MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => How to Guides / Troubleshooting => Topic started by: cuprak1 on October 26, 2009, 10:15:31 am
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The PCV system on the 2.0T is a complex one but nothing that's to difficult to figure out once you cut it apart on the bandsaw
The first thing to do is identify what all of these ports are doing.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bshspeedshop.com%2Fimages%2Fpcvfunction.jpg&hash=644c6568cad233a06e047b071d106ab60497f90b)
PCV Gasses enter the valve cover through the port labeled Crank Inlet .
Once inside the valve cover there are a series of chambers, baffles, and drains. As gasses move through these ports they will eventually come to the Vacuum Control Diaphragm and Diagnostic Port.
The vacuum control diaphragm is used while the car is in vacuum. When vacuum is applied to the diaphragm it is sucked down to limit the amount of draw applied to everything behind it. In factory orientation if this diaphragm were to become ripped it would allow so much vacuum to be applied to the pcv system that oil would literally be sucked out of the head and into the motor.
Heading towards the intake manifold there is a Check Valve This is the valve that is known for failing on these cars. When working properly this valve opens under vacuum and closes under boost.
When in vacuum pcv gasses are pulled through the diagnostic port and into the intake manifold. When in boost the pcv gasses go out the other side of the diagnostic port and into a passage molded into the valve cover then out the Rear Outlet
You can follow along with the flow of gasses through this image.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bshspeedshop.com%2Fimages%2Fpcvdiagram.JPG&hash=8338981c02afbc77c4665f93565d281d7302308a)
So what this all boils down to is that there is no "Front" or "Rear" PCV. Its all one system. What people refer to as a rear pcv is just a passage built into the valve cover. A few of the different revisions had different check valve orientation but the function and layout is the same across all the cars.
I hope that taught you something about your toy!
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You're welcome. :wink:
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You're welcome. :wink:
Who is. :chicken:
I think you got that wrong your suppose to say hi my name is Phil and we say your welcome here. :signLOL: :happy2:
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You're welcome. :wink:
Hi Phil!
Great to see you on here and welcome aboard :drinking:
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You're welcome. :wink:
Who is. :chicken:
I think you got that wrong your suppose to say hi my name is Phil and we say your welcome here. :signLOL: :happy2:
The OP is. I wrote that and made all the diagrams :wink: I dont mind though!
However, hi my name is Phill, thanks for having me on the site!
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You're welcome. :wink:
Who is. :chicken:
I think you got that wrong your suppose to say hi my name is Phil and we say your welcome here. :signLOL: :happy2:
The OP is. I wrote that and made all the diagrams :wink:
However, hi my name is Phill, thanks for having me on the site!
I know you did. :happy2:
Welcome to the forum Phil. :drinking:
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You're welcome. :wink:
Who is. :chicken:
I think you got that wrong your suppose to say hi my name is Phil and we say your welcome here. :signLOL: :happy2:
The OP is. I wrote that and made all the diagrams :wink:
However, hi my name is Phill, thanks for having me on the site!
I know you did. :happy2:
Welcome to the forum Phil. :drinking:
Thanks, this seems like a really good forum.
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^^^ Thanks Phil.
Good to see you have finally found us :happy2:
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credit to BSH for the thread :happy2:
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Very informative thread..
im still trying to get my head round the stage 1 & catch can fixes.. i understand that stage 1 is just a fit & forget system where as the catch can catches all the gunk.. so in the case of the stage 1 fix where does all this gunk go.. is it just recirculated back where it comes from.. is this any good for the engine.. why is the engine trying to get rid of it in the first place?
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nice one , added link into 2.0 TFSI : PCV / Intake valve clogging : what/why/common solutions (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=7040)
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Very informative thread..
im still trying to get my head round the stage 1 & catch can fixes.. i understand that stage 1 is just a fit & forget system where as the catch can catches all the gunk.. so in the case of the stage 1 fix where does all this gunk go.. is it just recirculated back where it comes from.. is this any good for the engine.. why is the engine trying to get rid of it in the first place?
