MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: Polo6n1600i on October 31, 2013, 07:41:07 pm
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Went out shopping with my wife, 2 kids in the car & our new dog. We sat in the car at tickover while the mrs went out to get the shopping.
Started to smell that acrid electrical fire smell. But couldn't pin point where it was coming from, until swmbo opened her door and she said she could see orange sparks/flames from behind the centre console/under the glovebox. I quickly turned off the key, got the kids & dog out of the car. There was bits of melted plastic dripping onto the removable side trims. Managed to get into it and just blow it out.
Looks like a melted earth point to me??
Any help would be appreciated - I thinking it's maybe one of the earth points for the radio?? However after isolating the damaged wire from the snapped connector - everything still works, with no warning lights
Pics from p/s footwell, up the back of the centre console behind where the heater controls are.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi17.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb58%2Fmrdubstyle%2F40931241d9aef621f5fa0380a251a465_zps34949435.jpg&hash=ab0a92f8158dfed24d353c56784498980ee011f0)
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I unbolted the earth connector and removed it.
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Looks like you were really lucky mate.
That is an earth point, is there white corrosion on the earth nut or is that just the flash?
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There is a little discolouration on the nut, and the earth cable has melted right through where it's been crimped to the connector.
My mrs & kids actually were launched clean out if the car & weren't too happy to be thrown out of the car in the rain. After I explained why - I was forgiven!!
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I would disconnect the battery tonight
Suprised it did not blow a fuse first
Glad its ok
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Never even thought of that!! (Heads out to the parents place now)
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Is your car a diesel?
could be the Electric Aux heater
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Jetta 2.0tdi bkd.
Just come back from parents place. It's definitely an earth, checked continuity with a multimeter.
I got a better picture of its location too.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi17.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb58%2Fmrdubstyle%2F5971f4706bc775c03788dfb5c14e339d_zps319e6f22.jpg&hash=a72750bd08c77777e5fec97dca05083ea971e041)
The black and red wire below the thread stud/earth point that shorted. Is the power feed for the heater flaps motor. The wire that shorted out is a cable bringing the earth connection to this point on the car. My question is wtf does it do??
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As Eddie says looks as though you've got an auxiliary heat fitted!
If you've ever had a scan with VCDS look back at it and it will have an Auxiliary Module listed.
Basically, it gets the internal car heating up to temperature quickly for those who use diesels on short journeys in cold weather!
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Not that I noticed it EVER do anything in my TDI.
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Is there any damage/ chaffing to the red/black wire?
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No damage to any other wiring.
Makes sense, we have had a few Baltic mornings up here the last few days & I did turn the heating upto full just before all this kicked off - it's possible the wiring has been damaged for ages. But the aux hasn't kicked in since earlier this year!!!
I'll get stuck in about it on my next day off and repair the loom.
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I didn't even know there was such a thing as an auxiliary heater!
But now you mention it I'm sure I can feel warmth when I've set the blowers on the screen with ac on only a few minutes after starting the car.
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Just been browsing the net - there should have been a recall for issues with the AUX heater???? Is this right??
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Car Recall Results
Recall notices for this model
Volkswagen
Search results (1–2 of 2) New search
Recall: No. 1 of 2
Recall Ref: R/2008/009
Exact Model: Jetta and Golf Estate with diesel engine
Description: FIRE MAY OCCUR
VIN:
Build Date: 8/1/07 to 9/1/07
Numbers: 10441
Defect: The contact resistance on the earth connection of the heating element for the additional air heater can exceed specification. This could lead to excessive heat developing in the connection area of the cable, which could result in localised scorching. However, if not rectified, this could result in a vehicle fire.
Action: Recall all affected vehicles and check the torque on the earth connection.
Launch Date: 29 January 2008
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Sure a call to the local dealer will tell you if it has been recalled and if not if they can sort it.
:happy2:
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Went back to my parents place this evening, reconnected the battery. Dad Started the car to move it so we could try and get into it to repair the earth - now my dash looks like a Christmas tree full of lights!!!
I need some help - air bag warning lamp & air bag fault, plus the passengers side airbag light flashes on the dash under the hazard warning light. I've got other lights on the dash too!!
My glovebox is out - it has the airbag off switch in there is unplugged when it was started.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi17.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb58%2Fmrdubstyle%2Fef44df3e63ac3e6982f698ac3bfb9580_zps1659180b.jpg&hash=4cf531eec15d73e8ef3c223e3d03d05466c794ec)
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Just requires a few items reset because of the battery disconnection.
