MK5 Golf GTI
General => Random Chat => Topic started by: Nodz on July 17, 2014, 12:10:35 am
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Software will be available at Waterfest 20 and at dealers world wide on Monday, July 21st.
Audi A3 - CNTC - To Be Announced
Skoda Octavia / VRS - CHHB
Volkswagen MK7 Golf GTI - CHHA, CHHB & CNTA
APR Stage I ECU Upgrade Calibration Report
210, 220 & 230 HP & 258 FT-LBS - Stock as reported by VW
235 HP & 270 FT-LBS of torque - Stock as mesured and estimated at the crank by APR
305 HP & 371 FT-LBS of torque +78 HP @ 3,950 RPM / +105 FT-LBS of Torque @ 3,700 RPM - 91 AKI / 95 RON
316 HP & 381 FT-LBS of torque +87 HP @ 4,050 RPM / +114 FT-LBS of Torque @ 3,800 RPM - 93 AKI / 98 RON
328 HP & 382 FT-LBS of torque +97 HP @ 4,150 RPM / +125 FT-LBS of Torque @ 3,900 RPM - 104 AKI / 108 RON
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?7007282-APR-Presents-the-MK7-GTI-ECU-Upgrade
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Mental... makes you wonder what they're going to do with the S3/Golf R engine
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These figures are crazy, imagine what a stage 2+ will achieve.... :scared: :scared:
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The APR car with no PP did a 13.1 @ 110 on 98RON too, very impressive from just a stage 1.
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If they are getting 300 hp grin a stage 1 ill be coming back to a VAG again
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Very impressive figures. :drinking:
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If they are getting 300 hp grin a stage 1 ill be coming back to a VAG again
You better get ready to return then!
Golf R/S3/Cupra 280 figures look close to 350-355 from what I've seen so far :jumping:
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The Golf R/S3/Cupra 280 will need a bigger intercooler pretty much ASAP
Even on standard tune my engine gets sooooo hot that underneath the bonnet cant be touched for about 2 hours, heat is unbelievable
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I was amazed by the amount of heat shielding under there. There is even some on the bonnet itself. :surprised:
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Yeh there is on mine and it needs it :sad1:
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Scooby bonnet vent? :laugh:
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Wow at those figures, be interesting to see if they are indeed factual.
I hope VW have fully sorted the chain tensioner and oil starvation issues on this engine..?
They have the same bottom as the generation 1 EA888, so oil starvation is still an issue. :sad1:
Only drive in straight lines in these :wink:
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Wow at those figures, be interesting to see if they are indeed factual.
I hope VW have fully sorted the chain tensioner and oil starvation issues on this engine..?
They have the same bottom as the generation 1 EA888, so oil starvation is still an issue. :sad1:
Only drive in straight lines in these :wink:
Would that APR Oil starvation kit not alleviate this issue?
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Wow at those figures, be interesting to see if they are indeed factual.
I hope VW have fully sorted the chain tensioner and oil starvation issues on this engine..?
They have the same bottom as the generation 1 EA888, so oil starvation is still an issue. :sad1:
Only drive in straight lines in these :wink:
Would that APR Oil starvation kit not alleviate this issue?
it will also alleviate your wallet :laugh:
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How about a baffled sump?
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Theres an S3 with just a tuning box nothing else pulling 3.7 secs to 60 and 8.92 to 100mph. This platform will have insane performance when stage 2 and hardware is added :evilgrin: :innocent:
And forget about just looking at the power, look at that torque from just a map 114 ft-lb increase!!!
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Lots of discussion about stealth monitoring of ecus....evidently they clock the fact that the car is mapped and don't mention it hoping you'll get through warranty period without issue.....want to make a claim......errrrr sorry sir 247 days ago we spotted your car was mapped and we never said anything so your blown turbo has been fixed and you owe us £8k
Remove able Tuning box at the moment chaps......
Merc/BMW doin it for years evidently....
