MK5 Golf GTI

All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: SteveyD on October 29, 2009, 06:01:39 pm

Title: Bioethanol vpower moonshine (moved thread)
Post by: SteveyD on October 29, 2009, 06:01:39 pm
Hi all, apologies in advance because I did origionally post this topic in the tech section...

I'm fortunate to live 10 mins away from one of the few morrisons pumps in the uk currently selling bioethanol.  As you may know this stuff has a stupidly high octane rating of about 107 (it's also a greener fuel some say, although production has a big carbon footprint).  Some cheap unleaded fuels already contain 5% bio to make them cheaper etc, the vw handbook suggests that there engines are perfectly safe to run on a 5% mix.

I can't take credit for this because it was actually beddies find but here's the idea..

Currently the bio on sale is 85% bioethanol 15% petrol, I think 106 ron.  So with some clever mathmatics I work out a mix ratio that is equal to 85% petrol (vpower 99 ron), and 15% bioethanol (factoring in that it's already only 85% pure) giving me a fuel with a guessed ron factor between 101-105 whilst still keeping the mixture to engine friendly levels.

I know that a lot of people on scooby.net are actually having remaps written for this.

I'm doing a track day on Saturday and this could be a perfect easy increase of bhp, but I'm also aware this if done wrong could be fatal, I know a bloke who worked on the new bently engine and getting it to run on bio meant pretty much a brand new engine design.

I'd love any ideas, thoughts, experience, advice on this one guys do please let me know your thoughts on my "moonshine".

Oh and failing that, does anyone use the nos 7 point octane boost from halfords (not road legal and £20 per full tank)

steve
Title: Re: Bioethanol vpower moonshine (moved thread)
Post by: Hurdy on October 29, 2009, 07:23:55 pm
Sounds like it could be possible......try it and if it works let us know!.......if not let us know :evilgrin:.....I love a guinea pig, so take one for the team Steve :signLOL:

Seriously though, I'd rather try octane booster over a couple of tanks for adaptation and then go racing. I am currently awaiting some 4 point octane booster and then I'm going to try the 999 setting on REVO stage 2+ again on the same dyno that I ran on last week to see if it does make a difference. I'll also try and get some logs done at the same time :happy2:
Title: Re: Bioethanol vpower moonshine (moved thread)
Post by: SteveyD on October 29, 2009, 08:23:21 pm
This weekend I did actually try this out, I ended up putting 4.77 litres into my tank and the results were smoother acceleration and an increase in throttle response, I'm currently only running stage1 but I did notice a difference.  Tonight I have filled up with optimax as usual and even my girlfriend had noticed the difference, the power gains seem to be more noticable at higher revs/speeds.

So in a nutshell I think it works, well thats obvious given the ron rating of bio but how safe it is to run this full time seems somewhat of a black art.  After spending hours on google I am drawing blanks to any answers.  Of course vw will say it's a no no.... But is it? 

Tomorrow I'm trying the £20 nos 6 octane boost but I'm not expecting much.
Title: Re: Bioethanol vpower moonshine (moved thread)
Post by: Top Cat on October 29, 2009, 08:27:53 pm
What Ron rating is the fuel station right next to the ring.  :smiley:

I say this as when we where there earlier in the year SteveP was using fuel that fast, that he only just made it to this station. I think it was 103 or 105 ( could be wrong ) but there was a definate performance hike almost straight away we were both pretty shocked.  :happy2:
Title: Re: Bioethanol vpower moonshine (moved thread)
Post by: Blade on October 29, 2009, 08:36:34 pm
Anyone got a link showing where you can find this fuel?
Title: Re: Bioethanol vpower moonshine (moved thread)
Post by: chungster on October 29, 2009, 08:40:39 pm
Hurdy....you can't run the 999 setting on REVO surely...as thats max boost / max advanced timing / LEANEST FUEL setting!

 :surprised:

that can only end up in a BIG BANG scenario!
Title: Re: Bioethanol vpower moonshine (moved thread)
Post by: Hurdy on October 29, 2009, 10:27:52 pm
Hurdy....you can't run the 999 setting on REVO surely...as thats max boost / max advanced timing / LEANEST FUEL setting!