In a safe to do situation.Drive the car slowly turning the steering wheel fully left the right and drive straight ahead and it should solve quite a few of them.
Next would require VCDS cancel the air bag one.
So do your repair then carry out the above (cause if you disconnect the battery you will get various faults).
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Turn the wheel all the way to the left for 5 seconds then all the way to the right for 5 seconds then all the way to the left again and then straighten the wheel and drive in a straight line and all the lights apart from the airbag light should go out!!!
because you reconnected the battery with the airbag unplugged on the glovebox it will need clearing with vcds or vas
scott
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Ok, I'm not even going to re use that earth strap - I don't trust it now! I've got a massive chunk of 4 gauge amp powercable with 2 o-rings at each and an a huge bolt to connect it to the actual dashboard metal bracket.
Everyone thing that should be meaty enough??
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That should be fine but I'd try and find out the initial problem.
If it was a missed recall then get vw to sort it all out.
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Was the original connection slack? Cause the auxiliary heater may have a short circuit!
Bigger is better but it makes it more difficult to work with.
The Felix straps fitted on the old minis would of been easier to deal with.
http://www.amazon.com/Heavy-Duty-Braided-Ground-Strap-Caps/dp/B001JT7DHE
Just make sure every electrical connection is sound :happy2:
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The car went into to have its key coded and they did come out and said there was a few recalls to do on it.
Took a pic of the recall stickers too:-
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi17.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb58%2Fmrdubstyle%2Fd7c582d07c9b72bbee61e45416eaf55a_zpsdbc8a9e9.jpg&hash=ebff1963dac6bd4406650f4a15d1a62c76a3fd73)
Code:- 24N8 & 2x 87B4
The cable seems to have snapped at the top of the connector. The nut wasn't loose. I had to get a socket set to undo it.
Nut is quite discoloured!!
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi17.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb58%2Fmrdubstyle%2Fe581178920ca37700f273d13c342eaab_zps8bb6dc99.jpg&hash=36ae71dcd71d88accfa6b46894f7e2ce42958264)
I'll be dropping into vw on Monday to discuss!!
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Do a bit digging on Google to help your cause! :happy2:
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Could have been worse!
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?6053340-Electrical-Fire-Carnage-A-Warning-For-All (http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?6053340-Electrical-Fire-Carnage-A-Warning-For-All)
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Looks like you've been very lucky! :surprised:
I find it's very rare the dealers don't pick up on this type of problem cause 99% of the time it's all due to under specifying the cabling and points of contact and show up early in the vehicles life.
Re- works keep them in business with there biggest customer being there Marque supplier with all those faults we shouldn't have.
Not many mkv's with auxiliary heaters more common in the Audis.
:happy2:
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It was in the main dealers last year to get a replacement key coded - they did say a couple of recalls came up against it. but they said they had done them all.
Not sure where i stand with this & VW's recalls.
but i've just bought 2x 22m earth straps from halfords, and im going to put both earth straps on from that threaded bolt onto the metal dashboard frame
to spread out the earth and upgrade the cables.
I'll get it all put back together on wednesday and get my local guy to clear the airbag codes.
:driver:
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Just found this on Google:-
Recall number 87B4 has been done twice on my car - once at a previous dealer and once when i took it in! This excert from VW's own site!
Jetta
Model Year 2007 - 2008
Campaign 87B4 - Heating element of additional air heater
On Jetta vehicles of a limited production period the earth cable of the electric heating element of the additional air heater may not be correctly attached. An incorrectly attached earth cable can lead to an overheating of the heating element and in the most unfavourable case to a vehicle fire.
For safety reasons a check of your vehicle is necessary. The check of the earth cable contact only takes a few minutes. Check and repair are, of course, free of charge to you.
Please contact your nearest Volkswagen Dealer to make an appointment.
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Flaming Nora!
Can someone explain what models have aux heaters - dont even no what one is tbf!
I've smelt 'hot' from my car GTTDI on occasions but on inspection noticed no ill effect :\
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Flaming Nora!
Errrrr, sorry bad choice of literature :/
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most UK Diesel 2.0 Mk5 chassis cars (Eos, Jetta, Golf, Golf Estates) have it fitted as std! They only work when the temp drops below 4 on the dash & you turn the heating above 22.
The recall only affects some years of car - the nut isnt torqued correctly (which is what has look like has happened with mine!) or the cable is damaged. the earth cable is pretty small and it has to handle to earth for a unit that runs at 200W!!!
Pop off your side trim on the centre console in the passengers side foot well - check the brown cable isnt discoloured, melted or the nut is loose.