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Revo have just released their stage 1 aswell for the golf R 365hp :laugh:
Ive herd one or two tuners have got around the td1 but still working on the map, be interesting to see if true!
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Exciting times, these new engines have massive potential.
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You can only imagine the performance at stage 3!!
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What Dave said with BMW's F series ECUs, they can only be bench flashed and that is a whole world of pain with regard to impromptu dealer visits, time taken to perform, losing maps with updates etc . Only they also know when tuning boxes have been plugged in, and log that too. JuiceBoxes claim to be able to wipe that record (although I imagine non-spec boost/fuel/etc levels will still be logged?)... but you're putting a lot of faith in trusting the JB has cleared it should you have to claim.
They've all cottoned on to how much they're spending in warranty claims to fix badly tuned cars. It only stands to reason they want to reduce that. It also means the introduction of manufacturer approved tuning, BMW already has its M-Performance line or Alpina. Mini their JCW stuff.... etc etc etc.
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Why don't VAG have an authorised tuning company/deal. Like brabus. Thus retaining warrenty.
Dad's just got a new S3.... Probably fast enough for him as is :signLOL:
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APR's GTI7 making more torque than REVO's 7R?
APR GTI7: STAGE 1: 316 HP - 381 lb/ft
REVO 7R: STAGE 1: 365 HP - 354 lb/ft
Is the R400 an S2+ 7R ? Or does the R400 have a bigger turbo for even more exploitation? :laugh:
APR could have a massive spike though and drop off very fast.
There's a dyno graph on Revos site and it holds the torque very very well.
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APR's GTI7 making more torque than REVO's 7R?
APR GTI7: STAGE 1: 316 HP - 381 lb/ft
REVO 7R: STAGE 1: 365 HP - 354 lb/ft
Is the R400 an S2+ 7R ? Or does the R400 have a bigger turbo for even more exploitation? :laugh:
APR could have a massive spike though and drop off very fast.
There's a dyno graph on Revos site and it holds the torque very very well.
the 315Hp figure was with race fuel according to VWVortex
That said, from dyno days ive done the K03 has often outperformed the K04 for torque
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APR's GTI7 making more torque than REVO's 7R?
APR GTI7: STAGE 1: 316 HP - 381 lb/ft
REVO 7R: STAGE 1: 365 HP - 354 lb/ft
Is the R400 an S2+ 7R ? Or does the R400 have a bigger turbo for even more exploitation? :laugh:
APR could have a massive spike though and drop off very fast.
There's a dyno graph on Revos site and it holds the torque very very well.
the 315Hp figure was with race fuel according to VWVortex
That said, from dyno days ive done the K03 has often outperformed the K04 for torque
315bhp was on 93 octane (equal to 98RON UK)
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The 7R must be my next car. :jumping:
3.7 to 60 in a MK6 R takes stage 2+ mod levels :confused:
This shouldn't get dirty valves or cam follower problems either :jumpmove:
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This made me laugh. :grin: :grin:
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MQB is lighter
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Cant help but think that 100kg strapline is a bit misleading, much is said about the ali suspension on the MQB but its no different to a TT2 and the 7R suspension DNA is definitely 8PS3 with admittedly a weight reduction program.
Im almost certain you could retrofit 7R uprights to a 2007 S3 or a 2005 Mk5
They may have got rid of 100kg on certain mid range models but id be interested in a back to back weight comparison 8PS3/8VS3 bog basic car with no extras
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Parkers list the following:
8P3 S3
3 Door Manual 1455kg
3 Door S Tronic 1475kg
Sportback Manual 1495kg
Sportback S Tronic 1515kg
8V S3
3 Door Manual 1395kg
3 Door S Tronic 1415kg
Sportback Manual 1425kg
Sportback S Tronic 1445kg
So according to them, the three door cars are 60kg lighter, and the Sportbacks are 70kg lighter
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The Golf R only weighs 1410kg, which is lighter than a mk5 GTI.
