MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: RedRobin on October 10, 2009, 03:32:24 pm
-
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F_PMbtGLWvFlQ%2FSDsgPd1wwFI%2FAAAAAAAABo8%2F7hT96wLWD-A%2Fs320%2Fesp.jpg&hash=b18b3487efc78c6160f24e8c0d5d26b8c2051658)
How do you guys 'n gals use ESP? Do you....
A) - Always leave it On as default, and so never switch it Off.
B) - Sometimes switch it Off.
C) - Only switch it Off for trackdays or the Nordschleife.
D) - Always switch it Off whether road or track.
What are your thoughts and reasons, please?
-
B.
Why switch it off on public roads, where it is an uncontrolled environment and you can suddenly come upon unsuspected hazard?
-
B.
Why switch it off on public roads, where it is an uncontrolled environment and you can suddenly come upon unsuspected hazard?
the same
-
B.
Why switch it off on public roads, where it is an uncontrolled environment and you can suddenly come upon unsuspected hazard?
the same
....Agreed.
However, a friend of mine always switches off his ESP because he says he finds the ESP intrusive on his Mk4 R32. He is a keen snowboarder though and this perhaps explains his preference.
So, Mat, do you have ESP On or Off for The Ring?
-
on for a a lap to get back into it and then off after a warm up
-
Usually have it on. Occasionally switch it off. Like when I'm at the lights, there's no one around and the road ahead is clear.
-
When the weathers warm and the blacktop is dry I never have ESP on ( maybe it's an .:R32 thing?)
when the weathers the opposite the ESP is on
that's why it's switchable, it doesn't always need to be on and can hinder a good driving sesh
-
It used to get switched off on every single car I ever owned and then once I got my ED, for some reason I never turned it off, no idea why, only on my last trip to the ring, after much talking other people I decided to turn it off. The difference around the ring was night and day, I could point the car better, slide it into tight corners hitting the apex easier, didnt get "bogged down" in low gear corners and then when it all got horribly out of shape in the damp the ESP came in even with it turned off.
In a nutshell since then if im going for it on the road it gets switched off because the car handles so much better and I know in the back of my mind once this human idiot has got it wrong it might still save my ass.
Of course in the wet its always on :happy2:
-
C for me.
Mainly i don't notice it during normal road driving, but having it off makes a diff on a track day when u nail the throttle out of corners.
-
Always off on the road, wet or dry.
I've said this before...in the dry it actually comes on without the light illuminating. It really does restrict the car so much!
Plus, I've found that when it is on, and you induce a loss of traction it corrects the car, however if you are a competent driver and you know how to correct the car, you are kind of counterbalancing the correctiveness that the ESP does - which, in my experience leads to the car becoming more out of control than in the first place!
Furthermore, I've found that since the fitment of the TD's, the feel is soooooo much better, and I can really feel the grip mid-corner and on exit - which further reduces the need for the ESP, in my opinion.
-
....
So far I've always had it on but I was lucky enough to get a long session at Spa with an instructor in my passenger seat (he also drove my car, loved it and I had to remind him to let me drive it again!). To my initial horror he suggested I switch ESP off. It was very wet and even a constant stream of running water at La Source hairpin. He also encouraged me to brake regardless of standing water.
As a result I no longer got that twitchiness from the ESP kicking in but could feel the car's inclinations much more directly - Much easier to correct. If the car slides slightly I tend to instinctively stay on the power (and give prayers of thanks to the great god Quaife), but if it snatches in the way ESP works, it feels unnatural and it's very difficult not to instinctively get off the power.
As a first step, I'll be going for C and perhaps graduate towards D like Chris (I'm a very late starter in everything I do!).
:happy2:
-
not quite as brave as chris, on a decent day its always off :driver:
but as autumn and winter set in and the roads get muddy and icey then i leave it on
had a hairy moment earlier this year jan time when Im sure it saved my bacon, whether on not it would have kicked in anyway if esp was off is something I wouldn't want to risk my no claim bonuses for
but I can concur it really does free up the car when turned off :happy2:
-
You know what, I've never switched off my ESP. I think I'm going to go out after watching the X-Factor... :jumping:
-
You know what, I've never switched off my ESP. I think I'm going to go out after watching the X-Factor... :jumping:
be aware of the lift off oversteer
-
You know what, I've never switched off my ESP. I think I'm going to go out after watching the X-Factor... :jumping:
....I think it would be wiser to try it out first time in daylight and on roads you know with plenty of room.