Allow me to help you with this. Crank case pressures and blowby gasses are a natural part of the combustion process. In order to achieve a smooth running, efficient motor these pressures and gasses need to be vented as otherwise the engines rotation would have to work against these pressures. Emissions requirements for all modern vehicles require these gasses to be recirculated and burned off. The process of how this is done on the 2.0T FSI is explained in the first post of this thread.
The problem with the factory design is it gives a clear path for positive pressure (boost) to act on the crank ventilation system. In theory the design should work, however in reality the factory check valves leak even on brand new from the dealer parts. This leads to a poor idle, loss of performance, oil being blown all over the place etc. The stage 1 system we offer maintains the factory routing as if the car was always in boost. It utilizes the twin oil separators (one in the oil cooler housing, one in the valve cover as seen above) these are the factory provisions which are decently affective but not even close to perfect. The gasses that are recirculated go through the intercooler piping instead of the alternative is to expose them directly to the intake manifold and intake valve which have no cleaning agent (fuel) passing through do to the direct injection will lead to build up on the valves which creates a huge list of running and performance issues and is an absolute pain to clean.
This brings us to the catch can systems. The catch can systems take the initial design of the stage 1 kit with its benefits of removing boost from ever acting on the pcv system and the other preventative measures and takes it a step further by providing a baffled container to hold blowby gasses to prevent them making its way back into the motor. Our systems are substantially better than the ebay type parts as not only do they come with necessary vehicle components but also a properly designed baffled catch can. We offer three options, Street, Competition, and Race. Each of these systems have their own sets of charecteristics that allow customers to tailor their part selection to their individual needs.
Both the Street and Competition systems are recirculating systems. Meaning, the pressures are returned to the intake after passing through a can designed to separate oil blowby. The path to the intake also has the benefit of creating a draw to the crank case which pulls pressure out. The caveat is that the recirculated system will still allow a small amount of blowby to pass, clearly nothing close to what would of otherwise ended up in the motor however.
The race system is a Vent to Atmosphere (VTA) and has completely different design which utilizes the pressure differential between the crank case and the atmosphere to vent the pressure. Since vacuum is no longer applied to the system we made the very important design decisions to bring in a second port (one for the block, one for the head) to properly vent all the pressures just using the difference in pressures. Properly designed VTA systems will allow 0 blowby to re-enter the motor and is the best choice in this regard. The trade off for this system is since the gasses are vented to atmosphere there is a scent associated with it and the car will not pass a visual emissions inspection in areas where recirculated crank case gasses are required. This is the system we use on our 500 bhp 2.0t FSI.
As you can see, each of our pcv solutions has their own target market allowing all customers to cater their project needs with our parts. This info should be found helpful for anyone who is in the researching stage.
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^^^^
Thankyou, Phil :happy2:
Is it the 'Street' or 'Competition' version which we have all bought via Dubtek's Group Buy?
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^^^ We have street cans.
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Thanks for the in-depth reply phil.. so am i right in thinking that with the stage 1 fix it prevents any of the oil etc. ever touching the intake valves?
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so am i right in thinking that with the stage 1 fix it prevents any of the oil etc. ever touching the intake valves?
Unfortunately no.
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so the only way would-be via the catch tank method stage 2?
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Yup, catch can or a vent to atmosphere setup.
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Yup, catch can or a vent to atmosphere setup.
This is correct. Thank you.
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might fit the catch can to the s3 tomorrow can some one con firm which hose goes where ? looking from the front towards the windscreen left union to .............. , right union to ................... of the catch can ???????????????/ :happy2:
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Right fitting to side of catch can / left fitting to top of catch can is the advised orientation, although it can be plumbed in either way with no ill effect.