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I thought the 5 door mk5 GTi weighed 1357kg
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In RedRobin's suspension review he had the car weighed and it was 1492kg (5 door DSG)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FMods%2FVWR_Weightingpre.jpg&hash=49a37fadcce2fc342e018e231db2a13de7b957ff)
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That will have been a wet car, with him in it. That's the idea of corner weighting.
You want to be looking for the EU DIN weight, all fluids, 90% fuel, base trim (no extras), tools, spare wheel etc. basically as it sits on your drive ready to go.
You may also see EU EG, which is the same as DIN + a 75kg driver.
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Finding those figures on t'interweb is like locating a needle in a haystack.
The 1410kg I quoted is from the Autocar road test and I doubt they sucked all the fluids out to weigh the car. If RR were to weigh 82kg, which would bring his car down to the same 1410, the mk7 R is still pretty light in comparison being AWD...
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Oh, I'm not doubting the 7R is light. Just the minefield of comparisons as you've said.
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Quote VW's website
"Like all Golf MKVIIs, the Golf R is lighter than its predecessor, with a kerb weight of 1476kg (1495kg for DSG), which is 45kg less than the MKVI and just 94kg more than the MKVII GTI with PP".
You can't get around the fact diffs/driveshafts/etc weigh something, but at least it's low down.
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Autocar quoted the 1495 figure (test car was DSG), but found it to be 1410. Maybe the VW weight includes a driver?
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That kind of makes sense. PITA for sure trying to get a straight fact on stuff like this. :)
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For reference, the Leon Cupra test was 1441 claimed, 1400 actual for a DSG 3 door, so pretty amazing that the R can get within 10kg of a very similar car that only has 2 driven wheels.
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Does this mean the new s1 will have 360bhp on stage 1!!!
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Does this mean the new s1 will have 360bhp on stage 1!!!
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,86569.0.html (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,86569.0.html)
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Does this mean the new s1 will have 360bhp on stage 1!!!
I'm still unsure what engine is in the S1, some people say it's the new GTI engine, but I think it's the old K04 TFSI lump?
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Fair play to Revo being upfront that their MQB map will be detectable by VW and will register a TD1 flag, would definitely make me think about the potential loss of engine/drivetrain warranty given the amount of S3/Golf R turbos that have failed already...
Taken from the Revo site ........IS REVO SOFTWARE UNDETECTABLE? SALES SUPPORT
By law, Revo and our Authorised Dealers have to inform you that you are making a modification to your vehicle. This modification should be declared to insurance companies. There are modification friendly insurance companies out there, just keep looking.
The long and short answer is 'No, Revo software is not undetectable'.
On first glance, there is no reason for your dealer to realise that your engines ECU has Revo Software flashed. Revo create all of our software from full factory software, and write an entire software file to the ECU, as opposed to “data area” files used by other tuners.
As the ECU will ID, DTC check, and function as it would with factory software, switched to Stock Mode using an SPS it is virtually undetectable by the main dealer. Dealer tools are constantly evolving to incorporate new technology, there is always a possibility that main dealer tools could see that an ECU has been modified and isn’t stock.
If of course the dealer drives the vehicle in performance mode it will be obvious to the driver that the car has been modified. This could be confirmed by data logging the car and seeing that certain requested ECU parameters are higher than expected for a standard vehicle. The long and short of it is we cannot guaranty the software will go un-noticed by the main dealer.
