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I dont think he is wrong, but i think if your engine is in high state of tune, then perhaps the can is worth investing in.Though perhaps abit extreme for little evidence of it being a major problem with people losing performance due to high carbon deposits in the induction system.
Apon finding out about this stuff from Wurth, im gonna hedge my bets for a couple of quid firstly if i have performance problems.
My car has been standard so, alot different for some other peoples cars.
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Afterall, wouldn't VW have been aware of a direct injection system clog up in the longer term.
Pinched this from a post made by Bacillus
VW are fully aware of this issue!
....OK but I wasn't aware, hence why I posted it as a question.
Thanks for posting the VAG direct quotation :happy2:
Below is a direct quotation from the technical staff of VAG with complete acknowledgment of the FSI intake valve deposit issue, and it's impacts, including: decreased performance, misfires, catalytic converter damage ... etc.
"Gasoline engines with direct injection of the fuel into the combustion chamber, i.e., not into the intake port, suffer especially from the problem of ...........[etc etc etc]...........
A possible solution would be to keep these sources of deposits away, for example, from the intake valve, by completely eliminating exhaust gas recirculation and the introduction of blowby gases into the intake port. However with the combustion behavior of modern reciprocating internal combustion engines, at least external exhaust gas recirculation and the introduction of blowby gases into the intake port are absolutely necessary for reasons of emission control and fuel consumption, so that this approach is not possible."
That above quote - if it IS official - is very worrying. No FSI engine uses exhaust gas recirculation! :scared:
....I've heard such things before about emission controls and fuel consumption - They're unfortunately imo such heavy marketing influences.
I agree with you on all this 'emissions control' stuff - but sadly, it is simply down to regulations from much higher than VW, and I don't really think it is anything to do with marketing. OK, if VWs engines are more 'envirionmentally friendly' compared to their competators, then by all means, sing about it. But for I bet 99% of 'performance car' owners/drivers, a cars emissions credentials are going to fall in the 'minus section' of important attributes.
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If you only use a quality 504.00 from a European oil company, and retain the original OEM paper air filter - then this will NOT be an issue! :stupid:
I don't quite agree with you on that, my car was stock until 160.000km, using stock air filter and castrol longlife oil, and it still had built up on it. Besides there's a fact noone has mentioned. VW made the valve seals so they would let a small amount of oil past them and down the valve stems to compensate for the lack of fuel to lubricate the valve seals.
And that is the crucial point. A very heaviliy modified engine is going to perform way beyond its normal operating boundaries. And I've no doubt that Jonnys engine is running increadibly rich too.
I can't follow you on the running rich thing, since the fuel isn't at all in contact with the valve stems, then the rich or lean situation has nothing to do with build up, or am i missing something?? :smiley:
And if i have copied/pasted wrong please excuse me, i just wanted to highlight these two inconsistancies. :happy2:
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An excellent article on the benefits of running a catch canfrom redline-motorworks.
How does an oil catch can work and why is it beneficial?
Last Updated: 7/28/2010
There is a large debate as to whether or not oil catch cans are worth the money or not. This article is dedicated to providing a very detailed explanation showing why a catch can is highly recommended in direct injection engine applications.
First, let's go over what is currently happening in your engine without a catch can installed. All internal combustion engines that run off gasoline are 4 stroke engines. This means that the piston has to go up and down a total of 4 times to complete a cycle. The piston first goes down with the intake valves open creating a vacuum. This draws in the cool dense air for combustion. At the same time, fuel is injected into the cylinder. The intake valves close and then the piston rises up towards the top of the cylinder. This compression creates an immense build-up of pressure in the cylinder. The only things containing this high pressure are the cylinder itself, the piston and the piston rings that seat against the walls of the cylinder. The intake and exhaust valves are obviously closed as well. The pressure is so high that a very small amount of the air escapes around the piston and piston rings into the crankcase. This is called blow-by. The amount of blow-by increases as the engine RPMs rise. Also, an engine with more cylinders will have more blow-by. Obviously not all of the air escapes or else combustion wouldn't take place. A diagram of the 4-stroke cycle can be seen below. Only the first 2 steps are relevant in regards to the catch can.