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thats the opposite to whats said on the other thread !!!!!! :confused:
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thats the opposite to whats said on the other thread !!!!!! :confused:
Then why bother asking the question here and also starting a new thread if your so sure? I myself fitted my catch can as per the instructions on the BSH website but since changed after being advised by Phil @ BSH. Have you actually read through this thread? http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=8243.30 (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=8243.30)
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Then why bother asking the question here and also starting a new thread if your so sure? I myself fitted my catch can as per the instructions on the BSH website but since changed after being advised by Phil @ BSH. Have you actually read through this thread? http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=8243.30 (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=8243.30)
....Because it is (and certainly has been) a bit confusing and because we are supposed to be here to help each other by speaking to each other a tad more politely. Not everybody manages to read every single thread and post.
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thats the opposite to whats said on the other thread !!!!!! :confused:
Then why bother asking the question here and also starting a new thread if your so sure? I myself fitted my catch can as per the instructions on the BSH website but since changed after being advised by Phil @ BSH. Have you actually read through this thread? http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=8243.30 (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=8243.30)
you need to chill out mate :fighting2:
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^^^
How do I? You asked a question and i thought i'd help by giving you the answer you were looking for, only for you to question it. I was merely pointing out that you needn't ask the question in the first place if you thought you already knew the answer and all you were going to do is doubt peoples advice.
Anyway no offence was intended and i hope the fitting of the can goes well. :happy2:
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Anyway no offence was intended and i hope the fitting of the can goes well. :happy2:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagecache5.art.com%2Fp%2FLRG%2F8%2F853%2F7TSY000Z%2Fwhite-buddha.jpg&hash=e07e3c5676f6797688566571e3235a094e44a566)
:happy2: Peace :grouphug:
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this is how the catch can should look if u ask me
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1ltr-Oil-Catch-Tank-MINI-classic-and-bmw-jcw-cooper-s_W0QQitemZ270478455592QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item3ef9c5b328#ht_944wt_941
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this is how the catch can should look if u ask me
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1ltr-Oil-Catch-Tank-MINI-classic-and-bmw-jcw-cooper-s_W0QQitemZ270478455592QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item3ef9c5b328#ht_944wt_941
....I couldn't agree more!
Funny you should post that - I'm looking at very very similar. :wink:
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now that i would fit to mine :smiley:
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....
*cough*
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi22.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb308%2FRedRobin_05%2FCatchCan_DD.jpg&hash=df9f854c281a1e20de7c76f63defe9832fa83fc8)
Plus some SS braided hoses from Dubtek : -
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fb308%2FRedRobin_05%2FHEL_truckside.jpg&hash=246d06c34682b86031dec3d2a973aaf12eb1a163)
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Lovely! Any more details?
Vick :smiley:
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Lovely! Any more details?
Vick :smiley:
....Which are you referring to, Vick? My post or Mat's
:happy2:
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he is on about yours mate
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^^^^
All will be revealed in due course :wink:
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^^^^
All will be revealed in due course :wink:
I need one soon tho RedRobin :laugh: :P :smiley:
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Naturally I am biased however please take this seriously. Those catch cans are simply a hollow gut with no baffles to promote separation. Also factor in that the line size is dangerously small and you really are creating more work for yourselves. We tested the cheaper cans and had nothing but headaches and a ton of oil being pushed through turbo seals creating monstrous smoke screens out the exhaust. User beware.
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Naturally I am biased however please take this seriously. Those catch cans are simply a hollow gut with no baffles to promote separation. Also factor in that the line size is dangerously small and you really are creating more work for yourselves. We tested the cheaper cans and had nothing but headaches and a ton of oil being pushed through turbo seals creating monstrous smoke screens out the exhaust. User beware.
....Thankyou for posting this info - Further research tells me that baffles appear to be very important and also can even stop oil returning under heavy braking and cornering etc (though I think it would have to pretty extreme movement).
So, the BSH can has baffles? Consideration of the line size seems very valid too.
So I'm gonna be returning the pretty carbon can I've been lent. I may swop your hoses for some of Dubtek's pretty SS braided ones though.
