MK5 Golf GTI

All Things Mk5 => How to Guides / Troubleshooting => Topic started by: Sugen on August 25, 2009, 06:30:55 am

Title: Fuel cut
Post by: Sugen on August 25, 2009, 06:30:55 am
The error

1 Fault Found:
000135 - Fuel Rail/System Pressure: Too Low
               P0087 - 002 - Lower Limit Exceeded - Intermittent
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 00100010
                    Fault Priority: 0
                    Fault Frequency: 1
                    Mileage: 68059 km
                    Time Indication: 0
                    Date: 2000.00.00
                    Time: 16:12:43

             Freeze Frame:
                    RPM: 4138 /min
                    Load: 80.4 %
                    Speed: 141.0 km/h
                    Temperature: 85.0°C
                    Temperature: 36.0°C
                    Absolute Pres.: 860.0 mbar
                    Voltage: 13.589 V

Readiness: 0000 0000


Things that have been replaced , Cam, Cam Follower, HPFP, Low pressure sensor as part of TSB.
Current Mods  Revo STG 2 ,  Forge Intake, 3" DP

So what I can acertain from the logs the pressure in the rail fluctuates and sometimes drops to 70bar shortly after this car goes into limp mode. Usually occurs when loading the car in high gear from low rpm.

Anyone have similiar issues its been to the Dealers on numerous occasion any ideas.
Title: Re: Fuel cut
Post by: vRStu on August 25, 2009, 07:04:17 am
Are you running a modified fuel pump?

Have you looked at the in tank pump?

ED30 or normal GTi?
Title: Re: Fuel cut
Post by: Sugen on August 25, 2009, 07:11:54 am
Are you running a modified fuel pump?

Have you looked at the in tank pump?

ED30 or normal GTi?

Running standard pump max requested pressure is 109bar. Couldn't get the car to throw errors when i decided to log the in tank pump looks like its delivering 5 bar + need to get it to fail while i'm logging it tho so I can check pressure vs the rail pressure.

Title: Re: Fuel cut
Post by: vRStu on August 25, 2009, 07:15:34 am
Seems simple then, you need a modified fuel pump.

You can get fuel cut on stage 1 let alone stage 2.

Your fault occurred at just over 4k rpm which is classic fuel cut region.  The fuel pump is cam driven and therefore directly related to engine speed.  In the mid range the pump cannot flow enough to satisfy demand.
Title: Re: Fuel cut
Post by: vRStu on August 25, 2009, 07:19:47 am
Have a look at this -

http://www.goapr.com/products/fsi_fuel_pump.html
Title: Re: Fuel cut
Post by: Sugen on August 25, 2009, 07:30:53 am
I understand and it makes sense. I was just under the impression that Revo Stg2 was designed to work with the standard pump,  I understand no 2 cars are the same and would just like to know if there are many others that also had to upgrade their fuel pumps.

I would like to upgrade to the Revo 2+ so before changing to an upgraded pump I wanted to make sure there are no underlying issues.
Title: Re: Fuel cut
Post by: vRStu on August 25, 2009, 07:33:17 am
Stage II 'may' work ok without the fuel pump but you've likely got the settings optimised for max power and with the addition of the intake and downpipe you're more than pushing your luck.

Stage II+ will for sure need a revised pump.
Title: Re: Fuel cut
Post by: bacillus on August 25, 2009, 08:24:59 am
Could you please state your revo settings?
Title: Re: Fuel cut
Post by: Sugen on August 25, 2009, 08:26:31 am
Could you please state your revo settings?

B7 T3 F9 - 95 Ron  fuel by the way this is at the reef and not the coast.
Title: Re: Fuel cut
Post by: gazbutS3 on August 25, 2009, 08:27:31 am
like stu says, some people have fuel cuts running just stg 1, with you running the exhaust and intake, your asking more from the std pump, looks like its HPFP you need :happy2:
Title: Re: Fuel cut
Post by: vRStu on August 25, 2009, 08:32:56 am
95 ron fuel  :scared:

Have you done any serious logging with those settings?
Title: Re: Fuel cut
Post by: Sugen on August 25, 2009, 08:37:04 am
95 ron fuel  :scared:

Have you done any serious logging with those settings?

Dude thats the best we have at the pumps   :sad1:  So sadly our performance doesn't quite match what you guys get overseas.

Yes I have done logging  my car obviously not the best example but on other cars yes.
Title: Re: Fuel cut
Post by: vRStu on August 25, 2009, 08:38:46 am
ahh, you see you didn't state that you were overseas.
Title: Re: Fuel cut
Post by: Sugen on August 25, 2009, 08:40:06 am
ahh, you see you didn't state that you were overseas.

Sunny South Africa
Title: Re: Fuel cut
Post by: bacillus on August 25, 2009, 08:46:27 am
Try dropping the boost down to T6 as with the higher booost you work your pump a little harder to keep up the rail pressure mid rpm range.

You said that you changed your cam follower, what did the old one look like? Did you visually inspect your cam for wear at that time?

