MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: Tfsi_Mike on October 03, 2009, 10:57:52 am
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Been biten! :party: confimed I now NEED mounts & LSD! Oh and the noise!! Anyone know much on the spec of her?
I know RR will but he's not around. The handling feels so much better than the Cupra. When the bump steer kit is released
Im going to have it fitted with the WALK in the boot and have the coilies and arbs tweaked so its all spot on. My steering is feeling very 'loose' lately especially compared to the Golf hope its something I can have sorted so it feels more 'weighted' after all it's practically the same car
Mines in for Sachs clutch and new linkages and bushes at the moment. So tempted to ask for the gearbox mount fitted at the same time! haha
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I was in her yesterday too lol
spec is kw v3,LSD,vwr engine mounts road spec and they yet soon to be released vwr 6 pot brakes, more info on those very soon guys :grin:
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Mat
What car are you on about?
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Vwr red mk5
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I was in her yesterday too lol
spec is kw v3,LSD,vwr engine mounts road spec and they yet soon to be released vwr 6 pot brakes, more info on those very soon guys :grin:
It has new prototype brake i think they whine while braking, was warned to expect it or god knows what i would have thought haha.
Where does all the noise come from!! Im assuming its a combinination of the diff, mounts and exhaust?
Im phoning on Monday to see if i can have one of the mounts fitted at the same time :P
Not going to want to give it back! haha
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All the info on brakes will be out soon after mine get fitted :evilgrin: brake noise comes from the rear discs and all the other noise is the diff pulling like mad. Ask mat to show u how loud a race diff is lol
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LSD for my dsg car was £885 and they fantastic :happy2:
what diff did you get? who did it for that much? :drool:
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LSD for my dsg car was £885 and they fantastic :happy2:
what diff did you get? who did it for that much? :drool:
I was just about to ask the same question.
Cheapest i have been able to get is just under £1200 fitted :surprised: so that is a fantastic price especially for a DSG
Carl :happy2:
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Quaife diff .
It was 775 +vat(890)
I did the remval and install myself and a friend in motorsport did the actual diff change.
i recon that 1200 all done isnt bad at all, just need vwr to get back to me to book it in :sad1:
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Agree,seems very reasonable :happy2:
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Im not getting my WALK fitted this month. Will it be ok to get only one of the mounts done? Will it unbalance things? mounted stiffer on one side and not the other?
May do the lower subframe mount while its in for the clutch...
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Im not getting my WALK fitted this month. Will it be ok to get only one of the mounts done? Will it unbalance things? mounted stiffer on one side and not the other?
May do the lower subframe mount while its in for the clutch...
You can safely change just the dogbone mount alone but it is strongly suggested that when you change the engine and transmission mounts, you do them both at the same time.
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Im not getting my WALK fitted this month. Will it be ok to get only one of the mounts done? Will it unbalance things? mounted stiffer on one side and not the other?
May do the lower subframe mount while its in for the clutch...
You can safely change just the dogbone mount alone but it is strongly suggested that when you change the engine and transmission mounts, you do them both at the same time.
Cheers :happy2:
Gonna get lower oe done.. Just realised Ive got my locking wheel nut key :s Wheels off for box off??
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mike took us out in the vwr golf today, and im pretty impressed.
initial thoughts on startup were , Sh!t me, thats a bit intrusive, but that thought went out the window within no time. I was mega impressed at the directness of the steering. It felt massivly heavier than my vRS. Is this the engine mounts causing this. If so I want them now!.
Its definately lively though. it looked like alot of torque steer on the bumpy road, although it had been raining. mike said it was a totaly different animal in the dry though
few questions, im sure robin shall be along to help.
does it have uprated suspension bushes all round?
Does it have the WALK(had a look, and it looked like the std mount was there.)
Is it a GTI or ED 30
What engine mounts where they using?road/race?
looking forward to getting my diff, and new coilovers now, and i think im going to have to go for the lower enine mount(dont think the wife would be too happy with that level of noise in the car).
overall, that car was sh!t hot.
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Car does not have walk fitted and the mounts are there road mount but if u are ever near me mines got the solid race version lol vibration central lol I love it. The engine is a normal Gti engine with ko4 and ed30 cylinder head and it's cams with power flex bushes all around I think and sat on v3 coilovers
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Car does not have walk fitted and the mounts are there road mount but if u are ever near me mines got the solid race version lol vibration central lol I love it. The engine is a normal Gti engine with ko4 and ed30 cylinder head and it's cams with power flex bushes all around I think and sat on v3 coilovers
....That's my understanding of the spec too. She also has a VWR-Milltek exhaust very similar to mine.
