MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Modifications & Technical Area => Performance Modifications => Topic started by: danishmkvgti on October 15, 2013, 09:12:35 am
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Well, let's see what people are running, and should i have missed an option please let me know :drinking:
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HPFP Upgrade also do an upgraded hpfp. :smiley:
http://hpfpupgrade.com/Products/Show/Volkswagen/2.0T+FSI/VW+FSI+Complete+High+Pressure+Fuel+Pump
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HPFP Upgrade also do an upgraded hpfp. :smiley:
http://hpfpupgrade.com/Products/Show/Volkswagen/2.0T+FSI/VW+FSI+Complete+High+Pressure+Fuel+Pump
Added to the poll, thx :drinking:
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What's the price differences :smiley:
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Autotech 324£ (Awesome GTI) internals only
APR 799£ :surprised: (Awesome GTI) complete new unit
LOBA 579£ (Awesome GTI) complete new unit
HPFPupgrade.com 750$ complete new unit
KMD 329$ internals only
:happy2:
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Also the kit from KMD (http://kmdtuning.com/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=1153), priced at $329.95.
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Also the kit from KMD (http://kmdtuning.com/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=1153), priced at $329.95.
You never hear about anyone using this, it'll be interesting to see how many is using this :smiley:
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Looking forward seeing some results from this - in the market for one myself soon.
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I run the Loba one. From the techs spiel they say that it delivers up to 50% more fuel if needed. The APR one promotes 40%. The APR pump piston end that physically pushes the cam follower does have a slightly smaller area, which for me is not as good as the Loba one, which is larger and chamfered. They are both made in-house to tight tolerances and specs and so with Loba being the better value one, that is the one I went for. Realistically at anything up to stage 2+ then any will do business. At higher levels I'd personally only go for either the Loba or the APR pumps. :smiley:
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If I was to buy one for my car again then iI would be loba every time. Currently running an APR with no issues. After fitting loads of loba pumps I believe they only just out perform the APR in terms of pressure response, build and hold.
Autotech pumps for me are a no go. Can blow seals although it's never happened to me. Very slow at pressure build too. They don't hold consistent pressure either.
Had a bad experience with KMD so will never use them again. They all seized.
Both the loba and apr can support over 150 bar of pressure too.
Off topic a bit, but I've had some info showing that S3 injectors flow more upto 7.5k than rs4 injectors and S3 injectors spray correctly.
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I'd be interested in that info Alex. :happy2:
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Had a bad experience with KMD so will never use them again. They all seized.
Agreed, I've seen 2 cases with failed KMDs.
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If I was to buy one for my car again then iI would be loba every time. Currently running an APR with no issues. After fitting loads of loba pumps I believe they only just out perform the APR in terms of pressure response, build and hold.
Autotech pumps for me are a no go. Can blow seals although it's never happened to me. Very slow at pressure build too. They don't hold consistent pressure either.
Had a bad experience with KMD so will never use them again. They all seized.
Both the loba and apr can support over 150 bar of pressure too.
Off topic a bit, but I've had some info showing that S3 injectors flow more upto 7.5k than rs4 injectors and S3 injectors spray correctly.
If the pumps can deliver up to 150bar wouldn't it be helping the S3 injectors flowing more at the same opening time?
The info on the S3 injectors would you care to tell us more about that Alex? :)
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When fitting a new autotech can u replace the seals to help them stop blowing?? Or can u not buy this part separately.
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Running Autotech HPFP I'd recommend to others upgrading.
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If I was to buy one for my car again then iI would be loba every time. Currently running an APR with no issues. After fitting loads of loba pumps I believe they only just out perform the APR in terms of pressure response, build and hold.
Autotech pumps for me are a no go. Can blow seals although it's never happened to me. Very slow at pressure build too. They don't hold consistent pressure either.
Had a bad experience with KMD so will never use them again. They all seized.
Both the loba and apr can support over 150 bar of pressure too.
Off topic a bit, but I've had some info showing that S3 injectors flow more upto 7.5k than rs4 injectors and S3 injectors spray correctly.
There is no doubt that the Loba and APR are superior alternatives than Autotech internals, but I have had no issues with mine so far. Alex, is it not a case that any horror stories with the Autotech or down to incompetent fitting and/or not spotlessly clean preparation being carried out by the fitter?
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If I was to buy one for my car again then iI would be loba every time. Currently running an APR with no issues. After fitting loads of loba pumps I believe they only just out perform the APR in terms of pressure response, build and hold.