NOTE: As of 2013, the VW Group online dealer tools have the ability to see software on any modified vehicle. When a modified vehicle is plugged in online it is flagged on the system, this flag is called TD1 please read the below overview:
TD1is the VW Audi Group warranty ‘Flag’ for a vehicle that has been modified, this is something you should all be well aware of. If you’re not then please note; since the change in main dealer on-line diagnostic tools throughout 2013 performance software can and will be seen when a vehicle is plugged into online at a main dealer. This is the case even if it’s switched to ‘stock’ mode, it is possible although not confirmed that TD1 could be flagged if a vehicle has been flashed with any tool other than the OEM online system. Our recommendation to all our dealers is to make the vehicle owner aware that their warranty will be affected if they have software installed on their vehicle; this isn’t anything new as we’ve never claimed software is undetectable however prior to the new main dealer systems Revo software did tend to go unnoticed.
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Fair play. I wander who got theirs flagged up at the dealers to make revo do a press release like that
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I'd imagine that due to the widespread knowledge of the TD1 flag and the new ODIS diagnostic system on the MQB replacing VAS that they had to be honest from the start once that the knew their software wouldn't circumvent the system?
Probably find that other map providers software will flag the TD1 too? Let's see whether they are as transparent as Revo..
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Does this mean the new s1 will have 360bhp on stage 1!!!
I'm still unsure what engine is in the S1, some people say it's the new GTI engine, but I think it's the old K04 TFSI lump?
With the problems of the new TSI engine (chain slip and oil starvation) I'd prefer the TFSI lump tbh... at least until things are well and truly worked out --- and would be extremely hesitant about mapping one for all the mentioned reasons.
A Stage 2+ TFSI one should have a slightly better power (360) to weight (1320) ratio (272) than a 996 Turbo. :party: Probably enough. :laugh:
On the old mk6 tsi maybe, but ive herd of no issues of chain slip or oil starvation on the new tsi, do you have a link? Turbos failing yes but vw/audi have a revised turbo out apparently fitted to my15 cars. Well it has a different part number anyway. Wasn't the oil starvation only a problem when on track?
The fact is the new platform is leagues ahead in every way.
Also tuning boxes have matched Revo stage 1 figures like for like so just fit one of them if your that bothered. The old 2.0tfsi is old news, great engine but been there done that and moved on!
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Jury's out on those being 'stealth' too. (EDIT) on some applications, the ECU logs abnormal boost/fuel/etc and raises a flag, unless you have the ability to wipe that, I think you're heading down the same creek.
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Well an S3 had one with turbo failure and got sorted under warranty... Also had a forge intercooler...
Whos to say the ecu or some over controller that controls boost wasn't faulty that caused the higher boost reading?
With no trace of a box cant see how they're gonna say that was the cause.
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This is all hearsay anyway, no one knows definitively what the ecu can and cant read, does and does not flag. Bit of fact mixed with speculation and scaremongering going on, mostly by people that don't even own one :laugh:
Both DTUK and TMC say definitively their boxes cant be seen...
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Oh for sure, and it certainly helps if the dealer is on your side and happy not to grass you up to VAG.
Tuning boxes have caused warranty issues in the BMW world of late. I'm totally making assumptions about the VAG ones, but they're not daft and it stands to reason they'd want to wriggle out of claims wherever possible. They're suddenly, and aggressively looking for evidence of tuning.
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After spending £35k on a car id be pretty pi$$ed if the dealer took Audi's side and grassed me up for something they could put through as warranty on a standard looking car.
As long as the car is standard when at the dealers I don't think they'd have a problem, just got to roll the dice on that one though :rolleye:
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Anyone got a RR graph for a stock 300PS 2.0TSI from the MQB chassis?
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I did have but dunno where it is now. Made 301hp and about 290ftlbs though.
One here http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/members-offers/223403-group-buy-fsr-petrol-tuning-system-26th-july-until-9th-aug-2014-a.html
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Yeah, I'm sure that's the case in most instances. They've got to be pragmatic.
Where you come unstuck is when VAG want copies of logs and ECU data to support a big failure. The dealer can only do so much to protect you.
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Yeah, I'm sure that's the case in most instances. They've got to be pragmatic.
Where you come unstuck is when VAG want copies of logs and ECU data to support a big failure. The dealer can only do so much to protect you.