-
You know what, I've never switched off my ESP. I think I'm going to go out after watching the X-Factor... :jumping:
be aware of the lift off oversteer
+1 !!
-
+2 on the lift off oversteer...got it well sideways once at Quarry (castle combe) during a track day. :grin:
-
Thanks for the words of caution... it's really moving :love:
I think I'll go and have a weep in private. :confused:
I'll be careful boyz..... I love my car too much.
P.S. Did I ever tell you about my near death-defying and "unplanned" power slide near Bristol. I won't say how fast I was going... I do miss the original MUBster.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnr3vvg.blu.livefilestore.com%2Fy1pqlC1A4KeyZZzYjeMj_eq5SG9B6rQituTqOQeug5AtaDln_Or-JcBFCi0y0rqEd747OJEe8af09XO-KguViNY7oGkhBjRsxWV%2FM12%2520MUB%2520%288%29.jpg&hash=288134220b7286f7686fe06cc7491f64233b68b1)
-
+2 on the lift off oversteer...got it well sideways once at Quarry (castle combe) during a track day. :grin:
I think we had a little sideways motion at the Combe in my .:R didn't we Lee! :scared: :grin:
-
^^^^
Ah, those Beemers are well known for being easy to put sideways! But they are relatively easy to correct. I still love BMW's though :love:
-
I turn it off in good weather. :happy2:
-
Thanks for the words of caution... it's really moving :love:
I think I'll go and have a weep in private. :confused:
I don't think anyone was being condescending towards you, if you got that impression?
The lift-off oversteer seems more pronounced on the Golf than a lot of other FWD cars that I've driven, so I guess others who commented on that have experienced the same.
-
Thanks for the words of caution... it's really moving :love:
I think I'll go and have a weep in private. :confused:
I don't think anyone was being condescending towards you, if you got that impression?
The lift-off oversteer seems more pronounced on the Golf than a lot of other FWD cars that I've driven, so I guess others who commented on that have experienced the same.
I didn't think anything of the remarks.
Everyone here is good as gold. I know everyone is looking out for each other.
-
Thanks for the words of caution... it's really moving :love:
I think I'll go and have a weep in private. :confused:
The lift-off oversteer seems more pronounced on the Golf than a lot of other FWD cars that I've driven, so I guess others who commented on that have experienced the same.
Yeah first time I turned the esp off I went round a roundabout not even that quick and the car slid big time unexpectedly. Its easy to get it to slide out, but its not exactly favourable with a mapped car as it gets up to speed so quickly and wouldnt fancy counter steering at higher speeds.
-
Ive never switched mine off..
just used to having it on..
-
I always switch mine off, I didnt have it on my last car and have had a few instances where i have put my foot down to pull out of a junction and its nearly thrown me through the window, I dont like it at all and never use it, and as someone has said it still cuts in when really required :happy2:
-
....
Thank goodness that the Golf platform has the option to switch ESP off, or at least that it switches off the intrusive bit when spirited driving.
I hate all that Adapative Control stuff on recent cars - The logical conclusion is that such systems could eventually mean that the 'driver' doesn't have to engage his/her brain at all! Mind you, some already don't engage their brain!
-
Mmm a whole thread on turning off ESP that cannot actually be turned off??
Or am I missing something - maybe you can turn it off if you modify the car?
Presumably if you modify you are improving the handling of the car so the ESP which works on the monitoring the wheel sensors rotational speeds will come on less and less anyway?
I seem to remember some video laps of OEM MkV GTI on the now departed Driver's Republic where the inablity to completely shut down the ESP was unfavourably commented on - OEM Honda Civic VTEC (the one with the hard suspension) did very similar lap times with the same driver - similar power cars but the intrusiveness of the Golf GTI ESP interferred with the driver input limiting absolute performance.
-
Just by pressing the ESP button, it stops ESP coming on in most circumstances but it will still intervene when things go horribly wrong.