Autotech pumps for me are a no go. Can blow seals although it's never happened to me. Very slow at pressure build too. They don't hold consistent pressure either.
Had a bad experience with KMD so will never use them again. They all seized.
Both the loba and apr can support over 150 bar of pressure too.
Off topic a bit, but I've had some info showing that S3 injectors flow more upto 7.5k than rs4 injectors and S3 injectors spray correctly.
any chance of a group buy on the loba pump?
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any chance of a group buy on the loba pump?
Andy I thought you said you'd finished modding your car... :wink:
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If I was to buy one for my car again then iI would be loba every time. Currently running an APR with no issues. After fitting loads of loba pumps I believe they only just out perform the APR in terms of pressure response, build and hold.
Autotech pumps for me are a no go. Can blow seals although it's never happened to me. Very slow at pressure build too. They don't hold consistent pressure either.
Had a bad experience with KMD so will never use them again. They all seized.
Both the loba and apr can support over 150 bar of pressure too.
Off topic a bit, but I've had some info showing that S3 injectors flow more upto 7.5k than rs4 injectors and S3 injectors spray correctly.
There is no doubt that the Loba and APR are superior alternatives than Autotech internals, but I have had no issues with mine so far. Alex, is it not a case that any horror stories with the Autotech or down to incompetent fitting and/or not spotlessly clean preparation being carried out by the fitter?
Running autotech internals on mine now for a few years and had no problems so far, was under the same idea as Berg that most failures or horror stories were down to DIY installs :surprised:
but tbh when I had mine fitted I was unaware that it was only an internals change and not a complete replacement pump but been happy with how it's performed :happy2:
Dave
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I ran an autotech one and installed it myself. Had it on for a year with no issues before I sold my car. On my new car the std pump flows up to 200 bar when needed, so it makes me wonder why VW didn't do the same.
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Autotech assembled by JKM in UK for the past 3-4yrs (aprox. 25k miles) !
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Not saying that the Autotech fails, but they don't perform as well as the loba or apr. The cars I have switched from Autotech to loba have showed gains in power.
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APR refurb pump here fitted by APR HQ
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Autotech assembled by JKM in UK for the past 3-4yrs (aprox. 25k miles) !
Jkm don't assemble autotech pump internals anymore...they only supply apr pumps now
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Alex, can you speculate on why APR or Loba bring more power than Autotech ? My car doesn't run as strong as it should for a stage 3 although logs don't show anything wrong (my Autotech makes 128-135 bar with the RS4 valve). I'm thinking I might have some issues with the LPFP (it makes only 3.2bar at redline) or the HPFP (maybe the right pressure doesn't imply it gives enough fuel ? )
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3.2 bar at red line indicates to me you need a new pump.
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That's what I thought too as my LPFP is the oldest version (AXX engine code from 2005). It starts at about 4.8 bar and drops to 3.2 at redline !
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Well... Not that I'm going to but I would only put the APR or the Mr Loba Loba pump.
Having seen the remains of a set of autotech internals, I wouldn't put them on a push bike!
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Are the lpfp expensive to replace?
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Are the lpfp expensive to replace?
Around £300 plus around 1/2 to 1 hr to fit max.
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Ouch
Is there no Walbro alternative that can be used and mapped in?
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Oh, and that is for an RS3 LPFP. GTI ones may be a little cheaper.
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Walbro' s can be used, but IIRC there can be issues with maintaining the right supply. The Walbro works off a level supply whereas the normal LPFP works off a variable supply through a controller. Putting the Walbro through the controller causes issues. It has been done, but isn't as efficient as the OEM+ replacements. :happy2:
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Ok thanks for your advice
Looks like I'll have to bend over when I go k04 :sad1:
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any chance of a group buy on the loba pump?
Andy I thought you said you'd finished modding your car... :wink:
oh yeah sorry i have, but as we all know unless you steer clear of this site completely occasional relapses are inevitable :grin:
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Not saying that the Autotech fails, but they don't perform as well as the loba or apr. The cars I have switched from Autotech to loba have showed gains in power.
I would swap to Loba if a GB price came in at circa £495.00 but not worth paying £500+ for a mod which will only give slight improvement over what have
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Not saying that the Autotech fails, but they don't perform as well as the loba or apr. The cars I have switched from Autotech to loba have showed gains in power.
I would swap to Loba if a GB price came in at circa £495.00 but not worth paying £500+ for a mod which will only give slight improvement over what have
... and a part that wont fail vs one that might. :happy2:
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Not saying that the Autotech fails, but they don't perform as well as the loba or apr. The cars I have switched from Autotech to loba have showed gains in power.