I agree but to be fair they could have done that for the last engine not just this one and there's very few cases of that happening if any that I can remember in the 4-5 or so years ive been on these foums. Even RS3's S4's etc havnt herd of warranty been declined due to VAG seeing logs of higher boost pressures etc.
Obviously there clamping down a lot more these days so we'll just have to wait and see what happens on that front.
I don't think VAG are as keen as BMW on this front though. BMW seem to have it locked down.
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Things have moved on since the mk5/6 platform though...
The ECU flash counter was relatively easy to get around on the previous generation stuff and with a mod friendly dealer things could be hushed up should it all go pear shaped, as the MQB platform uses a completely different diagnostic protocol to the mk5/6 (ODIS rather than VAS/VCDS) and the TD1 flag is not even visible at dealer level, logs on the VWAG database to be brought back up should you turn up at the dealers with your engine in a binbag etc...
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It'd be as foolish as thinking you can hide your "left handed surfing" by clearing your browser history. :laugh:
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Lots of failures: http://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/266114-18tsi-and-20tsi-engine-failures/
Time will tell whether Gen 3 and the 7 have the same issues.
There are a lot of EA888 Engines (quote APR):
Gen 1 Trans Version 1 - Bosch HPFP (US A3 platform vehicles)
Gen 1 Trans Version 2 - Hitachi HPFP (ROW A3 Platform Vehicles)
Gen 2 Trans Version 3 - Hitachi HPFP, No primary oxygen sensor (ROW Cheap A3 platform vehicles)
Gen 2 Trans Version 1 - Hitachi HPFP, Valve Lift, No MAF (New TT's only)
Gen 2 Long Version 1 - Hitachi HPFP, Valve Lift (A4 Platform Vehicles)
Gen 2 Long Version 2 - Hitachi HPFP, E85 Sensor, Metal Intake Manifold with 5th injector (Some new A4 platform vehicles)
There are differences between all of these engines too, including some depending on model year such as compression, pistons, rods, etc.
Gen 3:
All get the new head integrated manifold. Different designs depending on model.
All have no MAF.
Transverse and Longitudinal designs.
Bosch vs Hitachi HPFP.
Turbo exits on driver or passenger side.
Several different turbos depending on model.
Different Intake Manifolds.
Direct Injection and Direct Injection with Port Injection too.
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The MQB engine is vast improvement to the Mk6 2.0T though.
I'd imagine VAG will have addressed the flaws
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The MQB engine is vast improvement to the Mk6 2.0T though.
I'd imagine VAG will have addressed the flaws
Apart from what's mentioned in this thread, what other improvements have they made?
Would be great to know how strong each block is too :jumping:
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Apart from what's mentioned in this thread, what other improvements have they made?
Would be great to know how strong each block is too :jumping:
Im not sure 100% on the changes but the Mk6 2.0 TSI coulD only just hits 300 hp with a TBE, intake and intercooler upgrade. The new model hits 310hp with stock hardware. That must be some substantial changes! Especially considering the improvement in economy and emissions
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Variable exhaust cam timing.
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So better cooling, flow and certainly a bigger turbo (must be similar size to a K04).
The injector in the inlet should solve the dirty valve problem too.
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Just found this
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3905/14796081942_4e55e67a05_c.jpg)
Edit
name="Evan@APR" post="3878515" timestamp="1406835768"]Quite a few customers have now. I haven't seen any here, but here are dynographs of this software performing around the world.
South Africa 95RON:
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3852/14609912817_76810561d9_b.jpg)
Israel:
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3889/14609729550_f752de42ac_c.jpg]http://Scotland:
[img width=786 height=589]https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3905/14796081942_4e55e67a05_c.jpg)
Arizona, USA (91 Octane/95RON, 100*F)
(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2922/14796082022_ba3715d885_b.jpg)
Germany (98 RON):
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3926/14796431535_e0066c6d4e_b.jpg)