(https://www.redline-motorworks.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/4-stroke-process.jpg)
Inside the crankcase, you have the crank which is turning in the oil pan which is full of oil. This keeps it properly lubricated. PCV or positive crankcase ventilation is necessary to ensure there isn't a build up of pressure in the crankcase. This would cause the crankcase to possibly crack under the pressure and create a huge mess of oil on the street. So the PCV system removes the pressure from the crankcase and reverts it back through the intake tract via crank case vents. This pressure isn't made up of 100% air. It will also contain a very small amount of oil as well since there is so much in the oil pan at a high temperature. This air and oil mixture is then entered somewhere after the intake system, passes through the intercooler (if you car is turbo or supercharged) and then re-enters the combustion chamber (cylinder) through your intake valves to be re-burned. The oil will actually coat everything on its way back to the combustion chamber. It will develop in the intercooler, boost hoses, intake manifold and intake valves. Just on the other side of these valves is where the combustion is taking place where the temperatures are extremely high. This is what actually causes the oil to solidify on the valves. With the oil passing through the intercooler, it can actually coat the cooling fins which will hinder the intercooler's ability to cool the air therefore lowering the efficiency.
The caking on intake valves is only a problem with direct injection engines. For all other engines that use port injection, the gas is introduced before the combustion chamber which means it flows over the intake valves and enter the combustion chamber premixed with the air. This action of the fuel flowing over the intake valves actually cleans the valves from any oil that make already be on there. The oil never has the chance to cake on the valves in port injection engines.
Having oil caked onto your intake valves can cause the following symptoms:
Knocking
Pre-detonation
Loss in power
Loss in fuel economy
Here is an image of carbon build-up on valves. Yes, it's nasty. :)
(https://www.redline-motorworks.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/caked-intake-valves.jpg)
This is mainly due to the fact that the air that comes through your intake system and goes into the combustion chamber won't just be air. It will contain some oil particles which cause the combustion process to be slightly less efficient.
You might ask why do car manufacturers revert this crankcase pressure back into the intake tract? Well, for starters there isn't anywhere safe to revert it to and you can't expel it into the atmosphere because it's not environmentally friendly and is considered to not be street legal.
Another question that arises is why isn't a catch can included from the factory? Well it's pretty simple actually. Most people don't even change their oil (scary but true) so will they think to empty the catch can regularly? The answer is obviously and unfortunately, no.
An oil catch can does just that. It catches or prevents the oil from re-entering the intake tract. A catch can is placed right after the PCV and before the intercooler. This means that a more pure (sometimes 100% pure) air mixture will go through the intercooler and intake valves. A more pure air mixture entering the intake valves means no caking and none of the symptoms listed above.
An oil catch can typically uses steel wool or a baffle system that removes the oil from the air-oil mixture. Higher quality cans use the baffle systems since it is less messy and better at separating the mixture. The oil falls to the bottom of the can where it is stored until the can is emptied.
An oil catch can doesn't add any power or make any cool noises so it is often overlooked when modifying vehicles. However, a catch can will ensure you are always running the most power possible by having a cleaner intake tract free of oil.
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^^^ Great post KRL, thanks for putting it up :happy2:
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^^^ Great post KRL, thanks for putting it up :happy2:
x2 :happy2:
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^^^^
x 3
Excellent info, KRL :drinking:
I suppose that when fitting an aftermarket catch can system to a car which has done enough miles to coat the valves, the damage is already done :sad1:. Or is it like the lungs of someone who gives up smoking and the lungs slowly and gradually clear?