I would swap to Loba if a GB price came in at circa £495.00 but not worth paying £500+ for a mod which will only give slight improvement over what have
Its a very noticeable gain.
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Are the lpfp expensive to replace?
Around £300 plus around 1/2 to 1 hr to fit max.
Audi dropped the price with the latest revision. £255 inc vat. Needs a blank to use one in a front wheel drive tank.
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Are the lpfp expensive to replace?
Around £300 plus around 1/2 to 1 hr to fit max.
Audi dropped the price with the latest revision. £255 inc vat. Needs a blank to use one in a front wheel drive tank.
Yeah, I think replacing it is a must. At stage 2+ it ensures both the High pressure fuel supply and low pressure fuel supply are both optimal and I'd also recommend doing the RS4 FPRV and even the fuel filter. :happy2:
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Not saying that the Autotech fails, but they don't perform as well as the loba or apr. The cars I have switched from Autotech to loba have showed gains in power.
I would swap to Loba if a GB price came in at circa £495.00 but not worth paying £500+ for a mod which will only give slight improvement over what have
Its a very noticeable gain.
Ok Alex, let's say we have one Autotech and one Loba pump. If the logs show both make 130bar all the way as requested by the software, how does the Loba provide a noticeable gain ?
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I had an ed30 in a few months back running an Autotech. Logs showed it was working fine, but the customer wanted something he could trust 100% so we switched to a Loba. Logs instantly showed the loba reacted quicker to throttle changes, but still ran identical pressure to the Autotech. Car felt noticeably faster and smoother.
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I think it depends on the condition of the pump the Autotech internals are fitted to. I had an old OEM pump which I fitted internals to, then swapped them to a new OEM pump. The difference between them was massive, the new pump found pressure much quicker than the old pump.
I then bought a low mileage APR pump which performed just as well, or maybe a fraction worse than the new pump fitted with the Autotech internals.
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I've got an Autotech. I bought it "second hand" (tho it was essentially new) for a good price, but if I were to get a 2nd chance I'd go for the LOBA. shame it didn't exist when i had mine fitted
Not saying that the Autotech fails, but they don't perform as well as the loba or apr. The cars I have switched from Autotech to loba have showed gains in power.
I would swap to Loba if a GB price came in at circa £495.00 but not worth paying £500+ for a mod which will only give slight improvement over what have
... and a part that wont fail vs one that might. :happy2:
i know in the past Autotechs have been known to fail, BUT it does still seem to be a very VERY rare ocurrence. i agree with berg that you need to weigh up the cost and benefit and for me certainly the APR does not justify its cost. the LOBA imo does but i can understand why berg feels it might not.
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I wouldn't consider the Autotech - Too many people I know who are in the motor trade and whose opinions I respect, don't recommend it.
I have an APR and might have considered the Loba if it had been available at the time. Am totally happy with the APR, so great peace of mind.
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I wouldn't consider the Autotech - Too many people I know who are in the motor trade and whose opinions I respect, don't recommend it.
I have an APR and might have considered the Loba if it had been available at the time. Am totally happy with the APR, so great peace of mind.
For what its worth, I agree with this :smiley:
If it were a part completely external to the engine which if failed, wouldnt cause damage to the engine it wouldn't be so much of a concern, however a failing pump will leak fuel into your oil (probably without you knowing :surprised:) which over time could cause serious problems.
Better safe than sorry with critical components like this IMHO :happy2:
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Thats what happened with my autotech pump. I only caught as when I was changing the oil. Never again. The sweetness of cheapness is long forgotten once the poor quality rears its head
Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk
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Thats what happened with my autotech pump. I only caught as when I was changing the oil. Never again. The sweetness of cheapness is long forgotten once the poor quality rears its head
Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk
Exactly
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I wouldn't consider the Autotech - Too many people I know who are in the motor trade and whose opinions I respect, don't recommend it.
I have an APR and might have considered the Loba if it had been available at the time. Am totally happy with the APR, so great peace of mind.
on the other hand, two very well respected tuners in the VAG scene over the years (one of which who posts on here) told me that there are no issues with the autotech internals, only incompetent fitting, and that the only people who say there is a problem are the people who had bought the APR pump and needed to justify the cost to themselves.
having said that though if the Loba pump could be had sub £500 notes i would swap tomorrow because clearly the APR and Loba pump are superior items and when you have spent over £15k on modding what is the difference between autotech internals and a brand new pump?