You won't get any Grrrrrrrrrrrrr! sounds with only the lower engine mount - You need to install all three for the concert. She's not DSG either.
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Oh and don't forget the prototype Vwr brakes :evilgrin: the very first full production versions will be on mine very very soon :jumpmove:
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Oh and don't forget the prototype Vwr brakes :evilgrin: the very first full production versions will be on mine very very soon :jumpmove:
Oh and does she stop! :party:
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the brakes were fantastic, although I believe when I had the car it had the £2500 kit fitted. When I had it I hated it, the suspension was like riding a car with solid blocks fitted, with the lack of race track like roads in everyday life, i felt it was edging on the dangerous side, bumping and bucking all over the place. The car is now wearing V3's I believe, which are a far better compromise.
According to Matt the map has also been changed, and the power delivery is far better for the public road.
The car was just about ok, but too track focused, and with VWR's venture into the road market (not racing) i feel the car had to become more civilised, which according to Matt it is, with the suspension, brake (i think it now has the new Caparo kit fitted) and map change.
:happy2:
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@mike
you'll have to take me out in it again when it is dry and on a better road, would love to see the difference that diff makes then
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the brakes were fantastic, although I believe when I had the car it had the £2500 kit fitted. When I had it I hated it, the suspension was like riding a car with solid blocks fitted, with the lack of race track like roads in everyday life, i felt it was edging on the dangerous side, bumping and bucking all over the place. The car is now wearing V3's I believe, which are a far better compromise.
According to Matt the map has also been changed, and the power delivery is far better for the public road.
The car was just about ok, but too track focused, and with VWR's venture into the road market (not racing) i feel the car had to become more civilised, which according to Matt it is, with the suspension, brake (i think it now has the new Caparo kit fitted) and map change.
:happy2:
u would hate mine then :laugh: u big girl :pomppomp: i love the hard setup on the road and being able to hear and feel the engine through my seat is ace
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I was mega impressed at the directness of the steering. It felt massivly heavier than my vRS. Is this the engine mounts causing this. If so I want them now!.
Decent geo set up and the poly bushes are most likely the benefit here. I imagine its running very little toe-in on the front (possibly even a little toe-out instead?) and probably parallel on the back with less camber than the front.
Then there's the ARBs and coils... it'll be a sum of many parts, but not the engine mounts.
You can also alter the steering's weight in VCDS :happy2:
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it no longer has adjustable top mounts and it rides on 19s so that does not help for comfort :rolleye:
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@mike
you'll have to take me out in it again when it is dry and on a better road, would love to see the difference that diff makes then
....I have found that the Quaife diff makes a noticeable but subtle difference on the road but at Spa on a session of about 15 laps in the wet (with an instructor in my passenger seat) and ESP off, the diff really came into its own. The harder you push it (within limits!) the more it delivers.
I'm like Mat - I love the hardcore feel of a track biassed car. VWR's road-legal track DSG car (Philip's) is awesome :notworthy:. You quickly adapt and get used to the harder feel and noise of a car - People should dump their preconcieved expectations and open their minds to the benefits of taut and tactile. If it doesn't make your back ache or give you a headache then it's fine imo. If wifey doesn't like it, whose car is it? Yours or hers?
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as Robin says above :smiley: mine now for me is what a GTI hot hatch should be all about :grin: well once the brakes and diff go on :evilgrin: :evilgrin: it should be about how the car feels in your hands ie the feedback u get from the whole driving :driver: pleasure.
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just to add u forget how much all the rubber in the car takes away from the driver to make it comfy :laugh:
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@mike
you'll have to take me out in it again when it is dry and on a better road, would love to see the difference that diff makes then
....I have found that the Quaife diff makes a noticeable but subtle difference on the road but at Spa on a session of about 15 laps in the wet (with an instructor in my passenger seat) and ESP off, the diff really came into its own. The harder you push it (within limits!) the more it delivers.