I'm disgusted to read the car manufacturer's attitude of not bothering because the average stupid motorist doesn't bother. These are the same people who never maintain correct tyre pressures. The enviro regulations don't help either.
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AFAIK once a valve has carbon build up on the it will not get removed over time even when running a catch can. What the catch can will do is prevent the valves from getting even worse.
Lots of guys in the US are taking off their intake manifold and hand cleaning their intake valves.
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Lots of guys in the US are taking off their intake manifold and hand cleaning their intake valves.
....I'd have to pay someone to do that for me. Is it a long job do you know?
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I think it would be a good few hours work. As we use better quality oils here I would hope that the build up is not as severe.
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^^^^
Yep, as I feared.. Rather expensive. No drop in performance, so hopefully all is well inspite of some inevitable valve muck.
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Yes good info :smiley:, but still wont change my opinion on one of these cans, for us in this country, with better oils and fuels that we use.
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If you only use a quality 504.00 from a European oil company, and retain the original OEM paper air filter - then this will NOT be an issue! :stupid:
I don't quite agree with you on that, my car was stock until 160.000km, using stock air filter and castrol longlife oil, and it still had built up on it. Besides there's a fact noone has mentioned. VW made the valve seals so they would let a small amount of oil past them and down the valve stems to compensate for the lack of fuel to lubricate the valve seals.
And that is the crucial point. A very heaviliy modified engine is going to perform way beyond its normal operating boundaries. And I've no doubt that Jonnys engine is running increadibly rich too.
I can't follow you on the running rich thing, since the fuel isn't at all in contact with the valve stems, then the rich or lean situation has nothing to do with build up, or am i missing something?? :smiley:
And if i have copied/pasted wrong please excuse me, i just wanted to highlight these two inconsistancies. :happy2:
Purple 1 answer :evilgrin: - OK, maybe I should re-phrase my earlier comment - If you only use a quality 504.00 from a European oil company, and retain the original OEM paper air filter - then this should NOT be an issue! OK, sure, there will always be exceptions - but I stand by my comments. In the UK and Western Europe, we have considerably higher quality unleaded fuels than North America - we have had ULSP, or 'ultra low sulfur petrol' for at least 15 years now, whereas over the pond, their fuels contain considerably higher quantities of sulfur - and it is the sulfur, when burned at high temperatures in a combustion chamber, which produce hard deposits. Secondly, we (UK and W.Europe) generally stick to the recommended oils (yes, there are exceptions, and annoyingly so, most of these deviations are from actual main stealers! :fighting:) - which means fully synthetic 504.00 oils. Now, over the pond, they will only use 502.00 oils - and MINERAL oils can be 502.00 rated.
Onto valve stem oil seals - ALL valve stem oil seals will leak oil - if they don't leak tiny amounts of oil, then the engine isn't running. VWs valve stem oil seals on FSI engines are not any difference (engineering wise) to their earlier non-FSI motors.
And now your own specific car - at 160k kilometers (which is nigh-on 100,000 miles) - ALL engines will have deposits on the back faces of the valves - FSI or non-FSI. This issue really is being made Mount Everest out of a mole hill. There are tens of thousands, nay, probably hundreds of thousands of Volkswagen Group FSI engines happily running, yes, probably with minor valve build up (but certainly not adversely worse than non FSI engines) - without ANY PROBLEMS. The same direct injection technology has been used years before in Mitsubishi GDI engines, it is now also being used in Porsches, Ferraris, BMWs, Toyotas, Fords . . . . the list of direct injection petrol engines will snowball manifold injection - and we will NOT see any kind of epidemic of doom which is being portrayed by mainly the yanks, and specifically by the likes of BSH!