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Recently gone from Autotech to Loba.
Didn't have any issues and the Autotech always worked well...but always had a nagging doubt about longevity perhaps 5 or more years down the line.
So Loba pump whopped on by Mr Kerr..the first one to be labelled in their serial numbering..pump number 0001.
Loba does feel a tad more 'instant' - hard to quantify but better I think.
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Thats what happened with my autotech pump. I only caught as when I was changing the oil. Never again. The sweetness of cheapness is long forgotten once the poor quality rears its head
Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk
Exactly
so then what about those APR pumps that increased cam follower wear in the US and took out some engines with it? i'm playing devil's advocate here but my point is that you cannot make a valid judgement on a single case.
like i said people will make judgement calls on how much "peace of mind" is worth to them. this will be based on the assumed risk and the price to reduce that risk. i feel that the increased risk of running an Autotech vs. a LOBA or an APR is negligible and on that basis paying 3x as much for an APR for less than 3x reduction in risk is not worth it. the LOBA makes a much stronger case for itself as a new addition to an unmodified car, but in my opinion does not justify replacing my Autotech.
The risk/benefit ratio is almost entirely subjective as from what I can tell there are no published figures on the numbers of each sold and the numbers of failures (and the subsequent damage caused and cost to rectify). but i take comfort in knowing that at least one supplier on here has sold hundreds of the Autotechs without a single failure.
if the Autotech ever does roger my fuel pump seals i'll replace it with an LOBA and just chalk it up to life experience.
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Thats what happened with my autotech pump. I only caught as when I was changing the oil. Never again. The sweetness of cheapness is long forgotten once the poor quality rears its head
Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk
Exactly
so then what about those APR pumps that increased cam follower wear in the US and took out some engines with it? i'm playing devil's advocate here but my point is that you cannot make a valid judgement on a single case.
like i said people will make judgement calls on how much "peace of mind" is worth to them. this will be based on the assumed risk and the price to reduce that risk. i feel that the increased risk of running an Autotech vs. a LOBA or an APR is negligible and on that basis paying 3x as much for an APR for less than 3x reduction in risk is not worth it. the LOBA makes a much stronger case for itself as a new addition to an unmodified car, but in my opinion does not justify replacing my Autotech.
The risk/benefit ratio is almost entirely subjective as from what I can tell there are no published figures on the numbers of each sold and the numbers of failures (and the subsequent damage caused and cost to rectify). but i take comfort in knowing that at least one supplier on here has sold hundreds of the Autotechs without a single failure.
if the Autotech ever does roger my fuel pump seals i'll replace it with an LOBA and just chalk it up to life experience.
well said, just keep replacing the cam follower every service. i would be interested to change to loba, ttrs and fuel filter but that would be best part of £1k...
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^^^^
I also agree with much of what sub39h has posted. It's a very well balanced and objective overview. :happy2:
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Autotech, HPFP, APR in that order. I've had the autotech and have apr now. I would trust hpfpupgrade after reading many positive reviews. I would avoid kmd at all costs. My 1st was autotech, but it was ruined due to finding out, after I got the apr, that my tech had installed the used cam follower along with the new hpfp and so I hadn't planned on checking the cam follower for wear for another 4k miles :( KMD has had too many issues with previous versions that I would avoid which ever version they are on now...even though revo has gotten involved with their quality issues I believe. If I needed another at some point I would get autotech or hpfpupgrade.
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This has confirmed I'll be going with Loba :innocent:
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This has confirmed I'll be going with Loba :innocent:
Good man :happy2:
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Autotech, HPFP, APR in that order. I've had the autotech and have apr now. I would trust hpfpupgrade after reading many positive reviews. I would avoid kmd at all costs. My 1st was autotech, but it was ruined due to finding out, after I got the apr, that my tech had installed the used cam follower along with the new hpfp and so I hadn't planned on checking the cam follower for wear for another 4k miles :( KMD has had too many issues with previous versions that I would avoid which ever version they are on now...even though revo has gotten involved with their quality issues I believe. If I needed another at some point I would get autotech or hpfpupgrade.
ROH, how do you rate the Autotech internals higher than the APR pump? I dont think anyone else is saying that the internals are superior, just querying whether it is worth changing
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Well, let's see what people are running, and should i have missed an option please let me know :drinking:
Does this poll have an end date?? How do I see the results?