 :surprised:

that can only end up in a BIG BANG scenario!

I'm currently running Boost 9 timing 6 and fuelling 9. The dyno's I've been on over the last few weeks show that the AFR is still between 11 and 11.5 and so still relatively rich. All I'll need to do is set the timing from 6 to 9 for the race fuel setting to match the 103ron I should be getting from the octane booster and get some logs to see how it is running.

I was talking to DomT earlier today and his appears to be running slightly leaner than mine even though his fuel setting is set lower than 9. This could either be down to the fuel pump difference (I am running Autotech and Dom APR) or possibly a slight difference in cam lobe wear. Either way it means fuel setting 9 is basically standard for me. :smiley:
Title: Re: Bioethanol vpower moonshine (moved thread)
Post by: SteveyD on October 30, 2009, 06:42:59 am
What Ron rating is the fuel station right next to the ring.  :smiley:

I say this as when we where there earlier in the year SteveP was using fuel that fast, that he only just made it to this station. I think it was 103 or 105 ( could be wrong ) but there was a definate performance hike almost straight away we were both pretty shocked.  :happy2:

the petrol station next to the ring (with all the model cars inside) only sells 98, there is a station in adenau that sells 100 I'm sure (it could well be 99 though) just before the motorway exit point for the ring the sell shell racing 100... Why oh why can't they sell that to us Brits?
Title: Re: Bioethanol vpower moonshine (moved thread)
Post by: SteveyD on October 30, 2009, 06:45:39 am
Anyone got a link showing where you can find this fuel?
http://www.morrisons.co.uk/Store-finder/About-customer-services/Store-services/Petrol-stations/Locations-with-E85/ (http://www.morrisons.co.uk/Store-finder/About-customer-services/Store-services/Petrol-stations/Locations-with-E85/)
Title: Re: Bioethanol vpower moonshine (moved thread)
Post by: SteveyD on October 30, 2009, 06:49:19 am
By the way what are the genuine (if any) long term negative effects of running even a small amount of bio?

After all it's the fuel of the btcc and surely seat couldn't re-design the 2.0t due to regulations etc?
Title: Re: Bioethanol vpower moonshine (moved thread)
Post by: SteveP on October 30, 2009, 08:05:02 am
What Ron rating is the fuel station right next to the ring.  :smiley:

I say this as when we where there earlier in the year SteveP was using fuel that fast, that he only just made it to this station. I think it was 103 or 105 ( could be wrong ) but there was a definate performance hike almost straight away we were both pretty shocked.  :happy2:

the petrol station next to the ring (with all the model cars inside) only sells 98, there is a station in adenau that sells 100 I'm sure (it could well be 99 though) just before the motorway exit point for the ring the sell shell racing 100... Why oh why can't they sell that to us Brits?

The one TC is talking about is Ultimate 100, it's the station near the half lap entrance to the ring  :happy2:

On this I could dial in Revo timing 7 with very very low correction factors.
Title: Re: Bioethanol vpower moonshine (moved thread)
Post by: tony_danza on October 30, 2009, 10:17:32 am
Stevey, Tom said their V8 basically ate anything rubber when running on the stuff, so they completely re-designed the fuel system from tank forwards and re-built the engine to run on it. I'll get the full info from him, obviously trimmed down as he'll go into engineer mode and I'll get lost!! Lotus has done likewise.

Your theory is sound, Tesco99 is normal unleaded with 5% E85 to bring the octane up. That still comes into BS I believe. Morrisons are sticking even more in theirs and have lost their BS... so there's some headroom.

I reckon a 5% VPower/E85 mix has got to be safe and it'll bring it up a couple of octanes. You know who used to put a heavy mix of Toluene in the R32 and that's still running fine... that thing was frightening on the stuff!