Purple 2 answer - rich running - blow by - get it?????? Highly tuned cars which generally do run rich (to keep combustion temps lower) will inevitably suffer more blow-by into the crankcase. This blow-by will contain neat unburnt fuel, and also, carbon-rich partially combusted crud. Two issues, the unburnt fuel will make the engine oil more 'dilute' and also more 'volatile' (meaning the oil will evaporate to a vapour far more easily), and the carbon particles will 'contaminate' the oil much quicker. OK, the oil filter will take out the larger particles of crap, but the smaller ones will remain in suspension in the oil. Now, when all this black soup of oil and carbon gets vaporised and atomised during normal engine operation, and naturaly circulates through the engine breather system, the extra carbon black, and the effect of increased volatility will only make any oil getting onto the back of the valves much worse. Which is why I ONLY recommend the NEED for a catch can on heavily modified engines.
Have I clarified my thoughts?
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An excellent article on the benefits of running a catch canfrom redline-motorworks.
How does an oil catch can work and why is it beneficial?
Last Updated: 7/28/2010
There is a large debate as to whether or not oil catch cans are worth the money or not. This article is dedicated to providing a very detailed explanation showing why a catch can is highly recommended in direct injection engine applications.
First, let's go over what is currently happening in your engine without a catch can installed. All internal combustion engines that run off gasoline are 4 stroke engines. This means that the piston has to go up and down a total of 4 times to complete a cycle. The piston first goes down with the intake valves open creating a vacuum. This draws in the cool dense air for combustion. At the same time, fuel is injected into the cylinder. The intake valves close and then the piston rises up towards the top of the cylinder. This compression creates an immense build-up of pressure in the cylinder. The only things containing this high pressure are the cylinder itself, the piston and the piston rings that seat against the walls of the cylinder. The intake and exhaust valves are obviously closed as well. The pressure is so high that a very small amount of the air escapes around the piston and piston rings into the crankcase. This is called blow-by. The amount of blow-by increases as the engine RPMs rise. Also, an engine with more cylinders will have more blow-by. Obviously not all of the air escapes or else combustion wouldn't take place. A diagram of the 4-stroke cycle can be seen below. Only the first 2 steps are relevant in regards to the catch can.
(https://www.redline-motorworks.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/4-stroke-process.jpg)
Inside the crankcase, you have the crank which is turning in the oil pan which is full of oil. This keeps it properly lubricated. PCV or positive crankcase ventilation is necessary to ensure there isn't a build up of pressure in the crankcase. This would cause the crankcase to possibly crack under the pressure and create a huge mess of oil on the street. So the PCV system removes the pressure from the crankcase and reverts it back through the intake tract via crank case vents. This pressure isn't made up of 100% air. It will also contain a very small amount of oil as well since there is so much in the oil pan at a high temperature. This air and oil mixture is then entered somewhere after the intake system, passes through the intercooler (if you car is turbo or supercharged) and then re-enters the combustion chamber (cylinder) through your intake valves to be re-burned. The oil will actually coat everything on its way back to the combustion chamber. It will develop in the intercooler, boost hoses, intake manifold and intake valves. Just on the other side of these valves is where the combustion is taking place where the temperatures are extremely high. This is what actually causes the oil to solidify on the valves. With the oil passing through the intercooler, it can actually coat the cooling fins which will hinder the intercooler's ability to cool the air therefore lowering the efficiency.
The caking on intake valves is only a problem with direct injection engines. For all other engines that use port injection, the gas is introduced before the combustion chamber which means it flows over the intake valves and enter the combustion chamber premixed with the air. This action of the fuel flowing over the intake valves actually cleans the valves from any oil that make already be on there. The oil never has the chance to cake on the valves in port injection engines.
Having oil caked onto your intake valves can cause the following symptoms:
Knocking
Pre-detonation
Loss in power
Loss in fuel economy
Here is an image of carbon build-up on valves. Yes, it's nasty. :)
(https://www.redline-motorworks.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/caked-intake-valves.jpg)
This is mainly due to the fact that the air that comes through your intake system and goes into the combustion chamber won't just be air. It will contain some oil particles which cause the combustion process to be slightly less efficient.