I'm like Mat - I love the hardcore feel of a track biassed car. VWR's road-legal track DSG car (Philip's) is awesome :notworthy:. You quickly adapt and get used to the harder feel and noise of a car - People should dump their preconcieved expectations and open their minds to the benefits of taut and tactile. If it doesn't make your back ache or give you a headache then it's fine imo. If wifey doesn't like it, whose car is it? Yours or hers?
peoples opinions count? the red car gave me a headache, so I didn't like it. VWR changed the suspension due to a lot of questions about the solid suspension, and its suitability for the 'mordern ill maintained road'.
Taut and tactile is great, but allied to today's poor roads, and all you get is a 'bucking bronco' ride, that prevents proper application of the highly prized horsepower, and that is how i viewed the red car. Power is nothing without control, taut with some compliance is a difficult goal, and i felt the red car did not have it. it may have now................... I believe the car now has V3 coils and the ride has changed somewhat since i last drove it earlier this year, v3's were fitted for a reason............
just my opinion, and as always ETTO.
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like i said, it was a bit intrusive, probably more than i would like to have in an everyday car. What i would like though is the direct feel of the steering. which id presume come from poly bushes, top mounts, coilovers and arbs.
I already have coilovers(they will be getting uprated though), arbs and walk, so by uprated all the bushes on the front of the car, and putting on the lower engine mount, id like to think id be pretty much there with the feel but minus the vibrations.
@topcat or RR
how have you found torque steer with your LSD, id expect it in the wet on bad roads, but how is it on a normal road in the wet and dry. is there much tugging etc
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@mike
you'll have to take me out in it again when it is dry and on a better road, would love to see the difference that diff makes then
....I have found that the Quaife diff makes a noticeable but subtle difference on the road but at Spa on a session of about 15 laps in the wet (with an instructor in my passenger seat) and ESP off, the diff really came into its own. The harder you push it (within limits!) the more it delivers.
I'm like Mat - I love the hardcore feel of a track biassed car. VWR's road-legal track DSG car (Philip's) is awesome :notworthy:. You quickly adapt and get used to the harder feel and noise of a car - People should dump their preconcieved expectations and open their minds to the benefits of taut and tactile. If it doesn't make your back ache or give you a headache then it's fine imo. If wifey doesn't like it, whose car is it? Yours or hers?
peoples opinions count? the red car gave me a headache, so I didn't like it. VWR changed the suspension due to a lot of questions about the solid suspension, and its suitability for the 'mordern ill maintained road'.
Taut and tactile is great, but allied to today's poor roads, and all you get is a 'bucking bronco' ride, that prevents proper application of the highly prized horsepower, and that is how i viewed the red car. Power is nothing without control, taut with some compliance is a difficult goal, and i felt the red car did not have it. it may have now................... I believe the car now has V3 coils and the ride has changed somewhat since i last drove it earlier this year, v3's were fitted for a reason............
just my opinion, and as always ETTO.
And to add to this, unless you live next door the either the Nurburgring or the Snake Pass then it's all a bit irrelevant as speed bumps and speed camera's are what you'll be dealing with 99% of the time.
I for one have to consider the daily commute and as such I won't be looking to replicate what the VWR car can deliver at this point. I enjoyed driving it but much prefer my own car for driving on a daily basis.............. :happy2:
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You quickly adapt and get used to the harder feel and noise of a car - People should dump their preconcieved expectations and open their minds to the benefits of taut and tactile. If it doesn't make your back ache or give you a headache then it's fine imo. If wifey doesn't like it, whose car is it? Yours or hers?
peoples opinions count? the red car gave me a headache, so I didn't like it. VWR changed the suspension due to a lot of questions about the solid suspension, and its suitability for the 'mordern ill maintained road'.
Taut and tactile is great, but allied to today's poor roads, and all you get is a 'bucking bronco' ride, that prevents proper application of the highly prized horsepower, and that is how i viewed the red car. Power is nothing without control, taut with some compliance is a difficult goal, and i felt the red car did not have it. it may have now................... I believe the car now has V3 coils and the ride has changed somewhat since i last drove it earlier this year, v3's were fitted for a reason............
just my opinion, and as always ETTO.
....Taut and tactile doesn't automatically mean you'll get a headache. You rode about 1,000 with me to The Ring but I didn't get the impression you were uncomfortable. I've never felt that The Red Temptress was a "bucking bronco" on the occasions I've driven her.
People's thresholds of acceptance are different and I agree that it's very much ETTO.