This is what you should see:-
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi17.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb58%2Fmrdubstyle%2F5971f4706bc775c03788dfb5c14e339d_zps319e6f22.jpg&hash=a72750bd08c77777e5fec97dca05083ea971e041)
The threaded section you can see is where the earth should connect - just above the red/black cable
Also if its been in for a recall there should be a sticker under the boot floor carpet with the dealers stamp that did the recall and the number "87B4"
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Bigger issure than I thought!
http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/apps/recalls/searches/expand.asp?uniqueID=FE6032221F3BD546802573D30054AF8F&freeText=Blank&tx= (http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/apps/recalls/searches/expand.asp?uniqueID=FE6032221F3BD546802573D30054AF8F&freeText=Blank&tx=)
:surprised: :surprised: :surprised: :surprised: :surprised: :surprised: :surprised: :surprised:
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looks like my detective work was right
hope you get it sorted
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I'll be on the phone to vw tomorrow. See what customer services say about it.
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Called and spoke to VW customer services - advised me to take it back to the local dealers for inspection. Asked them how am i meant to do that as the glovebox is out & the battery is disconnected. if I drive it back to them with the glovebox out, the airbag warning light is going to come on (due to switch insude glovebox for deactivation) - warning light is already on as we had to move the car while the glovebox was disconnected!
They didnt want to take the responsibility and i would need to sort something out with the dealers directly. So called Camerons - they said exactly the same - they cannot guarentee that if there was an accident that the airbag would deploy if the warning light was on the dash!
See what they come back with later!
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Get them to supply a low loader or if your a member of RAC/AA get them to take it there. :happy2:
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I have RAC, not sure if they would do that though??
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I have RAC, not sure if they would do that though??
Why? I've done it before now with the AA... if you haven't got home start, then get the car down the road a little way then call them; he's not going to be able to fix it, so will take you to a garage... :happy2:
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Called and spoke to VW customer services - advised me to take it back to the local dealers for inspection. Asked them how am i meant to do that as the glovebox is out & the battery is disconnected. if I drive it back to them with the glovebox out, the airbag warning light is going to come on (due to switch insude glovebox for deactivation) - warning light is already on as we had to move the car while the glovebox was disconnected!
They didnt want to take the responsibility and i would need to sort something out with the dealers directly. So called Camerons - they said exactly the same - they cannot guarentee that if there was an accident that the airbag would deploy if the warning light was on the dash!
See what they come back with later!
1) You can disable the auxillary heater in Vagcom
2) The Auxillary heater only is "on" during heating, if you have the heaters off the Aux heater is not on.
3) The airbags are supposed to deploy even if there is a fault on. Just that the passenger side will go off even if there is no-one sat there (normally they would only go off if someone is sat in the seat).
4) Either fix it yourself or drive there with the heaters off?
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Thats what i thought too! The car is so low anyway the chances of getting a low loader under it are slim enough!
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Why not just remove the fuse from the Auxillary heater and drive it..
I doubt you are so low you can't get on a low-loader. :happy2:
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Disable the AUX heater by removing the fuse in the engine bay
Coding it out with Vag com won't stop it
As for the airbags
If there is a fault in the system then NO airbags will work
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Which fuse is it? i thought it was the 200W fuse. but removing it just brings the battery warning light on!
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Ok its the 100W one!
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Fuse 6 (100A)
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If there is a fault in the system then NO airbags will work
They do on Vauxhalls :signLOL: :signLOL: :signLOL:
Figured VWs were the same.
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I have no 100w fuses under the bonnet. 80w, 200w & 40w only
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Is Fuse 11 under the bonnet the aux heater control unit fuse?? :stupid:
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So waiting for VW to call me tomorrow - I got a call from local dealer asking me not to drive it to the. For fear of my safety driving the car through with no airbags, and the faulty aux heater circuit.
The are seeing if VW will foot the bill to have the car recovered to them. I've tried RAC, the won't do it as I don't have that kind of cover!!
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Send them a copy of the VOSA link and the photos of the recall labels to help them remember who said they've repaired it!
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Already done that! Recall procedure carried out in 2008, then rechecked in 2012.
Going to remove the drivers side centre console cover & remove the power cable to the aux heater. Also going to disconnect the 80a fuse under the bonnet. Looks like mine maybe in position 6 instead of 5!!
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Car now at main dealers.
Technician that looked at the car had to say he didn't know!!
I'll keep you all posted on the outcome!!