What I do wish what your can had, is a practical means of knowing how full it is. In my opinion the car owner should be able to visually and easily check the levels of as many of the fluids as possible.
Something I don't like about the Forge can is that, although it has a sight tube, its installation on a UK car means that the windscreen washer fluid bottle neck is swopped for a solid one so that you can't keep it topped up so easily. Plus it's a somewhat unnecessary extra expense for the kit.
Although it took me a while to understand how your emptying tap works [thanx stokeballoon], I have to say that it's the most reliable looking one I've seen. Just a loose bolt isn't very confidence inspiring in the presence of much lubricant.
:drinking:
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RR with the position of your catch can, you should easily be able to accomodate the larger BSH can that incoperates a dipstick to check on hoow full the can is... :smiley:
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RR with the position of your catch can, you should easily be able to accomodate the larger BSH can that incoperates a dipstick to check on hoow full the can is... :smiley:
.... :signLOL: - I'm laughing because I have literally just come in from my garage and, among other checks, was looking at where else I could move my catch can to if/when I decide to install an air intake (Forge Twintake being current favourite), and I was thinking how glad I was that the BSH one is so slim and I could relocate it where most others have done near the charcoal cannister.
But I'll check out the larger one anyway because of the dipstick. Another option is for me to extend the bracket to possibly miss an air filter. It's all good fun.
Thanks for telling me anyway, bacillus :drinking:
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^^^^
I've just checked out the BSH with dipstick and it's called the "Competition" can. I also like that it appears to have the tap on the side, though it depends how easy it is to empty the can without its removal.
Phil, do you have the dimensions please? If I can fit one in the right position for me I can order it through Dubtek. Unless of course I come across another universal can which has a sight feature and looks fancy and is expensive :evilgrin:
ADDENDA:
Ooops! It looks quite a bit bigger : -
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.namotorsports.net%2Fimages%2FBHBSH-FSI-S2Plus-2.jpg&hash=77d7a00234dd50ab995821dd9fca825282f3c8ca)
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Hello RR
This is what I received from BSH when I asked about the sizes:
"The standard slim can is 6.5" Long and 2" round. It maintains 7 fluid oz capacity. The larger can is 8.5" Long and 3" round. It maintains 32 oz of capacity."
I have the larger can sat in the garage ready to fit to my Octavia vRS this weekend.
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^^^^
You got your first Thank You, Mr Bogwoppit! (what a great name!). :drinking:
Do you know yet if you'd have to loosen the P-ring and lift it out to empty?
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Hello RR
This is what I received from BSH when I asked about the sizes:
"The standard slim can is 6.5" Long and 2" round. It maintains 7 fluid oz capacity. The larger can is 8.5" Long and 3" round. It maintains 32 oz of capacity."
I have the larger can sat in the garage ready to fit to my Octavia vRS this weekend.
another vRS good lad
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^^^^
You got your first Thank You, Mr Bogwoppit! (what a great name!). :drinking:
Do you know yet if you'd have to loosen the P-ring and lift it out to empty?
I will have a look later today, hopefully.
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^^^^
You got your first Thank You, Mr Bogwoppit! (what a great name!). :drinking:
Do you know yet if you'd have to loosen the P-ring and lift it out to empty?
I will have a look later today, hopefully.
RR I have the larger can fitted, and can get to the drain quite easily to empty.
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^^^^
Aha, I'm going to be contacting you in the not too distant about S3 brakes fitting and arranging to pop over - Can then have a look at the actual bigger catch can.
Meanwhile I'll look at your BSH catch can thread again for pics.
:drinking:
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....
@ stokeballoon:
I've done a Search but can't find any pics of your bigger BSH catch can. Perhaps you haven't posted any. :smiley:
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wouldnt recommend the larger catch can RR
the V shape for the 2 tube fixings means the pipes look odd when fitted.
too large for most areas to fit . the dipstick works but a sight glass is better
theres also a 90 deg bend piece for the outlet drain now (not shown in that pic)
Id stick with the smaller version (which I'm now waiting for from dubtek)
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^^^^
Useful advice and info, John :happy2:
Yes, my reservations about a dipstick method is the potential for losing the vacuum pressure. Also, dipsticks never fill you with great confidence until you do it several times in one session.