Title: Re: Bioethanol vpower moonshine (moved thread)
Post by: MancBen on October 30, 2009, 11:31:26 am
To quote..... "BioEthanol can only be used in flex-fuel vehicles including the Saab 9-5 BioPower and the Ford Focus FFV"
Title: Re: Bioethanol vpower moonshine (moved thread)
Post by: tony_danza on October 30, 2009, 01:53:54 pm
That's the pure stuff from the pump, Ben. Very nasty
Title: Re: Bioethanol vpower moonshine (moved thread)
Post by: MancBen on October 30, 2009, 04:01:17 pm
That's the pure stuff from the pump, Ben. Very nasty

Ah right, I see now - he's looking to blend it.

Some cheap unleaded fuels already contain 5% bio to make them cheaper etc  ...  This is not the case, fuels contain bio due to gov't regulations enforcing the use of 5% sustainable, renewable, components. The bio part actaully cost more to produce than the petrol part, but due to incentives this is currently negated. This incentive gets scrapped next year, so don't be suprised when petrol goes up accordingly.

Tony - E'85' refers to the % of Ethanol in the blend.. ie you can't have 5% Ethanol in an E85 blend... that would be E5.

... sorry for being a pedant. but this stuff is my job  :happy2:
Title: Re: Bioethanol vpower moonshine (moved thread)
Post by: SteveyD on October 30, 2009, 08:22:21 pm
Yeah Ben we already know all of that lol......... re-read my origional post  :happy2:

so lets re-cap with this whole topic, in a nutshell im taking into consideration the fact that bio is only 85% pure to start with, so with the vpower and the 15 unleaded i need to get 10-15% of the total mix of all 3 fules to be ethanol, safely increasing the RON of the fuel.

I have just put 4 litres of bioethanol into a nearly full tank of vpower and within 2 miles of driving the difference was amazing!, throttle response and acceleration definately increased A LOT.

so now all that is left to do is crunch some numbers and get this a bit more accurate, at the moment im being very cautious (and guessing at that) with the mix ratio so for tomorrows track day I want to be a lot more accurate and have bought measuring jugs etc to allow me to do so.

Watch this space....................................................................
Title: Re: Bioethanol vpower moonshine (moved thread)
Post by: SteveyD on November 03, 2009, 10:24:44 pm
*UPDATE*

Ok so I ran this mix all day on Saturday at my trackday, it goes without saying the car weas driven as hard as it ever could be and with absoulutly no ill effects.  It offered a clear gain in power, more noticible at the higher end of the rev range.  Tony Danza also shared the welth and commented on its success.

To approx 50l of Vpower im adding 7l of bio, Vpower goes in first followed by 7 1litre jugs of bio...simples.

In total im guessing I have put some 300-350litres of this mix through my engine, im not going to do it day in day out because logisticly its a pain in the arse, I am however always going to be rocking a bio mix during any playtime outings so of you bump into me you have been warned  :signLOL:

Title: Re: Bioethanol vpower moonshine (moved thread)
Post by: Pummy on November 05, 2009, 10:10:54 am
If the detrimental effect of these is where the rubber deteriorates, would a conversion to be able to run this not be possible? Are surely we are talking about fuel tank coatings, lines, pumps seals all being changed to a different material to be resistant to it?  This is assuming you want to run full on ethanol at times.

Nice thoughts however, a little bit of low cost moonshine would be good.  I know a few of my local scoob boys run meth to bump up the RON, but they are mapped for it and swapping over to normal in a pinch, is not easy for them.
Title: Re: Bioethanol vpower moonshine (moved thread)
Post by: cuprak1 on November 05, 2009, 02:11:13 pm
Well done for being brave enough to try  :congrats:

sounds like a winner nice one mate
Title: Re: Bioethanol vpower moonshine (moved thread)
Post by: KRL on November 05, 2009, 03:25:23 pm
Hurdy....you can't run the 999 setting on REVO surely...as thats max boost / max advanced timing / LEANEST FUEL setting!

 :surprised:

that can only end up in a BIG BANG scenario!

I'm currently running Boost 9 timing 6 and fuelling 9. The dyno's I've been on over the last few weeks show that the AFR is still between 11 and 11.5 and so still relatively rich. All I'll need to do is set the timing from 6 to 9 for the race fuel setting to match the 103ron I should be getting from the octane booster and get some logs to see how it is running.