That aside, you really need to post some live logging data to help you out.
Title: Re: Fuel cut
Post by: bacillus on August 25, 2009, 08:50:42 am
btw what year is your car and has it ever been recalled to change the fuel pressure sensor?
Title: Re: Fuel cut
Post by: vRStu on August 25, 2009, 08:54:57 am
has it ever been recalled to change the fuel pressure sensor?


Things that have been replaced , Cam, Cam Follower, HPFP, Low pressure sensor as part of TSB.
Title: Re: Fuel cut
Post by: Sugen on August 25, 2009, 09:15:32 am
You said that you changed your cam follower, what did the old one look like? Did you visually inspect your cam for wear at that time?

That aside, you really need to post some live logging data to help you out.

Will drop boost and see what happens .
Old cam follower didn't show much sign of wear,  visually inspected cam yesterday it did show signs off wear on the lobe not that much cam and cam follower were replaced 2 days apart.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v15/Sugen/logb7t3f9.jpg
Title: Re: Fuel cut
Post by: bacillus on August 25, 2009, 10:07:17 am
Not the most complete of logs but what strikes me is your WG duty cycle seems pegged at 99% indicating a boost leak.

This may account for some uncomfortable timing pull and from what's shown, your boost request isn't being met.

Are you using the original DV?
Title: Re: Fuel cut
Post by: Sugen on August 25, 2009, 10:31:57 am
Not the most complete of logs but what strikes me is your WG duty cycle seems pegged at 99% indicating a boost leak.

This may account for some uncomfortable timing pull and from what's shown, your boost request isn't being met.

Are you using the original DV?

Yip noted and looking into that would like to sort this fueling issue first and then sort boost leak
Title: Re: Fuel cut
Post by: bacillus on August 25, 2009, 02:02:36 pm
I don't know how clean petrol from your stations are but if you haven't changed your petrol filter yet in trying to sort  this low pressure problem, I suggest you do so asap.
Title: Re: Fuel cut
Post by: Sugen on August 27, 2009, 06:42:50 am
I don't know how clean petrol from your stations are but if you haven't changed your petrol filter yet in trying to sort  this low pressure problem, I suggest you do so asap.

Fuel filter has been replaced when cam was replaced about 5 days ago. Did some more logging yesterday and it seems there is nothing wrong with the low pressure pump in the tank pressures don't drop below 4.8 bar at some instances the rest of the time its above 5 bar. Load on pump somtimes reaches 90% but generally between 60-80%.

Did quite a bit of testing yesterday and this is what I've noticed. When loading it in say 4th gear I get the slight hesitation almost all time thereafter it seems as though the vehicle goes into a soft limp mode of sorts where it now request less boost etc not the normal Revo settings. The only way to revert back is to turn vehicle off and then start it again.

Rail pressures are still dropping intermittently by as much as 40bar  so it seems I will have to fit an upgraded pump what concerns me however is that according to Carl at Revo they have not experienced such issues on the Stage 2 map.

So do I install the upgraded pump and risk having issues when i decide to go Stage 2 + ? What else can I test ? I have now changed my REvo settings to B6 T3 F9 will try and do some testing today.
Title: Re: Fuel cut
Post by: Janner_Sy on August 27, 2009, 06:46:58 am
I had the same sort of issue with my car in january, it turned out to be the fuel sender that had gone tits up, and was sending incorrect readings resulting in the car going in limp mode. Butontop of that, where i had my car serviced they had also rammed the engine cover back on breaking the fuel regulator bit ontop of the hpfp.  both were replaced, problem solved :happy2:
Title: Re: Fuel cut
Post by: Sugen on August 27, 2009, 07:05:22 am
I had the same sort of issue with my car in january, it turned out to be the fuel sender that had gone tits up, and was sending incorrect readings resulting in the car going in limp mode. Butontop of that, where i had my car serviced they had also rammed the engine cover back on breaking the fuel regulator bit ontop of the hpfp.  both were replaced, problem solved :happy2:

Part number of fuel sender perhaps  ? 
Title: Re: Fuel cut
Post by: Janner_Sy on August 27, 2009, 07:49:42 am
sorry mate not a clue. I had i done at a dealership
Title: Re: Fuel cut
Post by: Poverty on October 24, 2009, 09:24:07 pm
how did this turn out?
Title: Re: Fuel cut
Post by: bacillus on October 24, 2009, 11:57:40 pm
how did this turn out?

Don't know as he was supposed to send me some of his logs to peruse but never did...
Title: Re: Fuel cut
Post by: Poverty on October 25, 2009, 12:25:45 pm
Thats a shame.
Title: Re: Fuel cut
Post by: Sugen on November 02, 2009, 05:28:06 am
Hey guys sorry that i've been missing had some work projects to round off. Anyway news on my car, upgraded to Autotech Hpfp and fuel cuts were still intermittent on Revo stg2. I then tried the Revo 2+ file and have not had a problem since (touch wood). Requested boost is being met WG duty cycle  comes down quite nicely and timing pull is reduced as well. Will look into Water Meth install soon and report back on that.