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The dip sticks are JIC threaded with a cone taper for proper sealing. Your more likely to crack the tubing used in most sight tubes then you are to leak at the dip stick. Plus the dip sticks never gum up with residue like the site tubes. Same setup we use on the race cars for both catch cans and fuel cells.
Just want to add that if there is a more suitable fitting positioning and enough interest we are more then happy to make fitting position changes to accommodate the market. We make the parts in house allowing us quite a bit of freedom in what and how.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fphotos-f.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ak-snc3%2Fhs104.snc3%2F15153_165604287279_119076327279_2688668_3522146_n.jpg&hash=83f28ce1b8dfcefd64e572c553bddc23492f2a09)
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Great thread...had my Stage 1 PCV fix installed today... don't know exactly what it still does... but it's fitted... :rolleye:
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The dip sticks are JIC threaded with a cone taper for proper sealing. Your more likely to crack the tubing used in most sight tubes then you are to leak at the dip stick. Plus the dip sticks never gum up with residue like the site tubes. Same setup we use on the race cars for both catch cans and fuel cells.
....That's good to learn - Thanks for that info, Phil :happy2: - It restores my confidence.
Unfortunately for me, your bigger can with the dipstick won't fit in the charcoal cannister area (UK/Euro spec). I've got to refit my catch can back in that area because I'm likely to be getting a Forge Twintake which will fill the area in front of the battery and fuse box.
Just want to add that if there is a more suitable fitting positioning and enough interest we are more then happy to make fitting position changes to accommodate the market. We make the parts in house allowing us quite a bit of freedom in what and how.
....So does that mean that you might be able to supply different brackets?
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Robin, looking at pics of the twintake I wonder if you still might be able to fit the catch can in the headlight area:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F2554%2F4100547393_42cae213c5_b.jpg&hash=c3d372f621e1a757cce1d8c9c592e1df4af2b625)
I have mine in a similar position:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fuu264%2Flivall%2F29102009020.jpg&hash=a35f85130fb74509348c14a9aa697c52c183ca7e)
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^^^^
Good idea! I could perhaps drill two holes in the slam panel and just move it along. The SS braided hoses I'm getting from Dubtek for my catch can are more flexible too - Which will help the routing.
I'm probably going to get the Forge Twintake and go OTT and run an extra air feed via a flexi-hose from the foglight panel. NeilM is also interested in doing this. Where that goes will be the deciding factor.
It looks like there's more room in the GTI's engine bay than the Audi.
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We've wanted to make an international bracket for the catch cans for some time, however the big hurdle has been the R&D as its not something we can just go pick up a car to fit on. Perhaps if someone has removed their charcoal canister they could send it and its bracket to us to fit on a car. Id gladly pay for the part/freight whatever.
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We've wanted to make an international bracket for the catch cans for some time, however the big hurdle has been the R&D as its not something we can just go pick up a car to fit on. Perhaps if someone has removed their charcoal canister they could send it and its bracket to us to fit on a car. Id gladly pay for the part/freight whatever.
....I think I know where I might be able to source one for you. I'll email you directly at BSH after the weekend. You wouldn't want the hose connections etc would you.
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Shoudnt need the hoses, just the charcoal canister.
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(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fphotos-f.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ak-snc3%2Fhs104.snc3%2F15153_165604287279_119076327279_2688668_3522146_n.jpg&hash=83f28ce1b8dfcefd64e572c553bddc23492f2a09)
Is that AFI's car Phil? Looks awesome!!
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Here are some pics of the high capacity catch can fitted to my vRS:
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=7885.15 (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=7885.15)
RR, to open the drain I just wind the wingnut in.