I was talking to DomT earlier today and his appears to be running slightly leaner than mine even though his fuel setting is set lower than 9. This could either be down to the fuel pump difference (I am running Autotech and Dom APR) or possibly a slight difference in cam lobe wear. Either way it means fuel setting 9 is basically standard for me. :smiley:
Hi Guys,my fuelling is set at 6 and my AFR is consistently 11.9 - 12.1 on WOT. So when Hurdy says slightly learner it is very slightly. Be interesting to see the results, though it does take a tank to see full adaptation IIRC.

Dom

There are a number of factors that can affect the AFR which you are running - protection mapping and air intake being a couple.  Which intakes are you both running and what kind gs are you seeing with them?
Title: Re: Bioethanol vpower moonshine (moved thread)
Post by: SteveyD on November 05, 2009, 10:16:30 pm
Well done for being brave enough to try  :congrats:

sounds like a winner nice one mate

very long pm reply sent matey.

I wish I could get some kind of trophy for my brave actions but to be honest its only using the same theory that Tesco follow to make cheap 99RON.  Hence the reason you should only do this on Vpower.  Besides I did have a contingency plan involving tank draining and 20L of Vpower before calling VW assist lol.
Title: Re: Bioethanol vpower moonshine (moved thread)
Post by: Hurdy on November 05, 2009, 10:43:49 pm
Hurdy....you can't run the 999 setting on REVO surely...as thats max boost / max advanced timing / LEANEST FUEL setting!

 :surprised:

that can only end up in a BIG BANG scenario!

I'm currently running Boost 9 timing 6 and fuelling 9. The dyno's I've been on over the last few weeks show that the AFR is still between 11 and 11.5 and so still relatively rich. All I'll need to do is set the timing from 6 to 9 for the race fuel setting to match the 103ron I should be getting from the octane booster and get some logs to see how it is running.

I was talking to DomT earlier today and his appears to be running slightly leaner than mine even though his fuel setting is set lower than 9. This could either be down to the fuel pump difference (I am running Autotech and Dom APR) or possibly a slight difference in cam lobe wear. Either way it means fuel setting 9 is basically standard for me. :smiley:
Hi Guys,my fuelling is set at 6 and my AFR is consistently 11.9 - 12.1 on WOT. So when Hurdy says slightly learner it is very slightly. Be interesting to see the results, though it does take a tank to see full adaptation IIRC.

Dom

There are a number of factors that can affect the AFR which you are running - protection mapping and air intake being a couple.  Which intakes are you both running and what kind gs are you seeing with them?

We are both on EVOM's intakes, mine with a dry filter and Dom's with an oiled one.
Had a little chat about this with Dom the other day and his is pulling 272g/s at 6400rpm and it was still climbing (he has DSG like me). I asked him to project it out to around 6900rpm and it should go to around 285g/s. My car does go out this far (GIAC DSG remap), but I haven't pulled any logs since fitting the EVOMs and GIAC.
Title: Re: Bioethanol vpower moonshine (moved thread)
Post by: KRL on November 06, 2009, 09:18:22 am
^
Ok did not realise you both have the same intake  :smiley:

With a fuel setting of 9 Hurdy I would expect your AFR to be leaner than 11 - 11.5 at the redline.  Therefore I'm guessing there might be some protection mapping taking place.  This is where the ECU changes the fueling during a WOT run because it detects that EGTs are getting a little to high so it increases the the fueling to lower the EGTs.  Its nothing to worry about, just a nice safety feature of the ECU and possibly an indication that you should lower your fuel setting a little to richen up the AFR mixture.

An AFR curve when protection mapping is taking place would look something like this:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fx264%2Fbcze1%2Flog.jpg&hash=4d2e1756821cb3ae5fde1ba4a3a76906b957e150)

Notice how the AFR richens up at at 3800 rpm, you can also see EGTs dropping at this point.  Try logging this yourself with block 31 for AFR and block 112 for exhaust temps.

After you've logged this and can confirm if protection mapping is taking place then I would suggest lowering the fuel setting.  Actually richening the the AFR will bring you other benefits as well as it should allow you to advance timing more as timing pull will be reduced with a richer afr.