You might ask why do car manufacturers revert this crankcase pressure back into the intake tract? Well, for starters there isn't anywhere safe to revert it to and you can't expel it into the atmosphere because it's not environmentally friendly and is considered to not be street legal.
Another question that arises is why isn't a catch can included from the factory? Well it's pretty simple actually. Most people don't even change their oil (scary but true) so will they think to empty the catch can regularly? The answer is obviously and unfortunately, no.
An oil catch can does just that. It catches or prevents the oil from re-entering the intake tract. A catch can is placed right after the PCV and before the intercooler. This means that a more pure (sometimes 100% pure) air mixture will go through the intercooler and intake valves. A more pure air mixture entering the intake valves means no caking and none of the symptoms listed above.
An oil catch can typically uses steel wool or a baffle system that removes the oil from the air-oil mixture. Higher quality cans use the baffle systems since it is less messy and better at separating the mixture. The oil falls to the bottom of the can where it is stored until the can is emptied.
An oil catch can doesn't add any power or make any cool noises so it is often overlooked when modifying vehicles. However, a catch can will ensure you are always running the most power possible by having a cleaner intake tract free of oil.
I qould quite literally rip that article to shreds. There is so much blatantly factual bullsh!t - virtually EVERY sentance or comment has either a fundamental error, or a systematic twist of proven automotive engineering fact. I just CBA to go through it line by line - but here is a starter - have they never heard of a TWO-STROKE petrol engine?????
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I'm disgusted to read the car manufacturer's attitude of not bothering
Why? For 99% of FSI engines - this is NOT a problem. And do you think there is any possibility of collusion between all the other 'direct injection' engine manufactures to brush this under the carpet?
because the average stupid motorist doesn't bother. These are the same people who never maintain correct tyre pressures.
That is a completely different kettle of haddock. Horse to water and all that . . . .
The enviro regulations don't help either.
ORLY - take it you don't know any motorcyclists who have come a cropper on spilt oil. FFS, diesel on the road surface is bad enough - we don't want knuts purposely spewing oil onto the road surface too. I am more than happy about this particlular regulation for closed loop crankcase ventilation.
That is
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AFAIK once a valve has carbon build up on the it will not get removed over time even when running a catch can. What the catch can will do is prevent the valves from getting even worse.
Lots of guys in the US are taking off their intake manifold and hand cleaning their intake valves.
Dooohhhhhh - in the US, they have shyte fuel and use cheap shyte oils. What goes on in the US has NO relevence to what happens here in the UK or Europe (unless you have a secret stash of cheap Russian fuel . . . )
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^^^^
Yep, as I feared.. Rather expensive. No drop in performance, so hopefully all is well inspite of some inevitable valve muck.
Just get some decent fuel additive - Wurth stuff was discussed a long while back, and now even VW have an OEM fuel additive. Run a high dose say once every three or six months. Don't use it continously though, as it can potentially dilute your oil.
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The enviro regulations don't help either.
ORLY - take it you don't know any motorcyclists who have come a cropper on spilt oil. FFS, diesel on the road surface is bad enough - we don't want knuts purposely spewing oil onto the road surface too. I am more than happy about this particlular regulation for closed loop crankcase ventilation.
....Slight misunderstand there, Sean: I'm against those systems which spew the oily residue on the road surface and for the closed cans which need manually emptying. :happy2:
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The enviro regulations don't help either.
ORLY - take it you don't know any motorcyclists who have come a cropper on spilt oil. FFS, diesel on the road surface is bad enough - we don't want knuts purposely spewing oil onto the road surface too. I am more than happy about this particlular regulation for closed loop crankcase ventilation.