:happy2:
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And to add to this, unless you live next door the either the Nurburgring or the Snake Pass then it's all a bit irrelevant as speed bumps and speed camera's are what you'll be dealing with 99% of the time.
I for one have to consider the daily commute and as such I won't be looking to replicate what the VWR car can deliver at this point. I enjoyed driving it but much prefer my own car for driving on a daily basis.............. :happy2:
....Fair enough. I'm just glad I don't live in your neck of the woods nor do a daily commute. :happy2:
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And to add to this, unless you live next door the either the Nurburgring or the Snake Pass then it's all a bit irrelevant as speed bumps and speed camera's are what you'll be dealing with 99% of the time.
I for one have to consider the daily commute and as such I won't be looking to replicate what the VWR car can deliver at this point. I enjoyed driving it but much prefer my own car for driving on a daily basis.............. :happy2:
....Fair enough. I'm just glad I don't live in your neck of the woods nor do a daily commute. :happy2:
You are very lucky that you don't have to negotiate the daily commute every day, just worth remembering most of us do! :wink:
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You are very lucky that you don't have to negotiate the daily commute every day, just worth remembering most of us do! :wink:
....Yes, I apologise - I do often take some things for granted and even when I worked it was based from my studio next door to my home. The only commuting I've ever done in my life was to and from college and that was public transport and not driving.
:drinking:
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You are very lucky that you don't have to negotiate the daily commute every day, just worth remembering most of us do! :wink:
....Yes, I apologise - I do often take some things for granted and even when I worked it was based from my studio next door to my home. The only commuting I've ever done in my life was to and from college and that was public transport and not driving.
:drinking:
:happy2: :drinking:
Oh and apologies we didn't say farewell when we left the circuit on Sunday. I only realised we probably wouldn't see you again after we'd left! :wink:
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You quickly adapt and get used to the harder feel and noise of a car - People should dump their preconcieved expectations and open their minds to the benefits of taut and tactile. If it doesn't make your back ache or give you a headache then it's fine imo. If wifey doesn't like it, whose car is it? Yours or hers?
peoples opinions count? the red car gave me a headache, so I didn't like it. VWR changed the suspension due to a lot of questions about the solid suspension, and its suitability for the 'mordern ill maintained road'.
Taut and tactile is great, but allied to today's poor roads, and all you get is a 'bucking bronco' ride, that prevents proper application of the highly prized horsepower, and that is how i viewed the red car. Power is nothing without control, taut with some compliance is a difficult goal, and i felt the red car did not have it. it may have now................... I believe the car now has V3 coils and the ride has changed somewhat since i last drove it earlier this year, v3's were fitted for a reason............
just my opinion, and as always ETTO.
....Taut and tactile doesn't automatically mean you'll get a headache. You rode about 1,000 with me to The Ring but I didn't get the impression you were uncomfortable. I've never felt that The Red Temptress was a "bucking bronco" on the occasions I've driven her.
People's thresholds of acceptance are different and I agree that it's very much ETTO.
:happy2:
No I didn't Robin, you are right. if you read my post I state that I have not driven the Red car post the new suspension, the car as I drove her was a pain to drive smoothly. A point that was not lost on Matt or Mark, hence the change to the new V3's which are (i would guess) very similar to yours RR.
the car in the old guise was poor to drive over the standard UK road IMHO.
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Ditto Mr Balloon.
I liked the diff... a lot... but hated the suspension.
This was preV3 I believe. So hopefully on my next visit I'll be more impressed.
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No I didn't Robin, you are right. if you read my post I state that I have not driven the Red car post the new suspension, the car as I drove her was a pain to drive smoothly. A point that was not lost on Matt or Mark, hence the change to the new V3's which are (i would guess) very similar to yours RR.
....The guys at VWR are very impressed with the VWR-KW-V3 suspension they did on my car and I believe The Red Temptress now sports the same.
:happy2:
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@mike
you'll have to take me out in it again when it is dry and on a better road, would love to see the difference that diff makes then
....I have found that the Quaife diff makes a noticeable but subtle difference on the road but at Spa on a session of about 15 laps in the wet (with an instructor in my passenger seat) and ESP off, the diff really came into its own. The harder you push it (within limits!) the more it delivers.
I'm like Mat - I love the hardcore feel of a track biassed car. VWR's road-legal track DSG car (Philip's) is awesome :notworthy:. You quickly adapt and get used to the harder feel and noise of a car - People should dump their preconcieved expectations and open their minds to the benefits of taut and tactile. If it doesn't make your back ache or give you a headache then it's fine imo. If wifey doesn't like it, whose car is it? Yours or hers?
peoples opinions count? the red car gave me a headache, so I didn't like it. VWR changed the suspension due to a lot of questions about the solid suspension, and its suitability for the 'mordern ill maintained road'.
Taut and tactile is great, but allied to today's poor roads, and all you get is a 'bucking bronco' ride, that prevents proper application of the highly prized horsepower, and that is how i viewed the red car. Power is nothing without control, taut with some compliance is a difficult goal, and i felt the red car did not have it. it may have now................... I believe the car now has V3 coils and the ride has changed somewhat since i last drove it earlier this year, v3's were fitted for a reason............
just my opinion, and as always ETTO.
And to add to this, unless you live next door the either the Nurburgring or the Snake Pass then it's all a bit irrelevant as speed bumps and speed camera's are what you'll be dealing with 99% of the time.
I for one have to consider the daily commute and as such I won't be looking to replicate what the VWR car can deliver at this point. I enjoyed driving it but much prefer my own car for driving on a daily basis.............. :happy2:
Live near snake pass when at home at nurburgring when at work :D
Got the bad news off matt at VWR this afternoon. Need a new dual mass flywheel :'( £500 more than planned had crippled me this month :( Could have been my diff! :'(
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sh*t mate thats pants. guess it meansd you get the vwr golf a bit longer. As son as it dries up mate give us a call and you can take me out to witness it. for abit longer this time
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Live near snake pass when at home at nurburgring when at work :D
....Hurdy lives very near Snake Pass too. He calls it 'The English Nurburgring'.
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Diff + WALK + MOUNTS + BUSHES + CLUTCH + CUPRA = :drool: :drool: :laugh: :happy2: :pomppomp: :jumping: :jumping: :jumpmove: :driver:
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I bought a duelmass a while ago just Incase when my car had it's clutch done i had one spare but thankfully mine was fine and I kept the flywheel just incase.
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re: Snake - I can see the opposite side to Hurdy's end from my office window right now, on the right side of the Pennines :wink:
Great road, so long as there's no lorries.
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I bought a duelmass a while ago just Incase when my car had it's clutch done i had one spare but thankfully mine was fine and I kept the flywheel just incase.
How much did it cost you.... if you dont mind me asking?
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I bought a duelmass a while ago just Incase when my car had it's clutch done i had one spare but thankfully mine was fine and I kept the flywheel just incase.
How much did it cost you.... if you dont mind me asking?
southbend stage 4 clutch is what im getting :) http://www.4induktion.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=25_53_61_211_206&products_id=62
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I bought a duelmass a while ago just Incase when my car had it's clutch done i had one spare but thankfully mine was fine and I kept the flywheel just incase.
How much did it cost you.... if you dont mind me asking?
would u believe I paid £90 for a full clutch and flywheel off eBay brand new from Vw in the boxes :laugh: and I used the new pressure plate from the kit to go on with the Vwr clutch lol
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I bought a duelmass a while ago just Incase when my car had it's clutch done i had one spare but thankfully mine was fine and I kept the flywheel just incase.
How much did it cost you.... if you dont mind me asking?
would u believe I paid £90 for a full clutch and flywheel off eBay brand new from Vw in the boxes :laugh: and I used the new pressure plate from the kit to go on with the Vwr clutch lol
Oh my F*cking god :sad: :sad:
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mine is booked in on tuesday for the diff :laugh:
and i get the temptress for a week :laugh: :laugh:
i also live very near to snakes pass and the cat and fidle :laugh: :laugh:
there maybe some footage soon
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U might not get the red one u might get the mk6 1.4 tsi
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I was going to suggest that £500 is a bit steep unless your gearbox isn't already out.
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U might not get the red one u might get the mk6 1.4 tsi
That's on my drive now :smiley:
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U might not get the red one u might get the mk6 1.4 tsi
That's on my drive now :smiley:
did they ever get the crisps out of the centre console :ashamed: my son loved doing that :laugh:
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matt told me it was the temptress, but to be fair it would be cheeper on fuel back to yorkshire in the other, but sod it :evilgrin:
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matt told me it was the temptress, but to be fair it would be cheeper on fuel back to yorkshire in the other, but sod it :evilgrin:
I wish it was the temptress you was having cause it means id be picking my car tommorow :sad: My flywheel gets to VWR today or tomorow so its just a case of putting it all back together :popcornsoda:
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If your flywheel is there in the morning mate they will have it fitted very quickly as they are a race team it's what they do lol
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If your flywheel is there in the morning mate they will have it fitted very quickly as they are a race team it's what they do lol
:D didnt think of that, 'll give em a ring in the morning
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If your flywheel is there in the morning mate they will have it fitted very quickly as they are a race team it's what they do lol
:D didnt think of that, 'll give em a ring in the morning
will your new clutch cope with our BT plans?
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If your flywheel is there in the morning mate they will have it fitted very quickly as they are a race team it's what they do lol
:D didnt think of that, 'll give em a ring in the morning
I saw yours on the ramp tonight and can confirm your really need that the new DM flywheel :surprised:
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If your flywheel is there in the morning mate they will have it fitted very quickly as they are a race team it's what they do lol
:D didnt think of that, 'll give em a ring in the morning
I saw yours on the ramp tonight and can confirm your really need that the new DM flywheel :surprised:
Wish you'd got a quick camera pic, what was said?
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He showed me your DM flywheel and the excessive movement / klonking :scared:
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If your flywheel is there in the morning mate they will have it fitted very quickly as they are a race team it's what they do lol
:D didnt think of that, 'll give em a ring in the morning
will your new clutch cope with our BT plans?
To be honest when VWRset my car up to handle and sound like the Tuning Golf Ill probably be happy with my power output
for a while longer... BT is in the pipe line but there are lots of mods Id like to do in preparation. If I decide not not bother with the turbo at lease ill have a chassis Ill be happy with :)
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He showed me your DM flywheel and the excessive movement / klonking :scared:
Yikes. :sad:
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He showed me your DM flywheel and the excessive movement / klonking :scared:
Yikes. :sad:
At least you know it's getting sorted now :happy2:
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He showed me your DM flywheel and the excessive movement / klonking :scared:
Yikes. :sad:
At least you know it's getting sorted now :happy2:
All shiny new :) Surely DMF should outlast 20k miles? :confused:
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Your's isn't the first one I have heard of to go when running extra power on the stock clutch.
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out of interest, what stops the DM goin tits up again, maybe even quicker with the extra friction of the upgraded plate?
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So an uprated clutch should mean logetivty of the DMF, hope so...
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out of interest, what stops the DM goin tits up again, maybe even quicker with the extra friction of the upgraded plate?
That how i miagined it, more agressive clamping clutch = more damage / faster wear & tear on DMF ? :sad1:
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Woo hoo! got her back :D Such a difference!!! Feels like an animal again :) Had the lower mount done aswell.
My old DMF really was Fubared! :( Next up, my WALK fitted, eng & box mounts & diff :evilgrin: :party:
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Glad u got it back mate looks like I am down teusday now lol
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Woo hoo! got her back :D Such a difference!!! Feels like an animal again :) Had the lower mount done aswell.
My old DMF really was Fubared! :( Next up, my WALK fitted, eng & box mounts & diff :evilgrin: :party:
glad your cars back pal, did you ask about the uprated plate and DMF?
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Woo hoo! got her back :D Such a difference!!! Feels like an animal again :) Had the lower mount done aswell.
My old DMF really was Fubared! :( Next up, my WALK fitted, eng & box mounts & diff :evilgrin: :party:
glad your cars back pal, did you ask about the uprated plate and DMF?
Decided on unsing the oem cover plate with the sintered metal clutch. Used the money Id paid for cover plate for fitting lower mount. Made a real difference in the take up of power was so sloppy before!
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Woo hoo! got her back :D Such a difference!!! Feels like an animal again :) Had the lower mount done aswell.
My old DMF really was Fubared! :( Next up, my WALK fitted, eng & box mounts & diff :evilgrin: :party:
glad your cars back pal, did you ask about the uprated plate and DMF?
I meant about the effect of the uprated plate on the std DM flywheel
Decided on unsing the oem cover plate with the sintered metal clutch. Used the money Id paid for cover plate for fitting lower mount. Made a real difference in the take up of power was so sloppy before!