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VW dealers have advised that neither them (who checked the recall in Oct 2012!), nor VW themselves have no responsibility for this issue. Plus the dealers said "I'm not a valued customer & we wouldn't offer you any discount - VW feel it's my own fault as the recall has already been performed & also some parts of the car are not standard fitment, fir example your radio is non-standard"
Repair bill as quoted £808. Which I have to pay myself if I want the Aux heater loom replaced (£232 for loom + 6 hrs labour!!)
However I have removed the main power supply fuse (80amp) is there any reason that I can't just just leave it disconnected and be done with it??
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If they actually said, "you're not a valued customer" that would be shared on as many publicly viewable social media feeds and a conversation with VWUK.
Whether it's right or wrong, that's not the best thing to say to win customers.
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you don't have to fix, just keep the fuse out
time to name and shame this dealer
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They way he actually said it was "you're not a valued customer of ours - the car wasn't bought here, you dont bring it here for servicing - I see no reason to offer you anything towards the repairs."
I think maybe he does realise I'm on first name terms with the parts staff - and have previously spent many thousands of pounds on parts there for various projects.
As for a bit of bad publicity - I have a very good friend who writes as journalist for several car magazines. I'm sure he'd love to get his teeth into a major issue like this!!
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Had a chat with one of my friends in parts who gave me part numbers & prices.
Housing - 1K0972723 -£2.91
Heater element - 1K0963235F - £146.75 (mine is end in "E" which has been superseded)
Wiring loom harness - 1K2971478 - £44.26
Which local stealers want £808 for the above parts & labour!!!
Dealer told politely to "jog on!" - collected the car today. Rebuilding tonight. I'll get codes for airbag cleared tomorrow morning.
Then decide what I'm going to do later. Fuse is removed, so no power to circuit anyway!!
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Finally got a call from VW customer care! I'll be calling them tomorrow!
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Ask them if they monitor and record all calls to customers (cause you seem to have been given the short end of the stick to me) as they've not been very pro customer in such a dangerous mater in my eyes.
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I'll put it this way - If it had been Joe Public who has absolutely no car knowledge at all and didnt realise what the smell was, that could potentially have been a servious fire - or what would have happened if the car had gone on fire while travelling at 70mph on the motorway and the fire cause a fatal crash.
Thankfully I knew how to put it out and isolate the section of damaged loom. The Service manager at the local stealers was a joke! Ok so the Jetta wasnt bought there and I dont get it serviced there, because, frankly - I dont trust them - Its my car and I'll take it where I want.
This is a "STD" fitment part to this car - which is badly designed and isnt fit for the purpose it was designed for - VW themselves know its a potential fire risk! It says so on the VOSA website!
The new loom is £44+VAT from VW - I'd settle for that. But the local dealers wanted me to replace the heater unit itself and all the plastic trim around it resulting in an £808 bill that they wont offer any help on as i'm "not a valued customer!" - not sure how that works as my parts account has seen over £8000 worth of parts go through it and I've bought 2 cars from them?? maybe you have to give the sales staff hand jobs to be truely "valued"??
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Funny way for them to run a business - reading your last post I think you've been an excellent customer of VW.
THERE MUST BE A WAY TO GET SATISFACTION!
Come on guys someone must know how to squeeze that dealership to help a fellow member? :mad:
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oh and the jetta is my 48th VW in 16 years!
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Reading this thread really boils my blood. I am a car sales person (please don’t hold it against me) and I have to deal with things like this all the time. I don’t sell VW but have worked with enough brands to know what’s happening to you.
To understand your awful treatment it is worth understanding how a dealership works these days. Although when you go into the dealership it appears that we are all one happy family each department is viewed as a separate business -Sales, "Service" and parts. We are each targeted separate budgets. A dealerships business plan is that the sales department will run at a loss, the service department will make money and the parts department will be the cherry on top. Individuals are targeted on profit - although the image dealerships like to give is customer satisfaction etc etc the reality is its all about the profit. The service manager will not want to help you because they will be viewing the whole situation with their department in mind - he/she will not even have bothered to look at the bigger picture. They will be unaware if you have ever bought a car from them or how much business you have put the dealerships way in parts revenue. They will have only looked at the history of the car that’s got a problem with it. If VW have said that they are unwilling to help out the service department will have to pay for everything out of their bottom line - which the service manager will get paid on. It sounds like the person who deals with warranty has not done you justice as having an aftermarket stereo is in no way connected to the heater. The only way I can think that may be an issue at all is if the loom was cut to fit the aftermarket stereo? Even if it was that shouldn’t be an issue but simply used as an excuse not to help. Iv worked with a service department that tried to charge a customer of mine £300 to fit a light bulb!! I would doubt you will get help from this service department without kicking up a fuss - you should not have to do this but unfortunately this is how you’re going to get any assistance.