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20 Autotech, 17 APR, 8 Loba
thats the standings so far
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20 Autotech, 17 APR, 8 Loba
thats the standings so far
Autotech is cheaper, APR has been around longer, so numerical comparisons don't mean that much. :smiley:
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20 Autotech, 17 APR, 8 Loba
thats the standings so far
Autotech is cheaper, APR has been around longer, so numerical comparisons don't mean that much. :smiley:
Have you run all three at one time or another John? For anyone who wants to go Stg 2+ but has not yet the APR is struggling in my eyes as Loba pump has all benefits and is cheaper and Autotech for anyone on a tight budget is quite a lot cheaper
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20 Autotech, 17 APR, 8 Loba
thats the standings so far
Autotech is cheaper, APR has been around longer, so numerical comparisons don't mean that much. :smiley:
Have you run all three at one time or another John? For anyone who wants to go Stg 2+ but has not yet the APR is struggling in my eyes as Loba pump has all benefits and is cheaper and Autotech for anyone on a tight budget is quite a lot cheaper
You are right. The Loba pump also has other benefits as the tip of the piston is larger and so will be less prone to wearing the inside of the cam follower, plus it is advertised as rated to 150 bar tested, whereas the APR pump is tested at 140bar IIRC.
For me the Loba pump is clearly the better value pump and the fact that it looks to be a higher specification than the APR pump says to me that anyone buying the APR one from now one either doesn't know about the Loba pump or is brand loyal to a fault.
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Cheers for the feedback Hurdy! The loba pump is clearly the one :innocent:
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Great summary John
If you can afford it get a Loba, if you are on a budget get used Autotech internals (whilst you are saving up for the Loba :grin:)
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APR is tested to 150 bar as the stage 3 turbo kit runs a 150bar FPRV.
Both the contact points onto the follower are the same on both pumps. APR on the left, Loba on the right:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fv489%2Ffordkaracing%2F20131105_114624_zps1b925184.jpg&hash=23ad04db18f7110a4225a97b9f479d2cb0c5aacf)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fv489%2Ffordkaracing%2F20131105_114633_zpsec8943ca.jpg&hash=364c6d14e6b8ae96df9c37025bda569e4cc4d3f8)
Loba is still the winner on price, but there isn't anything in it between that and the APR in terms of performance and quality.
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Alex, on a k04 car with S3 injectors, is there any benefit in increasing the pressure from 130bar to say 140bar if the HPFP allows it or there are other limitations (like maxxed out turbo, injectors...) that won't allow the power/torque to go up ?
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Only if the injectors are maxed out at 130 bar. The extra pressure will allow more fuel. APR run 460 odd bhp on the S3 injectors at 150 bar.
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APR is tested to 150 bar as the stage 3 turbo kit runs a 150bar FPRV.
This is news to me. The last time I saw the fuel pump it had a smaller head on the piston which didn't have the chamfer. Also the last time I heard 140bar was what they tested at. Just looked on their website and looks like things have moved on. Thanks for the update Alex. Looks like the difference is just price point then. :happy2:
On a side note, It must also be fairly recently that APR started using the 150bar FPRV......probably since the stage 3 golf R development was completed. I know they have changed a few things like going back to S3/R injectors and removed the need for the LPFP as they had a few issues with the controller, specifically voltage related.
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there doesn't seem to be much in it between the APR and LOBA pump except price, lets get a few miles on these LOBA pumps and see how they fair. If alls good it will be good to have a choice and maybe it will trigger APR into doing something about their price :happy2:
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You can get 155 bar FPRV's from America, could run massive fuel pressure then on a LOBA or APR pump.
You could run a LOBA LO400 with standard injectors and no need to worry about bigger injectors..
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I am currently fitting a BWJ K04 engine in my Mk1 Golf Gti, I am thinking about buying a Loba pump, is there any advantage of fitting an RS4 fuel valve with this or does it come with one?
Also, my current lift pump is good for 10 Bar and I have an adjustable fuel pressure regulator, will this be ok or should I get a Genuine fuel filter with the built in Regulator?
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I am currently fitting a BWJ K04 engine in my Mk1 Golf Gti, I am thinking about buying a Loba pump, is there any advantage of fitting an RS4 fuel valve with this or does it come with one?
Also, my current lift pump is good for 10 Bar and I have an adjustable fuel pressure regulator, will this be ok or should I get a Genuine fuel filter with the built in Regulator?
Loba pump doesn't come with the rs4 valve, but it is worth fitting one.
As long as you have a good fuel return then using the regulator will work.
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Thanks for the info Alex!
How do you mean a good fuel return? I'm using AN-6 hoses for supply and return lines.