....Slight misunderstand there, Sean: I'm against those systems which spew the oily residue on the road surface
Ahhhh - OK, sorry, I thought you were dis-ing the the regs! :ashamed:
and for the closed cans which need manually emptying. :happy2:
What, just like what a normal oil sump and regular oil changes do? :evilgrin: :evilgrin:
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more info
http://golfmkv.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2516446&postcount=97
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and again
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4718884
where saaber quotes
[NOTE : this is merely additional information for you read : neither I, nor mk5golfgtiforum.co.uk accept any responsibility for any damage that may occur from you following any instructions below]
In terms of longevity and having to fight numerous future issues which can be a by product of the valve deposits, stopping the valve deposits is priority 1A IMO. Checking the cam follower is priority 1B. Making sure you don't run the oil too long (beyond 5k for most users) is priority 2.
IMO these are the 3 major weak spots of the 2.0 FSI design: Valve deposits, cam follower, fuel dilution (others such as DV or pcv failing exist also) Here are some options regarding the valve deposits. I would suggest using an option that eliminates pcv gasses returning to the intake tract but there are lots of proactive ways of dealing with the issue listed here.
Some very easy/low cost preventative options that can help but will not solve the DI valve deposit problems:
1) Use a low volatility and good cleaning oil (cost: additional $5-$10 per oil change)
2) Seafoam, lubro moly valve cleaner, water, etc. through the intake at every oil change (search for dsire thread for a DIY) (cost: $3.50-$10)
3) Regular italian tuneups (VW claims int the engine patent that running at high rpm for over 20 min will burn off deposits but I think it will only help a little) (cost: gas)
4) "in-line" or recirculating catch can (all kinds of flavors out there) (cost: $30-$300)
5) Fuel injector cleaner in the gas to deal with fuel injector deposits (will not help with intake valve or intake deposits) (cost:$5-$10)
More difficult/expensive but more effective "treatment" options. These also help but do not completely solve the problem:
6) BG induction service or similar (cost: $135-$250?)
7) water/meth injection (cost: ???)
8) remove intake manifold and manually clean valves every 50k or so (cost: ????)
Some one-time-fix-the-problem options:
1) bypass pcv and route to exhaust (search for saaber2 thread "bypassing pcv") (cost $125-$175)
2) Run a catch can that vents to atmosphere ((may increase build up acids in oil due to lack of vacuum in evacuating crankcase gasses (but that is unknown)) May have smell or freezing issues?) (cost: $300?)
3) Run a "down tube" or "road tube" that vents to atmosphere ((may increase build up acids in oil due to lack of vacuum in evacuating crankcase gasses (but that is unknown)) (cost: $25 -$50)
Modified by saaber2 at 5:46 PM 1-12-2010
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more info
http://golfmkv.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2516446&postcount=97
Yankie forum. That means poor quality, high sulfur fuels, coupled with low quality mineral oil based non-FSI specific lubricants. Hardly appropriate to us.
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http://www.wurth.co.uk/product-0893564.php
** Thread resurection...
Did anyone try this ^ Wurth products are very easy to come by here in Germany.
Has anyone had the inlet mani off to inspect or clean the valves?
:drinking:
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http://www.wurth.co.uk/product-0893564.php
** Thread resurection...
Did anyone try this ^ Wurth products are very easy to come by here in Germany.
Has anyone had the inlet mani off to inspect or clean the valves?
:drinking:
Also how big of a job is it to inspect the valves :happy2:
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I read it's impossible to spray that stuff over all the valves the TB, only the nearest ones are close enough?
Head off and decoke seems the only way, I hope I am wrong.
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Still yet to see a 2.0t in this country with loss of bhp with coked up valves, even a couple years on from this thread started.. Or suffering high emissions... I wouldn't worry personally, but that's your choice :happy2:
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I'm not worried as such, just interested in how the situation can be remedied.
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Nice write up this. Made for a very good read, however I can't help but feel paranoid by my standard PCV set-up now! :grin:
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for what it costs, the uprated / latest revision PCV would out your mind at rest. :happy2:
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How much does it cost?
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Pcv is £35
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That's pretty well priced. When was the new updated revision brought out?