There is one person in a dealership that can help, this is the dealer principle (DP). This person oversees the Sales, Service and Parts department and will be looking at the bigger picture. I would suggest you request a meeting with this person - say it’s about how you have been treated by a member of their team. Be insistent that you need to do this face to face as they will try and sort it out over the phone. Most dealer principles will be concerned with a customer who feels like they have been mistreated. Bring to the meeting any documents of previous transactions with the company and after showing how loyal you have been to the business (8k in parts and two cars) explain what’s happened and more importantly how you have been treated and been made to feel. Customer retention is a major thing at the moment so the DP will want to sort things out. When you have your conversation with VW Customer services they will contact the dealership anyway to see why you have been treated this way and probably have given the DP some grief for it. The DP will want to sort something out for you.
Ultimately this is a know fault and documented on VOSA – regardless if they claim to have fixed it previously its rather apparent it was not done to a satisfactory standard. You and you passengers could have been seriously injured or worse!!!
I hope this is of use to you and if you think I can help any further PM me you number and I’ll give you a call.
Please remember not all dealerships are the same and there are some out there that actually do give a monkeys about customers and continued business.
I would not think that giving the sales team hand jobs would go down too well, but you never know :signLOL:
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Reading this thread really boils my blood. I am a car sales person (please don’t hold it against me) and I have to deal with things like this all the time. I don’t sell VW but have worked with enough brands to know what’s happening to you.
To understand your awful treatment it is worth understanding how a dealership works these days. Although when you go into the dealership it appears that we are all one happy family each department is viewed as a separate business -Sales, "Service" and parts. We are each targeted separate budgets. A dealerships business plan is that the sales department will run at a loss, the service department will make money and the parts department will be the cherry on top. Individuals are targeted on profit - although the image dealerships like to give is customer satisfaction etc etc the reality is its all about the profit. The service manager will not want to help you because they will be viewing the whole situation with their department in mind - he/she will not even have bothered to look at the bigger picture. They will be unaware if you have ever bought a car from them or how much business you have put the dealerships way in parts revenue. They will have only looked at the history of the car that’s got a problem with it. If VW have said that they are unwilling to help out the service department will have to pay for everything out of their bottom line - which the service manager will get paid on. It sounds like the person who deals with warranty has not done you justice as having an aftermarket stereo is in no way connected to the heater. The only way I can think that may be an issue at all is if the loom was cut to fit the aftermarket stereo? Even if it was that shouldn’t be an issue but simply used as an excuse not to help. Iv worked with a service department that tried to charge a customer of mine £300 to fit a light bulb!! I would doubt you will get help from this service department without kicking up a fuss - you should not have to do this but unfortunately this is how you’re going to get any assistance.
There is one person in a dealership that can help, this is the dealer principle (DP). This person oversees the Sales, Service and Parts department and will be looking at the bigger picture. I would suggest you request a meeting with this person - say it’s about how you have been treated by a member of their team. Be insistent that you need to do this face to face as they will try and sort it out over the phone. Most dealer principles will be concerned with a customer who feels like they have been mistreated. Bring to the meeting any documents of previous transactions with the company and after showing how loyal you have been to the business (8k in parts and two cars) explain what’s happened and more importantly how you have been treated and been made to feel. Customer retention is a major thing at the moment so the DP will want to sort things out. When you have your conversation with VW Customer services they will contact the dealership anyway to see why you have been treated this way and probably have given the DP some grief for it. The DP will want to sort something out for you.
Ultimately this is a know fault and documented on VOSA – regardless if they claim to have fixed it previously its rather apparent it was not done to a satisfactory standard. You and you passengers could have been seriously injured or worse!!!
I hope this is of use to you and if you think I can help any further PM me you number and I’ll give you a call.
Please remember not all dealerships are the same and there are some out there that actually do give a monkeys about customers and continued business.
I would not think that giving the sales team hand jobs would go down too well, but you never know :signLOL:
Some real good advice there and insight on how the dealer system works!
To me if this was a work issue - health and safety would string the person up who showed such a blatant disregard for a known fault, in-case their original work round hadn't been technically adequate!
May be Citizens Advice could add a bit weight in your favour?
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just spoke with mark best at VW customer care - i'll be forwarding on images of damage done to the car due to the electrical short. As the retailer didnt do this!!!!!!!!! :surprised:
Do I think it will make any difference to the out come? probably not - a free loom would do! Well i can hope!