If you hold the ESP button for 10 seconds, it turns everything off I believe, including the ABS. This was confirmed on a recent log that Dom did for me because one of my fault codes was something like 'failure to communicate with ABS module' ...or something along those lines.
No fault code was apparent before the ESP button had been pressed in that way, and only earlier that day i had the ABS going crazy :laugh:
Interesting stuff!
I've asked for clarification on the ESP systems from T_T on many occasions, but he never actually steps up to offer an explanation.....
-
Mmm a whole thread on turning off ESP that cannot actually be turned off??
....I think it's been established that switching the ESP button to Off doesn't switch absolutely everything off. So we are discussing the pros and cons of using the 'ESP Off' setting as provided by VAG in our platform cars.
Presumably if you modify you are improving the handling of the car so the ESP which works on the monitoring the wheel sensors rotational speeds will come on less and less anyway?
....Good point. The ESP sensors work 'SMART-ly' (Self-Monitoring, Analysis and Reporting Technology) and so will only react and instruct according to what they are subjected to. In my direct experience I have found that since installing the Quaife ATB diff, instances of the flashing yellow ESP icon have been significantly reduced. Of course, such behaviour is dependent on having sufficient tyre grip.
Mentioned again because it was a very good test, we (an instructor and myself) found that the only times we induced the ESP light in the wet at Spa in a 15-lap session of hard driving was when on the white lines after La Source hairpin when laying down the power. In other words, my very modified suspension and brakes etc as a whole, greatly influence and reduce the ESP intrusion.
I seem to remember some video laps of OEM MkV GTI on the now departed Driver's Republic where the inablity to completely shut down the ESP was unfavourably commented on - OEM Honda Civic VTEC (the one with the hard suspension) did very similar lap times with the same driver - similar power cars but the intrusiveness of the Golf GTI ESP interferred with the driver input limiting absolute performance.
....I'm undecided whether it's a good thing or a bad thing not to be able to switch off the ESP entirely on the Golf platform. I think the latest VW ESP system (on the Golf R) is reported to be even more 'trackday-friendly'.
As Chris (WhiteGTI) says, I have also heard of the 10-second trick from Mark at VWR.
According to Keith at APR, "the Mk5 ESP retards timing as its main weapon" and is far better than the Mk4.
I think it's fairly well proven that ESP generally improves road safety and reduces accidents and so its sensible for most drivers to keep it on for most ordinary road use.
-
Has anyone else had it where the epc light comes on, sticks the car in limp mode, and also brings up the traction control light and low tyre pressure light at the same time? Then when the car takes itself out of limp mode the traction control system will still be off until you restart the car?
-
Nope :confused:
Just read your signature...I like! :grin:
-
Nope :confused:
Just read your signature...I like! :grin:
....Talking of ugly women, Chris - Heads up for Eva Mendez in Ghost Rider movie Ch5 9:00pm tonight. She might get your ESP light flashing!
-
Nope :confused:
Just read your signature...I like! :grin:
....Talking of ugly women, Chris - Heads up for Eva Mendez in Ghost Rider movie Ch5 9:00pm tonight. She might get your ESP light flashing!
Hahaha! I rented it a few months ago! Not a great film,but seeing her in such skin-tight clothing was brilliant!
Did you catch her on Friday Night with Jonathan Ross a few weeks ago??
-
^^^^
No I missed Eva on Jonothong Woss but I did see my favourite.....Sandra Bullock :love: :notworthy: - Intelligent and natural beauty.
Why is it that it's nearly always the subject of women which takes threads off topic?
-
Isn't it annoying that the light keeps flashing if you turn off the ESP?
-
Isn't it annoying that the light keeps flashing if you turn off the ESP?
That only happens on the later 08 cars :happy2:
-
Yeah that is a feature of the late MY08 cars I think!
-
Feature or no feature - it's driving me crazy!
-
Feature or no feature - it's driving me crazy!
....Put some black insulation tape over it perhaps.
Just to confirm: It doesn't flash on my 06-build 05-plate car.
-
It must have been a mid 08MY change. Mine is one of the first 08MY and it does not flash when turned off.
-
Whats the MY short for? And RR thanks for the sticky tape suggestion... :fighting:
-
If you hold the ESP button for 10 seconds, it turns everything off I believe, including the ABS.
I have to say I'm surprised to hear that it disables the ABS too :surprised: , are you absolutely sure?
-
Whats the MY short for? And RR thanks for the sticky tape suggestion... :fighting:
Model yearNope :confused:
Just read your signature...I like! :grin:
I like it too :signLOL:
-
Sorry to drag up an old thread, but I was interested to read peoples opinions of the ESP having had my GTI for a week.
I'm an 'Application Engineer' for JLR working on ESP which basically means I'm one of the people who decide when and how the ABS modulator intervenes amongst other things, so this being the first car I've owned that has ESP, it's interesting to experience how other companies go about setting the systems up.
Generally I've found myself leaving it on most of the time, and turning it off on a good B road. I think the way the system intervenes is very good, but it seems a little conservative and I think it actually leaves you thinking the car is more unstable than it actually is. It could be down to having newer tyres on the back, but I'm also getting the occasional 'false intervention' on long sweeping corners when off throttle (i.e. motorway off ramps). Anyone else getting this?
The traction control is actually very well judged and it's actually doing a lot more than it lets on. It's actually pretty tough to work out that it's reigning in the torque fairly early rather than spinning things up and then resorting to harsh brake interventions, but I'm surprised they don't flash the light for some of the brake interventions with the ESP.
Overall....I'm pretty sure you'd be faster on track without it on, and I think I'd have allowed a bit more lateral acceleration, but overall it seems pretty reasonable.
-
@ you experienced 1/4 mile drivers, would the preference be to have ESP on or off for the strip?
I was thinking particularly the Pod which has a greasy surface compared to somewhere like Bruntingthorpe PG which is usually dry - would it differ depending on 1/4 mile surface?
Ta :happy2:
-
Worth trying with and without, but the system will aim for a target wheel slip and hold it so it doesn't matter what surface you're on, it should achieve that slip %age and hold it until it sees the wheels regaining grip.
-
Overall....I'm pretty sure you'd be faster on track without it on, and I think I'd have allowed a bit more lateral acceleration, but overall it seems pretty reasonable.
This is not the case, at least for me. I did a 20 minute session at the Nurburgring GP circuit in May and i did about ten laps with the ESP on. Got very confident so passenger suggested switching it off. The car was so much faster with it off, much easier to control and nearly all trace of wheel spin disappeared. My passenger had been timing all the laps from about 3 or 4 and once the ESP was off all my laps thereafter were 3 or 4 seconds faster. :happy2:
I cant see any point switching it off on public roads as you really shouldn't be travelling at speeds were you can take advantage of the system being off, especially on a tuned car with uprated suspension but on track the ESP system on a GTI is just a hinderance. I think on proper sports cars the systems are far more advanced and can help out. I remember on Top Gear a couple of top end super cars were un- drivable with ESP off. :happy2:
-
Sorry....my wording was a bit unclear there. I said I think the car's faster without it on :wink: So totally agree with you. It tends to hold you below limit which is not the fastest way round a track and it also tends falsely intervene every now and again.
Every manufacturer has different standards and expectations from ESP tuning, and the way the systems intervene is very much down to company policy/personal choice. Ultimately someone has tuned the ESP in the car to their personal interpretation of the company policy. It's a Conti ESP system and their pretty good at tuning the systems, and I think the way it comes in is very good, it's just a bit early, so I suspect VW wanted it to be seen as a 'Safety System' in the true definition of the term. It does actually actuate without the light coming on which you may not notice. Next time you're out, find a long smooth, wide sweeping corner and build the speed up gradually. Fairly early on, you can hear the ABS pump running. It sounds like a rough 'cchhhrrr' and will last for about half a second.
You're right, that if you're heavily leaning on the system on the road, the speeds are a bit much, but I tend to find it's little nudges early on a bit intrusive on a B road!
As for the supercar systems....their actually identical! It's all in the tuning :wink: The main differences you get in more expensive modulators are more pumps which improve refinement and reduce the pedal feedback. The Conti ESP though can and does brake individual wheels and it's definitely able to request a torque cut from the engine when it's managing traction. The amount of time/effort that goes in to tuning a system is fairly incredibly considering most drivers will only ever use the function for probably a maximum of a few seconds in the cars life!
-
:happy2: